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Oh no! I hope the trial stuff gets easier!!! At least you got to do a fun seminar! This class runs until May 15th 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Tunnel threadles – he was readying things well, but like you mentioned, not moving at his usual speed.
>> I didn’t quite have it down & Indy could tell. I think I was really demotivating him.>>
I think it was a deceleration question: not enough motion. You can spread things out so there is more motion for you both (15 to 18 feet between the wings and the tunnel should help get more acceleration, and feel free to add even more distance depending on how much you want to run 🙂 You didn’t have a lot of room to go fast, so he was questioning if he should read your motion as decel or if he should stay in extension. Since we don’t want to dilute the deceleration, spreading the distances out will help! You were trying to compensate with more arm movement but I think that blocked connection and turned your shoulders away from the line, so he slowed down waiting for more info (like at 1:30)
Lateral lead outs: These went really well! And using the mat helped to get him to stay and on different angles. The harder angle a 3:05 took him a moment to read, but then he got it nicely and the other reps looked good too, with you on both sides of the jump and also with you adding crosses after jump 1. Super!
He is a little confused about the release: you are moving at the same time (arm movement and shoulder leaning forward), so if you don’t say the release and move anyway (like at 2:47) he will release.
To avoid this confusion, you can get to position, raise your arm, stand still, then release. That should clarify for him that is the verbal release he needs to wait for, not just the movement.
The zig zags looked good! Definite improvement! You can add the bars to them from the next zig zag lesson (one end of the bar on the jump cup, the other on the ground). You had very clear cues (he only missed one, then you made the cue bigger) so as the bars go in, you can keep those really big obvious cues with arms/shoulders and feet to help him find the line.
He did well with the serp versus the tunnel too! I think he is ready to see you walking into position and releasing as you are walking, like he would see on a course (the cue coming as you are moving).
For both the tunnel and the serp cue, you can separate the verbal release from the movement. It looks like he thinks the movement is part of the release here too, because all of the releases had the arm movement. And the one time you did the arm movement and did’t say the word… he released (5:44). I can see his argument here LOL! So, to clarify it – get your shoulders into position for the cue you want to give, wait for a heartbeat or two, then say the release. As you add movement to it (moving forward along the line) you can have your shoulders already in position and release as you are moving. You are moving for several steps before the release in that case, so they won’t get paired accidentally like they do when we release and move at the same time.
Great job here!!
Tracy
Good morning!
That is the thing about dog training… we keep learning and learning 🙂 I like your plan to keep him in FEO for a while to kind of ease him into the harder trial environments!
Have fun!
Tracy
Hi!
Generally when we get the freezing on the start line, it is either too much pressure or something is ouchy.
So for the ouchy possibility, see if you can get her into a massage or Chiro to make sure nothing is bothering her or tight or sore.
For the pressure possibility: she has been doing a lot of things that an be pressure games lately: lots of jump grids from stays (that is a HARD visual when sitting in front of a grid!) as well as the station work and the harness stuff… so even if it is not all stays, there might be a pressure build up and her brain needs some time to let it go. So take all stay behavior out of her life (all of it, that is HARD for us humans) for a week or so, and just do silly fun stuff race tracks and running through tunnels. (No jumps though, in case there is an ouch factor in play). Then come back to adding some fun stays back in (like in front of her favorite tunnel or jump :)) for short easy games. You can toggle the hard stuff back in, but over-balance it for now with easy peasy fun run run run stuff because, well…. Adolescence 🙂 Adolescent dogs are far more susceptible to feeling the pressure and we see stuff like freezing when there is pressure.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
The tandem were a little late on some reps and on some you turned your feet to the new line to early. Good job just staying in motion on those.To help make the tandems less late, you can call her name before she enters the tunnel to put her into handler focus so she exits looking for you. Then even if you are a stride late, she will still be ready to receive the info. The last one was well-timed, especially coming after the big race track! Yay!
>>However using go instead of directionals for the racetrack parts really seemed to help her out – she just flew on those parts and no pop rock explosions ensued. Even got a tunnel threadle.>>
Yes, the go is really stimulating and fun and those race tracks do have a lot of extension, so she really liked the go cue and the running 🙂
For now, do more of the race tracks and less of the turning and hard handling stuff (see next post for why) so she can just have the joy of relatively mindless running for a week or so 🙂
Nice work!
TracyHi!
>> I got totally behind on my videos the last 4 weeks.
You did get a lot of videos posted, so that is really great! Originally you were not too sure about getting any posted, and you did a lovely job getting a lot of games posted 🙂
>>Not sure if I should repeat MAX 3 as a worker or just keep going and finish Max 3 on my own.>>
Keep going then join up in MaxPup 4 (after the summer :))
>> My question is do you suggest another course I could take that I can send videos and get feedback for Seren. >>
MaxPup 4 is the next one, and it also hits on getting ready for trialing. I don’t have a start date for it yet, stay tuned!
>>he would do a few obstacles and then go visit ring crew and after restart he would do a few more and then go sit near score table and refuse to rejoin me on course.>>
Yes, he looked stressed in the video. I love your idea of doing a TON of FEO in CPE… smaller trials, less pressure, more fun. He is really young so you want to make it fun fun fun fun 🙂
>> At home and at class he is fine and loves training. >>
Rewards are very visible and predictable in those environments. Trials are radically different and unpredictable, so getting him used to the environment with FEO runs will really help.
> need to definitly be aware of his mental state and what he can handle at all times.>
Yes! It is hard for young dogs to go from training to trialing, so lots of toy-in-the-ring and not trying to Q will really help. Also, listen to the video with the sound up and your eyes closed: holy COW who was screaming in the other ring? What was the banging (teeter??) The noise was A LOT and I am sure that affected him too. He might not be ready for noisy 2 ring trials where people scream LOL!!!
Keep me posted 🙂
TracyHi! That is GREAT news about Grady!! So fun!!!
>>I do have question regarding the teeter…both Cassie and Lori are fans of her learning a stopped teeter. Grady has a running teeter, has only been called on it a few times. One time was a fly off when I truly believe he thought it was dog walk.>>
I vote with Cassie and Lori 🙂 The stopped teeters have clearer criteria about exactly where to go and exactly when to leave the board. That clarity makes it easier to learn and easier to reward, so the dogs get faster and happier doing them. And it is easy and fun to train a stop on the end of the board, she will love the extra meatballs 🙂
Tracy
That is fantastic! Sounds like she was a perfect girlie 🙂 I am not surprised, it sounds like things have been coming together really nicely 🙂 Great job with all of the games and keep me posted as she starts doing the grown-up stuff too 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>>There is a lot of really good intentioned peer pressure to take advantage of mat time opportunities >>
So true about the peer pressure! I like that they recognize his talent, so now they just need to let him grown up a little 🙂
>>Anyway, we are going to try me running around him in recalls and your suggestions for how I catch him after recalls and are arranging to practice alternating recalls with a more seasoned calmer dog at practice>>
Perfect! Keep me posted!
Looking at the video:
>>1 I don’t know if adding the tire is ok? So we just tried a couple – he did hit his feet on it once so maybe not a good idea?>>
Yes the tire can totally go into the grid! He had a toe nail click probably because he was slowing down to the get to the reward, but other than that he did well! You can raise it a little (to 8 inches) to get more hind end involvement.
>>2 tried accordion grid – he had just upgraded to 5 ft grid 2 sessions ago so I wasn’t sure if he would struggle with the larger spacing but seemed ok – didn’t bounce the 11 ft gap but did bounce the 8 ft gap>>He did really well here! You can switch the jump bar on jump 1 to jump 3, and put the bump from #3 onto 1 – that way if he has an organization oopsie on the first jump, he doesn’t drop the bar. And, you can also add a little more height on jump 3 – that will help with striding too. He didn’t bounce 11 feet because there was no elevation to the bar so he was just running. So add a 6 inch bar to #3 and if he is fine with it… go to 8 inches and if that is fine, go to 10” 🙂 We will start adding more challenge!
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
Gotta love the training rings at trials! Was it UKI?
>> You mentioned an A frame training method for littles. I tried the box method for my 25 pounder and it worked fine but really did not work for my 12 pounder. >>
I use a mat target method, but also for the littles I teach them to lightly jump the apex and also to focus forward on the exit. Because littles often have different shoulder structure than, say, Border Collies 🤣 we need to get them looking down more and without lifting their heads. The box can work for that two, but the striding over the apex is critical and so is a target to head to after the box when they exit the a-frame (usually 12 to 15 feet away from it).
Have fun on your trip!!!
TracyHi!
I am glad you are not in a lot of pain anymore!! Yay!!!
Looking at the videos:
Layering foundations looked really strong!
You can throw the toy sooner , as soon as she looks at the jump. If you wait til she gets to the jump, she will be looking at you (nothing else to look at there LOL!)She didn’t have trouble passing the tunnel to layer when you made the entry visible (yay!) but the challenge at :51 was too hard when you were not near the tunnel entry after the jump. Good job breaking it down after that so she can find the entry, but she needed more reps of that to get the full understanding of the turn to the tunnel since you can’t quite sprint up there yet 🙂
The Rear Crosses are coming along! They will be easier when you are back to full running, because that is what was causing any questions: when you tried to get to the RC line after starting with the wing wrap before the tunnel, walking through it made the info too delayed. But when you started with yourself closer (like sending her to the tunnel so you could be showing the RC line), she read them like at :32 and 1:05 to the right.
She is a little better to her right than to her left, so you can place a reward out for the left turns and also add the big pressure on the line like at 2L14 and 2:33. Try not to add big arms because that actually turned her attention toward you – the rear cross diagonal will help her turn away and a placed reward on the left turns will give her a good focal point.
Great job here!
TracyHi!
>>I took a chair arm rest to the ribs (11/10 would not recommend, makes laughing very hard and our househould is all about laughter).>>
OMG!! I am glad you are both OK!
Looking at the videos:
>>which surprisingly came up in class a week ago and he ran past the jump when I was ahead of him>>
Yes, it is a common young dog behavior: going fast but not always managing the jumps too 🙂
>>but he is surprisingly fas>>
He has gotten faster in recent weeks, and his body shape has changed too – more of a grown up sportswear body. Very fun!!!
I think the session went really well here (only one blooper where he needed one more step to the tunnel). Since the class environment is more arousing and with more room between obstacles (similar to what the trial environment will be) you can use your yard to add more arousal so he is working in the same/similar internal environment. Get him tugging, have him do the tunnel 2 or 3 times in a row, get him wild, then run the sequence. That will really challenge him to find the jump while you run!
And, at home, you can soften the connection up a bit to add challenge – instead of looking directly at him as you run, you can kinda sorta look towards him and a little ahead. That is a style of connection he will find harder to see on course… and when he is more stimulated in class, it is harder to ‘find’ the connection. So a little less connection can prepare him! But at the actual class, give him BIG connection to help him out. We want to prepare him but not set him up to fail 🙂
The lateral lead outs looked great! Yay! The best part is the stay, of course, because that allows you to go anywhere. His commitment looked really strong too 🙂 and he read all of your handling on either side of the 2nd jump really well.
You can change his angle a bit to add more challenge (and also reflect what we are seeing on course nowadays) – rather than facing the jump as he did here (which is correct per the instructions) you can make it more challenging by putting him on a slice facing jump 1 (slicing over it towards jump 2). That has become a VERY popular lead out recently so we might as well show it to him 🙂
>>Thanks for nerding out with me on the neuroscience/dog behavior intersection.>>
Thank YOU!! I love learning more about it. And thank you for the paper and the info on Erin Hecht! I tried to sign my dogs up for stuff at the Canine Cognition Lab at Duke but never heard back from them 😭
>> Its constantly on my mind and I’m compiling relevant research, I’d love to connect about it when something clear and cohesive comes out of it>>
Yes for sure! You bring a different perspective and it is really fascinating!!!
Great job here!
TracyHi!
>>they are proving to be super hard for us>>
If stays feel hard to train… it is because they are hard to train 🙂 They are one of the most complex behaviors in agility!
When there is a struggle, I look at the old school things that help us clean up the behavior: timing (of marking the behavior), criteria, reinforcement (rate and placement).
Basically… I think if we change a detail or two on each of these, you will easily have your stay. Things are a little grey in some aspects and you might be lumping a bit too 🙂
Looking at the 2 sit videos:
The plank helps, but there was still not enough success even with the plank. Looking at the 3 things:
– for timing, make it your job to reinforce before he moves. And this means you must live by the 2 failure rule: 2 failures total in the session (there were lots more than that in each video). Each step forward of the front foot where you went back and adjusted him were failures (reinforcement withheld). More on that below
– Criteria – you have defined it but I am not sure he understands it based on the reinforcement. Going back to feed him in position actually dilutes the clarity of the behavior in two ways: trying to feed in position actually promotes foot movement and butt movement as you deliver the food. Also the start and finish of each rep is unclear so he sometimes moves between reinforcement because I don’t think he actually knows the behavior is still in progress. Since criteria is to not move his feet during a sit stay, we will focus on reinforcement to clarify that:
–
– Reinforcement is split into 2 categories for now: rate of reinforcement (2 failure rule, so it was too low here) and placement of reinforcement. Placement is important! We want him to stay ‘over there’ where you left him as you move away, you will need the placement to reflect that. So rather than walk back to him and hand deliver it (which shows the placement of reinforcement as being next to you), you should lead out and use your marker which means it is coming back to you, then throw the reinforcement behind him (that marker is also a release to get the reinforcement).
–
– He doesn’t have to catch the reward, he just turns around to get it. There are other ways to do deliver it separately from you, but a clean marker followed by throwing it behind him will really help. That makes the end of the behavior clearer (also clearer when you release him forward) then the next rep is very clear, because you can cue the behavior and reinforce it again.
–
As you build this up, you will want to get 2 super successful sessions in a row (90% success or better) before changing 1 variable (and only one variable 🙂 ) When you took it out to the yard, you changed multiple variables – added a wing, a jump, being on the grass, releasing forward, leading out without connection, etc) and the sit stay was not quite ready for that so it deteriorated very quickly. The 2 failure rule will remind you if you are moving things along too quickly.>>. I’m curious to know if you think this has more potential and whether I should focus on the down instead of the sit >>
I think the down is a more stable position for him at the moment (might be clearer and also, BCs like downs!) You can and should work on both, but at different rates – the downs right progress more quickly that the sits and that is fine.>>is that he raises his butt like he’s doing a play bow.
That counts as a failure, so that is the warning light that the session is too hard and to make sure you get the reinforcement to him sooner.
>>maybe I can correct the play bow if I notice it after I have led out.>>
That is a slippery slope 🙂 So stay connected on the lead outs, watch his butt, and get a TON of reinforcement thrown back behind him before his butt goes up. Also – it is entirely possible that he doesn’t even realize his butt has gone up, so it might get very confusing!
>>We’re still working on down posture. I think I can clean that up pretty easily though.>>
I thought his down posture was fine here! He was excited but holding the down.
>>I watched a podcast about start button behaviors for agility and the trainer was using her arm and leg back as the start button.>>
Start button is a cue to line up at your side, 🙂 and that is fine… but will only be reliably effective as part of a stay cue if you also work on the timing, criteria, and reinforcement.
Let me know what you think of the ideas! I am sure we can get the stay behavior!
Tracy
Yay! Great to hear she got them at a practice jump, where the distractions are even harder. SUPER!!!!
Keep me posted and see you soon in MaxPup 4!
Tracy
Good morning!
She really loves the meatballs 🙂 Yay!!!! She is still building up the love for the teeter, so 2 suggestions to keep her really excited about it:
– straight lines of approach will help her not have to slow down to get on it, so then she will be faster driving up the board. If she has to slow down on even a slight angle, she is likely to not speed up to the top of the board.
– because that teeter is really loud, you can dampen some of it by putting a towel or something on the upside where the board meets the thing holding it up. That way she has to deal with motion, mainly, and not a lot of sound – then when she love the motion, we can add the sound back in : )Good job keep the teeter session short – it is better to do super short sessions and huge amounts of meatballs on each rep 🙂
>She preferred running off the teeter rather than being lifted!>>.
Yes, she was a happy meatball eater on that part too! Fun!
On the lead out video:
>>I discovered that Gingers start line stay is much better when she is further away from the first jump…she took off very quickly on the first rep!>>
She did come in really fast to the first jump on the first sequence here! Yay! I like the start as far back as possible, like at 1:13 where she was up against the ring gating. That happens a lot at trials! And jump grids can help her takeoff with power even when they have to be close to jump 1 (which also happens a lot of trials when it is a tighter space.
The handling went well! To help get the BCs started sooner, you can spread out the jumps so there is 18 feet between them or more – they were close here so that made it harder to get the blinds started. They were maybe one stride late so she read them on landing instead of before takeoff for the pinwheel jump.
On the 2nd rep with the FC, you were actually a little early 🙂 The FC was in progress as she was jumping the first jump, so she correctly came to jump 3. Good girl! You can let her land from 1 then look at 2, then start the FC.
The rest looked really strong with her line commitment!
>>Ginger saw the canine chiropractor today and was adjusted at L6 R, L3 L, and T8 R.
Yay for a good adjustment! And it is something to track: is she always out in the same places? That could indicate a need for strengthening certain spots or an ouchy spot.
>>She thought that her left quads might be slightly different than right. >>
Slightly different, as in larger or smaller? That is definitely something to pay attention too. The vet I take the dogs to actually measures the muscles – equal balance is good! Different sizes could mean she is compensating for some reason (and that can be why she is ‘out’ in spots for the chiro).
>>She has a massage scheduled in about 10 days and I visited with our local canine rehab vet in the event she needs some PT…>>
Perfect!!! You can make an appointment with the rehab vet just as a wellness visit, to get the measurements and see if there are stronger versus weaker spots, as well as get some ideas to strengthen. For example, one of my dogs had a patella issue as a youngster so the rehab vet did measurements (the bad leg was smaller than the good leg, because she was compensating). Then I was given exercises to do and worked up to the legs being balanced and then no more issues 🙂
>>Any recommendations for what course we should do next?>>
The next official class is MaxPup 4, which has more sequencing stuff as well as how. to transition the dogs into the trial ring. It will start later in the summer, to give the dogs time to practice their skills and grown up a little more. You can also try the CAMP class, and her brother can do the hard stuff and she can try some of the simpler skills work! That content is really hard so I don’t recommend a full working spot for any of the MaxPup 3 alums 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
