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Hi! Welcome back!
>We have tried many different things and he just keeps repeating this behavior.>
Was the behavior the running off and visiting, then the avoidance of going back to where the crate area was?
>The only thing that has worked is me going to get him. And you can tell by my body language that I am very frustrated as I’m so over this happening. >
Yes… but he will avoid more if being grabbed & moved like that is part of going to get him.
There were 2 things I see happening here –
the search cookies were not a really valuable transition aid, compared to the value of the things in the environment. What type of treats were they? Using much higher value treats might help, along with making it more of a pattern game where you are fully engaged.there is some avoidance behavior too, manifesting as visiting. He was avoiding the area where the crates were – was it avoiding going to that area? Or avoiding going in his crate, if that is where it was? Or avoiding starting another rep? I don’t know enough about the situation to answer that, but he definitely started visiting when he got close enough to realize you were heading there.
To help fix the avoidance behavior, you can also clean up the loop: after the reward for each rep (dog walk, in this case), you can reward him from you again then cue him to got on a station (cot, Klimb, etc). Then you go reset to where you want to start the next rep. Then release him from the station. Someone else can help reward him on the station, to build the value of staying there. But that creates a cleaner, high value loop in your training without him wanting to leave to visit, or avoid the crate area.
Also, what was his rate of success on the dog walk (and in general, in classes). With distractions easily accessible, the rate of success needs to be really high with great rewards. Nothing that comes out the MM is that valuable, which is why another reward from you after the MM reward can help too. And rewards on the station will really help as well.
Working simpler things (like shaping or wrapping cones) with high value rewards when other people & dogs are around will also help him ignore them! The dog walk is not simple and there is a big transition back to the start area, with plenty of opportunity for the environment to become the most interesting thing out there.
let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hello!
ye, you can absolutely ask questions in this thread, and you can upgrade if you like too. And if there is a video that really needs to be seen, we can look at it in the training chats on zoom! Have fun!Tracy
Hi and welcome! We will totally be working on her ring stress – and be sure to check out the free webinar too, that has plenty of tools.
Tracy
Hi!
>While this does make sense, once you’ve trained it well enough, is it reasonable to expect the dog to use the verbal (for a threadle in particular) even if your body isn’t perfect? >
In theory, yes! In reality? Not so much 😂 If the body is roughly right and supports the well-trained verbal, then the dog can get it. But if the physical cues conflict with the verbal? The dogs don’t get it 99% of the time. So we need to figure out physical cues that support the verbal.
>Unfortunately, I have some pretty bad SI joint issues and can’t always get more rotation in my lower spine without a lot of pain.
Thanks for letting me know! Now we brainstorm what makes sense as a physical cue without causing you pain and also without needing more rotation in your lower spine. That could mean a high outside arm for a threadle slice, or a shoulder dip rather than an arm swing. We have lots of options and can see which works best for you!!
T
Hi! The courses went well!!
Course 1:
Opening went really well
When she gets on the line 4-5, be moving toward 6 to do the BC on 6 as she is lifting off for 5. It was late at :10 & 1:30 & 2:41, and she ticked the bar at :10.
Fc there at :28 worked well too!
Looking at the backside before the poles – 2 things are happening there:
– there is a bit of an incomplete understanding of the backside verbal (if that is what you were saying to her, it was hard to hear). She seems to understand that it is go to the other side (based on the line) but not the part about ‘then jump the jump’ So isolate the backsides and when you give the backside verbal, always throw the toy to the landing spot before she makes any decision about it – that will get things more automatic and you won’t risk more failure or have to handle it precisely
– Specifically to this context: you were stationary, then accelerated with your shoulder closed. That is what cued her to layer it at :32 as compare to :14 & :42 & :52 where you decelerated and turned. So to be able to stay in motion and show the weave entry here, you will need to serp that jump (arm back, open shoulders to the bar) and drop the reward in on the landing side as she arrives at the backside.
>I suspect that was our biggest issue with getting the weave entry. >
Yes, moving through the backside was the challenge for getting the weave entry – being able to serp the backside jump is the best way to set the line to the weaves.
You were trying to get in closer to it to get her to take it by decelerating & turning (1:58, 2:16, 2:49) but that pulled her off the line to the weaves. And turning your your feet towards her at 1:34 pulled her off the line. So working the serp of the backside so you can move through it will really help with the weave entries.
>think the weave exit was exactly what you said with having to support her all the way to the end. She also doesn’t have a lot of experience with a switch, so that didn’t help us.>
The tight turn on the switch needs to be decelerated to get her to do it, and I recommend 2 hands for it to flip her away (rather than try to use motion or stepping behind her line). So as she is exiting, get her to focus on your hands as you decelerate, then as she is almost arriving at your hands, so a slow and low turn away motion to help her flip away.
Being able to switch away smoothly will allow you to get to the 13 backside more easily.
13-end looked really strong! To help with the bar at 21, you can converge very strongly towards 22 and even use an outside arm to turn her to it.
Course 2:
>I didn’t include it in the video, but she was positive that the first jump was a backside, lol. I was not facing the backside line AT ALL and didn’t have any weird arm things going on.>
It might have had something to do with where she was lined up, or how you were pressuring the line (proximity, for example). Those are almost always the reasons they take the back instead of the front on these.
>I cut out the 5-8 loop. I suspect even with the right numbers I would have struggled getting the blind before “5” (supposed to be 9). I>
Oops, no worries, I thought maybe it was an attempted blind to threadle wrap?
>I also had a hard time supporting her line for the backside at 12.>
What was happening here was that she doesn’t really understand to stay on the parallel path on that line: she curls in at you unless you are up there ahead of her to really converge like you did at 1:28. So you can isolate that section and work it to show the difference between stays on the parallel path versus coming in on the line only when cued. You can move the jump over so it is easier to stay on the parallel path to the backside and hard to curl in to the front side, so she can get lots of rewards for the parallel path line to the backside.
One reason she might curl in is that you read her with the toy in front of you, so shift the placement of the reward out to the line: when she gets the backside, throw it to the landing spot (and miles from you :))
She was lovely about staying in the weaves as you layered! You needed something stronger for the jump after the weaves, like a side change to get her to turn left or a threadle cue.
At :56 & 1:46 you were calling her and said jump but showing nothing else, so she took the front of the jump.At 2:06 you did a close cue into a RC – is close your threadle slice or threadle wrap? She did turn left but she had a question – so the left turn there would be a threadle wrap, and deceleration will help that too and the low hands for the threadle wrap too.
>f you think Kat could do both of them, I will keep both spots.>
She can do both of them, and we can work more on parallel path understanding!
Great job here :)
Tracy
Hi!
>Forgot to try it bringing up my outside arm, I do think that might make it a little easier, but it also might flip him away? >
The outside arm up pretty high and pointing to the wing of where you want him to go should shift him out to stay on the line but shouldn’t turn him away. The flip away arm cues are lower and have more of a ‘stirring the cauldron’ motion 🙂
On the video:
He is already figuring out that there is an obstacle on the other side of the weaves, so the exposure to it really helps – you were a little too far ahead 1-2 so had to decelerate, and he still got it.
Getting too far ahead 1-2 then having to decel almost sent him off course when you started moving up the line (:07). Sending to 1 and moving away immediately was what was getting you too far ahead. You can lead out to 1 and release to it, and move when he is arriving at 1.
The line was better the 2nd time when you got closer to 2 so you could accelerate to 3 more, then decelerate into the weave entry. You did this really well on the last run too 🙂 You got a little past 2 on the 3rd & 4th runs and that push him a little wide of the line (he looked at you there).
One small blooper after the weaves: be sure to stay connected on the exit of 4 so he gets 5 (:30)
>Totally missed the difference in the dog’s line from the weaves to the 2 jumps to the backside in this sequence from the line of 1, 2, 3 in the Sequence 1. This sequence really set the line to the backside of the second jump >
Yes, sneaky little line there LOL!! He was a good boy! It is a common challenge on course – potential line to the backside. You gave him a little threadle at 1:12 & 1:32 and it worked well! Since he knows his backsides really well, it is something to look for when you walk courses: is there a spot where he might potentially stay on a line to the backside?
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
>Any suggestions for working on the “there will be an obstacle on that line eventually part”? >
I think more exposure in sequences and thrown rewards will get him happily looking for obstacles “out there” and trusting there will be one, eventually 🙂 You can start with the obstacle closer and a little more visible, then keep moving it further and further away.
>Thought about a threadle wrap…… I had to take this down today but I’m pretty sure that sometime in the future it’s going to come back out so I can play with it some more >
And also, threadle wraps will be coming out to play more in coming weeks, so you won’t be missing out on threadle wrap opportunities 🙂
>I actually did try it with a spin, but it seemed like it tightened him so much that I had to kcik him back out to get the weaves which is why I gave it a try with the Post Turn. I think I still have that on video, I’ll have to see if I can find it.>
If you have it, we can time it and let the clock make the final decision 🙂
T
Hi! The pop outs are looking really strong! Some handling suggestions for you, mainly based on what is fastest 🙂
The first sequence went well!
>I did sequence 1 three different ways on jump 4. >
It is fun to try different options – I timed them!
The first way was the fastest way, with the nice blind cross on the landing side of 4.
Using brake arms (both arms to cue 5) or even a spin on 5 will get it even faster – the post turn sends him wide.
The RC 4-5 on the 2nd run was smooth, but when I timed the difference it was slower than the BC there.
The BC on the takeoff side of 4 was super nice 3-4 but ended up being the slowest option – possibly because the turn on 5 was very wide so brake arms or a spin would tighten that up too.
Sequence 2:
Yes, the BC was a little late because you got a little too close to the tunnel
Good job with that snooker move to get the 7 jump all the way across the ring, and the spin! That got the line really well!
The RC was smooth 4-5 but slower here too, possibly because you were pushing in to the tunnel which widens the turn on 5. You can play with layering the 4 jump so send him to 6, which gets you to 7 sooner too!
Seq 3 went really well! Good handling choices! Be sure to watch where the #1 jump is on the map, it is on the other side so he jumps away from the course (looks like he jumped towards the court on 1 here). Once you get to 6, no need to keep an arm up as you drive the 7-8-9 line. You can pop your arms to run, stay connected and show the line with motion.
Pop out 4
Doing the backside at 2 as a threadle wrap at 2:00 was a little slower than a slice would be, plus it set up the RC on the #3 tunnel which made the blind at 2:07 lateThe rest looked really good – fast and connected!!
Pop out 5: you did the slice here on 2 and it worked really well! And the ret of this one looked fast & connected too 🙂
Pop out 6 – you did a pull to a threadle wrap on 4 and it was smooth… but a push to the far side of 4 so he can slice is probably going to be faster 🙂
The rest was good here too! Fast and connected as well. You were really driving the lines and he really flies when you do that.
Great job!
Tracy
Hi! The double whammys went well!
Lift –
The opening with the RC on 3 went well but I don’t think she was driving hard into the rear cross – you can psh to the backside and blind! Or lead out to a threadle slice and send to 3.
>Way late on the threadle at 5 and I think my shoulders were pointed to the front of the jump (whoops). >
For the TW on 5 – the thing that was late was getting her attention after the tunnel. Definitely add in calling her before she enters the tunnel so she is locked onto you when she exits. The line on your first run could be a little more rotated away from the jump and parallel to her desired line (you pushed back to the jump the tiniest bit) but mainly it is about getting her looking for you on the tunnel exit.
Your line into the TW was much clearer at :41 & 1:04! At 1:25 she had a question, it looks like your threadle hands were a little hidden and you were further from the TW jump and moving, so she was not sure where to be.
>And as I was going to 8 I was thinking “you should be more connected with her” and right on cue the kangaroo comes out. LOL.>
Yes, the Rc on the flat there needed more connection and decel, starting sooner.
Good job continuing! She recovered quickly!The BC between 6-7 works but puts her on a hard slice to 8 so when you pushed into her line, it ended up pushing her off the jump so she was confused and mad.
The lap turn was a little late getting into it but then yes, was caused the question was when you tried to flip to the jump too early: she needs to get almost to your hand before you step back and start the turn.
I think the best option for her is a blind on the landing side of 7! I think you can get there pretty easily 🙂 Then do another blind to get her to 10, rather than the TW there (for now, eventually the TWs will be easier to show).
Kaladin:
>I thought the lead out to a blind and threadle slice would be good for him at the opening but I waited too long to move forward so he had a valid question on whether we were really going to 3.>
BC to threadle slice on 2 actually turned him too tight! You can play with leaving sooner, or pushing to the backside then doing the blind on the landing side, that might set the best line for him.
For the TW – he knows these really well! Try not to step back towards the TW jump when sending him – he got it, but that is why Lift went back to the front. Kaladin doesn’t need that extra step (you didn’t do it at :37 and he still did a great TW) so you can take it out and then you won’t also do it with Lift 🙂
Doing the BC on the takeoff side of 7 then pushing to 8 worked well for him but maybe a wider line then the blind on the landing side – it would be fun to time the difference!
The BC on takeoff side of 9 was great! That set up the push to 10 really well 🙂
Sequence 1: The threadle on 3 worked better on the 2nd part of the run, when you didn’t decel or pull back – you just flew through it during the double whammy section 🙂
That will also get more send to the tunnel so you can get to 6 more easily.First time through, you turned him right on 7 and 2nd time through you turned him left – I timed the difference from landing of 6 to entry of the 8/17 tunnel and the left turn was faster 🙂
>I thought about doing a turn on the flat to take 1 wrapping back to the left, but decided to wrap to the right since that kept him in extension longer going back to 1>
Turning right on the 1 jump to get back into the sequence was more extension on 1 but then a lot more yardage and a hard push back to 2. You can get a blind in to get him on your right side so he turns left there – that will be faster for sure, as long as the shed & shrubs don’t block your line 🙂
Thinking about Lift’s jumping on that long line:
>in both cases it is a long extension line of tunnel to jumps with jumps at varying distances. >
If I have it right in my head, they were both at Fusion? Footing can absolutely play a role in it: matting versus flat turf versus turf with infill versus grass. Matting and flat turfs don’t allow for the same grip into takeoffs as infill turf and grass do, so we see more of those big tumbles on mats and flat turfs.
That probably means on the big lines on the harder footing, you will want to stay closer to the line and not run as fast – your acceleration asks for more extension, but the footing might not permit it.
>It probably won’t happen this week when it’s supposed to be in the 90s all week, but I think I can fit in a similiar tunnel to jumps line in my yard if I go diagonally across the yard. I want to see how she does that on grass starting with me moving less and building up to sprinting with her.>
You can test it by setting it up as big as possible and sprinting on the first sequence: how does she grip the surface? That might answer questions better than building up to acceleration will!
Nice work here! Keep me posted on the big line experiment!
Tracy
Hi!
>We certainly had much better speed out of the tunnels!>
Yes! He was flying! There was more speed on the tunnel exits and more speed on the whole sequence – fantastic!
>I kept my arm back from 2-3, but I wasn’t sure if you meant I give him the 4 cue before he takes off to 3? If that is correct, I suppose because of the straight line that the cue coming a jump prior will give more understanding and speed? I did give it to him prior to 3.>The arm back from 2-3 tells him to turn over 3 and land facing 4 (which he did). That way, when he lands facing 4, you can send to 4 and start the blind before he takes off, which is what you did 🙂
The timing of that at :08 for the blind creates a turn before takeoff and an explosive drive around the wing to 5! Really nice!
And running a little closer to the line and tunnel in sequence 3 was really effective, producing speed, tight turns, and fast lines throughout.
I agree, the full course when well! Some small details and ideas for you:
For the tunnel-tunnel section of the opening, you can send to 6 from further away then run a parallel line to be able to support 7. That is what you did on run 1 and it worked well! At the very end, you had stopped and pulled away, so he read it as a turn cue.
Then you can run a little closer to the exit of 7 so you can support the line to 8 to get more acceleration.
On the 2nd run, 2:46 – looks like he thought that was a blind cross at 4-5, so to push to the jump with him on your right keep your arm back there and big connection. When you did that on the first run, he read it like a serp! On the 2nd run, you were pointing forward to 5 so he saw your shoulders turn and a little disconnection, so he thought it was a blind starting.
>Bottom of dog walk I thought it was a backside cue and then I lost him. Bottom of the A-frame, I gave him his tight turn cue and he turned the other way.>
On the first run, he was not exploding forward off the contacts – it was a little unclear after the DW with connection but also something caught his attention. And he didn’t move fast off the frame, which contributed to making it hard to get the turn to the left.
To help get him to drive off the contacts more consistently like he did on the 2nd run, you can mix in lots of rewards after the next jump so he has more value for driving forward.
On the 2nd run (2:30), you can do the BC on the jump after the dog walk a stride or two earlier, so he sees it finishing before takeoff.
When he turned the other way off the a-frame: If he turns the wrong way… keep going! It is not a fault, so it is always good to think on your feet and fix it on the fly 🙂
On other thing to consider: at jump 13 at 1:33 and 2:34, which is the jump before the a-frame: I think a reverse spin (a FC/BC combo) will get a tighter turn than the post turn there. And it gets you turned the next line sooner too 🙂 The post turn caused him to ask a question about if it was the frame or the jump near it, so he was a little wide.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
