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Good morning!
Good morning!
>The pointing arm is something I’ve done for a long time so trying to break the habit can be challenging. >
I can totally relate! I broke the habit by running with an open bottle of water in my hand over and over and over 🙂 That combined with making sure I look at the dog’s eyes made a massive difference in re-training my handling 🙂
He also gives great feedback about pointing versus connection. He is used to check in at tunnel exits and if you are pointing, he needs to process the line on the send to drive ahead (as you can see on the first couple of reps) – and he doesn’t send as fast on those.
When you have clear connection – there is still a bit of checking in (because he is used to doing it) but then he looks forward sooner AND goes faster 🙂
And when you give him a big GO before he enters the tunnel to help him drive straight on the exit: that GO plus connection means he doesn’t have to look at you or slow down at all (like at 1:16). SUPER!!! So definitely add the verbals before he enters the tunnel, it really helps him.
I grabbed some screenshots so you can see the difference:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1xKdc_KpYDA_u5_k2n4j97Pq257IzFhxfA4QWw0k5iWQ/edit?usp=sharingHe found the line after the send really well! That lead to the front of the jump and push to backside being easy. The threadle wraps at 1:11 & 1:23 were lovely – it is great how different the verbal cue sounds too. For the balance rep, he turned well but you can also call him right before he enters the tunnel so he knows for sure that you want the turn and he doesn’t have to check in and look at you.
>Last clip jump, tunnel, jump and I went right in with him. I suppose eventually I should be able to send him and stay behind the two jumps.>
Yes, and I think he can do it – you were focusing more on connection and not on distance, so that was fine to go in there.
>The one thing I noticed when I had the pointing arm is I did send him from further back. >
Moving forward more when you were focusing on the connection is probably because your brain was all about the connection 🙂 No worries! Being able to send with connection will get easier – yo can use a soft, low hand that follows his nose and he will still see the connection.
>I can see Rexx is capable so my homework is to trust his send and turn sooner>
Perfect! The very direct connection is very helpful for sending too, because it helps line up your shoulders to the line to support his line.
Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
>The downside of my new class is I miss the Monday calls now.>
We miss seeing you! But the value of the in-person class is very high. Let me know if you have thoughts about it or questions when you see the video. We got a little nerdy last night 🙂
>We had our second group class last night and we were able to do more. >
YAY! Sounds fantastic and he did well in the ring!
>I picked the equipment that was not on the fence between the 2 rings. >
Smart 🙂
>He had a small bit of distraction on the second side (after a class had started in the other ring) – during 2 bowl pattern- he did look away at the dog running in the other ring, but he returned to the pattern. >
This is still a big success! Looking away is no big deal – just processing 🙂 How long did he look/how long til he went back to the pattern? We can track latency.
>He also got himself into a bit of an adolescent moment. He took a jump up near a corner of the ring and the instructor was standing there. He decided to go over to her, which he really does not want to do. He sniffed then barked at her. He did recall back to me immediately and we had a big toy party. I think it was the tight space – all up in the corner that contributed to this.>
If this happened at the end of the class, it was also likely due to him being depleted at the end of a challenging class. Being super successful in the class doesn’t mean he isn’t depleted. So next time you have extra time and want to do one more thing? Don’t do it 😂. Falling into the “just one more” trap often results in these moments.
When he is on the way to investigate a person, will he recall to you *before* he gets there? And it can be a clear “get yer butt over here right now” recall when he takes the first step away to investigate. Mals appreciate the clarity of the “do this NOT that” because of how their brains process work (which is a bit different than most other breeds).
>He did recall back to me immediately and we had a big toy party. >
This is why we want to not have the behavior happen in the first place because the toy party can be a slippery slope in terms of reinforcement: what exactly is being reinforced? Are you reinforcing the recall only? Or the chain of events leading to the recall? But definitely not reinforcing NOT going to the person in the first place, which is the more ideal reinforcement in this scenario.
For example: with my half Mal (who is very Mal-like in his brain), I just say “Dude…” which is a ‘don’t do that, absolutely NO reward for that’ marker that I have used exactly twice in his 2.5 years of life 🙂 Neither was followed by a recall or cookie or toy (I went to him both times to reset the behavior) – and both were followed by another opportunity in the moment and the reward came for the “Do THIS” rather than after doing something I didn’t want to see repeated. So the undesired behavior has gone away (in his case, it was going to another dog to steal the toy out of the dog’s mouth) and is replaced with engaging with me.
>If there are specific things I can do with people, she is willing to help out.>
She can be in the picture and maybe a bit further away especially when things are quiet – quieter moments are harder! What would Judge do if she turned her back on him and walked away, if he approached her?
>Overall, very happy with how it’s going. He was able to do some stationing on his cot before his turns, spend time in the car and navigate the building.>
Yay!
> He even disengaged from 2 dogs in the earlier class who were hard staring at him while he was on his cot. >
Good for him!! That is hard!!!
>One handler was completely oblivious and the other saw her dog doing it and she redirected her dog. >
That sums up dog sports environments: some folks are oblivious, some are paying attention.
>I have my head on a swivel in these situations – he is not a dog who has a lot of tolerance for being stared at, so he did a great job last night.>
Good for you! And when it happens, you can take him out of the situation for a decompression so he can release some of that pressure before going back into the environment.
>I think I’m going to start working on having him in a soft crate too – thinking about the inevitable winter.>
You can create a Kingdom Of Judge setup where he can relax: soft crate or folding wire crate which is more solid and not too hard to carry. For example, there is one event each year where I have to crate 6 of my dogs in a crowded environment. I bought large cardboard presentation panels from the office supplies/school supplies aisle at Walmart: One goes across the top of the crate and then I hang a giant blanket over it. That way he has a safe, enclosed space and can’t pull the blanket into the crate if it is a wire crate. And I have additional panels that create a bit of a fortress especially at the front of the crate – it blocks my dog’s view of all the dogs walking by so my dog can chill. And, it prevents other dogs from coming right up to my crates. Food for thought!
Thanks for the update! Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
Thanks for your good questions last night!
>So, plan of action with Luna is to just do short sequences and reward. We do remote reinforcements in our backyard as well as in class. More successful in our backyard than in class when it comes to remote reinforcement runs.>
When thinking about Luna, a couple of ideas come to mind:
The main thing is that she might have a negative conditioned emotional response (classical conditioning) to the trial environment, so we need to unpair anything negative that creates stress, and only pair things that create positive feelings (happy feelings of success and fun fun fun :)) It will take a bit of time to turn things around but it can totally be done!
A big yes to more remote reinforcement at home and at class – but keep those sequences simpler so there are no handling bloopers or errors. Remote reinforcement is a skill (just like weave poles are a skill) so she needs to know how to do it with confidence, but also you don’t need to do it all the time. You can and should still have plenty of runs where there is super high value rewards in the ring 🙂 and a high rate of success 🙂 Maybe do a 50-50 split: 50% of the training runs use the remote reinforcement skill, and 50% of the training runs use the high quality rewards in the ring.
For trials: this is where we really will work on changing the conditioned response!
Keep working on the outside-the-ring games, as well as adding the newer games to use inside the ring: we just added Leash Off Engagement ON! And in the Launch webinar, checkout the the cookie-free pattern games and Ready-Set-Go starts.
When those games are good at home, bring them to class. When she is happy with those games at home and at class, do them with remote reinforcement at home and in class.
Then they can go to trials. But with the trials, the best way to change her conditioned response to the trial environment is to work through each stage of the NFC progression. Pretend it is her very first trial experience!
We need to sort out a ‘just like home’ way to do it. She is a foodie so I don’t think a toy will work for her at a trial. But remind me if she likes balls? We can also create a ‘bridge’ that you can bring into the ring that indicates the availability of the food reinforcement, if she isn’t into balls.
When she is able to run happy and fast doing the ‘Just Like Home’ NFC, we can move to the next stage but I think figuring out the first step will be key.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
How did the class go, overall? I really like what I saw here.
The clip at the beginning looked great – ending with the MM and then the trip to the snuffle box. He seemed super focused and engaged. The distractions were present but far enough away that they didn’t draw him.
He had lots of praise and success for his work and I was thrilled with how he stuck with you during the transition *after* the MM reward in the 2nd round too, when you did the leather strip decompression. It looks like he was indeed chewing them here?
>Not sure if how I approached this was good but it did really seem to help him allow me to get the leash back on.>
I think it went really well and set up success. If getting the leash back on is normally a big challenge, or him taking off during transitions after rewards is normally a challenge… we didn’t see any of that here. YAY!!! When he came out for his turn *after* the snuffle mat, how did he do and did he seem relaxed and engaged? Did he have another turn after the leather chewing?
Since the leather strips can get gross 😂 maybe try a bully stick as a decompression to chomp?
But overall I think he did well and looking at how he responds over a series of classes will direct us to figure out what the best options are for him.
>You mentioned seeing if he is a sight tracker rather than goal? What should I try?>
Sign trackers actually seem to get more reinforcement from the cue (or sign) to do ‘the work’ rather than from the reinforcement (cookies) itself. By training him like a ‘goal’ tracking dog (getting cookies from you) perhaps we are working against his biology, rather than with it, which would be why you both get frustrated.
Since we are not in a laboratory setting, we don’t have electrodes in his brain, and the actual experiments to see if the animal is a sign tracker versus goal tracker are a little unethical (involving aversives to some degree), we can play around and see how he responds.
It is possible that dogs consider the Manners Minder to be a sign/cue for work (not a goal, which is what we humans think it is) in terms of reinforcement. I mean, the treats in the MM are not even close to the quality of the pork you have, but yet he loves it SO MUCH. So you can keep the MM in play during sequences – he runs a simple sequence then you go to the MM as the reward (rather than throwing it from your hand). Keep it really easy at first so it is easy for you to give the cues and easy for him to process with the MM nearby.
And in sequencing, keep moving and giving the next cue, no matter what happens. He does great? Next cue! Leading to the MM or the snuffle mat or toy. Something goes wrong? Next cue! Still working and moving. And for the leash going on, give MORE work cues after it, like running back to the MM or chasing the thrown lotus ball. Cues for work and cues for movement might work better with who he is.
Let me know if that makes sense or if I need more coffee to explain it LOL 😂
Tracy
Hi!
I like that you have a treat hierarchy! Super!!
>Tier 6 is only at competitions, my dogs get meatballs after a run. They love the meatballs but I save meatballs for trials. So I didn’t have meatballs that night.>
Since thunderstorms are harder than trials for her, you can bring meatballs along to see if that helps when there is bad weather.
And when you are in an environment where she is going to possibly be afraid, you can start with the highest tier to see if you can immediately break through the fear so she can run without fear. But if she is still afraid, consider either running just simple simple stuff for highest value rewards, or not running at all so that she doesn’t experience any fear in the ring.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
>This is not the first time she has struggled doing a dig to start a course. Not sure what I’m doing wrong.>
I think it is a combination of her lineup and which way you are facing:
You can use a clean line up and stay, and line her up on a little more of a slice facing the landing spot, which presents the bar without showing the backside option.But also, when you send to the jump: connect more directly to her eyes and step directly to the jump more. At :05, :54 & 1:01 you are kind of facing away and stepping sideways to it – I think she is unsure and going to the backside to see the bigger picture of where you are turned too.
At 1:09 you were facing away even more so she came to the inside threadle wrap line (which is actually correct, based on your position 🙂 )
So when you release her, make a big connection and step to the wing you want her to take and see how she does with that cue.
She was paying good attention to the cues on the sequences!
At :14 – you looked ahead which cued her to change sides (blind cross) so the reconnection got her back on the original side.
Another spot she was paying close attention was at 1:15 – you turned away so she followed your line when you said jump. Good girl! That is a spot where you can keep going! She was correct and stopping to reset without reward is deflating. She got a treat 5 seconds later but it didn’t correlate to the sequence. That is a spot where you can take another jump or two, reward, then start over.
One thing I notice here is that I think Bella likes words, lots of words 🙂 When you got really quiet :17-:24 and 1:34 – 1:42 for example, she slowed down and looked at you a lot. Compare to :07-:10 when you were not moving a lot or not super connected but you gave her a big GO and she was fast & happy there. So add more verbals and be a little louder and more repetitive with them and see how she likes it 🙂
Looking at the bowls video:
I feel like there are always sirens or car alarms in your videos when on road trips with Chaser LOL!
She did great here, super quick responses. The next steps to this game would be to take it to dog sport environments and see how she does! You can use super high value food for that if the environment is hard, or if it is REALLY hard, super high value food plus distance away from the distractions. It might mean starting in the parking lot but that is a great place to start.Nice work here!
Tracy
Howdy!
>My brains already oozing.>
Yes, it is a brain-oozer at first but then you will see it makes perfect sense! And guess what – Border Collies and Malinois are typical breeds for being sign trackers (SHOCKING – NOT! HA!!!)
Even though my Plot Twist is only half Malinois, he appears to be a total sign tracker which is why as soon as I clearly outlined what the rules of the game are, he has made an astonishingly easy transition into the competition environment and even into competition itself, in the craziest environments.
>I’m feeling stuck in the weeds.>
Probably because most training approaches things with the assumption that dogs are goal tracking, meaning working for a reward like cookies and they need to know how/where the reward is delivered. It is entirely possible that is why Chaser finds these scenarios somewhat ‘meh’ and sometimes uncomfortable. But I have seen him when he is feeling fabulous and super responsive and super comfortable, so we just have to embrace the potential of his sign tracking self and approach things differently (especially when obedience is involved around other dogs, because he doesn’t want to go into the building at first).
>Chase had his Bella chase and Dan class today and I’m not really sure what I should be using class for to make the most of it.>
Signs & cues are now top priority as the gateway, incentive salience is the new buzz phrase for him: WANTING rather than just liking something. Goal trackers like things… I think sign trackers WANT to do things. Not quite the same! More later on that.
>Instant focus?
That is one thing to do. Switch his instant focus obstacle to something like a cone or barrel or wing (all of these have value, I believe). When it is his turn, bring him right into the ring, send him around the cone/barrel/wing…. then take off and run run run with a giant fun tug or throw a friz or any delivery that he has loved in the past.
>Tricks and tug?
Nah.
>Bella and Chase in the ring?>
Can he hang out on a station or table or something while Bella does a little agility? You can be with him of course, holding the leash. Don’t ask him to eat or anything. Can he just stand ringside?
>Pattern with bowl and toy?>
I am interested in seeing how this goes: but we can tweak the pattern since you have the ring available:
cookie in bowl – he eats it and engages.
This is where you can try two different variations and see what he does:
after he eats it and engages, tug tug tug to the next bowl. Then cookie in the bowl, repeat.Or – cookie in bowl, he eats it and engages with you. Then over a jump (or around a cone or through a tunnel, to the next bowl (can also be the original bowl), cookie in a bowl, repeat the process).
And video ALL the things so we have visuals to go with the theoreticals!
T
If you want to get a better (and nerdy) understanding of this, do a quick google of sign tracking versus goal tracking in dogs. I believe Chaser leans more to being a sign tracking dog, which is why many of the reward strategies we might use such as cookies for pattern games are kind of ‘meh’ to him, versus when he gets to move, do a thing, watch some action, etc. This is not that abnormal for a lot of working dogs that are wired to attend to things in the environment, and in many ways it can ultimately make competing *easier* not harder. It is based on classical conditioning, not operant conditioning necessarily and it is also simply part of who the dog is.
I have added more about this to tonight’s chat. It is fascinating and informative, and should help reduce the feeling of frustration you might have when the ‘normal’ things don’t work as well for our sign trackers as they do for our goal trackers.
T
Hi!
>At a trial I have gone into carrying her in as otherwise she get focused on the previous dog or does spinning and jumping up and down and frustration builds fast especially if there is a delay>
You can add carrying her in during training too – mix it in with sometimes bringing her in on leash.
>I got into the habit of picking her up in training as she hates it if I ignore her. ie if I stop to think between runs about what I am doing.>
You can find a middle ground of giving her rewards and either letting her play with a toy or let her hunt for treats in the grass.
>Although not sure she doesnt think being put away isnt punishment too. she definitely plays keep away if she thinks she is going away after a short bit. >
It depends on how you signal it. If you reward her for what she was just doing, then maybe put her on leash or gather her up – then reward again. And you can take her to an end of run jackpot before putting her away, with another reward. That can help her understand that it is a short break and not a punishment.
>The jumping up is worst when I ask for a wait staying still is something she really struggles with even when not highly aroused>
This is where you can use the cookie-free pattern game behaviors to give her an outlet for that arousal. It can be hand touches or leg weaves or spins on the way to the jump before asking for a wait.
>She seems to have learnt how to work with the toy present generally at the moment. >
Yes, she is doing really well with that!
>In the ring no toy is needed even when backsides are present and we dont get jumping and biting even when I stuff up>
It is possible that you keep going more in the ring, less stopping and trying to re-start. That is where a lot of the frustration builds from.
>She definitely understands in the ring the reward is outside in her bag and she knows where her bag is. >
Great!
>In training perhaps I need to do this more but she definitely thinks reward needs to come fast when something in training is hard or even more so if I get it wrong.>
The main thing is to not let her know that you got it wrong. Just keep going, reward something else as if it was perfect, then after that you can sort out how to fix whatever happened.
>Biting or leaping has got worse when I am asking for a wait – In training have been waiting it out largely so we dont run together until she sits and waits. >
Build in the cookie free pattern game behaviors and see if that helps.
>But definitely need to work more on not needing the toy when she gets crazy have been doing that at home where the arousal levels is slightly lower.>
You won’t need it if you never stop on course 🙂 No stopping to fix and definitely not reaching for her.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Quick clip on my second run from 10-12 doing backside blind on 11 keeping bar up.>
That looks really good! Note how you were past the jump as he was over the bar, giving him plenty of room to drive through it with speed.
> We tried keeping him on the left but wasn’t successful because he would pop the weaves if I started moving that way. >
You can add in some reps of rewards at the end of the poles when you are moving away more and more, very gradually. A thrown reward to the exit of the poles will keep him looking forward through the poles, even as you add more and more distance away from the poles.
>Would I cue the threadle slice from behind as I would a wrap and then move past the jump and turn? >
Yes, and in theory he would drive past you to do the threadle. That is a hard skill that you can break down and show it to him from being next to him, then from one step behind him, and so on so he can execute it with you behind him.
>Also, in this clip is a scenario similar to 4-5 that I did at home. Was that better handling?>
Yes! You started moving forward as he passed you. That set up the turn really well and also got you way ahead on the next line 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
>But it doesn’t translate to being comfy enough for work though.>
Fear can definitely be more powerful than food drive. What type of treats were you using? This is where we can see if different and/or higher value foods will make a difference.
Tracy
Good morning!
>I have some not-agility trials coming up, including later this week. These will be great opportunities to practice outside the ring engagement and pre-trial readiness. >
Perfect! Sounds like these will be fun opportunities for training various games 🙂
>I also sometimes attend a local agility class, and can more deliberately practice there.>
This will be useful too – even if you want only attend sometimes, it provides a good bridge between home training and trials.
>Skizzle acted a bit like he does for post-bath zoomies. I’m pretty sure the tall and wet grass led to this. >
It could totally have been the grass, if he is used to dry grass in particular! He was totally scampering about and seemed pretty happy for most of it, but also might have been avoiding the wet grass when he ran past the jump at :29 and didn’t come out of the tunnel.
Since wet grass might be something he encounters during training and trials, you can take him out when it is wet and just do tricks for treats or play with a toy. That can help him not get an ick from it LOL
The run here on the video went pretty well, especially because his brain was also processing wet grass! The opening line looked really good.
At :24 he just needed you to take one more step to the jump after he exited the tunnel.
For the tunnel discrimination – you did a FC there at :31 which turned him nicely to the correct end of the tunnel. The other option is to keep him on your left side and use your right hand to draw him past the ‘wrong’ end of the tunnel to the other side of it.
Nice work here! Let me know how he does in the dry grass or during the next wet grass event 🙂
Tracy
This is the perfect age to sort out reinforcement strategies, so you can have a bigger toolbox for his training. Other dogs and agility are notoriously unreliable as reinforcement or arousal strategies, and we are adding movement where we can.
So the next step is to grab some video of what happens when you try to get toy play in different places. That will help figure out what is happening. You can also take him new places on a long line, and do a bit of disc/frisbee tosses/rolls. And social learning can be valuable here too: have him and Ella (for example, or any dog that will tug with you) to together in different places. Play tug with the other dog, then offer him the opportunity to play tug. He won’t be restrained in a crate because that can create a lot of frustration – he can be out of leash and joining in the fun.T
Hi!
>When he first got there he didn’t want to come in>
Is this in a different location, or the new building at FF?
>I’ve progressed a little bit and I’ve used some tricks to amp him in new places like playing with Ella first. Getting him wanting to be part of the fun!>
Social support can help but mainly what you are seeing is a higher arousal state by using something more motivating & stimulating. That is why I want to use his toys more in these games and not food. Food is nice… but the arousal state and excitement we want is going to come from toys 🙂 Tug, discs, etc – we can modify any of these games to use a higher value motivator to get the same response without needing to rely on another dog as part of that.
Looking at the super bowls game:
The parking lot might have felt desolate to you but he had the distraction of heading directly towards the person holding the video, and also a car alarm going off nearby. That was loud! You might not have noticed it but he more than likely did.
Adding more motion to the bowls definitely helped – better responses in terms of speed and more engaged body language, and less distraction even with the car alarm going off.
>And that I suck timing and throwing under pressure lol!!>
Ha! Yes –
:29-:37 was not as clean about letting him look at you first (you were moving before he looked at you) but the rest looked good 🙂So the big question is: can he tug there? Even if it is with one hand and a favorite toy 🙂 Or even if it is short disc catches and tugging on it?
He did well with the instant focus overall but I just think the food is not the most powerful motivator we have in our toolbox for him. He was able to come in and go to the object, even with passing distractions and the obstacles in the ring (all of which have a lot of value) but his response was more like ‘this is fine’ and we are looking to get a ‘this is GREAT’ response.
So you can bring him in, let him offer than first engagement with the object, then surprise him by whipping out a favorite toy and playing. The toy can be on you, or pre-set in the environment but I am definitely interested in seeing how the toy can change his feelings about these games.
>Things I learn he likes when I say yes in a squeaky voice.>
This also helps make my argument about toys 🙂 Toy play often has squeaky silly voices associated with it! So… more toy toy 🙂
Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi!
He did really well here!At the beginning when you were doing it on the flat: Remember that you can start with a few more reps of the regular pattern game, to get him into the rhythm of it before disconnecting. He looked a little surprised but was able to find you really well!
He did really well when you added it to the sequence too, even better than he did on the flat! You can keep moving when you disconnect to see if he can keep finding the line. He was correct to just come to you when you stopped moving, so now we can start teaching him to save you and find a line if you are still in motion but disconnected 🙂 He is not required to save you if you disconnect, but it sure is nice if he does 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
