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Hi!
Sorry for the delay, this ice storm and travel to rural Maryland has messed with my internet!!
>She definitely does this at home too though. Any time she isn’t jumping in full extension her hind legs are tucked. Not something I love seeing, but I’m waiting to see if she rounds out when jumps do go up? >
I think part of it is whippet movement and part of it will be smoother with more experience.
>>not sure wrapping her feet will help since I don’t think the problem was lack of traction between her feet and floor but more the whole floor would move under her foot but I’m willing to try if you have a video of how to do it. >
I don’t think she was slipping but she might not have felt like she could securely grip for takeoff, so she was adjusting to push less. And yes, I do have a video of how to do it 🙂
It’>when I watch the slow mo of Roots on that turf he looks more comfortable there than almost any dirt surface I’ve ever run him on (where I almost always see at least one “skitter” per run).>
I think small dogs on dirt actually have a harder time because variations in the surface are bigger, to them.
>Whoa, tried this this morning and it broke her brain. >
That’s good to know! Makes it easier to add training challenges 🙂 You can start at a much lower volume if that helps her process the distraction.
>Over the winter there’s a group of us that get together once a month or so to set up some international stuff to train on together. The whole point is to be able to talk over various handling options and give each other advice, so just working Beat on this wouldn’t be part of the spirit of the group, but if I can get my act together I might be able to work on some of the outside the ring behavior while others run. >
This is perfect!!
>In the past I’ve found it hard to mentally run the adult dog (Roots) and then bring out the baby, as I have needed the time between turns to reset myself. I’ll just need the self control to do VERY short sequences for Roots and not push my brain too much running him (we could use the confidence boost any way!)>
Yes!! And Beat can do a small piece or a variation. And your training partners can help get you to do it 😉
>After tonight’s discussion, I feel like I need a flow chart for her pre and post run routines!>
A flow chart can help you visualize things for her, and move pieces around based on what happens.
, > But her waiting behavior I feel like is getting worse, as I got some barking at the last trial >
That’s where the engaged chill is key: we need to teach her to be able to be excited, but to just watch, ideally on a loose leash. Teach it at home, separately, til there is a pretty long time between cookies (and minute or so). When you take it places, you’ll want to deliver cookies more rapidly but she will soon enough be able to be chill while you are not engaged with her and not rapid-fire giving treats 🙂
> but where does it cross the line and those things become “entertaining the dog” the entire time? >
Great question! For me, entertaining the dog means I am looking at them, giving cues, delivering treats fast, for an extended period. Exhausting for everyone! Ideally, we have extended periods of engaged chill where I am not giving cues or looking at/talking to the dog. And treats are delivered slowly. But that has to be trained, so you can move it to the top of the priority list 🙂
A> to keep her from rehearsing staring at the next dog coming in, instead of trying to keep her on the toy post run, maybe just get the leash on and get the heck outta dodge far far from the ring to a decompression activity until she can regulate herself a bit better?>
I think leash on and toy play at the end can be pretty simultaneous which will help her stay engaged with you and not with the other dog. That is something to rehearse with your training partners this winter! Beat does a simple sequence, goes to leash & toy… as another dog is entering. That will make things trial-like!
> I’d hate for putting the leash on to become punishing and I could see that happening, and I’m not sure if this just avoids the issue rather than train for it.>
I think getting the leash on and getting out for decompression might be a little punishing and indeed avoids the issue. You can teach her go shove her pointy nose through the leash loop go get more tugging, then have treats right outside the ring too. She’s really a good girl so I think showing her the exit process and rehearsing it will make things easy!
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Omg you were right, that velcro totally sounded like it was right next to you! That was a distraction plus the people nearby – he was a very good pup to stick with the tunnel game!
It also looks like it was hot – bearing in mind that this is his first summer of life, it might take him a bit to acclimate to the heat.
>On the second rep, he was making to dart round the tunnel, I stupidly reached out to him (should have just let him make the mistake), I think i accidentally bent barry’s tail – very slightly – he was very dramatic about it. Poor lad – just overwhelmed by everything i think>
Seeing these 3 videos in a row, I think he got sensitized to grabbing for/stepping on the leash. He felt it yank his neck a couple of times previously, then when you stepped/reached for him, he was super sensitive about it. So… no more dragging the leash in training so you cannot accidentally step on it 🙂 That opens up the opportunity to use food to reward him for moving away from the toy on the ground,ignoring the people, etc. The facility looks fenced wo i don’t think he is going anywhere 🙂
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
This went really well too! He didn’t seem stressed at all, just happy to play a new game 🙂 Nice work mixing up the distance away from the rewards before you marked and ran back – it was unpredictable in a fun way 🙂It was a little unclear as to what the exact marker was – the first word on most reps was “Wow!” but I don’t think that was the marker 😀 so be sure to say the marker first, then you can add in the praise.
Because this went so well, you can add in asking for simple tricks as you move away from the reward station.
Great job!
TracyHi! Thanks for your patience with my ice-storn induced delay. I hate winter!!
This session went well! Your mechanics for the handling were good! When you had connection on the exit of the blind, then pivoted slowly enough to keep connection: perfect! I think there was only 1 spot where you needed more connection and 1 spot where you pivoted too fast, the rest was great.
He definitely enjoyed his victory lap after driving to the toy! You can see if he will bring it to you for a food reward – the toy was not enticing enough. Also, take his leash off so you aren’t tempted to step on it (which can yank his neck). I bet the food reward will help him bring it right back 😀
Nice work!
TracyHi! Sorry for the ice-storm induced delay!!
These sessions went really well! Kudos to you for being able to get both of the barrels on the tunnel rocking horses while wearing a winter coat and boots!!! And great job adding the verbals too. Your connection looked strong as well – he did some looking at you, but I think it was more because he was learning to look ahead after the tunnel even when you were not ahead (and not a connection issue).
The did really well with the threadles and serps! As soon as he realized the treat was already on the target, he drove to it brilliantly. The target placement on the threadles was spot on. The target placement on the first side of the serps was a little too far from the jump, so he was jumping straight more than he was doing the in-then-out of a serp. Your placement on the 2nd side was on a much better line to get the serpy line
Since this went really well, you can start him at different angles to add challenge. And on the easy slice angle here, you can add in moving faster 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
Hi! Sorry for the delay, ice storms that eat the internet are a pain!!!!
Skizzle did great here! Side note: does your shirt say Skizzles? Love it!
He really understood the difference between motion = extension and decel/standing still means collection. Perfect! And he completely ig bored your dad! That was a great rehearsal for when a leash runner grabs his leash at a trial.
He only had 2 qursthons that we can help with:
:
>I probably need more structure around his stays – words or signals or setup props – though he seems to kinda get what I’m looking for here>Yes, that was his main question- he needed more clarity on when he was supposed to stay versus move with you. When you got him to stand and then took a couple of seconds before moving away, that seemed to be the clearest. When you started moving away immediately, he was not as clear about what to do.
So definitely get him settled into position for a few seconds before moving away. You can also add a verbal, such as “stand” (the position which implies the stay as well), or a stay verbal.
His only other question was when you were tugging with him and sometimes stopped tugging and got quiet. I think you wanted him to bring the toy to you? But he was not sure – so in those moments, you can add moreengagement in thr form of encouraging him to come towards you with it.
Great job here!!!
Tracy
Good morning! Sorry for the delay! Dr. Canapp’s East Coast office is in super rural western MD, and of course there was a snow and ice storm yesterday. Eek! But videos are back now, so I am catching up.
I am doing a big happy dance for you and Sprite!!! Should I tell Canapp? He’d be happy to know and he thinks I know everyone so why not continue that trend LOL
>So, entering the ring and line up needs a ton of work. She’s literally too aroused to respond. I think it’s a combo of a weak skill to begin with, excitement to be back and the upheaval with the puppy addition.>
Yes, and big stack of triggers for sure! You can go back to the stuff you did when she was really improving and doing well – basically, MaxPup 4 stuff, but you’ll fly through it because the neural pathways are already there, we just need to reset the arousal.
And Dot’s session went GREAT! Yes, it is hard but you broke it down and had tremendous success. No need to start with the strike a pose position when you can slice the behavior thinner and get success. Yay!
I think early in the session you were too quick to fade the cookie rewards for not immediately diving on the toy, but Dot told ypu and reset really well. By the end, she was able to ignore the toy, offer eye contact, target your hand – massive improvements!!!! She went behind you on the last rep which was the strike a pose position, mainly because that was where the toy was move visible. Having it more in front of you will help her find the correct line.
Great job here! I bet you can add the toy on the ground to the jump, as long as you keep rewarding her stay/ignoring the toy for now.
Tracy
Hi! Sorry for the delay – snow and ice really messes things up!!! Text would work but video would not.
This was a really interesting video (along with your description of her other struggles).
The skill of collection versus extension is going great! You can use a post turn on the wraps but I think it was unrelated to the handling when she didn’t finish the wrap.
I’m curious to do an experiment – repeat this session but use food only, to see what happens. It will help us zoom in on helping her.
Usually when we see a toy-driven pup not want to release from a stay or not want to play tug, a few things could be causing it:
– uncertainty about ignoring the toy/concern about being wrong if breaking the stay (that’s why I want to try a food-only session)– something weird/scary/too much pressure in the environment (maybe something she perceives but we don’t? Adolescent dogs do go through different sensitivity periods)
– something hurts! She might have an ouchy somewhere so she is avoiding controlled explosive movement like releases or tugging, and also doesn’t tug as much in different spots, and doesn’t love collar grabs, etc. So that would be first on my list – a soft tissue person who can check her out, and a chiro, and maybe a regular vet who can check ears, teeth, toes, etc. She might be masking something that only shows up in training – because she can modify regular life stuff so it doesn’t hurt. I have seen this a lot through the years, so definitely dig around and see if anything hurts 🙂
And separately, try a session with soft high value food only, and let’s see what we get! Keep me posted!!! She’s a good girl and giving us good info, we just need to find the answer to the puzzle. If only she spoke English 🙂
Tracy
Hi! Sorry for the delay – ice storms here on my crazy trip to Maryland made the internet go crazy so videos wouldn’t play. Seems good now!
This session went really well! You had some legit play happening, thanks to you keeping that racoon alive 😆 Great job moving it for her to chase and staying really engaged.
The rocking horses went well too. She was thinking SO HARD which is why she was trotting more than running, but that’s great! It sounds like there were some good distractions and she was a super good girl!! She’ll speed up with more practice doing this in a hard environment.
She only had one question, grabbing for the tou rather than going to the barrel near the beginning of the session. I think it was because connection was not super clear, which you fixed on the next reps. Yay! After that, the FCs and spin looked good. Clear connection plus being super consistent with toy markers help her ignore the toy until it is time to party with it.
Great job!!
Tracy
Hi!
How did the trials go? It is fun that she is back in action!!
The minny pinny is looking good, super nice session! It looks like she was very engaged during the training and during the play breaks. Yay! She is very speedy and excited, so the better reps where when you were a little later in using your ‘strike’ toy marker so she didn’t hit the wing if you marked as she was going past it.
She did well with the bumps too! You can bring the bumps in a little closer to each other, maybe 6 inches, so she can bounce the bend more easily.
>I couldn’t rember if she was supposed to sit or not.>
She didn’t have to sit – you can hold her and say the verbal 3 or 4 times, then let go. That makes it easier to attach the verbal separately from movement because she is hearing/processing it before she moves.
She also did well with lawn mower noises in the background!!
>We aren’t ready for the threadle or moving serp stuff yet as she can’t leave a toy on the ground or bring it back. On the regular serp I could maybe add an empty food bowl and cue her bowl marker for the advanced games? Believe it or not, I’ve never used a manners minder.>
Two approaches to this:
Separately from the jump, have a toy on a line that you can place on the ground and reward with cookies for NOT grabbing it until after you mark that she can get it. You can be in strike a pose position and have her target your hand before you tell her to get the toy.And for working on the game with a jump – yes, you can totally use an empty food bowl 🙂 And like with the toy – you can work on getting her to ignore a treat in that bowl by rewarding her with cookies from your hands for ignoring the bowl until you mark that she can have it.
And you can introduce a Manenrs Minder for this too, it is super useful!
>I’m thinking of trying the decal exercise later this week. Sprite could certainly use that one!>
Perfect! Both girls will have fun with it 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
Yucky sessions happen, then we all sleep on it, then it is fine 🙂 Do you have video? Sometimes that reveals little adjustments we can make. Some days, we can’t get things going and that is all good 🙂
>HOWEVER,at the end of the session, my neighbor, behind a tall wooden fence, made LOUD screeching, scraping sounds. She reacted, I started pattern games immediately. She was able to work through it., relaxing after a few reps>
That is SO WEIRD of the neighbor!!! Good for you for going into pattern games, I sure she was very startled!!!
>She’s done that on walks when aggressive sounding dogs pounded on their windows and barking. Heck, I was scared. I carry treats now and scatter …also try no to walk directly in front of their houses.>
This all sounds pretty normal startle responses. If she is able to cope and eat, she can bounce back. Just be sure to not expose her to this regularly, so I like your plan of not walking by their houses and having treats with you. Adolescent dogs definitely go through periods where they are more sensitive, so we want to support them through it but also not put too much pressure on them to have to be in that situation.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
>We have been working on general manners and volume dial stuff. I think it is getting us closer to some understanding. Ringo is better at hanging out near the ring…a semi engaged chill. Still going a little high as we get closer to entering the ring…>
He was doing well waiting – you can add in a some pattern game when you are waiting, to give him a framework to self-regulate. Left to his own devices, he sometimes self-regulates but then sometimes doesn’t (and leaps around or at you). Pattern games scattered during the wait will really help!
>and still a bit wild on the end of run.
I was thinking long and hard about training him to go get his leash….but I don’t think that is going to work for us….I was leaning that way and then this weekend really reinforced that as the leashes were placed in a bucket on a chair…so we need a different pattern/behavior. Still thinking/working on this.>Yes – I think that decision needs to be made sooner rather than later, to stop the rehearsal of it. He might not be biting you, but he is flying at your face which can be dangerous plus judges might call him for it.
For the leash in the bucket – are you concerned that he might accidentally smash the bucket? That is valid. Can you work on him marking it but not grabbing it until you get there and tell him? It is more of a target to go to and not something to grab.
You can also try to get a quick sit before he launches at you, but I think that might also be a band aid and it would be better to train an end of run behavior. You can also see if he will do a spin then a casual heel to the leash? That might be more fun than the spin 🙂
But I think you need to make the decision and train it before trialing again so the behavior doesn’t continue to get built in and rehearsed.
>I was so proud of our Open JWW run…I braved a couple blinds and he read them beautifully!!! His head was pretty close to where it needed to be when we entered the ring!
Heck yeah! The blinds looked awesome!!! Definitely keep doing those, he read them super well and it helps the flow of info, which definitely contributes to the arousal state.
>I am not sure that he likes our line up process because as soon as I walk away, he shakes, I wait for him to sit and then we continue. He is kind of big for me to straddle (LOL) but I do like the way he is focus and comes in to set up.>
He totally does shake, each and every time! It is an arousal reset, so it is not a bad thing necessarily. So if you like the straddle line up, you can step off to the side, let him shake (before you lead out) then after the shake and sit – lead out.
> I wasn’t as brave in my handling…there were more traps on his line…which I need to expect in excellent and I need to trust him more.>
Exactly! The flow will work better with blinds 🙂
>He wasn’t as settled and ready to run as in the prior video. He popped at pole 10 and I didn’t make him redo the poles but I asked for a sit (so we had some jumping here). >
Yes – this is where pattern games will really help too! Note that he was not as settled before the run, and it was day 3, so helping him makes a big difference.
One thing I think needs to be in place is that he can cope with an error without launching at you (like when he popped the poles). Yes, you got him to sit but that was post-launch.
He is doing well with find my face at home, yes? No launching? I think before doing more ‘for real’ runs, you need to bring find my face into the ring for FEO runs where you deliberately disconnect and reward him for finding your face without launching. Otherwise… we get the launching built in and it gets harder to get rid of (like at the end of the run). Plus, especially in Excellent/Masters, judges are more prone to call stuff like that so we definitely want to not give them anything to think about.
>I think we have made progress on his teeter.>
For sure, so much progress! He seems to have a much better idea of what to do. Super!!! Keep adding in being able to move past it so he doesn’t come off it when you are getting ahead. He as more solid when you stuck close, and a little too forward when you were moving ahead.
>. I left in some waiting ringside…not too exciting except when Mardi walked up and Ringo jumped…this continues to be a problem I need to manage better (or eliminate!)>
Pattern games 🙂 Be ready, especially s people move past. I think you were tossing treats to him but that is not the same, we do want some olfaction and changes in head position.
>I do get body slammed at the end…which happened on most of my runs. While this is not desirable, I did feel good that he didn’t try to bite me on any of the end of our runs….>
I think you are getting better at grabbing him but either way – we want a different behavior that doesn’t involve slamming or biting or grabbing 🙂 I think he can learn to mark (stare at :)) the bucket with the leash (or the chair) and wait for the cue to grab it. It will make the end of the run so much smoother!!!
Nice work here! A lot of the pieces are coming together so we can really focus on the smaller pieces that will make it super smooth.
Tracy
Hi!
>I think some of my problem is that it can take a bit to get her to play so if we go out on the floor (in class) to work a skill maybe I should just work the play? to rehearse it more?>
Yes, work the play! Silly noises, chasing the toy, etc – without thinking ahead to the skill training you want to do. Get the play and engagement, as that is more important than the skill in that moment 🙂
>I’m honestly feeling like her skills at this level are pretty decent, like she gets it but she’s also the type to just want to work and get food. She’s more task oriented and that’s on me. I KNOW how much she loves to play and tug cuz I see it with the other 2.>
I agree, she is doing great with her skills! She might associate work with food more because you lean into using food more – it feels like being task-oriented, but I think she is reading the context cues: toy is a little too ‘dead’ and food comes out quickly, so she associates the work environment with the food. So make it more of a toy party: try to do entire sessions with no food at all 🙂
When she plays tug with the other 2, I am sure it is active and noisy and a bit crazy 🙂 You can make the toy more active and I bet she tugs like crazy! Keep it separate from the food so that there are no questions from her about what is happening in each moment.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
YIKES! People were not paying attention. Or overworking their dogs. Or running them in the dark. It was insane! I paid for it but never used it because it was just madness!
Good morning!
>One NFC run done with empty hands (mostly). >
She seemed perfectly happy to work in the ring without the toy being visible. Yay!! And she looked super.
>Similar turf to the last one she did on turf, however the pile is MUCH shorter and even my “hand on the turf” test didn’t move and dogs don’t have nearly the issues here that I see at the other one. I didn’t feel like she was slipping >
It definitely seems like a better turf. She is still jumping more upwards with her rear than pushing off with her rear over the jumps, so she is not entirely comfy with the traction (and still processing all of the things in the environment plus mechanics). You might want to wrap her like a flyball dog to increase traction on turf! It is totally allowed in UKI of course and really helps. If I run on turf, I wrap the dogs otherwise they have to change their mechanics (or they slip & slide).
>but I do think she avoided that tunnel because it was just too similar of a scenario to when she wiped out trying to save it making the turn to get in.>
Yes, it is entirely possible that with all of the speed she had, she was being safe. Also, from her perspective visually, there was a person standing there and a person sitting there: that could have been enough of a visual distraction that she didn’t “see” the tunnel until it was too late. She doesn’t get a chance to see a lot of people on course in training but we can add some visual distractions at home to build the concept of ignoring them.
> I’m actually quite happy about that, that she showed a bit of self preservation! >
10000000% YES!!!! She didn’t smash herself, and she didn’t go visit the person (if that was part of the question). She was a good girl!!!
>With experience I think she’ll figure out how to sight up the tunnel entry and make the turn. I didn’t see any dogs have bad tunnel entries on this, so I think it was just her trying to avoid a crash like before and not trusting that she had traction to accomplish it.>
Yes – it was a super fast baby dog moment. You were spot on to help her out with less motion and breaking it down a bit. The rest looked great!
>She was able to do some tricks and cues and take cheese, but definitely quite fixated on the dogs running in between, so I’d say “engaged chill” was NOT happening.>
Being able to eat cheese is GREAT – both Border Collies and Whippets can refuse food when stimulated by motion so I am glad she was eating. You can also try higher value foods (rotisserie chicken in the big winner in my house haha) and see how it goes.
For the engaged chill: how does she do with it at home? That game needs to be pretty solid at home first before we can bring it to trials 🙂 And when it goes to trials, play it as far from the ring as possible – I think this particular trial location might not have a ton of room which is why the super high value food is helpful.
I also play the engaged chill game at home with videos of trials playing – this helps with the noise of stuff like a handler yelling TUNNEL TUNNEL TUNNEL and the tunnel noises, which is always hard for my dogs. Same with barking dogs, etc – video is very helpful for working the engaged chill game with trial sounds 🙂
>I don’t think she would stay engaged with a toy with the dogs running.>
It might happen, but also it might be exhausting so it is something to try when she doesn’t have to run. You can include a bit of tugging in between the food games and see how she feels about it.
>After her run, she played on the way to go get her leash and ignored all the people coming in to set bars, but as soon as the next dog started, I struggled to get her to stay engaged with the toy (she was leashed and outside the ring by that point). >
Usually by then the youngsters are mentally depleted so it is OK to take the toy out of the picture and switch to food. Eventually it will not be a problem to stay on the toy.
>(I feel strongly that if either of those things are true, then working through them in NFC runs is fine as long as the dog is safe enough to do so and I give plenty of leeway to NFC teams that use NFC runs to actively work on this, which is where we are I think.)>
Totally agree! And with NFC, it is good to tell the person after you to hold off for a moment. When debuting my young dogs in the eventual real runs, I also tell the person after me that it is a baby dog making a debut, just to be sure everyone has some space.
Looking at the 2nd video: She did really well here!
>I modified it to use a toy at the second station. Since I do UKI, no USDAA, and no ISC until she’s spayed (maybe none at all) I can come in the ring with the toy and have it taken with her leash, so I thought it would be important for her to get used to it being on the ground and available.>
Absolutely yes! She seemed to have no questions. You can also have a toy at the reward station and leave a toy with the leash (toys everywhere!) because the toy in UKI will sit on the ground with the leash in many cases.
>I also don’t want to be the person who complains about the leash/toy being placed too close to obstacles mid course just because the course happens to pass the out gate, so I’d like to be as clear as possible about when she’s allowed to go for it, and with past dogs I’ve used the jump into my arms trick to signal end of run and then send them to their leash/toy. >
Haha yes! I have seen people lose the dog to the leash in BIG runs (national finals!) so we want her to know the difference! And she seems to be really happy to jump in your arms.
And you can add in going to the toy with her to pick up and give to her, instead of sending her to it with a verbal – that is a likely scenario at a trial (plus it eliminates any baby dog victory laps with the toy at a trial :))
>I also need to practice getting the leash on and remembering to TIGHTEN THE MARTIGALE so it doesn’t come over her pointy little head as she tugs coming out of the ring, since this is right when the next dog is likely to start and I don’t want to suddenly realize I don’t have her on a leash! >
Will she shove her own head through the leash loop? That way you can have a hand on each side of it, she sticks her head in, then it is very easy to tighten as she is sliding her head into it.
>Thoughts on how to adjust this routine to keep her engaged, not focusing on the other dogs, and keep everyone safe of course?>
I think the next steps are all about adding more trial-like challenges to work through. Since she is primarily home schooled 🙂 You can get creative about adding noise (videos playing on your phone), other dogs barking (can Roots be in a crate nearby? ) and different/weird things to process: random different objects in the field near the start/finish, before she comes out – we don’t want her to run over to investigate things, new need her brain to process things while also doing her start line stuff.
Do you have access to group classes or other dogs to train with, or seminars? Those are the easiest ways to get more dog/people distractions. For example, one of my favorite things to show young dogs is the ring crew – people sitting in the ring, and a leash runner so darn close I can simply hand off my leash LOL! Or the leash runner picking up the leash/toy and moving with it (mind-blowing for many young dogs). And of course group classes of some sort will give her experience around other dogs too – even if you can only do an occasional drop in.
With my home schooled pups, I take them to seminars or classes that are a level or two below what I know they can do. Running long, hard sequence at home? I will put them in pre-novice/short simple sequences during their first class/seminar experiences because it is not about the sequences, it is all about the environment. And simple sequences give both human and canine more bandwidth to tackle the environmental distractions without worrying about any crazy hard handling or too much failure.
Great job here! Let me know what you think !
Tracy
