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Good morning! The tunnel exits looked fun!
>Definitely more used to Ripley who lets me get away with more and I forget Vibe is still a baby and needs much more connection.>
Yes, baby dogs need soooooo much connection and adults are happy with far less because they know so much more about this crazy game 🙂
The session with the tunnel looked good!
He is turning a little better to his right than to his left, but that might be a product of timing of the verbal and the shoulder turn to the next line. On a lot of the left exits, you were facing straight when he entered so even if the verbal was on time, he exited a little wide (like 1:36 and 2:08 and 2:43 for example). On the right turn exits, you were turning your shoulders and decelerating along with the verbals so those were really nice exits!Gorgeous connection on the GO at the tunnel exit at 1:47 and 2:01 all the ay through the wrap wing, he drove it to really well. Compare to 1:51 where you were looking ahead on the tunnel exit so he was not sure where to go. You got closer to the wing at 2:07 which totally helped but he still slowed down to sort it out. Increasing connection as he exits the tunnel (especially when you are feeling the pressure of not being as far ahead 🙂 ) will help him zip right past you to the wing. You can see it at 2:25 where you were more connected so he had no questions about finding the wing.
>I am purposefully keeping the toy in my hand (and it’s a big one) just to start to help him learn to listen and do the thing even with the toy in the picture since we had a bit of an issue with staring at the toy at his baby class last week>
He certainly was not staring at the toy here at all, good boy! Do you have video of the session where he was staring at it or struggling to ignore it? I am curious to see if we can figure out why he is so drawn to it because usually he is quite excellent about ignoring toys while working.
>took a minute in here to ask you a question (in the video) about arousal modulation and would love your input. >
Thank you for the question! Losing the sit in that moment might be more about making too big of a deal about the control of the sit in that situation, adding pressure which turned into overarousal/frustration/conflict.
Add in that he is an adolescent and it is easy to tip into different arousal states when they are asked to stop moving (sit) in a situation where everything about it elicits a moving behavior. And if it becomes a recognizable pattern (hose sit hose sit hose sit), you might see the sit disappear as the arousal state shifts (not all patterns work in our favor LOL!) And continuing to try to get the sit is where adolescents in particular will sit less and less, in the moment and in future sessions.
So what to do to optimize and center the arousal? Don’t make a ‘thing’ out of the sit – less control, more fun & movement 🙂 The sit behavior is not what indicates arousal state – the responses to cues (latency, accuracy, etc) are what help indicate that. Switch up what you ask him for in terms of getting more hose time: a trick, a line up, a sit, leg weaves if he knows those, letting him offer what he wants to offer (I often ask a dog “are you ready?” which can elicit them offering something) and sometimes not asking for anything at all, just playing in the hose then going back to the tunnel game. Not asking for a behavior is key – it is great to sometimes just play in the hose and not have to work while playing in the hose.
That will keep it exciting fun, in a happily unpredictable way where he gets some agency in what happens, no pressure, and no anticipation of having to keep doing a sit. And it accomplishes your goal of helping maintain arousal states you like without accidentally tipping him into overarousal by focusing on a single behavior which might be counterproductive.
>just want to help him stay in or near that optimal state without unnecessary frustration and being fair to him.>
From what the neuroscientist geniuses tell us, a young adolescent can’t stay in that optimal state for very long at all (and the part of the brain that controls the sustained attentional state is not fully formed yet) – they slip slide all over that YD curve 🙂 So sometimes just letting him play in the hose is a lovely mental release and decompression from the expensive arousal state work. But if the hose play is also work, then there is no release or decompression and you can see overarousal instead of the desired centering of arousal.
Let me know what you think! Nice work here!
TracyGood morning! He got so big, looks like a grown up now! Yay!
>he has about 0% food drive after trying 100’s of different treats. Obsessed with toys though.>
This is actually pretty normal with Border Collies at this stage. We can gradually introduce the concept of food as a reward by first making food part of the ‘work’ (it looks like he love to ‘work’ in the form of training and getting a toy). So to build up food drive, you can ask him do do a fun work thing (around a wing, for example) then ask him to eat a good cookie that he likes in other situations (it is still ‘work’, it is not a reward) and when he eats the cookie: he gets more work and the toy.
It looks like this session in the video below, where you can see at the beginning of the session a young BC was obsessing on the toy and the work, and didn’t want to do anything for a food reward. She just kept moving, offering work, wanting the toy.
So we want to a different structure: around the wing, tossed a treat, convinced her to eat it as part of her work… then TOY party!
She did it on the flat first (cookie then treat) but then in the same session adding wing wrap – treat – toy. The immediately brought up the food drive to be able to use food in training. As you know, food is useful as a reward and also useful for arousal regulation!Here is the video:
I think the set point is going well! Yes, everything happens really fast with him but I think he might need a slightly longer distance – do you remember how long this was? I think 6 feet between jumps will be ideal for him when we add the moving target game to this, after his stay is super solid.
He did a great job with that stay as you put the toy down! It looks like he was really working hard to not move because he loves that toy. The next part of the stay element is to have you place it another 10 feet further away and also ave you face the direction he is going rather than facing him. I am betting you were facing him to help hold the stay for now, so if that is what he needs then that is what you should keep doing (the stay is IMPORTANT!) and we will gradually get you facing forward and not facing him.
(And hello to the cat who also had lovely striding LOL!)
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
The set point went well, and I think this will be the correct distance. Right now, with the stationary reward and the MM pretty close, he is focusing his hind end more on slowing down so he is not quite powering through the jumps yet. But as soon as the MM is further away (15 feet or more) and when you add the moving target (dragging toy), he will get more power through it and we will see more of his jumping organization. So you can definitely add the MM being a lot further away (his stay looked good!) And when you are feeling comfy moving more, you can add in the moving target game 🙂>the last rep which he did more stepping through the jumps.>
That was him sorting out how to decelerate into the MM.
The wind in your hair also looked good! He found the jump with no problem at all. Yes,yYou can move the wing a bit further from the jump each time you try it so he drives ahead of you more. And you can use a forward verbal (that you would use to indicate running a straight line) as he exit the wing to accelerate to the jump. And as soon as your ankle is happy again, you can add more of your motion too 🙂 and the toy!
Great job here!
Tracy
Ouch, that definitely sounds locked up but I am glad the chiro was able to put everything back where it belonged and it was not an injury. And I can see disc being the culprit: I don’t even do rollers with a few of my dogs because of the way they slam their bodies to get the disc.
That is good news about the class potential! Keep me posted!
Tracy
Good morning!
>He did get pretty worked up by StrykR barking on leash so it was hard for him to think. But he stayed with me and tried.>
This is a good outcome for a first try at it! You can work StrykR first on whatever the exercise is, then PoweR gets a turn, then if he sticks with you he can continue. But if not, no problem, StrykR gets a turn 🙂 Your instructor can keep track of the turn length so it doesn’t go too long, but it will be a good way to have more and more engagement from PoweR.
The Find My Face game went well – he seemed surprised when you first turned away! He got a little sniffy too – it was hard to know if it was because there were really good food smells, or if the game was mentally challenging (or both :)) But either way, he worked through it was was able to re-engage. You can add your movement of walking back and forth to this, so he has to really come find you 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
He is doing really well! The volume dial at the start line is more than tugging – you can be asking for a trick then tug then a trick then tug etc as you move to the line, as that helps optimize his arousal & focus.>maybe the week after that I can try the hidden toy, remote reward thing. Or I could just do it at home.>
At home, you can start the remote reinforcement with the small steps of food & cookies left behind on a reward station and he moves with you away from it. Separately from that, you can run sequences with a toy in your pocket (empty hands) and see how he does. I think he will be fine with it.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
>Any tips for solidifying a start line stay?>
I do lots of reinforcement, in the form of releasing before the dog breaks then rewarding, as well as throwing back lots of cookies/toys to the dog when she is in the stay. Build up duration very gradually so she has a ton of success.
> if doing NFC or run thrus – short sequences and then a party, if I don’t have a totally dependable start line, should I start with a slign shot instead and then once in the ring after some high arousal successes do a start line not where the actual start line is so further away from distractions and party?>
Yes – for now, do NFC runs without a stay right near the crowd. That is too hard. You can ask for a stay deeper into the ring later in the run, but only after the stay is very successful in training classes and at home.
> I really want her start line to be bombproof but I don’t want to create stress around it, and I definitely don’t want to run a sequence if I have asked for it and she breaks. >
Right – we don’t want the conundrum of asking for a stay then having to figure out what to do if she breaks. So bring stays into the picture first in training or in class and reward lots! Then after she has had successful NFC runs without a stay, you can do NFC and ask for a stay near a jump somewhere away from the crowd and see how it goes!
Tracy
Hi!
>I have an opportunity to try an FEO run with Skizzle next week…at an ASCA trial that’s close by. >
Exciting!
>I plan to try pattern games and a bit of the volume dial outside the ring while the first trial is running. >
Bring high value foods, anything new and slightly mind-blowingly delicious 🙂 And start as far from the ring as needed to help teach him about the environment.
>Then, I will try pattern games before we’re on-deck, then move into the volume dial when we’re on-deck. >
This is a good plan, and he will give you feedback about how he feels in the moment so be prepared to switch gears 🙂
>Then, once we enter the ring, a running start and try 3-5 obstacles – play, play, play. >
Before you start a run, ask if he can play – using a long, favorite toy, start swinging it around for him to chase and grab. That will tell you what the next steps are. If he can play? Cool, you have a reinforcement! Then maybe run into a tunnel then play more. Then maybe tunnel-jump then play more. Make it all about play and not about obstacles. If it is high first exposure to a trial environment, he might not ‘recognize’ sequencing or obstacles (this is normal) so you can focus on just playing 🙂 and making the time in the ring into a fun party.
>I will opt-out if Skizzle can’t give me any attention outside the ring before our turn. This is a real possibility.>
Perfect! Skizzle will let you know. And since. The primary goal is having a good time, you can keep it as easy and fun as possible 🙂
>Am I on the right track?>
Yes! Seems like you are prioritizing his engagement and fun, which is great 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
The wing-tunnel game went really well – I also think the game started off too easy for his level of brilliance 🙂 You can totally start the wing 2 feet from the tunnel for the very first rep 🙂 no need to start it far away then move it in gradually, especially on his home turf where he is not also balancing environment challenges.
My only suggestion is to hold him next to you, and let him hear the verbal a few times before the two of you start moving. That will make the verbals really strong and independent without any reliance on where your body is positioned or turned to.
I think he only had one error here which is great! An error or two is actually useful for him, in terms of processing – getting it right 100% of the time and not as informative as getting it right 90-95% of the time, because the ‘nope, that was not how the reward gets to play’ is useful info when you deliver it happily like you did.
When you get a chance, he is ready for the advanced level of this game 🙂
>not that he would repeatedly do a short sequence and then run to the hose on the other side of the field in his baby dog class at Power Paws last time we went – whoops!>
Ha! Of course LOL!!
>but he sure remembered where the hose was).>
Behold the power of classical conditioning! The hose must have made a big impact 🙂 Fun!
Wind in your hair is going well – your connection was really strong and he drove ahead beautifully (and seemed to be successfully NOT running to the hose without a cue :))
As you work on this, you can adjust the start wing position so it is closer to the line you have to run. That way, as you do the FC and move up the line he doesn’t see a lateral position from you and think that is the direction he needs to be going. On the first side, he was exiting the wrap towards you because of the line then finding the line. On the other side , it was positioned better so he had a much better line to the jump after the wing.
The next step for this game is to *not* have the placed toy as the lure: you carry something to throw, and throw it as soon as you see him looking forward to the line (no need to wait until he takes the jump).
In a seminar setting, you can have someone else holding it and when he looks forward, that person starts jogging/running forward and dragging it, so he drives ahead to a moving reward. I mention this because a very common seminar game is getting the youngsters to drive MILES ahead of the handler: and ideally we don’t rely on lures for that, plus with all that speed built up I don’t want the pups to splat their shoulders trying to stop for a ‘dead’ toy. A person running and dragging it is a fun, safe way to reward it.
Smiley face: he had a couple of questions at first about driving around the wing back to the tunnel: he went to the wing then looked at you as if asking: now what, human? So you can break it down a little to be more on the line to the tunnel when he exits the wrap (and less lateral). That would mean positioning yourself between the wing and tunnel so as he is approaching the wing, he sees you decelerating/rotating and driving right back to the tunnel.
For the race tracks/soft turns: add more connection to help him look forward at the line and not up at you. At :55 and 1:00 on your right side and 1:15 & 1:21 & 1:42 on your left side
And when you point forward to the wing as he exits the tunnel, he drives out wide and looks at you (1:13, 1:19).
I grabbed some screenshots so you can see how you looking forward & ahead of him causes him to check in to see what the line is:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1fOHzt8zczXaZXl8UVv7KrGInORJyU-k9x-OG6aiiDek/edit?usp=sharing
So for the race tracks, emphasize looking directly at him rather than forward or pointing forward – that all get him looking at the line and not at you 🙂
>I might work ahead over the next week to try to make sure he’s as successful as possible in his baby day.>
You can work ahead but don’t cram 🙂 He is ready! I am sure one of what Taner presents will be easy for him and some of what Taner presents will be hard 🙂 But that is all good! The best prep will be to give him a 2 day training rest in the 2 days before the seminar, so he is fully rested and ready (and not mentally depleted at all).
And if there is anything you see at the seminar that might guarantee failure or is too hard? Break it down to set up success – you are great with that.
>we just played tug, did some retrieve and some jump to tunnel or tunnel tunnel jump 2-3 obstacles at 8″ to make sure he was comfy in the environment.>
I am sure he was happy and engaged and comfy 🙂 And I am sure that he ignored all the people to work the you 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
>For the set point I am trying to figure out if I might be able to start that in the basement. He would probably need 6 feet between the jumps but I am not sure if the MM would be far enough out. Does that matter for the 1st time?>
Yes, I think 6 feet will be the right distance for him. For the first time, you can have the MM closer and it will be fine – that first session is really just an introductory session. Then when you take it outside, you will have more room to put the MM further away.
>Also for the wrap vs tunnel do you think my baby tunnel in the basement might be ok to start with too?>
Absolutely! The baby tunnel will be perfect 🙂
Have fun!
TracyGood morning!
>the lazy part of the one game. As soon as you said that I am like that is perfect
>Ha! I am a BIG fan of anything I can be lazy about haha!
He did really well with the verbal session here!
And while we are being lazy 🙂 The only thing to add here is holding his collar while you say the verbals (with him lined up facing the cone) – say the verbal 3 or 4 times then let go of his collar. That will get him going to the wrap without you even needing to move your hands 🙂 That will build nicely into the first ‘proofing’ game that can also be done without you needing to run.Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
The jumping element of the set point is looking really strong, so we can focus on the stay element. He is speedy so we definitely want a stay!I think the presence of the MM along with the jump setup spiraled him into super high excitement at first, but then the rewards thrown back to him helped clarify things for a few reps.
Then when he was breaking the stay – I think he was associating your arrival at the MM with the release, meaning you were releasing as soon as you got to he MM so he started releasing when you got to the MM. Clever pup! Associative learning is fast and powerful (for better or for worse 😂)
To help him hold the stay and not anticipate the release, mix up when and where the release happens for now so the only thing that predicts the release is the verbal and not where you are or if you stop or move. Sometimes the release is while you are moving up the line. Sometimes you stop at jump 2 and throw a reward back to him. Sometimes you got to the MM but throw a reward back to him. And sometimes you go to the MM and stop and praise… then release. That way the arrival at the MM doesn’t get paired with the release.
>I think most of them were excited barks and maybe a few were anticipatory/frustrated barks?>
All of the above? Teenage dogs don’t even know why they are barking half the time LOL!! So he was excited and happy and mad that he had to stay but thrilled to be playing LOL
Great job! Fingers crossed for decent weather… I have been out at sunrise to be able to train at all this summer. So hot!!!
Tracy
Hi! I totally agree that foundation is the most important thing, and she is only a year old: the perfect age for starting these next steps. These sessions went really well!!
Looking at the set point:
Her stay is coming along so nicely! Yay!>I have apparently only stood in front of her asking for a sit stay. I’ll work on that also.>
Ah yes, lining up at your side will be useful.
She looked good with the set point here – Do you think you can lead out all the way to the Manners Minder before releasing (without damaging the lovely stay)? That will help prepare her for when we add the moving target.
And separately, you can work on her holding the stay while the moving target goes to the ground, then releasing to it. We will combine the 2 games when she is ready.
>We also did some left/right wraps with a toy in my sending hand to refresh the concept of being able to ignore the toy until cued (even when the cue is very late!).>
The left & right refresher session went well and your markers were really good! I think she told us that the left turns were HARD and you needed to be pretty perfect with connection – all of the bloopers were to the left turn, when you were a little less connected . So for now, be super connected on the sends into lefts, over-exaggerating the connection. When you did that, she found the lefts nicely! The right turns are much easier for her, so you didn’t need to show the exaggerated connection there.
Great job!!
Tracy
Good morning and welcome!
OMG how fun, a Ridgeback!! I love hounds 🙂 and you will see hounds throughout the demos (whippets and lurchers). They are so fun! And I am glad you are feeling excited again 🙂 Roxy sounds fantastic and looks great on the video.
>That said, it means we might be missing a few assumed foundational skills or named skill ideas you taught in that course (that I’ve already caught wind of watching this week’s videos). >
No worries! If there is a name to something that doesn’t ring a bell, just ask 🙂 And we can build in anything missing that will help these games.
>So, I might have some questions as I go along and need to work out what we already do that might be a bit different and how to adjust….>
Ask all the questions! That is what we are here for 🙂
>Roxy does single jumps and tunnels (I’m still only jumping 12″ but am probably ready to move her to 16′ soon). >
She is only 13 months and a large breed, you can keep 12” for a little bit longer to let her body mature (and her brain mature too :))
>And can do short combos of 2-3 things without a lot of independence (me moving with her close to jump or a Treatntrain at the end of a set of obstacles. >
Very cool! We will now add in more independence so there is a nice balance of her seeing close up handling as well as her getting to do stuff on her own.
>I hadn’t started commands for wraps before the pre-games >
The pre-games are an easy way to attach them to the behavior, since she is good at wrapping a barrel. And she had to move away from the cookies to get the cookies 🙂
It was a great session on the video! She is gorgeous! To attach the verbals more strongly, one suggestion: have her wear a collar and be closer to the barrel, so you can gently hold a collar while you say the verbals 3 or 4 times. Then you can let her go, so she is not seeing hand motion and hearing the verbals at the same time (her brain will prioritize the hand motion and not the verbal). But if you hold her, say the verbals while holding her, then let her go – she will blast to the barrel without needing any motion which creates great understanding and more independence
>and for rears I use left and right (but I haven’t started that with her at all and I can tell from one video that for that’s just a more general directional for you.)>
Left and right for me are 90-degree turns, so they are relatively collected and not as collected as a wrap. So the left and right can be used for rear crosses or regular crosses or post turns, because they cue the dogs to turn left or right on a pretty tight collection.
>It’s a bit awkward bc the heat index was something stupid like 105 today so we’re in a hallway.>
The hallway was a FAR better choice than being out in the gross heat and humidity!
I agree, she did great with the moving target – she is a powerful girl already! And it is already getting her head position where we want it: down on the line and not up at you. Focusng on the line promotes eve more speed and great jumping mechanics, so I am happy with what she did here (along with the impulse control of holding the stay :))
>She’s got somewhat thrilling toy/tug drive (compared to most RR not most agility dogs ha) but she doesn’t like a totally dead toy on the ground and of course she loves food more then anything. >
She does have lovely toy drive! And my guess is tha she wants that toy to move so she can chase it and track it. That is the fun part for her LOL!! Dead toys are probably dullsville for her. I don’t use very many dead toys anyway (for that reason, and also because I don’t want the dogs splatting there shoulders to get a dead toy). So we can use moving toys like the one you had here, and is we do need to place a reward, it can be a food reward in a bowl or a manners minder.
>She is doing some switching toy to food and back if the food is mid-value (which I’ve never been able to do before). Understands and is somewhat obsessed with the TnT.>
This is all great!!! And she might also like some of the crazy fur toys that we use in flyball, like raccoon pelts attached to bungees 🙂 It sounds like her food-toy balance is developing beautifully.
Great job here! I am looking forward to see more!
Tracy
Good morning!
>We are seeing the chiropractor this morning – hoping it’s something minor.>
Keep me posted! I have been thinking about him!!
>We have played find my face before and he remembered that when we tried it last night. I also started refreshing him on his remote reinforcement marker since we have not used that in a while. I did that with food and a toy.>
Awesome! You can refresh the remote reinforcement without leaving the house 🙂 You can put his rewards on a counter in the kitchen, then go into a different room, do a thing or two, then mark and run back to the kitchen for the rewards. And you can extend the remote reinforcement concept by moving to rooms further and further from the kitchen, as well as doing more stuff in each room 🙂
> He has not been in a group class since he was a puppy – once adolescence hit, there were too many people and too many dogs way too close to him in tight spaces. He has been working hard all winter on neutrality and minding his business, and has made huge progress, so I may be able to look for a class where we can use that setting as NFC to get comfortable in a class setting and not “do” the class.>
Ooh, I like this! He *does* need to be in a group environment because it has so many opportunities for training with environmental challenges that are so hard to recreate elsewhere. And a big yes – you don’t want to DO the class as in running courses, you want to train the dog as in giving him what he needs to thrive in that environment.
So the real question is… who is teaching a class that you can talk to about making it happen for him? There are lots of great instructors in your area so I am confident you’ll find a good fit. Rule out any pain issues before you start that though, because if something hurts his brain won’t have the bandwidth to handle all of the environment challenges in a class. I do full sports assessments at this age for my big dogs (radiographs, hands on evals, gait analysis, etc) so it is a good opportunity to look at anything you haven’t done yet with him.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
