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Hi!
>At class times there’s a lot going on though. The typical way he starts is stationing on a cot outside the ring to settle in a little after we enter the building. >
Bearing in mind how busy it will be and how many dogs/people will be going in and out of the ring and doors… a cot outside the ring as the first order of business might be way too much of an ask and too hard with all of the activity going past you that you won’t be able to control. Perhaps a cot far from the ring? Or start with a pattern game far from the ring then a cot far from the ring. Start off with success even if you think the ‘ask’ is too easy, because the environment will be so much harder than he has ever experienced (both externally and internally).
>Then we do some pattern games and allow him to make good life choices.>
Help him out with super high value food, and keeping him on leash. As an adolescent, his brain might tell him to approach a person or dog… then alarm bark at them when he gets to them (he did this when you took his leash off immediately at the seminar in June). So, keeping him on leash and not allowing him to go towards something that he might be uncomfortable with being near when he arrives.
>I’d start the same way (stationing, pattern games), >
This might assume a certain quietness outside the ring for the stationing… which won’t be the case at OTR if all the classes are in session. Start further away to really set up success as the first thing so you can both assess the environment. And if it is too easy? Great! Better to be too easy than too hard.
>then enter the ring, ask for a couple of spins, if I have good focus, leash off, party with toy, leash on.>
Depends on the activity level in the area – because of the adolescent approach desires, you might not want to take the leash off, or have him wear 2 leashes and take off 1. The leash off game is great but if it hasn’t been conditioned in that internal and external state/context yet, you will want to start off easy to get lots of success.
>Is there anything else you would recommend for our first night? >
Make the ‘asks’ sooooo easy that they appear too easy 🙂 What you are working on is internal state and context, which is really powerful. Don’t assume that what he can do in different internal states or contexts can be easily transferred, so making things easy will be very useful at first!
And have incredible mind-blow, human-grade food rewards and amazing toys. The environment and context/state might be wildly different, so be prepared with incredible things that will break through the challenges of the environment 🙂
>I feel like I need to start pretty basic with him since he has not been in a group class since puppyhood and the most challenging parts of this will be navigating the building and the fact that there could be dogs running on the other side of the fence.>
Yes, this! And puppy brain is very different than adolescent brain, so have a plan to minimize challenge in what you ask for, because the environment might very well be maximizing challenges.
And make sure he is past any of the pain he was feeling over the weekend – any pain will hijack the bandwidth his brain needs to use in order to deal with the environment.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
>all I have is a box fan >
If you are in a shopping mood or can borrow one… a tall fan will be useful so we can split the bird challenge by using a fan to create flapping things above her head. That is likely to tap into the bird response but on a much smaller scale. If you look back at the MaxPup 1 Stealth Self-Control games, we can slice the bird challenge down to help train her brain to cope with it when faced with real birds.
>Also, Sunnie has done “pattern” games in the yard for a while now too 🙂 Basically all I’ve done since I put “agility” skills on the shelf. >
What is the pattern game latency in the yard? Super super quick grab of treat then immediate look back at you, like this (turn down the volume LOL):
Or does she scan the environment before looking back at you? Which rewards are you using for those?
>has our leash walking become operant now ? pulls & then stares when birds are in view whether on the ground, on the fence or in flight- I interrupt & feed?>
To make sure I understand: you are walking her on leash, she pulls/stares at birds, then you feed. Is the pull/stare behavior decreasing and looking at you increasing? Or staying the same? Or pull/stare increasing? That tell us what is going on ‘under the hood’ in terms of learning. If you are interrupting (by showing food?), it is not really operant because there is no antecedent/cue then behavior then reinforcement, it is more of a lure (enhancement of where you want her to look).
> Do I constantly have to not be predictable – don’t walk in a straight line while we are on leash in the yard? >
I think the #1 thing is to try to separate the pairing of the stimuli of the birds from the stare/pull/chase response. That is going to mean a bit of a lifestyle change where in hours where there will be visible birds, the very first thing you do is step outside and pair that moment with a really engaging powerhouse of a reward. Then you can potty, or do some other games with more powerhouse rewards (games that can be done on leash and are relatively simple so she will get those rewards/reinforcement), then back in the house.
Tracy
Good morning!
>I understand now how it doesn’t apply here with the birds. >
I think we can use elements of it, thanks to the super positive conditioned response to it that you’ve already created. It is a tool we will use as we add more tools 🙂
>I understood it as if was giving her good feelings so she would choose this over the birds in time, help her with arousal since that’s what the birds give her a HIGH, but that HIGH is really the chase?! >
Yes – the high that the birds give her comes from multiple sources: genetic wiring, the anticipation of the chase (that is where the conditioned response to the birds comes from) in terms of scanning for the birds, based on learning history in your yard, and then the chase itself (endorphins woohoooooo!)
The dopamine box can be built into some of the games for sure! But by itself, it can’t win out against all of the elements of birds. So we use elements and concepts but don’t rely on it. Plus, there is the issue of her ‘knowing’ what to do when there is no dopamine box present. So other tools need to come into play, and fading the box needs to happen to.
>Maybe the box better used for helping them overcome a “hard” situation like a vet visit or something?>
That is a good use for it if she is comfy with it, because you never have to fade it – it can always be there.
>why we want classical & not operant with the birds.
It is the classical conditioning that is winning against the birds, which is why operant stuff that doesn’t have the same conditioned value is losing out in the face of the birds (but is going great in other contexts).
>it became an operant & the classical part is her running to it, right? >
Yes – there is an element of both happening. There is *always* classical learning going on (whether we like it or not 😂 😆) so it is impossible to separate classical and operant learning.
>I fed her & turned to run back in, but she didn’t move & kept her head in the basket (box)! >
Ha! Too funny. MORE RAW FOOD PLEASE HUMAN! And the high impact food is quite powerful!
One classical element we can use is that the instant she goes out the door into your training area there will be an immediate highly paired thing to ‘do’ – this can be the box, or super bowls, for example. And the targeting stuff takes out hypervigilance (scanning for birds, for example).
>Now if I use a bowl or target discs she won’t do that. >
Probably because she needs more high powered pairing: bowl = raw meat nom nom. The box has mainly been high powered pairing – it didn’t start off with that conditioned response, so it is quite doable for any type of bowl or basket or target. And then eventually any activity.
>Do you think I should ditch the box since that has taught her to keep her head in the box.>
No, I think we can incorporate it! And we will have to get her head out of the box (thinking outside the box, literally haha). So it can even be something like: head in box for reward, do a simple fun thing, back to the box. And then we fade the box as the activity (like hitting a prop) takes on the conditioned value of the box and other stuff.
>I was using the Box next to where the birds are thinking that the box & the feeling it was givign her would override the desire for the birds. >
With the box present and high value rewards, it is possible she will have some ability to ignore birds to some extent, but then she has to hold her head in a box to do that. She will at some point need to move around 🙂 which is why we can incorporate elements of it without relying on her holding her head in the box.
>Is it corrrect in saying that all I created was an operant behavior of keeping head in the box in various situations?>
I think you are seeing both a classically conditioned response, and an operant response as well (operant responses have a huge classical element). But the goal is that she can present operant responses when she can see the birds , when she is moving, and when the box is not present.
> And when I say Box to her & she goes running to it, it’s the running part that is classical (she loves that) & then the operant behaviro is her just keeping her head in the box?>
When you give her an antecedent (cue) like “Box!” her response is operant (behavior followed by a consequence of reward). The reason she responds to the cue in the first place has a classical foundation to it (pairing box with food) and then it is more cognitive and operant when she holds her head there even when she is not eating. So, basically: it is both classical and operant.
>Has zero to do with dealing with birds in my yard?>
It shows the power of classical conditioning! So that is pretty cool. Is running to the box triggered by the presence of the birds? Probably not. And if the box is not there, will she chase birds? If she does not have her head in it and you don’t say box… will she chase? Or if she is chasing and you say box… will she go to the box? I don’t know – and that is where more training is needed. That is why the box is a cool tool, but just one piece of the puzzle.
>We like being outside, but you mentioned above that I shouldn’t do any games outdoors until she is unable to take her eyes off of me indoors? >
Anything asked of her outside should be fully conditioned indoors before putting it into a birdy situation. So the game has a positive conditioned response (rather than seeing if she is accurate with it, it is more about does she froth at the mouth to do it :))
This doesn’t take long with powerful rewards paired into it, though!
>Then what CAN we do in the yard, just go out to potty & come back in? >
You can make every.single.time. you go into the yard into a pairing experience. You want to take her out to potty? As soon as she steps outside the door, you give her an amazing treat. Pairing! She will begin to associate stepping outside with it, and will begin to automatically look at you.
You can also do super bowls: have the bowls or baskets already in a line in the yard, and have great rewards ready then bring her out. Do a lightning round of it (fast and fun) in and out of the yard, then training session over for the moment.
And you can play with the dopamine box, and maybe do a variation where there are multiple boxes: she starts in one box, eats treats. Then you call her and run run run to the next box: eats more treats. And so on. This begins to get her head out of the box and still be able to assess the world around her, but in a way that conditions engagement. This can be on a long line to start so any bird chasing can be stopped.
You can also begin to make the sides of the box smaller/lower: so as she has her head in it, parts of the environment are peripherally visible. Fading the box!
>No, I haven’t done the leash off, engagement ON game, what is that?>
It is a classically conditioned engagement game that quickly turns into operant choices:
>Here is a session from last night of Super Bowls. I have raw in my pouch in a baggie so it didn’t come out fast enough. >
Raw is great! When you take it outside, use rubber gloves so you can handle it more quickly. Speed will be important outside 🙂
I think she really likes Super Bowls! The session went perfectly. It is a great game that combines the conditioned responses to bowls/targets/boxes 🙂 with the operant choice of looking at you. And it has movement, which teenage dogs love 🙂
Before taking it outside, do one more session where you make her WILD (higher arousal state to match what she will be like outside). Then play 🙂 and if her responses are super quick, you can take it outside.
And the outside session should have the mind-blow rewards (do it for her dinner, if her dinner is yummy raw food) and be short and sweet.
Keep me posted! We will get her sorted out!
Tracy
Good morning!
>I need to evict a garter snake, a toad and a wolf spider from my blue tunnel before I bring that into the mix. That sounds like a scary childrens book! Tunnels really attact wildlife.>
At least they are friendly critters! Hopefully a good toad and not a bad toad!
>so I straightend that tunnel, cut up some steak and took Lew out for some fun!>
FUN!! It sounds like he had a blast 🙂
The set point work is going well. Lots of stay rewards!
When you do get to standing near the MM – the next step is to add in praise before you do the catch or the release. He is still anticipating that when you arrive at the MM, he will get the release so there were some broken stay moment.>He was trotting over the second jump towards the end but I was mostly just concentrating on the stay & release. >
I think he was realizing that there was no need to charge to the MM because he had to slow down to get to it anyway. So now you can move to adding the moving target 🙂 As you are dragging the target, you can mix up rewards for the stay and releases over the jump. That will get more jumping behavior.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning! Welcome back!
>I think it got worse as I went because I hadn’t realized that my first rep was actually ok so my attempts to lengthen the box, move the Treat n Train farther out, and raise the jump to 8 inches were actually counterproductive. What I was trying to accomplish was more bounce – not walking through.>
The first rep was indeed spot on 🙂 3rd rep was good too and he had a couple of other good ‘bounces’. I think what was happening was a combination of the Manners Minder causing him to decelerate to it, and then a bit of boredom/fatigue/efficiency from the repetition at the end 🙂 He might have been thinking: why push off and power through, when I am just going to have to stop and eat from the Manners Minder.
But that is an easy fix – the MM is just to introduce the concept, and he did great. So now you can use the moving target reward. A lotus ball on a leash that you drag is perfect for this! If he can do it from a stay without jumps, introduce it in the pre-game over 1 jump – then add it to the set point and see how he feels about it 🙂 You can also use the toy you used the Wind In Your Hair game – he drove it to beautifully! For the set point, you will want it attached to something long so you can drag it.
Wind In Your Hair looked great! He found the jump with no questions. Great job with your verbals!And you were able to add your running at the end. Super!
>Next time I think I can lengthen the distance farther and run with Rusty in all the reps.>
Totally agree! He is ready for more distance and more running. Great job!!
Tracy
Hello and welcome! The video link came through 🙂 She is so cute!!
She did really well here! Her stay looks lovely and she is moving really well. A question: how old is she? She looks young so we will adjust the jump foundation to make sure it is age-appropriate. Using the cavalettis you have here, the poles should be in the lowest setting so she is organizing her feet more than she is actually jumping. And if she is really yung, you can remove the poles entirely and just use a rolled up towel or half a pool noodle 🙂 The distance between the poles are likely to change as she grows, so we will continue to make adjustments. You can set her up very close to the first pole so she is not stepping in before it but rather pushing off fro her rear right away.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>And I can take the time to play before the first obstacle – to make sure we’re ready to start in the first place. >Think of agility as just a series of playing with you and doing tricks 🙂 That way you can get those established because you ask for the more complex tricks known as obstacles. He has had limited experience doing obstacles in new places, so it is super important t make the environment super fun so he is in the arousal state to even recognize obstacles.
>From other sports, my brain has a trial mode which is a bit too process oriented (enter the ring – setup – go).>
Yes – and in human sports, most of us have experienced some sort of mental prep before entering the competition arena. For dog sports, getting the play is the mental prep 🙂
Looking at the video:
>He’s not in much of a hurry to find my face, which probably reflects that this environment is interesting. >
Yes – the latency on the regular pattern game element was a little high (took a little longer) so you can keep playing the regular game until his responses are very quick in that environment. Then you can add find my face. And it might also be an indication of environment versus available reward: if it is a less interesting motivator, he is likely to attend to the environment more. If it is a REALLY interesting motivator, he is more likely to attend to you and the motivator :))
>then into the find my face piece. Initially he’s at my side,>
That is fine to reward.
You can watch for him peripherally: at :13, he did find your face it just happened to be from the side 🙂 He doesn’t have to come all the way in front of you.You can add your movement now, walking around back and forth so he drives in to find your face 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning! Great question!
I personally have not found typical decompressions (snuffle mats or lick mats etc) to be of ANY help with my sighthounds and lurchers. I agree that a great decompression is a run run run moment. And I also cue it (‘go for a run’)
>But I wonder if that isn’t creating a pattern where if they need to decompress, they will do a “victory lap” on course. >
I’ve not ever had it spontaneously happen on course – the trick to it is working the arousal regulation and giving the dog the decompression (‘go for a run’) before the feel the need to take the decompression. So they will continue to ‘work’ until they hear the magic words.
Things that might cause the dog to need to take the decompression without the cued moment are things like frustration or pressure overwhelm. The frustration (overarousal) can come from things like lack of understanding, low rate of success, handlers trying to ‘fix’ things on course (never fix!), etc. And pressure overwhelm can come from being asked to do too much in challenging environments and/or different arousal states/contexts (like trying to run a course in a trial without having worked through the NFC steps thoroughly).
So definitely avoid the dog feeling the frustration or overwhelm in training an trialing, and the victory laps will not be an issue at all 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
>He will absolutely do it for a food lure. He might do it without a lure if he knows I have food reinforcement but still not reliably. >
One option is to do a hand touch line up at your side, which fades the food lure very quickly:
You do a dynamic hand touch back at your side (empty hand) then reward the touch while he is facing that way. Then hand cue to turn and stand at your side (reward) then cue a sit or stay(reward). Here is a video of it:
And always train in a high arousal state, as that will help him be able to do it in front of obstacles too.
Since the hand touch often has teeth involved, you can reward right before he touches your hand: as he is moving towards it more than as he is touching the empty hand. And as he understands it in higher arousal, the nips will fade out naturally.
Remind me if you have ever tried a between the feet lineup?
>If I ask him to line up with me and he’s in a struggle moment, he will run around in circles (not spinning, just actually running in circles), bark at me, possibly run at me and bite me and run away, if I’m trying to line up at a jump he’ll probably go and jump over the jump once or twice.>
All of this relates to arousal state, which is why you need to train it in a higher arousal state. If the arousal state context in training doesn’t match the arousal state context during retrieval (like when cued in front of a sequence) he will be largely unable to do it, and that is why you see all of this overarousal behavior: he knows you want *something* but doesn’t know what you want because the context is so different.
>He can do hand touches really well in lots of other scenarios, but not in front of agility equipment.>
Train it in a much higher arousal state but away from equipment at first. Then it will be much easier to get in front of equipment.
>If I carry him to the start and cue him to wait as I’m setting him down, he will do that so I have been using that as a strategy when wanting to use toy reinforcement in the run.>
That strategy is fine to use as you develop the lineup.
>Wondering if I should try a mat/station again to help him have a clear set up spot?>
You can bring it back out, but also train it in higher arousal – that way when you fade it out, he still has learning during higher arousal under his belt so you can have an easier transition to a start line without it.
Let me know how it goes!
Tracy
Hi!
In the effort to NOT have to add more words to our world 🙂 I use existing verbals (you will see it in the tunnel exit games in this class):For those L shaped tunnel exits (180 degrees), I use my soft turn verbals (left/right) depending on the dog. Sometimes all they need is a name call, sometimes they need brake arms too. So when the dog is about 6-8 feet away from entering the tunnel, I give the verbal and use the physical cues so the dog sees and hears it all before he gets into the tunnel. And it works great! Let me know if that makes sense!
Tracy
Good morning!
Pop out 1 looked lovely! Yes, nice break arms at 3 and he had a great turn to the weaves. And he is doing the turn away from the weave exit really well too!Pop out 2:
>PO2 still had some trouble 1-3 and in overthinking a bit, I did lose connection. >Yes, he slowed down there to see what you wanted.
You can stick a little closer to 3 until he lands, to set up the send into the layering so you don’t get too far ahead and have to decelerate.
>I stayed tighter at 8 so he did not go wide and used brake arms (I think) and got a really nice tight turn on 10!>
Yes! That looked great!
>PO3 did it correctly this time and felt it went well.>
Yes – just remember to stay connected heading to 6. He slowed down there to see the line when you were looking forward.
Pop out 4 – the opening looked strong! When heading to 6 ay 1:37, you can use countermotion at 5 so he sees you heading to 6 before taking off for 5, to tighten up the exit of 5. Super nice layering at the end! Yay!
Pop out 5:
A bit of countermotion at 2-3 and 6-7 (moving forward past the serp jump to show the line to the next jump) will tighten up the line at 1:52 and 2:03 as well. He is layering really well, so I bet you can tuck in right at the entry to tunnel 10 to get a tighter line there too, rather than go past it to support the 8-9 line (2:10)Pop out 6: this also went well!
>He did it correctly but slow coming out of tunnel.>
Yes – on the tunnel exits here, you can crank up the connection back to him. He didn’t see connection in 2 spots and slowed down:
Exiting the tunnel at 2:24 – he slowed down because your shoulder was closed forward and you were looking forward. He couldn’t see connection so he waited for more info.
The other spot was at 2:36, exiting the tunnel to the backside – And he was slower to the backside at because the connection was not clear.Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
That is a bummer about Lennan! Question – have you had a thyroid panel and/or a tick panel done for him? Low thyroid could absolutely be why he gets this off-and-on soreness and was tired/slower, plus also that inability to focus on the last day of the previous trial. Border Collies have plenty of low thyroid issues in their lines. He might not have the other classic hypothyroid symptoms like weight gain and greasy coat, but that might be because he is in the early stages. And a tick panel can show if there is a TBD causing the issues – those symptoms are often found in TBD as well.
Looking at the videos:
This went really well!
The good news about the walk through was that it was really easy to see your plan and your timing! Yay! You can add louder verbals because you were a lot louder in the real run 🙂 and also, you can run faster in the fast portion of the walk through, because he was super speedy here!One suggestion on the handling: The blind on the backside of 4 is more of a German turn, where you use countermotion to pass the exit wing before doing the blind. Doing it as he gets to the backside if you are also on the backside sets a wider line (which is what happened during the runs, where he didn’t see the next line and looked up and yelled at you 🙂 ) or even potentially the off course to 2.
The runs went really well!
Nice adjustment to *not* layer the jump on the way to the tunnel 6! You were ahead so it made sense to keep moving through.Great connection throughout! And the reward on 9 was perfect for the first run, and then he absolutely nailed it on the 2nd run. SUPER!
Seq 3:
On this walk through, you did have a German turn exit planned for 12 and that looked good in the walk through! And it was good training there – I am very excited about how well he found the backside (and not the tunnel) and a good balance would be to send him to the tunnel there too.One other small detail about the walk through:
Be sure to look at the tunnel exits more to plan the timing of what comes next. That will make the timing of the wrap after the tunnel easier and also get the push out to the jump after it on the other side easier too.Training the threadles went well – For the blind to the threadle on 2, you can delay it a bit for him so the timing of the blind doesn’t introduce the possibility of the front side and makes it easier to see the threadle cues.
Watching him on the threadle slices here at 10 – it is possible that making the outside arm visible (like at :23 in the walk through and at 1:16 in the run) makes the cue look like a turn away (wrapping right). Using the dog side arm only and not the opposite arm might be clearer info for him.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
Rain is annoying but it is better than zillion degree temperatures so I guess it is fine 🙂
>My indoor space is small (as you know lol) Any modofications we can do instead?>
Ok here is a goofy idea… do you have a large fan on a floor stand that we can use as an indoor bird simulator? I am thinking of something like this
https://www.homedepot.com/pep/Lasko-16-in-3-Speed-Oscillating-Pedestal-Fan-with-Adjustable-Height-Easy-Assembly-and-Quiet-Cooling-for-Any-Room-in-Gray-2524/100658983?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&fp=ggl&pla&mtc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D29A-029_017_ACS_FANS-NA-Multi-NA-PMAX-5163653-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-MinorAppl&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D29A-029_017_ACS_FANS-NA-Multi-NA-PMAX-5163653-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-MinorAppl-22855643987–&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22859506945&gbraid=0AAAAADq61Uey248KCj55KZtYncW_Qj4vt&gclid=CjwKCAjwyabTBhBFEiwAM3mNUBqvz5_FP3UL2NPMkEz3YiiA8A722bpRbjp8HGeSWVmik_Gh4dVPIRoCQk0QAvD_BwEAnd we put it up on a chair indoors – and attach paper strips to it. Then we teach her games to help her brain ignore things flapping over her head, which will help with birds.
You can also do the moving target game over a jump with a bump indoors, and the wrap proofing game either with a wing and a baby tunnel, or a wing and a barrel.
>I also think she now associates our yard with readily available birds!
She’s always scanning unless I’ve got her full & complete attention. >It is entirely possible that there is a conditioned response to the yard which screams BIRDS at her at this stage – partially based on her genetics (her genetics are lovely and also scream BIRDS) and partially based on her learned experiences.
>She isn’t like that at all in public places like the dog dome (pole barn), Dream Dogs (indoor training) when we are walking around for potty time or the rail trail & park that we have gone to. >
This is good! We can sort out plenty of ways to train in other environments. Is it a pain in the b*tt to not be able to train feely in your own yard? Yes. But is she still going to learn agility and be fabulous? Also yes 🙂
>I”m not sure how to break that cycle without drowning her in self control exercises (continuous short leash check in’s) I can’t shove cookies in her face the entire time, so when I stop she goes to the end of the leash & scans.>
I think the key is going to be more on the associative learning side of things (classical conditioning) and not the operant side of things (shaping or self-control exercises). Classical conditioning is more powerful and operant stuff will lose out every time at this stage.
>, if there’s a bird I have to interrupt, but I gotta tell ya, I can have food right in her face and she’ll ignore it! Probably because it’s kibble?>
I think in order to build a conditioned response in the direction we want… you need incredibly high value food rewards that she does not get in any other scenario. Kibble is a relatively low value food and also something she gets regularly. Time to pull out the best possible food that only comes out in your yard.
>Have you ever heard of box training? The dopamine box? After watching a webinar that Karen Deeds presented, I tried implementing this myself, it’s pretty cool! >
Yes, I think it has some interesting applications but I think it works differently than they think it works. The theory behind it is that the dog is anticipating a reward and that anticipation creates a dopamine spike… but dopamine is a lot more complex than that 🙂 And also, I think the value you are seeing from it is about the classically conditioned association between the box and food, not an operantly-derived learned behavior. And the dopamine/motivation effect that it draws its name from will dissipate when there is nothing novel or anticipatory about the food in the box, or if challenges are added that override the value of the box. Plus it is largely based on an operant behavior (keeping the head in the box) which will not be as powerful as a classically conditioned behavior – you are seeing a classically conditioned element of it when she gets excited to run to it, but that will fade it is it only ever putting her head in a box and keeping it there for the same treats, as other things are added to the environment.
Plus, as with any prop – we need to fade it out so she doesn’t rely on it as she learns the desired behavior of ignoring birds. In other words – we need her to not keep her head in a box all the time 🙂
>Right now the box has a higher value.>
Classical conditioning: box = yummy food and lots of it!
>There’s a process, steps to get where people have just used a target. >
Yes, move to the target steps as quickly as possible. That can also provide the classical conditioning element while allowing movement to the target and visual assessment of the environment. So you can set up a target in the yard (food bowl, etc) and go out to it and immediately drop a handful of steak in it… then back in the house. Classical conditioning: outside being paired with amazing food, no operant questions or choices required for now.
>Just wondering if you ever heard or tried this training since it really hits their arousal/regulation side from what I understand >
Yes and no – it is designed to be able to introduce distractions without the visual element of it (dog would keep the head in the box). But then what is the consequence if the dog lifts the head in the later stages? And also, it does’t discuss enough about the needs of dogs to move around during arousal regulation moments (particularly adolescent dogs). So yes, it can get her into a better conditioned response in the yard than watching for birds for sure! But no, in that without quick fading and next steps, you are locked into a box (literally LOL!) because her main conditioned response challenge is to movement.
>I really LOVE this idea, whatever the stations may be (max pup exercises ideally right?>
Yes, simple stuff with minimal decisions required due to the challenge of the birds – and insanely high value food. You can start with a series of targets where we basically condition the environment to mean: go to target, gt a handful of rotisserie chicken, go to next target, more chicken etc. Dog sports are really just a series of conditioned target behaviors so this is actually pretty useful 🙂
>SO maybe always start out with some attention exercies: loosh leash Ha Ha with check- ins? pattern games, up/down?>
Work these indoors for a bit until you see the conditioned response of whipping her head around to look at you, using very high value food. I think by taking these games outside right now, we are using operant conditioning and getting engagement in an environment where a classically conditioned response to birds) can override it at any moment. So strengthening the games with high value food in an easier spot will help before taking them back outside again.
Then when she is unable to take her eyes off of you indoors… go outside and do a simple pattern game for high value food. And that will be the entire session, not the warm up. We are seeking that conditioned response so we don’t want to go too long and make it operant.
And in a different session, do some targeting like we did with the MaxPup 1 prop, or the boxes/bowls/baskets (there is a pattern game called super bowls which is GREAT for this!) Remind me if we ever did Super bowls with her?
You can mix in the dopamine box too! That can be one of the stations.
>Or even mix it up “attention excercises” > “agility” back to attention, etc… >
I don’t want to add the agility in until you can walk outside with her and she immediately (and automatically) engages with you. Did we ever do the leash off, engagement ON game with her?
>give her a break in xpen & “work” Kelsie a little so Sunnie learns to take turns? >
Indoors, yes. Outdoors, no – she might be sitting in her xpen stewing in frustration and thinking about birds, so it might make things harder not easier.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
He definitely loves the new toy! It is great that it is tiny and not a danger to his eyes! And even better that he also considers it a toy and not just a food carrier!
He was driving ahead brilliantly! You can add in your “go” verbal in now, and more running from you (sorry not sorry haha). You can also start to add more distance between the barrel and the jump! Fun!
Looking at the proofing game:
Part of what was happening was that the current balance of value is tilted towards wrapping the wing and seeing you – the tunnel is not more exciting than that yet. That balance of value will shift as he gets more tunnel value – you were making it SUPER FUN for him to do the tunnel and that will turn him into a tunnel lover for sure. To help him want to do more tunnels, you can straighten that one out (it will be a long straight tunnel!) so he can see the exit easily even though he can’t see you. And within a couple of quick sessions, he will love it as much as he loves wrapping the barrel and seeing you.>He was really excited to play but he petered out as you can see. >
It could have been that it was hotter, that it was evening and his body was starting to go into rest mode, that it was a hard mental game focusing on 2 very different behaviors, that it was focusing on a behavior with a lot of running that he doesn’t love yet (tunnels) or all of the above 🙂
>I tried this session with no food as well, so I didn’t want to bring the treats out for the line up since I thought I would lose him on the toy. I thought the toy might be better for this game than him stopping at the end of the tunnel to get a treat.>
To build up the value for the tunnel, food might be the winner 🙂 A giant cookie or the treat hugger is a definitely possibility in the early stages. And when he loves the tunnel, it will be easy to bring the toy back into it.
>. What are your thoughts on little dogs & scrunched up long tunnels? I always thought that the bumps from a scrunched up tunnel might interfere with a small dogs feet, so I always extend them all the way. >
I agree – always extended, no scrunching! We want to protect their feets!!
>I think the 20 foot tunnel may be long for Lew. I have a 15 foot but it is dark blue. I may need to try it out and see if Lew cares about the color/darkness.>
Definitely try the 15 footer because he will see dark tunnels in future trials – but start it straight so it is easy to see through and not like running into a dark cave 🙂
Great job here!!
Tracy
