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Hi!
> So in retraining Beka (and then training Kyrie) I should use the same physical cues I use to get the dog line that I want.>
Correct! Direction-based verbal cues do not replace the need to also train handling cues.
> if for a specific direction-based command, say for the backside wrap turning to the right, my physical cues in my current handler-based system were different depending on the side the dog was on (thinking threadle versus push handling), would I pick one of the two physical cues and use it for both situations (that is, use it for both DOR and DOL) or could I use the same physical cues that I use now for the two situations?>
All the physical cues remain the same… it is only the verbals that change. So the backside slice left to right would be the verbal attached to that behavior, regardless of whether the physical cues are push or threadle or rear cross.
>Oh, it just now it occurs to me that my current physical cue for the backside slice and the backside wrap done as pushes to the backside are the same>
They should be different enough, but also the verbals will be different too.
> Hmm, just now occurring to me that in some of the situations it can be confusing to the dog as to whether they should be slicing or wrapping (which impacts how they should be setting up to take off as the get around the wing). Now wondering if that explains some issues Beka has with slices vs wraps and not getting in a good takeoff place for a wrap. >
There are a lot of things that could be in play, but if the physical cues are late or not different enough and the verbals are not clear then yes – jumping questions could come up.
>Am I over thinking that at all?>
While it is always good to clarify handling cues if the dog is having questions, it is also important to not drive yourself crazy about it all.
>Ok, just to clarify, on a line of three jumps that you you are running DOL and you want them to do a threadle through each of the jumps, you would still use the direction-based command used to have the dog take the backside of the jump (from their perspective) and slice the jump for each of the jumps in the threadle line, correct? advantage is that it would be the same command if you were on the other side of the same line of jumps, correct?>
Yes, if that is the behavior then the verbal is the same regardless of handling choices. It is the same concept as sit meaning the dog should sit, no matter what the handler is doing.
Looking at the videos:
She did well with the tunnel here!
>We haven’t tried any kind of retrieving outside –>
Yes, getting retrieving will help and also don’t keep sending her to it if she doesn’t bring it all the way. There is a lot of running for her on this session, so time it to be 90 seconds or less. She was getting pretty tired and stopped bringing the toy back, so finishing before she is tired will help a lot too.
Try to line her up with a cookie at your side – it is possible that being moved into position by her collar was causing a bit of avoidance in bringing the toy back. Then as you hold her, say tunnel a few times before you let her go so she is locked on before you let go or move. There were a couple of spots where your movement was not that clear (like at 1:05) – remember that the tunnel is new to her 🙂 so letting her lock onto it before you let go will help. You can also add small incremental changes in angle
Lap turns: the mechanics generally went well on both sides. A couple of things to help make it smoother on both sides:
You can have your hand fully extended to her before she turns back to you, and you can be a bit further behind the prop (like you were at 2:40 and after it on the first video, and on most of the 2nd video). That way she will lock onto the hand really easily, and after you turn her away you can start moving forward: that motion cues her to go to the prop.The other thing to add at this point is an empty hand: the empty hand will do the turn away work and you can reward from the other hand after she hits the prop. That takes out the reward for coming to your hand, but I think things will flow better without that.
Tandem turns: I think the loop of it was happening a bit too fast to set up the mechanics on the reps that went sideways, so the hand cues to turn away were happening to fast (so she turned towards you). But when you slowed things down and got her focused on the hands then slowly turned her away, things went really well! So if you loop back into the next rep, the cookies need to already be in your hands: not enough time to get them out of the pocket 🙂 But also it doesn’t have to be a loop: you can throw the reward, then play tug… then throw a start cookie for the next rep. That gives you more time to set up the mechanics and the turn away cues – and that was when you got really nice tandem turns 🙂
Handling combos:
I think by the time you trained these, she was mentally done with training for the day. If the videos were posted in the order you did them during the day, there was about 25 minutes worth of training which means the last 9 minutes with the handling combos were when she was just over it all 🙂 All of the games have a relatively challenging impulse control component, so asking for more after all the sessions during the day was what actually set up less impulse control (depletion). So we can’t analyze why she went to the toy on these 2 videos other than to assume she was depleted and trying to opt out. So while you did get her to do a couple of good reps on each side, structuring the training differently overall can help get more success overall: If you choose to work a game that has an impulse control element (like the engagement outdoors at the tunnel, which also has retrieving, or going past the prop rather than to it on the lap/tandem turns) – make that the only impulse control game of the day. And if you do another session of training, work on something that does not ask impulse control questions – make it something fast & fun. She will learn everying a lot better with the less-is-more approach because you won’t grapple with depletion and opting out.
So if you revisit these, do them as the first session of training that day! You’ll probably see far more success on the impulse control elements in particular.Nice work here!
Tracy
Good morning! I am very glad that Ripple was comfy in the trial environment 🙂
The clicker sits are going well! One suggestion to help get more stay going: After the click, throw the cookie to her rather than have her move to your hand. There are two reasons for this:
– we don’t want your hand movement to be part of the release
– throwing it back to her will help her want to stay in her spot as you move gradually further awayThe toy was very exciting! She has a lot of toy drive but did a great job figuring out the game – her sits got better and better with each rep. For the release on this game, you will want to use your ‘formal’ release word (OK or break or whichever word you’ve chosen).
For both of these ways to work the stay, you can add in quiet praise before the click or release to tug, to start adding more duration.
She seemed to have a great time with the tunnel! You can use a tug toy to reward this too – she tugged really well during the sit game so I think she will be happy to tug in this game too.
Since it went so well, you can add in the threadle side entries (she is between you and the tunnel and has to turn away to get into it).Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
I am glad Reese did really well! So fun!!!>she picked it up and brought it to me! Twice. I used the French linen which is her best retrieve toy so far. Super happy with that!>
YES! Good choice of toy! And it is so cool to see the training from home transfer to a new game AND new location.
She was HILARIOUS with her outside leg (front right) on the first rep of the ‘out’ cue. A massive, obvious effort to use the other lead to hit the prop. Really good proprioception! She was not quite as exaggerated on the other reps (and very smooth moving to her left) but she was excellent at naturally picking up the difference between the ‘get out’ cues and the ‘move with da momma’ cues. When things dry out, you can add more distance outside if you like!
Great job :) Tracy
Good morning!
>In the live we did serpentine work. But, I don’t see a video for that this week. Are we supposed to be working on that?>
Try refreshing the page again? It should be visible.
>Reese had fun at the seminar. >
Yay! The video you posted looked super fun. And most importantly, she was able to be in a new environment with a zillion distractions and engage with happy focus. SUPER!!
>No drooling with the ginger cookies. But, after a two hour car ride home she drank a bunch of water and regurgitated. So, she may be hot in the crates. It was very warm when we left. I cranked the AC, but I don’t think enough air is getting back there.>
Hooray for no drooling! And yes, she might have been hot in the back – and lots of treats might have made her extra thirsty too. There are products out there that can shuttle the a/c very directly to the back (but also plenty of folks do a homemade version of it for a lot less $$. Here is a popular product:
Stay Cool In The Car, Keep Your Kids and Pets Cool On Hot Days
Have fun!
Tracy
Good morning! This session went really well!
>I was trying to stand up but many reps I missed the bowls. Want sure if the bowls fade away??? >
No worries about missing the bowls 🙂 She did really well and is ready for the next steps: this includes you changing what she wraps around (using a barrel, for example) to generalize the understanding of the behavior. And, she is ready for you to move on to the Turn And Burn game:
The bowls get faded out in Turn And Burn, and you can also use a toy. I think you will both really enjoy it 🙂
>I wondered if me moving made her not wrap??>
On one of the misses, she saw your hand moving to put the treat into the bowl to soon so that pulled her off the wrap. And there was one more where she was chewing and I think she forgot what she was doing (I can relate LOL) but she immediately reset herself and wrapped. She is very successful now with you standing, so moving on to Turn And Burn will be great fun.
>The last part of the video is sending her through the uprights. She likes this and even though I thought the ruler was ok she is still jumping some.>
This was so fun to watch – she was great about looking forward and finding the line between the uprights. And it looked like she really enjoyed it too 🙂 Yay! I don’t think her movement over the ruler was a problem – it as natural movement, no impact, and not formal jumping. It just looked like a baby dog having fun and was perfectly safe.
> I don’t know if it matters if I throw the toy through the uprights or around the outside. Thinking around might be better in the long run???>
Either is good! The goal is to get it out ahead before she looks back at you – mission accomplished here. So if around the uprights is easier to make that happen, perfect! But if you sometimes throw it between the uprights – also good.
Since this went really well, you can take it outside and add more room. This will give you more space to add lateral distance, and also you can start close to her so she drive ahead. That will set up rear crosses in the future!
Great job here, this was really fun to watch 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
>I think you might have missed me mentioning that I started the food video with a bit of a warmup of just doing the nose touch alone (we hadn’t done it in a bit). Then I started the formal strike a pose work with the treat in the other hand.>
Ah yes. But doing it all in one session shows how quickly Kyrie picks up on reward placement – after a few reps, the placement locked her into a certain line which was harder to change when you started the more formal game. This is good to know about how quickly she learns with reward placement! No worries though, the toy placement got the behavior very easily 🙂
>would I be doing the threadle-specific version of this when we get to it? >
Yes, you would still be teaching her the physical cues for the threadle slice (similar to the serp cues, which a bit more arm movement and slightly different position relative to the jump). The verbal would be the verbal that fits the direction, but the physical cues are still important to show her. I use the correct verbal even if I am in the perfect position for a physical cue (and vice versa – I will show physical cues while delivering the verbal) all in the name of helping the dogs as much as possible 🙂
> I am wondering if using the direction-based verbals for backside slices for a traditional jump threadle line (since that is what they are) works?>
Yes – you would go all in on the verbals 🙂 and they totally work. So if the backside slice verbal is what cues her to enter on the right wing then slice to the left wing, when you would use that same verbal attached to the varying physical cues (like a push cue or a threadle slice cue).
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
On the food video:
She is driving in really well to the target hand. She didn’t quite know what to do after that, so an adjustment in reward placement will smooth things out:
Reward from your hand across the body (so she slides in front of you) rather than starting the next rep with the food toss. The reward placement creates the 2nd part of the in-then-out line on serps and threadles and helps keep the dogs tight to the line. You can see that after a bunch of rewards that were thrown at the start, she questioned where to go after the hand touch (anticipating a throw). You did go to rewarding from the hand, so keep going with that and be more consistent with the marker. There was yes good girl take it all mixed in there 🙂With the toy:
I think the toy placement helps clarify the line for her a lot here! Yay! It was hard to ignore the toy at first but that is indeed part of the challenge of the game here 🙂 She was getting it really well by the end here, on both sides!So you can progress this game with the toy and food – with the goal of getting the rewards to the ground. The toy can dangle from your hand then eventually be on the ground. The food can switch to a food bowl on the ground below the food hand – it can be empty and then you can plop the treat into it after she touches the hand target.
Using the bed as a retrieve destination works well! She was bringing it to you more than to the bed here from what it looks like, so you can have the bed in the area but start to move away from it (like sitting on the couch or being further away or standing). She seems to think it is a toy trade game which is is fine of course 🙂 You can get the original toy back into your hand more by increasing the criteria to get the 2nd toy: you can keep that 2nd toy a bit hidden until toy #1 is in your hand… then until after you’ve tugged on toy 1. Using a marker will help a lot, in terms of when to ‘out’ that first toy: you can start by using it when the toy is in your hand, then delay it until after a bit of tugging.
Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi! I hope you are having fun today!
>it seems like shes good with one to two sends. Then, it’s too much. Shes not going to do it back and forth too many times>
I think 2 in a row is perfect for this age, and sometimes 3 with the turn and burn as the 3rd one. More than 2 or 3 just gets too repetitive.
The rear crosses were mainly a matter of getting you to be able to get past her shoulder and visible on the new side in time. When you did that, she got the rear crosses! On the reps where she turned the original direction, she could still see you on the original side so turned towards that side.
We might have to tweak the cookie toss to set it up: on the tosses here, the landing spot of the cookie was creating a curl back to you on the original side which made getting the rear crosses harder. I think using a corner of some sort would help: she can’t really curl back to you in a corner.
You can create a corner – do you have a tall book that can stand up and create a 90 degree angle to be a freestanding corner? Or maybe use the grey dog bed that has a corner on it! You can toss it into the corner of the bed and cross behind her to the new side, making yourself more visible on the new side without her curling back to the original direction.
Let me know if that makes sense 🙂 Nice work here getting the correct ones and rewarding even if it didn’t go to plan 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
Blind cross mechanics are tricky at first then they get very easy (and super fun :))
>I think I decided that the toy should be in the hands next to her as I start so when I do cross I can reward across my body. Correct?>
Correct! It should start and remain in the dog-side arm when you are running away before you for the blind, so when you do the blind you can reward across your body.
Your assessments of what happened on each rep were spot on! The main thing about having earlier timing is to think about showing her the toy across the body – let her see it. That is not that important for her in terms of the toy begin visible, but what it does is opens up the connection by push the new dog-side arm further back so she can see the new connection much more easily. At this stage, she needs to see both of your eyes looking back to her eyes. And that way she can make the side change even if you are a little late 🙂 It gets easier as she gets more experienced.
So what I mean by that:
If you are running away with her on your left side before the blind, toy is in your left. Then when you do the blind, to cue her to come to your right side: put the toy across your body and on your right hip, so she can see it. Your right arm is on vacation at that point LOL and you can move it behind you so it doesn’t block her view of the connection.
On these 2 screenshots from right after a blind, you can see that the new dog side arm was blocking her view of your connection on the new side so she didn’t see the side change. If you put the toy in a slightly more visible spot and point back to her with the dog-side arm rather than have it at your side, she will see the new side perfectly.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1j2VFwfaEe0_7M2pNrDJ0Q-9JLjANqOR38OUuIbacFqk/edit?usp=sharing
Let me know if that makes sense! Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi!
I agree, he is totally on track and doing great!>On the decompression, sometimes he goes to his station, but not sure if he just knows reinforcement is there or needs a break. >
Maybe both! Is he leaving a training session to do that, or is it when you are offering a decompression break and heads to his station? Either way, I think it is perfectly fine because we do want the station to be a relaxing place. And if you want him to sniff or something, you can move the station or move him and scatter stuff in the grass (or put a snuffle mat on the training station, if he likes snuffle mats).
>If she returns to work, she wants another rep,>
With adolescent dogs, they might return to work for another rep but they really shouldn’t do more reps because their brains are a bit depleted LOL so if a session is over, you can direct the decompression so he doesn’t try to keep working.
>I haven’t every trained anything formal on this front. >
Training it a bit formally also provides great info about what the pup actually finds decompressing, based on how they react. For example, snuffle mats are great for decompressing, right? Not for 2 of my dogs LOL!! One whips it over his shoulder and runs around with it like it is a cape. And another eats the treats as fast as she can (no sniffing at all) and just gets more activated. So sorting out each dog’s decompression is helpful.
And by directing when we add decompression into the session, we help the pup’s body ‘learn’ to regulate arousal states too – super useful for high arousal sports like agility!
>They also get quite a bit of off leash adventure time so I don’t purposely try to add anything else.>
Off leash adventure is awesome 🙂 Yay!! The in-the-moment decompressions are designed to be specific to helping arousal regulation during training, and the off leash adventuring is more about decompressing as part of regular life. All of this is useful 🙂 For in-the-moment decompression, an example would be if I am training and seeing arousal state shift into a bit of overarousal, I can offer a decompression (exactly which type depends on the individual dog) then get back into the training. I like to offer decompression before the dog tips over into overarousal/stress and takes a decompression.
>He already backs onto things – we started that really early in his lunch time learning. >
Great! Can he back up onto something that moves a little? You can add that if he hasn’t done that yet:
Looking at the video:
That pile of stuff was hard to ignore as you ran into the session, he is a curious dude 🙂 Nice job getting the arousal high! This game is one of the reasons that my 2 year old dog has had a stunning easy transition into the competition setting: he knows how to use his body even when he is in the more aroused state brought on by that environment.
Ikaika did well here – he was happy to offer getting on stuff even after all the toy play 🙂 It looks so simple from the outside but there is a lot going on inside the brain & body 🙂 It is a game to keep in the rotation and just keep changing up what you are asking him to climb around on. And add arousal to basically any of the other games so he has an easy time doing it in arousal.
Great job!
Tracy
Thank you for the update! It sounds like he is doing remarkably well for only being home for a week! He was fantastic at Levy’s seminar last week.
>Toy play: Playing outside and switching from toy to food and back to toy. I tried the run to toy game he chases when it is moving but doesn’t engage with it once it is stopped.. >
You can also use something like a big hollee roller that will continue to bounce and roll, for him to run to and scoop up. And you can start with just dropping the toy in front of you both (hold his harness) so at first, let him grab it as soon as it lands. Then gradually delay letting him grab it so it becomes progressively more and more ‘dead’ LOL
>Up and down game: he is playing this outside now, and the back and forth beginning to recognize “fined it”.
Walks in the yard are going much better with a pocket full of treats LOL Ted recalling for a yummy.>Perfect! Sounds like everything is going really well 🙂
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Good morning!
Actually, this went a lot better than it might have felt in the moment 🙂 She gave useful feedback for small adjustments that will bring up the speed and excitement more consistently.She was very fast on the first send at the beginning. She did slow down and ask a question after the front cross when sending to the 2nd barrel. It looks like your send was a shade early, just by a step, for a baby dog. So make a small adjustment:
Have a longer Hallmark moment of connection before sending to the 2nd barrel. Let her get almost ll the way to you… then give her a big snappy send 🙂 It will feel slow and late for you at first but it answer her question and then she will zip through it more.
Also, definitely use a toy – when you went to the food, the energy of the first send went down too. But when the toy came back out – back to full throttle on the first send. The toy doesn’t have to be in your hand – it can be in your back pocket like it was in the beginning. Having it in your hand was a hard visual for now, so we can reduce that by having empty hands for now and then I am confident the toy can come back to your hand after she sleeps on it and sees another session of this.
>She’s definitely requiring a lot of energy and move,ent from me and she’s still not really committing so I can leave.> >Should I do more turn and burn?
She is thinking hard 🙂 and solving the puzzle! But she is doing it right. This game has a LOT for the youngsters to process (my dogs are super slow in the demos too, and that is perfectly fine :)) You don’t need to go back to more turn and burn – Using the toy and delaying the 2nd send to make sure she sees the connection for longer will help. Plus, I bet she sleeps on it and comes int the next session knowing it a lot more 🙂
Nice work!
Tracy
Good morning!
The rear crosses looked great! Yay! She is a speedy little beast already so I think rear crosses will be very useful 🙂
Your cookie toss into the corner was perfect! You were able to get easily past her shoulder, so she saw the new direction with no problem at all. And I am glad the line helped preserve your back so you could hold onto her to set up the throw. Great session!The barrels went well too, and it is good to hear the first ones were even better. She is ready for turn and burn where you start to move to the FC earlier and earlier – and that will lead into the rocking horses with two barrels very easily.
Get job!
Tracy
Good morning!
Looking at TnB dog on left: this went super well. Only one question from her at 2:48 where you moved too early (she had barely taken one step forward to the barrel).
Great job moving the line around progressively and without doing too many reps in one spot!
Tug or lure her into the line up rather than move her by the collar – she didn’t seem to love being moved by the collar.
Dog on right also went well. You were tugging her into her start position rather than pulling by the collar and she seemed to like that a lot more 🙂 You worked the line around the barrel really well and she had no questions.
So… onwards to the rocking horses! Yay! You don’t need the turn and burn to be worked more before moving on, because rocking horses re-visit turn and burn elements 🙂
Plankrobatics went well too – tugging further away seemed to help. She also seemed a little more comfy turning to her left here on the plank, and that is fine, but is was fun to see her be able to turn in both directions! Her balance and confidence is looking good overall, and the right turn will continue to get stronger. This game can go into ‘maintenance’ mode where you revisit it here and there, with the main goal being to try to take it on the road – where else can she get on wobble boards and planks?
Great job here!
Tracy
