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Hi!
>Seems like the key for me right now is I’ve got to see that he is past me….and bigger arms are definitely clearer! >
Yes – the bigger the arm cues, the better! And also if the arms are clear, the footwork doesn’t matter as much.
I think the hand cues can be more visible to him if you show him the hand (or both hands, which make it more visible) and turn them as if turning him away in a check mark motion or a Nike swoosh motion 🙂 Let him see the hand across your body then swoosh him away – on some of the cues, you were extending the hand toward the jump but it looked like a throwback wrap cue, so he wrapped (like at :25).
At :33 and 1:25 your hand wa pointing to right turn landing spot and didn’t turn him away – then your feet pushed into backside before he passed you.
:42 (and 1:44) – the arm is pointing to right turn landing (he is looking at it) then at :43 your feet do a RC so he changes his line right before takeoff
The rep at 1:02 was more of a check mark hand cue and that was his best rep! Yay! So make the check mark arm swoosh even bigger – you can challenge yourself to not turn your feet at all, and just turn him away with your hands 🙂 The feet can turn after he turns away 🙂
Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi! This went GREAT! Maisy seemed to really like it too 🙂
Your hand/arm cues were super clear – a little late on the first rep so it looks like the bar came down. But on the runs after that, they were earlier (starting while she was in the tunnel) so they were very timely and it looks like she had no questions (and the bar stayed up!)
You can try adding even more distance away from her on this! Doing these switches from a big distance will give you a positional advantage on the next part of the course 🙂
>I think I’d call it a tandem turn? >
There are many similarities to the tandem, including the hand cues. I use the switch to only every mean layering and distance after the turn, though – and my regular tandem turn is more about turning together to the next line.
Great job here!
TracyHi!
Looking at Lift’s tunnel-weaves video:
This was a really good way to break it down for her – kind of a weave-tunnel sandwich setup LOL!
The weaves closer to the camera looked good – she drove ahead beautifully to them from the tunnel, including with you did them as a rear cross!
It was harder to see the weaves on the other side of the tree – it looked like she did think those base were weird (plus it was setup in a big sun spot, so it is possible they were hard to see). The higher profile of the round PVC might be changing her striding a little – to get to 12 poles, does anyone have a flat base you can borrow? She is very zippy on the flat base!!Kaladin was thinking hard on the weave entries!! He was generally heading to the entry then on some reps on the soft side entries, losing confidence that he was right just before entering. So, since we can to build up more speed and confidence that he just goes to the poles without you – you can do 2 things:
Open up the angle of entries a bit so they are easier to get into – you can also add a wing to the 2nd pole of the soft sided entry (it is easy to fade) so he can lock onto it.
You can also move them closer! Get them 6 feet from the tunnel so that he blasts to them. Then inch them back out… 6.5 feet, 7 feet, etc. How quickly you move them away from the tunnel will depend on how fast he goes to them. If he is running to them? Great! Move them out a little more. If he slows down, keep them where they are til he is running again.
>On the switch aways to layers: When you said closer to the jump do you mean while still keeping some lateral distance, but going further towards the take off side of the jump? >
Closer to the front side of the jump, but most ideally on the line to the wing closer to you (and opposite the switch away wing). That way you can still get a parallel line into the layering.
>but decided to wait to see the Games 5 drills to figure out where to put such a big piece of equipment so that it’s not in the way) >
You won’t need the a-frame for the drills until the dogs are really good at the foundation level of the handling game.
> (I didn’t want to have too much of running down different planks at the same time even if they were in separate sessions) >
I have never had an issue with dogs struggling with the difference between the down games on the teeter and the RDW work. They are brilliant and they have us humans really well-trained LOL!
>she doesn’t have a strong enough understanding of her front foot target at the end of the board. She was racing down the board and stopping just short of the target. (aside from the one where I had her too amped up and she careened right off the end of the board). I think I need to go back to the travel plank and refresh her front foot target before doing more teeter going down or starting the elevator game. >
Now that is a skill you can use in this week’s handling games!! You can also elevate her target a bit so she almost steps up onto it. For my 4on dogs, I also have a reward plate attached to the underside of the teeter, so when they get their feet in position, I put the cookie on the plate (it is often a spoon duct taped to stick out from the underside of the teeter haha)
>Is the wider a-frame enough of a different picture that she shouldn’t get confused with it if I go back to the downhill teeter stuff soon?>
Yes, it is different enough. And also, it helps the young dogs know the difference based on the foundation games we play. I am a big fan of training all 3 of them because the games and cues are so different. I have trained all 3 in the same session, and so far I’ve never had a dog ask a question about which was which.
>Nothing found in chiro or massage appointments, but she’s still drifting to the right for this grid. >
That was really interesting, because she did it with you on either side – she was not curling into you, she was moving to her right even when you were on her left. Did the body work people do muscle measurements to make sure everything was equally muscled? Has she had her grown up dog OFA-type xrays? On the next jump session, video her from behind so we can see what her hind end/pelvis is doing. And you can give her more room to the last jump too, so she can really open up the striding. That will be fun!
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
>In my “what was I thinking” stupidity, we had an hour ring rental this morning.>
Ha! You must have been tired!!
> Friends had lowered the frame for us last night to 4’6″ so we were able to do a few passes along with some weaves and a loop that included dog walk out of a tunnel and teeter. Ven only avoided the frame once and that was my fault, I didn’t ask him to take it. I have some video if you’d like to see it.>
4’6″ is a good start but if he avoided it even once when it was on his line… Lower it more so it is the most easy, fun thing ever 🙂 and he gets on it every time.
>I’m really stumped on how to reward contacts and weaves in the ring. Ven only plays with toys at home in the house. He will play a little tug, retrieve some toys, and catch a soft frisbee but I’ve never had any luck even transferring it to the back yard, much less a trial environment.>
Have you tired using the soft frisbee in class? or that clam toy – does he go retrieve it even if it is empty? Have you ever tried animal pelt? Currently, a raccoon pelt on a bungee is very popular in my house LOL
The other thing you can do is set up a reward station with treats outside the ring. And throw a ball or something he might interact with, which is a marker or a bridge of sorts – it might not be a primary reinforcement, but he can get it then you go run to the reward station and give him treats.This all gets developed outside of trials, like at home and class – then it can go into trials for the contacts and weaves. It is the missing link, so you’ll definitely want to figure out what he might interact with.
>I found a UKI trial a few hours away labor day weekend that includes double and triple speedstakes. There’s no mention of food box in the premium so I don’t know if they allow it or not.>
They would usually put it in the premium. But you can ask them to apply for it anyway – I know clubs that have been approved after the premium wa out, then they updated the premium I believe.
T
Hi!
>I am a little confused… so, no cue for middle jump just more extension?>
Yes – because of her size, you can just turn your shoulders and Grace will have a perfect, fast line 🙂
> [Last comp with Maisy she took off straight after the middle jump of the pinwheel so I see some danger in this] Or a different cue? I thought you used a left/right for the middle jump?>
It is tiny dog handling versus Border Collie-sized dog handling 🙂 The different stride lengths create different lines – so with my smaller dogs (30cm and under), they take multiple strides between the jumps so I just turn my shoulders and they have great lines on something like this. For the larger dogs – yes, I use left/right on the middle jump because those larger dogs will take one stride if not given a turn cue. And that is what accidentally gets the straight line like what you described with Maisy. Let me know if that makes sense!
Tracy
Good morning!
He was giving really good feedback here mainly about the line of your feet. What was happening was that the switch cues still have an element of motion towards the front of the jump. When you did that, plus the upper body/arm cues? He got it really well! You can see that at :59 (the paced reward did not create the behavior, it was your feet facing and moving towards the front of the bar), 1:05, 1:54 and the last run.
When you turned your feet to the backside before he passed you? He went to the backside (:15, :38, :45, 1:43).
I also think you can make your arm cues bigger – they are very subtle and low, which makes your feet to be the primary cue his best option for info. You can use your hands to get his attention then turn him away – you had an outside arm low and forward, but I am not entirely sure he was really seeing that info. Bigger arm cues will help override where your feet are pointing 🙂
>Seemed like I had Sly confused enough that he started guessing? >
Yes, in spots like at 1:20, 2:20 – he was probably guessing, partially because you were a little late on the right cues and there was not a lot of connection. Plus he has done a ton of reps of the same thing – many dogs will start offering different behavior because they don’t know why they re doing it again, must have been wrong LOL
Also – all rewards came for the left turn, no rewards for the right turn, so he is likely to go where he is rewarded.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Thanks for being so patient.>
I feel it is more about good discussion than having to be patient! And even better that we agree 🙂
>My oh-so-cheerful doctors have estimated between 6 months and a year before I fully return to my previous state of agility-ability due to the broken leg. That seems grossly unfair but based on my rehab progress, I do believe it. Enough of that…>
Ugh, it is unfair. At least we are spending the summer getting distance work and more independence with both boys. I think you are able to effectively get them around AKC Standard, JWW and T2B courses right now, they are both doing really well working independently.
Those 270 yard UKI courses probably wouldn’t be a good idea but I think that is a spot where we also agree that we don’t want to run those anyway 🙂
>Although we almost never trial outside, it does automatically increase arousal and I thought that was a good idea.>.
Yes! Higher arousal is always a good plan to add in. And the grass will simulate the turf they see as well, more than mats will.
Seeing that it was hard to get the sit is actually a GOOD thing because he had to work it out in higher arousal. And he did!! So it might not have felt as great as being in the barn did, but the session was very helpful for transferring the behavior to the reality of trials.
Toy on the ground proved to be a bit too hard because he thought he should target to it and turn towards it… it was splitting him brain a bit. Having him face it and sit was fine but the real trouble was having him NOT face it and sit 🙂
But it is not super important to have the toy on the ground. You can use the bowl with food (high value food) and then tug after each cookie rep. That keeps the food interesting (because it is paired with toy play) and you don’t have to worry about him targeting the toy.
And you did add some good motion on the backside wraps, it was the toy on the ground that made it harder later in the session.
>I think I need to go back to just the board and work on a quick sit and release in the presence of food first and then the wonder-toy.>
You can work on him ignoring the toy on the ground, I don’t think you need too for the purposes of this skill – just don’t have it on the ground 🙂 Where it was placed was not helpful for the behavior in terms of eliciting head position, so you can go with the food bowl and then mix the tugging in after each rep. I bet he sleeps on it and has it when you revisit it in a few days. Bear in mind that it is also a plyometric hind end workout, so you don’t need to do it daily.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>The first day (beginning of the video), I was so messy in my handling!! I’m blaming my shorts, lol. They were new and apparently are terrible for running in since they don’t stay where they are supposed to. Kind of odd since they are meant for running. Anyways, those shorts went in the donate pile and we tried again the next day.>
Good to find out about the shorts at home and not at a trial! They are probably meant for running in a straight line, not zigzagging across an agility ring with all of the rotations and direction changes.
Looking at the first run, I was going to say that the 3-4 line at :08 needs your motion to converge at 4more, and to give a turn cue from 5-6 to get a good turn to the tunnel.
You did all this at the start of the green shirt runs:) and also at the start of the red run shirts. Super!
My only other suggestion for the opening is to line her up on. More severe angle to get the straightest line 1-2. She was turning to get to 2, so there might be away to take out that extra stride.
She had some bar trouble on 10 – you can try that with a blind cross, because it is possible that the FC was not finishing in time for her to see the line sooner enough.
>The hardest part consistently was the threadle wrap at #13. I worked on the skill with her as a warm-up before two of the sessions, and she did relatively well with it, but once I added other obstacles in front of it, she would either take the front side or (more often) do a circle around the jump. I don’t think I was deceling enough on some of the reps, but I was struggling to get the blind in as it was, lol. >
Yes to all of this!
I like that you wanted to do a BC to a TW on 13, it is good to look for that as a possibility – in this case it is just too hard to get to the BC in time (needs to be finished before she exits the tunnel so you can decel) to set the line there.
When figuring out if you want to use a TW, look for what happens next on course and ho important it is to get way ahead. In this case, it was not that important to get way ahead, so there is not a significant enough benefit to the TW to make the risk of being late on the blind worth it. The push wrap is easier to get to and works great on this line.
You might be able to get there sooner for the TW if you handled from the takeoff side of 10 (standing in threadle position) and sent to 11-12.
You were getting it at 3;06 and later on (she was wide and had questions though) but there is also an element of her having learned it happening, so the first couple of reps are more insightful.
>I think she also just didn’t know what to do with her body because she definitely looked at the jump.>
That was just her processing late info to sort it out. When the TW was in flow, the decel into didn’t happen early enough for her to sort out the decel for herself.
>There were a couple of other spots where I broke connection before she was committed to the next obstacle. Whoops! >
Yes – for example on 14 at 1:12 and 2:40 and 4:08 and 4:19, you were pulling her off the line by turning to the weaves too quickly. Remember to keep moving to the jump until you see her approaching the jump, then you can move to the weaves.
You had good plans for the ending line 19-20:
BC before 19 is a good choice and the BC on landing side of it can work too – you need to get there sooner for both. The answer is not run faster, because you were really hustling which is great! But you can get there sooner by sending to the tunnel after the weaves and layering the 10 jump to cut across the field, rather than running the line with her. You would stick closer to the weaves, then as she exits cue the tunnel straight ahead and when she is locked onto it: layer the jump and start heading for the exit of the 18 tunnel.>Overall, I was thrilled with how well she did on the skills in this course!>
Totally agree! The only hard parts for her were just handling timing questions – all the skills to execute were in place! Yay!
Nox ran this brilliantly!!! She was driving her lines beautifully! And she did not get big mad when you were a little late on the blind at the end. She just kept going on the line – super! You did the push wrap with her on 13 and it worked perfectly!!!
Also worth mentioning: you really had zero pointy moments! Great connection throughout and your arm followed them when it came up, rather than pointed ahead of them. Click/treat to you!!!
Great job 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>First of all, I was cracking up reading your notes! Most people don’t have the skill to make someone laugh when you’re telling them all the things they’ve done wrong (repeatedly), but you have totally mastered that, lol. >
Ha! I know you have a great sense of humor, and also it is hard to convey the smile behind the words when all the info is in writing.
>Two of my non-agility friends and my husband all gave me funny looks when I explained that the reason I was laughing was that I was reading about how I messed up my runs with Nox. 🤣>
I am sure they think dog sport people are TOTALLY NORMAL. HA!
>I KNOW I’m not supposed to point at things, and I tell students in my class not to point ALL the time, lol. I just can’t feel it and don’t always recognize it as the problem in my videos when *I’m* the one doing it. >
We humans are very pointy monkeys in general!
>It’s hard not having an in-person instructor for moments like these, but I will try to specifically look at my videos for “Pointy Situations” when she yells at me, and hopefully I can catch myself doing it more in the moment.>
I find that there are consistent things that happen when I am being pointy: running past jumps/refusals on sends are the #1. Then knocked bars or off course on the wrong line. If that happens, I start to self-diagnose by trying it again without my arm, and with more connection. If it happens again – I watch the video.
>I have run previous dogs a long time ago without using arms as a handling challenge, but I don’t think I’ve ever tried it with Nox now that you mention it. I will try it out! Should I use my arms to run or do my best penguin impression? 🐧>
Try it both ways! On big lines, you will want to really run run run so don’t be a penguin, but penguin arms are good for tighter lines.
T
Hi!
We got really good information on these runs!The places where you had a lot of flow on jump-tunnel lines looked great!! That includes the gamblers opening and both jumpers classes, as well as the sections in regular which had a lot of flow. The bars down in jumpers were the same thing: late turn cues on a left turn.
He kept working even when things were hard, which is good too!
And he is getting more comfy in the trial environment – this is also really good!
The other info he said was that he is not ready for contacts or weaves in th trial environment – he was avoiding the DW and A-frame in flow (he took the a-frame on the way back to you in regular because it was right in front of him). He did get one weave entry. And he was on the teeter but the rear cross surprised him so he bailed off.
>So do we keep trialing? I struggle with whether I’m asking for too much by trying to run in a trial setting. >
I think you keep trialing on the stuff that he is telling us is fun and flowing, like the jump tunnel sequences in ASCA jumpers (also speedstakes in UKI, and Jumpers in USDAA). But don’t keep trialing for real on the contacts or weaves for now.
The contacts and weaves should be gradually introduced one at a time, in an FEO or NFC way, with a reward in the ring. So the real question is: what can you bring in as a reward? I know he loves food – so some UKI trials allow some food boxes. But the other venues do not, so he will need a toy or ball or something (USDAA and UKI are fine if you throw a ball)
I don’t think it is a matter of which trial to choose – I think the top priority is finding something to bring in for FEO, to help transfer the skills to the trial environment. What does he love to play with that doesn’t involve food?
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
For both dogs, I think the switches looked great and so did the balance reps. They seem to be reading the 2 hand swoosh away quite nicely 🙂
For Lift: she read the switch away really well!
On the regular rear cross to the jump: there is a lot of acceleration needed after it, so you can say “Go” as you change sides, and keep your arms down so she sees connection and acceleration, and doesn’t see any shoulder turn to the tunnel (:42)Looking at the switch on the jump after the tunnel – you might want to go closer to the jump to do it so there is more acceleration to set the line into the layering after it (otherwise you get caught at the tunnel). And keeping your arm down will show clearer shoulder position facing the line.
Looking at the regular RC there, back to the tunnel – you accidentally pushed her off the line and showed backside info at 1:42. Your feet were going to the right-wrap wing for a couple of steps then you turned them to the backside on the other side as she was passing you. To smooth it out, you can run directly to the center of the bar until she is approaching takeoff, more like what you did on the last rep. That went well!
Kaladin:
>He got a bit confused about the proximity of the table when I asked for the wing wrap.>
That as pretty fun the he liked the table LOL!
He also read the switch aways really well!
He had the same RC question as Lift – more acceleration needed and les arm to send ahead 🙂
On the Switch on jump after tunnel – your verbal said jump but motion, position said tunnel and high arm blocked connection (:46). Going closer to the jump to set the line after it will help him too. And keep those arms down – I don’t think either dog is reading them as a distance cue on the first rep. In fact, it might be drawing their attention to you rather than showing the line. They get the line on the next reps, but that is after they have seen the line you wanted. That first rep gives us the best info.
Looking at the beyond the dog walk setup:
Lift did well with the Go versus right! There was a big difference in the verbal energy when you did them in the same sequence and that really helped!!!>Don’t think I got the “right” cue out early enough for the first balance rep but she nailed it on the 2nd try.>
Yes – she seemed unconvinced that it was a go but wasn’t sure if it was a right. The others were perfect!!
>Kaladin Jump is still in closer than for Lift but he’s looking more confident>
Yes, he is totally getting convinced that it is cool to go that far away without you 🙂 Good boy!!! Especially on the last sequence, when he was working basically on verbals and didn’t need much help from physical cues. Yay!
You can probably add maybe the a-frame in over the tunnel here for both of them – it will be distracting enough in terms of blocking your path, and won’t take up as much room as the dog walk 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi!
She’s looking great! It is like she never had any time off 🙂Connection was super strong throughout! Your timing is good – you were spot on with the right cues on rep 1. A little later on the next 2 reps, but the last run was perfect timing and connection!
One thing to define is exactly how tight you want her left & right to be.
I use my left/right to be a 90 degree angle from the jump – which for Grace, would pull her off the next jump in this setup. That can be useful when we do more complicated courses.
Because she is really small, you might want her taking the middle jump in more extension (because she still won’t be wide :)). On the first run, you hd perfect timing of the left verbal and a little decel… she collected really well but we might not need that much collection. So maybe you can stay accelerated and keep moving, so she stays in extension.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
You had your serp arm back on the releases here on the first 2 reps – terrific!! To help him pick up the line to the next jump – keep the serp arm back and keep the connection, rather than use the arm to point at the next jump. The serp arm position cues the next jump as you keep moving. If you try to point to the next jump, you might send him right past it if your position is not perfect.
On the rep at :27 where the serp jump was the 2nd jump, you had your closed shoulder pulling him in – this is where you can open up the serp arm back to him so he sees the full serp cue.
Adding the angled jumps after the tunnel – it is an easy line for him, and you had your serp arm back too! Yay! So keep that arm back as you also cue the next jump – it will feel weird at first 🙂 But it really helps show the line without a lot of extra work from you 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning! This went well!
There was one blooper about which end of the tunnel to go to: Remember to look at him when giving the cues, not tat the obstacle. Looking at (and pointing to) the tunnel at :17 caused him to think it was a blind cross so he cut behind you to the other side of the tunnel. You had connection at :25 and he knew exactly where to go
>Serpentines, a little struggle. It is hard for me to get to where I need to be in these short fast sequences. >
I think one tweak will make serps much easier:
To cue the serps from anywhere, remember to lock your serp arm back, extended away from you (like strike a pose from MaxPup 1 :)) And looking back at your hand (and his landing spot) really helps too.
You were trying to cue each jump with your arm going in and out, but the serp arm being back will cue the whole line 🙂
If you are ahead of him enough, the arm position is not as important but it becomes critical if you are not that far ahead. That is what happened at 1:19. You were not as far ahead, and the serp arm was not clear til after he was passing the jump. He got it on the last rep, but having the arm back sooner will make it easier for you both.
>Max rules, he is so smart and catches on quick. His work ethic is amazing.>
I totally agree – he is a superstar! And you are doing a great job teaching hi the game 🙂 Nice work here!
Tracy
Good morning!
Most of the technical/close handling stuff looked really strong here (and the a-frame was blocking part of it), so we will focus on the layering sections.
On the layering work here, remember to build the skills with reward, not repetition. Especially if you fix something, reward her (like for working away on a line, or coming in to handling) otherwise there is not a lot of quick skill building happening. Instead, she is learning the course which is not as helpful for future courses where she needs to know the skills and you need to time the cues correctly 🙂
On the first course, starting at 4:
Running with her 4-5-6-7-9-10 works until you get to 11 (jump after the dog walk) because of all the forward motion of having to run up the DW with her. To get a better turn to 11, you need to decelerate and give the cues when she is still on the top ramp of the DW at the latest – but that puts you kind of trapped behind the DW and changes the cues for the tunnel-tunnel section.
That is what was causing the trouble there on the first run, and at 1:02: you got too far past the DW (closer to the first tunnel) and ended up putting a turn cue on the 12 tunnel with your motion. Plus the go verbals happened after she was already in the tunnel so she had to make a turn decision based on your motion she saw before entry (which is why she kept turning left, because that is what you were showing with the physical cues).
When you were on the correct side of the DW so motion was correct, she got it easily at 1:15.
By 1:40 and 2:11 she had learned it, so she did look at you (because motion said to turn left) but kept going.She didn’t really get rewarded in there – Those were handler errors, so reward when she got it especially if you stopped to fix or work a section! And we want toy rewards instead of obstacle rewards, because obstacle rewards will not create enough balance in handler focus and line focus. She is very line focused right now, so toy rewards will help a lot.
To get the sequence without the question tunnel-tunnel: layering is very helpful! Send her ahead after the teeter and layer the DW while she is weaving. That puts you further ahead so the exit of the DW will be tighter and you will be able to show the physical cues to the tunnels very easily.
She took the backside of the last jump at 2:18 – stronger/clearer cues needed to bring her in off the backside line like you did at 2:28: name call, eye contact threadle verbal and threadle arm moving back – all before takeoff of the 2nd to last jump. Look for those lines on courses so you can give the cues to keep her on the correct line. Maintain that each time – you got later with the cues when you were running the full courses later in the video (starting them when she landed) and without as much intensity. That will get an off court when she doesn’t already know the sequence 🙂
Looking at the weave entry layered on the 2nd course – she didn’t see the weaves the first time. She did get them after she knew they were there – that I a great spot to reward!! And then reward again when you put it back into the sequence.
When you were running the big courses – she was able to put the skills together because you had sorted out the handling and shown her layering lines, so you were both already really comfortable with the sequences. So the next goal is to be able to solidify the skills so you can cue them and she get get them the first time. You can do this by isolating certain sections like you did here, rewarding them out on the line for the layering elements. And if she comes off the line, watch the video before trying again to see what the physical cues are telling her, and when the verbal cues are coming. That way you can change the info for the next rep and cue the elements in the bigger sequence.
Nice work here!
Tracy
