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Hi!
Thanks for the video – I have a different perspective on it 🙂
>Here’s a video example of the wingless. Note – this was last run of third day so he is tired but still working well. >
He was working great! The wingless jump here might have been a coincidence – and he was not taking off too early. When he was dropping the bar, you were breaking connection by looking forward pretty dramatically (watch your pony tail LOL!) and with all the other obstacles right there – a connection break can be distracting because there is not a lot of room for propulsion and it could be the beginning of a blind to one of the other obstacles.
When you stayed connected… the bar stayed up 🙂 Video evidence here LOL
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1u-e-aJRhYpCvOrRKgfrXz9mkGdbjNM1rcm6KhHkafC4/edit?usp=sharing
Do you have other videos where he was dropping the wingless, so we can confirm or deny this theory?
>I’ve decided Ven is a 12″ dog. If we get a favorable measurements, we might have the option to run UKI at 12″ without having to run select. We’ll run preferred AKC and Ace ASCA. I have never run UKI but think we might have fun trying it. My fear is the huge ring size.>
Perfect! The 12″ class is very fun 🙂
And yes, the huge ring in some of the UKI events is annoying LOL! But you can skip those classes 🙂 Keep an eye out for the DASH events in UKI, which will NOT have those monster courses!Tracy
Hi!
Kaladin’s backside slices looked great! You can throw in the occasional ‘test’ of not connecting when you are running through the exit line (like you did here) and maybe flinging an arm back, but NOT throwing the toy. You did a little of that on the last rep but there also some toy swtiching so he was watching that LOL
> Decided I should balance with the front of the jump and Kaladin went for extra credit with backside slice.>
He was being good there – The backside is on the line and yes, he had just gotten rewards for it so you needed an earlier cue after the tunnel to change his line over the jump before the former backside jump (name call is probably all he needs)
He also was fast and happy with the circle wraps here! The cheese was very exciting : ) You also had more motion going into them, and he liked that too!
Lift definitely felt the cheese was a great addition to the game LOL! You might have had too much motion on the first rep – it was Kaladin-experience-level speed and countermotion, with you on the takeoff side as she arrived at the takeoff side. You were not quite as fast or far ahead after that – you were still a bit visible on the landing side and that helped! You can add in getting to the takeoff side as she arrives at the takeoff side, but dial back the motion (fast walk to begin with) so she can process the bar and not just your position.
She was doing a great job on the circle wraps too, really working her mechanics to make the turn and commit! You can drive in closer ot the tunnel so she can move ahead of you into the circle wrap. That will add even more motion and countermotion to it by taking out your decel. And Lift says to please keep the cheese as part of it LOL!
Great job!
TracyHi!
Looking at the start lines:
>She is creeping on the start line. Yesterday, it cost us our gamble time at the trial because she crossed the line and stopped again before I released her. How do I deal with this without adding start line stress? She did it a lot on this jump (lattice wings) so I was wondering if she couldn’t see me and moved? It doesn’t happen every time, but it’s a problem and I think it’s getting worse. She doesn’t usually do it once she’s been reset but that’s not a solution.>
I think it could be a couple of things. One is a lack of connection as you lead out. She doesn’t move when you are looking at her (her movement on this video was when you were not really connected). That, plus anticipating the release when you are a certain distance away might be part of it – you can try looking at her as you jog to your lead out position.
The other thing might be criteria maintenance… if she can move sometimes and then get released, then she might offer that behavior a LOT especially in places where it is followed by the release (trials). So be super consistent. This might mean shorter, faster, more connected lead outs to set her up for success.
And build in a TON of rewards thrown back to her at variable times, when she does not move. Most of her reward for the start line comes in the form of the release, so throwing lots of rewards back to her will help keep it solid. Otherwise, she will potentially move – and the reset is a punisher which could add stress if it happens regularly.
Walk through:
I am not sure she is taking 2 based on your shoulders and disconnection at :12 – you can have an open arm as a serp cue to set the line, and move yourself laterally so you can be up the line and still commit her to 2 🙂
The 3-4-5-6 line looked good. A right turn on 7 is ok as long as you don’t step in to 8 too much (opens up the off course tunnel) but left turn sets a better line to 8 🙂
I didn’t see commitment cues to 11 (motion/connection/verbal) on the walk through – you were handling 9-10 then did a BC to 12 🙂
For the 12-13-14 line: doing a BC at 12 to get the push wrap on 13 puts you pretty far from 16-17-18. It is a good spot to keep her on your right for 12 and do a threadle wrap for 13, then you are miles (or kilometers 🙂 ) ahead for the next line!
I think you did a really good, clear job of committing her to the jump bar on the 17 jump – this is a spot where she might sometimes run past the bar but you clearly looked at the landing spot to commit with countermotion!
You might get the off course tunnel after 20 – stronger cues needed when she is taking off for 19 to get a good turn there.
Looking at the runs:
On the opening line, 1-2-3:
Run 1 – you had a good lateral lead out then did a big step back to 2 which delays getting up the line. You can lead out to that spot and handle it as a long-distance serp (arm back, connection parallel to her line).
Video 2 – you stayed closer to 2-3 and it put you really behind – super nice hustle to get the 5 backside! Woot woot! She stayed on her line really well!> I’m not sure how to get a tighter wrap on 8 – I deceled, cued early and she went wide each time. Earlier, I called and tapped my leg and she dropped the bar, so I am at a loss.>
The video (and the dog :)) agree that you were late there 🙂 At :47 on video 1 and :13 on video 2, you started the verbal and a bit of decel when she was about halfway to the wrap jump and the rotation started as she was taking off (you can see you were about halfway through the rotation when she was over the bar). I am not a huge fan of the leg tap (it may or may not have contributed to the bar) but I don’t think you need it on wraps.
On the 3rd video at :15, you had better timing of verbal starting (over the bar of the previous jump) but you said ‘go byeeee byeeee’ so the verbal was different – and the and decel & rotation were late.
So since being told “you’re late!” is generally NOT helpful 🙂 I think it might be better to talk about when exactly to start the cues:
as she is taking off for 6 (jump before the wrap): hit the brakes with BIG decel and at the same time, start the verbal. To emphasize the decel, you can also use 2 hands. This information should be showing before she lands from 6. And you can keep moving forfward a little in the decel but definitely keep facing forward, until you see her looking at 7 – then rotate (might be when she is about halfway to 7). Ideally, the rotation is finished and you are moving the other way with exit line connection before she takes off for the wrap.Try that sequence in isolation (5-6-7-8-9) and see how the timing plays out!
She had really good commitment to the bar on the backside slice at 9! That skill is definitely getting stronger!
Looking at the 11-12-13 line:
On Run 1, she didn’t take 11 (needed more commitment cue and motion towards it). She got it on the other runs but it was wide, so with whichever handling you choose, bear in mind that the turn cues begin no later than as she exits the wing of 10.
On the 2nd video – you can decel/hang back at 10 to send to 11 as she exits 10, which will get a better turn and get you further up the line for the TW at 13! I really like this handling choice – the hardest part is to be very patience on the threadle wrap (I hate the word patience hahah). On this run at 13, you were too quick to do the hand cue flick for the TW. She did not see the beginning of the cue (still in the tunnel) so when she exited, she saw you moving forward and flipping your hand away. She did get it, but if you decel while she is in the tunnel, let her exit while hearing the verbal and seeing the hand cue low, and hold that cue & position until she turns herself away. You will still have an impressive positional advantage on course, even if you spend time being patient (ewww haha) at 13.
Getting the push wrap at 13 on the 3rd video – it is hard to get the BC on time at 11, and then be sure to suppot the 15 tunnel more. It is a lot of work for no advantage compared to the threadle wrap 🙂
Nice job 15-16-17, great job with the backside slice commitment with countermotion – got the blind at 1:04 on the 2nd video but rotated too early on the send to 18 – the decel and rotation should happen separately to get commitment. Compare to 1:08 where you faced forward longer before rotated and she looked great!
For the 19-20-21 line, a question:
What is your physical cue for a threadle slice? It was hard to tell here – I didn’t see a threadle cue at :38 in terms of an open shoulder, so she was reading motion which read front-of-jump. You got further ahead there on the 2nd run, but your shoulder was still closed forward. Then at 1:12 you did a low one hand cue, and it looked like a TW so she turned to her left – but I think you were using her slice verbal? So we can clarify what the physical cue is (which can also help with getting the 1-2-3 line at more of a distance).
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>Are you able to do an overlay with one of the walkthrough videos (this post or the next) and the actual run? I’m trying to get it done on my software but it’s just not working well. I’m just curious about how accurate it is once I start running.>
Overlays are my favorite bit of nerding out! Can you send me the raw video? I can’t overlay them from the youtube link, but I can if I have the original video. The videos are probably big, so you can send the link via http://www.wetransfer.com to my agilityuniversity@gmail.com address
One thing to try to do is run the course faster than you think she will need you to run it. Then when you actually run it, it will feel much easier 🙂
Looking at the walk and runs: this went pretty well! There were a couple of spots in the walk through where I thought would end up being trouble in the run 🙂 and that is how it played out.
On the first walk through (notes before watching the run):
Good plan 1-2-3! On the line 4 to 5: layering is fine there but you’ll need powerful verbals and possibly convergence to get her to take 5. You can say your forward verbals big, loud, and say them repeatedly and emphatically. Your Go and Jump were single and quiet, making them easy to miss and not as compelling.You can add more connection back to her 5-6-7 – she was behind you there so rehearse looking back at her 🙂
You are definitely getting the off course tunnel after 11 🙂 The cues all set her on that line – more decel or rotation are needed plus big verbals to convince her not to go to the tunnel 🙂
The rest looked strong on the walk through!
Run 1 – you changed your lead out position and release, which might have contributed to the trouble getting 5? And you used different verbals: get out go out out out. So, clarify which verbals will be most effect and start those when she is still 2 meters or so away from entering the tunnel.
The 6-10 section looked good!
You added a spin on 11 at :33 but still got the tunnel – the spin needed more decel and for timing: as she lands from 10, start the verbal and decel into the spin (the verbals started one stride before takeoff which is after the takeoff decision was made). Then as she is lifting off for 11 – call her HARD if you think this type of discrimination needs extra emphasis 🙂
For 14-15 based on how it was set, you needed to pull away more to show the front side (:44) and use your ‘left’ as she exits the wrap at 14. You used it when she was already almost at the backside wing.
The ending line looked really good!
2nd run – opening looked really good here, this matched the walk through more. That also allowed you to really accelerate up the line and use your verbals to get 5. 6-10 lookd strong again! And no off course tunnel after 11 🙂
You hada little decel at :25 on 11 and definitely there was more calling her. She turned to 12 after she landed when she heard the call, so the calling her was helpful. I think the best option is decelerating into a spin with the wrap verbal (starting at landing from 10) and as she is approaching 11, calling her a LOT before takeoff.You had a much better line to 15 (you can still use your left verbal sooner, as she is exiting 14) and the ending looked even better than the first time! Nice!!!
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
> Pick may have a fabulous new home soon! So I may work just Roots going forward unless it falls through.>
Yay for Pick!! Fingers crossed!!!
> I thought the show and throw start would be better so he’d hear the word before seeing the motion,>
That was smart!!!!
>This dog is NINE years old>
Happy birthday!!!!! I hope he also got some ice cream or something, not just verbal discriminations LOL!!! He was a good boy here and definitely tried to figure it out.
At 9 years old, he probably has an extensive history ofthe obstacle relative to your positional cue/line of motion being the correct obstacle. This is mainly what we trained 9 years ago in foundation work and how you’ve been handling him until recently when adding more verbals, so it makes sense that his default is to what the physical cue says. And since we want ot keep success rate high (the 2 failure rule stays in place even with 9 year old dogs :)) a couple of ideas for you:
– 9 year old dogs can still learn, so you can break this game down differently for him. The show and throw start can be followed by you saying the obstacle name and then showing gentle motion towards the correct obstacle: my mantra is “as much as needed but as little as possible”. That can help pair the verbal with the existing cue. Then, over time, you can fade the physical cues out more and more as he pairs the verbal cue with the actual obstacle.
– you can work Beat on these games! She has had a different foundation and we have done some of the foundation stuff for this (like the wing-versus-tunnel proofing games). Start her without motion, holding her collar. Then I bet you will be able to gradually build up to adding starting her at the wing wrap and adding more and more motion. I personally have found BWs and Whippets to be impressively good at verbals on course in high arousal (which kind of shocks me, honestly) so it would be fun to get Beat started on these games in small increments.
So both can get turns and be successful! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi! I am glad you are getting a break from the heat – it has been a HOT summer!!!
This game is particularly hard for small dogs because they have to take twice as many strides as the bigs! I think he did well here overall (I also think he thought this game was WEIRD hahaha)
He did check in to see why your motion was stopping but your voice was saying to go – that is a valid question LOL! When you added more motion before the tunnel (last rep) he was accelerating more on the tunnel exit which helped, plus there was a lot of value out on the line thanks to your earlier toy throws.
> is it just more reps to give him more confidence to go straight out to the jump? Should I bring the jump in even closer?>
Yes, I think more reps with thrown reward like you did here will help build the skill – but you can also bring the jump in closer so he can get to it more easily. You can start it as close as 12 feet, then on each rep of a session move it away from the tunnel by one foot. It is a bit labor intensive to keep moving it, but it will help split the behavior so you can reward him for looking ahead and build value quickly.
> I *think* if the poles are all the same color it’s less of an issue. And he weaves well at home, but of course I have white poles with stripes. I’m hypothesizing that the new solid color poles in all the rainbow colors is sometimes hard for the dogs to process depending on the flooring color, pole color, etc.>
This could be an issue for sure! I have seen dogs struggle with different color poles, especially if the color blends into background ‘clutter’.
> I’m planning to bring my poles to class next time and do an experiment>
Clever! Let me know how it goes!
It could also be the different bases, and where the feet are on the bases. Are they the same color/width/foot placement as at home?
> Am being very careful to make sure I’m not just making this into an excuse, more curiosity about all the things that might be causing this difference (home vs. not-home being the most obvious). What do you think?>
I don’t think you are making excuses at all – I think you are seeing a question from Reacher and trying to help answer it. My poles at home are a combination of white, white w/ stripes, and solid (red, orange, blue). I mix it all up all the time and that seems to help.
And also with weaves, keep tabs on any physical issues because if something hurts, then imperfect weaving in different locations are usually the first sign.
Keep me posted!
TracyGood morning!
Bummer about the video but hooray for the weave success! Yes, I think your plan to keep exposing her to finding weaves in different contexts will be useful for the harder courses 🙂
Keep me posted!
TracyHi!
I am glad you are finally getting good weather! And hopefully you won’t get hit with that derecho thing I saw on the news!!Very nice session here!! He did a great job with his ocmmitment and you were wonderful with moving away sooner and sooner. You can definitely add in the next steps that have more motion and the race tracks.
One thing I see here is that he tends to turn with his head/neck/shoulders moving as one unit, so the line around the wing is more of a rectangle and less of an arc. Now that he is basically in his adult body, you can revisit the leading with the head game to remind him of the mechanics of turning his head into the turn:
Tight Turns: Leading With The Head and 360s (Backside Wraps)
I remember him doing well with it as a youngster, but he has grown a little since then hahaha Plus it is good for indoor training!
Great job 🙂
TracyGood morning! Well done on this hard course!
Thanks for adding the walk through! You had a nice fast pace all the way through, and great job using the verbals! Now the goal is to be able to maintain that connection to where she is for the whole walk through. You started looked ahead of her and at the obstacles during the run so connection was not established and that is where the errors were in the runs.
Yes, it is a pain in the b*tt to be that connected all the way through the walk through 🙂 so one way to approach it is to look for the hard spots on course and emphasize those connections in the walk through.
For example, 1-2-3 is hard – you definitely emphasized the connection there in the walk through, and you were great with the handling in the run.
Other spots to emphasize connection: tunnel exits, exits of crosses (so she knows which side to be on), and anything where you have to push on her line or turn her away, like 11-12 and 16-17.
Finding and emphasizing those connections in the walk throughs will get rid of the little errors in the runs 🙂
****
Looking at the runs:Nailed the opening and the plan worked brilliantly all the way through 11. Great job!!!
She needed to see more connection as she is taking 11 to show the ‘get out’ to 12. The tandem turn/switch away from your left side 11-12 worked GREAT!!
After getting 12, running to the blind at 1:40 made it late and she took and extra jump. Any motion pushing into the line sent her to that jump like at 2:56. She had a great line when you ran directly to the teeter with her on your right.
On the ending line, the jump at 17 is also a get out if she is on your left- using the outside arm worked well, and so did taking another step or two towards it to get the slice line like you did at 4:52.
2nd full run – lovely til 15!! Nailed the opening again (just like you walked it!) and all of the other moments had great connection and timing of decel where needed, crosses, and verbals. Yay!!!
You didn’t get the connection on the side change at 4:22 so she stayed on her line and *almost* took the off course tunnel. Try to save it and keep going – you saw it happening and she hadn’t gone off course so you can do a quick adjustment like a FC on the flat to get her back on your left side. It would still be a clean run and possibly a winning run too 🙂Re-doing the ending from the 9 tunnel went great too.
There were so many gorgeous sections of these runs – and that is why I will keep bugging you to work the connection more in the walk through especially on those challenging sections. The bloopers were mainly about connection – and then after you practiced it (with her) with connection, you nailed it! So the goal now is to practice it without her so when you do the first run with her, you can nail the whole thing. I am excited to see it happen because you two are looking great!!!
Tracy
Hi!
Sorry to hear about the bad weather! This indoor session went well!! He did a great jump turning away from you on the threadle wraps even as you ran forward past the wing.You can add in starting him from a cookie toss behind you so you are both moving up the line (rather than from right next to you), which will add the challenge of him being able to see the other side of the wing to wrap too 🙂
And if you want even more challenge… put out 2 wings about 2 meters apart (if you have room) – then you can mix in regular wraps on each on as well as threadle wraps. It will be a bit of a discrimination which is definitely more challenging!
>Just to confuse things, the only place on course I use left and right is on threadle wraps so I have a different verbal for each one.>
That will keep your mind sharp to remember them, but I have confidence it will be easy for you and Grin too 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi! This session went really well! Your connection looked great. The first sequence of 5 thruogh the end looked good! The first rep of the blind was actually too early 🙂 so he was a good boy to NOT take the middle jump LOL!
On the last 3 runs (:22 – :35, and :39-:50, and the last run) – your timing, connection, and decel into 5 all looked really great! He nailed it!His only remaining question is on jump 6 (the middle jump). He hit the bar all 3 times – that is a hard slice and he is not reading it on a shoulder turn alone. So, try adding a brake arm – as he exits the wrap on 5, stay connected and cue jump 6 with BOTH arms as you turn. That way you can keep moving, and he will see the turn cue better and add a stride before takeoff (which should help with the bar).
Great job here!
TracyHi!
>felt like this was a very messy session >
I don’t think it was messy, I think it was informative!
>And this girl does love her pool! She was given breaks to go play in the pool during the session, but I guess she wanted a few more!>
That was actually hilarious, the splash was so emphatic LOL!!!!
Looking at the session: She is really watching everything, as you can see at :04 when your change of motion as you changed the toy from hand to hand overrode the go cues. Sighthounds see all LOL But she is also listening!
So with that in mind, here are 2 adjustments that will make it feel smoother:
– when you are not going to cue a straight line, you can take out the ‘go on go’ for the cue for the jump before the tunnel. When you were doing that, she was going straight and was surprised when there was a turn cue on the 2nd jump. You can use it for the tunnel exit or use a jump verbal for the jump after the tunnel (or no verbal :)). From the stay, a regular release would be fine there. The ‘go on go’ has value in terms of going full on in extension (unless you move the toy from hand to hand, then the toy wins LOL)
– you can add another 5 or 6 feet of distance between the 2 jumps, to give yourself and her a bit more processing time. That way you can show the wrap decel and Rc line even better.
For the wraps to the left: for most of them, you were running into the rotation, so she either was getting the info late (like at 1:15), or it read as a RC (like at 1:37). To help her see it sooner, as she is approaching the jump after the tunnel, you can decelerate facing the wrap wing. Then as she is passing you and beginning to collect you can rotate. The decel is the main part of the cue, so make it prominent 🙂 and then the rotation will be after it – and her turns will be super nice! And if your decel is too abrupt or happens with the rotation, you might pull her off the bar.
For the RC to the right, you can get on the RC line to the center of the bar even sooner – even before she is taking the jump after the tunnel, you can be moving to the enter of the bar. She will pass you can get the RC. When you did that, like at 1:05, the Rc looked great! Nice party there as you rewarded her!
Also, with the wrap verbals… say them a few times as you decel, not just once. So it would be a quiet skiskiskiski as you slowed down, so she doesn’t miss it.
About the pool moments…
The first Rc at 1:57 kind of set the line into the pool, she felt it was the next obstacle LOL!
Then at 2:16 it looks like you over-rotated to be parallel to the bar, which pushed her off the line to the backside (and into the pool) – your line should be to where the wing meets the bar, not parallel to the bar. Your connection was really good!So overall, it was a helpful session to see what she needs in terms of cues and she got some swims in too LOL
Great job!
TracyHi!
The tandems looked really good here! You were emphasizing lining your feet up to the correct one so he knew exactly where to be. Super!!! The line of your feet plus the clear use of your hands & verbal made. This look pretty easy!
Since this went so well, you can move to the threadle wraps – where he doe a complete circle around the wing as you move forward. You were throwing the reward back to him here which was great, so definitely keep doing that when you add the threadle wraps too.
Nice work!!
Tracy
Hi!
I think this session went really well!
>so I didn’t do everything correctly and Max was starting to get bored when he doesn’t want to do something. He starts jumping on top of the tunnel or he just bark at me>
You must have edited out those reps 🙂 I didn’t see any shenanigans! You were really working the connection and that makes all the difference. When he can see your eyes, he knows where to be so definitely keep connecting and keeping our arm back so he sees it. You also did a great job of shifting your connection to the ‘landing’ spot on these so he was able to commit as you moved forward.
He was sometimes unsure when the hand with the toy in it was pointing forward: grab the toy? Or go to the wing? So you can keep the toy or a ball in your pocket rather than you hand, which might make it even easier.
And feel free to post bloopers 🙂 Short sessions are definitely great!
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
>We have been working some and I just get lazy about editing and posting.>
Editing is the biggest pain 🙂 So you can just post the whole video without editing it, I am happy to scroll through the in-between moments 🙂
The 4 ways game looked really good – nice job with the verbals on all of it!
>I haven’t really taught her backsides yet. So for those, I pretty much pushed her there.>
Pushing looked great in both directions! Good handling like that can produce the backsides even if you have not spent a lot of time training them.
The front side wraps also looked good!!
>On the go line work, I did it several times and then realized that we were essentially doing a wrap because I was staying back and she was coming back for the reward. So I tried again with throwing the toy to get her to keep going. I have also worked on this with just a straight line of jumps and sending her to a dead toy. Is that kind of exercise helpful?>
Yes, throwing the reward like you did at 1:19 is most ideal – throwing something heavy and early will keep her from looking back at you. You can also place it out ahead sometimes, as long as you also work on getting the Go line without it there so the placed toy does not become the cue to take the straight line 🙂
Looking at the rear crosses:
>On the rear crosses, I included a blooper that happened a bunch. Where she would turn right before the jump. We couldn’t get past that for many reps.>
What was happening that caused the question (and putting you behind her more than you wanted to be) was that you were facing the straight line til she got past you, then setting the RC by going parallel to the bar. The shape of the line you were running was kind of an L shape. So she knew to turn the new direction, but didn’t always know you wanted the bar too, especially if you were closer to the previous jump.
You can get the Rc more consistently and not be left as far behind if you don’t wait for her to pass you, to set the RC line. Before you even pass the wing of the jump before the RC jump, you can be running towards the center of the bar of the Rc jump. She is very speedy and will pass you – and the info from running the line to the center of the bar will tell her to jump the bar and turn the new direction. And the bonus is that you won’t be as far behind her 🙂
>rely heavily on verbals.>
Your verbals are strong!! You can test your running line and connection by playing this game without verbals… that will tell you if your physical cues are telling her the line too.
Great job here!
Tracy
