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Hello and welcome! She sounds like a really fun dog 🙂
>>This location has a much larger field and accommodates both a jumpers and standard course. Nellybelle is not able to focus well at the larger field.>>
Sounds like the larger field is a more challenging environment, internally and externally 🙂 We have lots of games to help her out!
> She also barks when i walk the course.>>
Can she be crated or stationed somewhere that she can relax? That will totally help both of you 🙂
>> Interestingly she is VERY focused during scent class.
That is cool to hear! Scent classes are structured differently, have a different level of arousal, and have very predictable reinforcement. I bet if we can work on the arousal level and predictability of reinforcement, then we can get the same (or better!) level of focus in agility that you do in scent class!!
Have fun!
TracyHello and welcome ! I am excited to see you here!
It sounds like she is doing really well already and we will build on that too 🙂
Have fun!
TracyHello and welcome, I am excited to see you here with your new baby!!! She sounds VERY FUN!!!!
>>but she really thinks decel is for suckers.>>
Well…. she isn’t wrong hahahaha but we will get her to turn by convincing her that it is all her idea to do it 🙂
>> She’s great when I’m up on the jump but turns and decel at a distance – yeah, nah.>>
That might be just an adolescent processing delay. When they are adolescents (til ages 3 or 4, approx) you will see there are delays in responding as the dogs process the cues, when there is a lot more ‘clutter’ than usual in the environment (internal and external, including arousal). We will definitely work on that!
>>I don’t want her rehearsing this as it also leads to bar knocking – she rarely knocks bars on the more controlled type courses. I want to try and work with her, not against her, to get a handle on her speed and my timing, plus convince her that turning is actually a thing.>>
I like your philosophy of working with here! The bar knocking is probably a combination of cue processing delays, mechanics, and lack of training in the high arousal that she is in at trials 🙂 We will work on ALL of that 🙂
Tracy
Hello and welcome!!! Thanks for the video; it is insightful. She definitely finds the trial environment VERY challenging. How does she do in her FEO runs (where you are running with a reinforcement, right?) We will definitely help answer her questions. She is not lacking in focus, she is struggling with what to do in a very challenging environment.
Tracy
Hello and welcome!
No worries about the smooth sequencing, that will come together 🙂 And I like your goal about being able to be hands-free in the ring – both in the flyball ring and in agility, especially at the end of the run. It is good to know that he can eat food in the agility ring (because I know he can’t always eat in flyball!) And on our agenda for ALL the dogs here is teaching what I call ‘engaged chill’ where they just chill out without us holding them or having to entertain them or tugging 🙂Tracy
Hello and welcome back! And I am very excited to watch Muso get into the ring!!
>. We are having trouble steering as ‘going fast’ is a top priority for her; I know some of it is my timing,
Going fast is great! Yes, we will look at timing, but also her processing will be delayed at this early stage (high latency in different environments). No problem – I prefer a young dog to be fast fast fast and we fine tune the turns as she gets onto the harder courses. Dogs like Muso can win by wide margins without looking like they are turning tight 🙂
>>and we are also going to need A LOT of distance and independent skills. I am looking forward to getting eyes on my training again. Her teeter is about halfway done and we have started mat training for her contacts. She weaves SO WELL and we are working weird angles, layering, and distractions for proofing; she loves it, and I couldn’t be more thrilled!>>
Yes, all of those independent skills are the wave of the future in agility! I am glad she is doing so well! It is exciting to see everything come together!
Tracy
Happy to be back!
Hi! Welcome!
A new knee – that is going to be AWESOME!!!!!!! And we can tweak everything here to be done with somewhat limited mobility. It is great timing to start this with him now.
Have fun!
TracyHello and welcome! He is the perfect age for this!
And you can totally tweak the sequences to fit your space – be creative! We do want about 20-25 feet between obstacles but otherwise, anything else is good!Have fun!
TracyHello and welcome!!
>> As Sprite decided agility was fun and exciting she also lost the ability to pay attention and line up on the start line.
Arousal + adolescence = all sorts of exciting behaviors LOL!
>> I’m trying to avoid stress and conflict at the start line.
YAY!!! We want teamwork, no conflict.
>>But, previously I was using food as a transport and to help her sit. Once the food was gone she had no idea what to do.>>
Yep, that is precisely correct. The internal state is different, and the external state (no more food) was different. So she indeed does not know what to do.
>>I’m working on more acclimation in high arousing environments, but we really cannot trial until this piece improves. The few trials I’ve done she was very distracted and took forever to sit with me recueing and/or putting frontal pressure on her. It is taking forever! I’ve taken her off the line and just tugged to the other side if she just couldn’t sit. Once she starts running she’s doing well making baby dog mistakes. But, I really don’t want conflict on the start line and it’s a slippery slope.>>
I agree that you don’t want to ask for a sit in a trial environment until there are more tools in the toolbox, particularly in the arousal regulation area and in state dependent memory. You can still do stuff without a sit stay (NFC stuff) and then bring the stay back. We will plan for all of it!
>>Currently in class I’m doing a ready to work protocol in front of the jump.
What are you doing, specifically? This will help us plan.
>> but the more times she runs the longer it takes to line up and sit. We definitely need more surfing the YD curve and arousal dial games.>>
Yes, the arousal is constantly shifting, and also the toolbox might need to change. I don’t call it a protocol or a routine or a ritual because there are waaaaaaaay too many variables to limit ourselves like that 🙂
I am excited to start!!
Tracy
Hi!
>>think it’s just a mental thing for me that for whatever reason I think that being close to the jump will mean too much pressure and he won’t come in. But the other cues should override that.>>
Yes, there is pressure when you stay closer, but that is the joy of serpentines LOL! And doing it with you walking at first, and with the jump angled as needed, will help him drive in. You can put a line on the ground to keep you nice and close to the bar – the ideal position is about an arm’s length away.
It was fun to see him blasting through the wings on the zig zags! This game will help the serps too, because he is practicing moving to the right AND to the left (and both look really good!). The right side lead changes look smoother than the ones to the left (notice how he does a little hop up to the left sometimes LOL!!) He only had one question, at 1:37 – that was to his left, and the cue was a little late and maybe not dramatic enough, so he didn’t quite go to the wing. No worries! The other cues were earlier and clearer, so he got those left side lead changes nicely.
You can revisit this in the next day or two, trying to give the cues faster and adding the rest of the wings 🙂 We add to this game on Wednesday by adding bars to it 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi!
I am sorry to hear you’ve been sick – hope you are feeling much better!!! I bet a staycation will be NICE!The find the jump game is going well! You can spread the distances out more so he can run run run – I agree that he liked it so we might as well let him rip!
What a good boy – look how he went and found the jump, as soon as you said jump on the first rep. Yay! I think it was clearer for him when you added more and more motion on each rep. He was able to stop looking at you and really lock onto the jump. If you stood still too long at the start wing, he was confused but as long as you moved, he as perfect.
At the end of the session, you started added more lateral distance and he did well. When you add more lateral distance, you can keep moving because that will support the line too. And it looks like he is definitely ready for more distance and motion! And remember to add in running hard to get way ahead, to see if he will still find the jump 🙂
On the send’n’serp videos – the left turns are not his thing yet 🙂 The right turns in the first session? Yes, no problem. The left turn? Nope LOL!! His brain just wasn’t processing that he had to lead change to his left until after he was past the jump (you can see him start to do it as he was passing the jump). On the last rep, he was able to find the bar but note how he had to slow himself down and add all sorts of little steps LOL!
So, let’s chalk it up to him being a righty 🙂 When you re-visit the left turns, I am sure his latent learning will have kicked in to an extent, but definitely help him out by angling the jump towards him a LOT more to make the bar is very visible and the shift to his left is much easier. When he can consistently do that for a session or two, you will be able to then start angling the jump back to the original position.
On both sides – your line of motion was pulling away from the jump, and ideally you would remain pretty close to the jump (close enough to touch the wing) and move parallel to the jump bar without moving away from it. Ideally, you would send around the wing and move directly to the reward, keeping you nice and close to the bar.
When he is turning to his right, you can start with this staying-close and see how he does. If he is fine, you can add more motion! When he is turning to his left, stay close to the bar but don’t add more motion yet 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
I like visuals with rear crosses because the line is subtle for us, but HUGELY important for the dogs! I am glad you are finding the visuals helpful 🙂T
Good morning!
>> When I normally train, the temperature is higher, but the sun on us really makes a difference.
The sun does seem to make a difference with my dogs too – heats them up faster than ambient air temperatures do.
>>In total, I only had her outside about 15 min, including a dip in the pool before we started and in between taping. I could tell as our 3 sessions went on she was less willing to bring the toy back and go again.>>
One thing to keep in mind is how “expensive” the behavior is, and keep that in mind when deciding length of session and number of sessions. By “expensive”, I mean the physical and mental output required to execute it. And an “expensive” behavior will tire the pup out a lot faster than we might expect.
Two things that make the behavior more “expensive”:
– is it new and does it require more focus and mental processing to sort it out?
– do it involve a lot of physical output, like running,chasing/retrieving, especially in the heat?This is a new game with running, so the answer to both questions is a resounding YES, it is expensive. More expensive for the pup than for us humans because we are not running or thinking nearly as much 🙂 So plan for just one introductory session of about 2 minutes then either end the training for the day or do something that is less behaviorally “expensive”.
>>Although, after this I brought all the girls out and played fetch. M had no problem going straight into that. But fetching doesn’t take many brain cells.
Correct, this is not an expensive behavior at all 🙂
First video – she is finding the jump really well! Be sure that you are moving the whole time, rather than sending. You started adding more motion at about 1:30 and the more you moved, the more she found the line and the less she looked at you. Perfect! And remember to connect to her eyes on the intial send to the start wing: when you connected to her eyes, she went to the wing every time. If you disconnected and looked forward, she did not go to the wing (looking forward changes the line of your shoulders which changes the info she sees)
2nd video went well too – you were moving the whole time and she did really well ignoring the tunnel. She did tell you at the end that she needed a break (and a little at the start of the 3rd video). So even with the skill you are teaching her going really well and a high rate of reinforcemnet, the behavior being “expensive” caused her to check out a bit. That is great info for the next sessions:
Familiar behavior? Easy behavior? You can do a bit more.
New behavior? Harder behavior? Do a short blast of training and then let latent learning do the rest 🙂>>Perhaps we’ll try Advanced after the sun goes down.
Give it a day or two for the latent learning to kick in, then try it. I am sure it will go really well!
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>> I’m a bit of a dog geek and always find it fascinating to see how each puppy learns ever so slightly different than others.>>
Yes, me too, I love that! Breed differences, individual differences, similarities… SO COOL! I am a full-on nerd LOL!! And that includes the side preference thing – if we build things up carefully, then we will never see a side preference. If we skips steps or add pressure, then a side preference issue can become frustrating for the pup (and the human :))
She is doing well on the zig zags – she seemed to have gotten the framework so now you can add to it and emphasize the lead changes more:
For the cookie toss starts, toss the treat further away from the start wing so she turns around to head back to your further from wing 1 – which will get her lined up facing you before she passes wing 1. If the cookie is too close to wing 1, she is approaching you sideways so while she is turning, she is not really doing the back-and-forth lead change.
And, if she is facing the correct direction before passing wing 1, then you can start to do the lead change cues sooner 🙂 She is ready for that!
Then as she arrives at the wing you are next to, you can reward her for being parallel to the wing (the exit of the lead change) rather than turn her to wrap the wing before rewarding.
You can add in the 3rd wing too now – that adds in even more lead change action (but requires better long distance cookie tossing to line her up for wing 1 :))
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>Rears are hard.
TRUTH!! Rears need to be trained and handled – same as threadles! Both are hard, neither are natural to the dogs.
>>Maybe we need more basic Lft Rt practice on the Mini Pini. Trying not to bring up my arms to turn her.>>
Things that went really well on this video:
– connection was great!
– your arms were great, nice and low!
– adjustments in the moment to try to help her out
– lots of reinforcement even when things were not perfect
– she is very motivated and fast and also gives you some BIG OPINIONS haha
– her commitment to the jump is really strong and also her ability to follow your physical cues is excellent (which is the good news, and also the bad news haha!)I don’t think you need to go back to do more left practice on the minny pinny – it won’t hurt to do it and it will help solidify the verbals, but it is the physical cues we can adjust here to smooth out the rear crosses.
The main thing I see is that on the rear crosses, you are running L-shaped lines. What I mean by that is as she is exiting the tunnel, you are going straight until she passes you and then you are moving into the RC pressure line.
That means that she is not seeing the RC info until the last minute. When she is turning to her right, she is able to make the adjustment in the air or just before takeoff. For example, on the first video:
1:21 – you were going straight
1:22 – she is passing you, looking to her left, based on your straight line.
Then as she takes off, she sees the RC info starting and turns to her right over the barOn the 2nd video, you were taking fewer steps straight before getting onto the RC line so she was able to make the turn before takeoff at :48.
Looking at the left turns – the same thing was happening with the L-shaped running lines. For example on the 3rd video: she exits the tunnel at 1:11, you are running straight
she passes you so you start the RC pressure line at 1:12
but too late – she takes off turning to her right.So why is she able to adjust on the right turns, but not on the left turns? The right turn cues were a tiny bit sooner but also, she is a righty 🙂 so the left turn coordination will be slightly delayed at this point.
Toward the end of the session, you were sensing that the info was late and starting to put pressure on the RC line sooner. PERFECT and exactly right! So why did she end up not taking the jump? You were cutting across her path too soon.
I know, it is a total Goldilocks thing: Too little, too much, just right LOL!!!
So what to do instead? As she is exiting the tunnel, be running directly towards the center of the bar until she is very close to takeoff – then cut in behind her (she was still several strides from takeoff when you were too early). You might have to tuck in closer to the tunnel after sending her to it, so you can run forward to the center of the bar without getting too far ahead and having to slam on the brakes.
Here are some visuals on what I mean by the L-shaped lines and also being too soon to cut through her line, along with a drawing at the bottom of what the RC line would be:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17wLrVAa4LEjKa85zdTBdBB1twktnqjIjwJ2D8if3i6s/edit?usp=sharing
For now, no need for the left/right verbals as you smooth out the physical cues. If the physical cues are different than the verbals, she will go with the physical cues (which might dilute the verbals). So when you are consistently getting the turns want, you can add back the verbals and it will all come together.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
