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Hi!
>Yes, I get the same behaviors at home as in a trial. So I can’t just blame the trial environment, >
That is great! Makes it easier to train!
> I actually think that might be a good thing because it’s so hard to work on a problem that only shows up in a trial!>
Exactly!
<<Something to try is to dismount, step to the side a little and pause, allowing her to settle into her position. Then remind her to stay and move to your lead out position.>>
This was my strategy for a little while, but it didn’t seem to help. She seemed confused and would think I wanted her to follow me when I started moving again. >Maybe use the line up to get her where you want her relative to the jump… but cue the position to stay in after the dismount. That way the lineup is more to get the exact spot and not the start of the stay.
>I got a suggestion to use a PVC “box” that is just 3 small pieces of pipe with elbow connectors so it forms 3 sides of a rectangle and to have her sit in it at the startline. The idea is that it’s a visual with clear boundries for her,>
From the human perspective, sure, clear boundaries! From the dog perspective? Not so clear and she has spent a LOT of time in her short life stepping over or moving through PVC. So you are going to have to teach her that *this* specific PVC thing means don’t move, when all other PVC things have involved movement.
> and it’s easy to fade because you take off the side pieces and just have the front piece in front of her. I suspect you could even graduate to something completely flat like a thin leash and eventually a string if you couldn’t fade it easily. Do you have any thoughts on this strategy?>
I have thoughts LOL!! It can be done, and it is not as easy to fade as people think because it becomes a context cue pretty quickly.
So you will have to spend a big chunk of timing training it (there is nothing intuitive about it and she might think it is weird) so she understands it and get it happening in front of a jump, at trials, etc… then have to fade it. It is a significant time investment in a training aid that may or may not work 🙂 And training aids for visual cues need to be faded ASAP or they become the cues of the behavior… and without them? We don’t have the behavior.
And in an environment with sooooo much visual stimulation and she will be watching you lead out… I don’t think adding another visual thing will help (depletes too much bandwidth) and could potentially add stress or pressure to the start area.
So if you want an aid, choose something that doesn’t need to be faded – like her leash. Have her sit on her leash for now, as an anchor point. Not visual so it doesn’t split that bandwidth. She can feel it, and you don’t need to fade it (you can make it less obvious of course but the leash can always be there).
I prefer NOT to add aids that need to be trained a lot then faded, and run the risk of being context cues. So I think it is better to work on what will work for both of you in terms of staying in position, and clarity of release, and try not to add aids.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! I think it went really well – it is a big course for a young dog and she showed lots of great skills and speed here!
Looking at the opening where you sent her to 1 –
On the first rep: She found the first jump really well and didn’t move on the stay! Before the release, try to be stationary in position, praise, and see if she will look at the jump. She might have moved just before you released her – she definitely knew where the jump was and might have been anticipating the release.On the 2nd rep, she turned to face you and was not facing the jump LOL She still got it, but you can work the skill more gradually (adding distance more slowly) so that she doesn’t move her feets AND so she looks at the jump. I know, we want it ALL! LOL!
>I had to push on her line out of the tunnel and Indy let me know it by yelling at me.>
She did get BIG MAD (bark) at :16 and a small mad (grunt) at :39 on the way to the 6 backside. There are a couple of reasons why she gave you ‘feedback’ there 🤣😂
– you said ‘tunnel’ but didn’t give her a cue to stay in extension on the exit, so she was coming in towards you. A “GO” before she enters the tunnel will get her running straight on the exit
– your arm was up high and blocking connection at :16 so the cue looked like the front side of the jump for a moment. The arm was not quite as high at :40 but still not enough connection. So be sure you are looking directly at her (which points your shoulders to the backside) with your dogs-ide arm out of the way.– to get you further ahead to make that connection and because she read the 2-3-4-5 line so well: you can lead out less and layer your blue tunnel by sending her to 3-4-5 to be ahead and closer to 6 when she exits the 5 tunnel. The opening is perfect for a big layer!
She had one question about 9, when she went past it at :44. It was because you accelerated straight to get past the tunnel, which set the line past 9. She reads everything!
You can either send over 8 to 9 and layer the yellow tunnel, or you can use brakes arms there as you override your motion. You did a small brake arm at :49 – you can do it bigger and sooner, so you can accelerate more up the line.
>d she did a super nice weave entry, nice to see since she has been struggling with speed and she nailed them.>
Yes! SUPER nice weave entry! And that is a hard entry – she was great!
>I tried a wrap,,, but I lost her to the tunnel. I did my verbal, decel, brake,,, maybe I did it too late or the tunnel was just too inviting.>
The timing of starting the cues was good and she did collect, so I don’t think it was because you were late! I think she didn’t quite see the rotation fully and might have been thinking it was a spin to cue the line to the tunnel. That’s valid, because it is something she has probably seen before and you were far enough behind that I don’t think she could see it was a FC. So it is probably a lack of experience thing and you can show it to her by getting closer to the wrap wing at first. That way your rotation and connection is VERY visible, so it is easier to do the FC. Then you can show her what the cues to the tunnel would look like, and see if she can read the difference when you alternate them. Then we start to have you do it further and further away.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>I am not the best with filming or editing so I started small.>
The video looks great!! And she did really well with this game – she is super fun 🙂
She has lovely commitment to the jumps here! You can use your arm to send her to that middle jump, then you don’t need to point your arm at the line much at all – you can just look at her and run 🙂
Pointing too much can slow you down (and she is already fast, so we don’t want to slow you down) and pointing forward can also block connection, She had 2 questions about that here:
You can see one question at :49 when you were cueing the tunnel but your arm was pointing forward and she could not see your eyes – she zigged in towards you (almost locking on to the wrong end of the tunnel) then zagged back out the side of the tunnel you wanted. Pointing ahead there actually turned your shoulders to the other end of the tunnel, which is why she considered it.
The other question was more subtle: at 1:11 you were looking ahead and pointing ahead, which turned your shoulders slightly away from the line to the middle jump. You can see her look at you there over the bar (and tick the bar) as she seeks more info. So pointing your hand to her nose and being connected more will smooth that out.
You can play with this again if you like, adding more distance between the jumps – that challenges her to commit even further away! Because you are adding distance, you can throw her frisbee reward out on the line to keep the value high for committing miles away.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>Yeah, this game is not really his jam. I went out early this morning – he does not like heat, despite being from a hot climate. I moved the jumps apart and he was sniffing the ground and looking for wildlife, then he’d humor me and go do a jump. He does not struggle going out to the second jump. The food is not that rewarding for him >
It is probably not the work, it is probably the reinforcement is not very motivating.
>and he’s on a very limited diet right now (we’re finally on a diet that has eliminated the chronic GI problems he was having).>
I am glad he is doing better! The GI issues will also reduce his motivation for work, especially when food is involved and if the food is part of a limited diet, poor guy! So….
>I’d like to try again with a toy – that might go better. Or I might switch to the second game with the tunnel.>
Yes, and also yes. Bring a frizz or a fun toy or a ball, and move into the games with the tunnel too! No need to do 1000 reps of the lazy game 🙂
>The week after you were here, I had a chance to take him to a seminar and he really wowed me with what he was able to do. I had never really done any sequencing and he was taking jumps like a pro.>
Yay! That is exciting!
>So I know he can do this lazy game, but I need to find something to motivate him more.>
The main lazy game goal is to make sure that the dogs will drive around jumps without needing us to run like crazy people to each jump – so having a more motivating reward will make a huge difference.
>On the DW, he’s till trying to figure everything out. The mat is half on the plank and half on the ground right now. It took a lot for work to get him to break out of trotting, so we’re kind of more focused on keeping that enthusiasm up and having him run. I do really short sessions – like 4 reps. He has a lot of value for his mat, so he rarely misses it, but as you saw, the way he hits it is not yet consistent. I believe he will ultimately hit with rear feet, but we aren’t picking on that part yet.>
He is definitely figuring it out. It is possible that he will be a front foot hit dog, or a rear foot hit dog – if you can get ahead and watch the contact zone, you will be able to see his preference as the DW gets taller (keeping it low for too long is not good for striding, so raise it as quickly as you can!)
>He has learned how to jump on and off the plank at various heights (with the plank on a table, spanning 2 tables, and then the low DW). We’ve also worked various approaches to the board – both on the flat and with the board, starting with proper to help him line up to load.>
Perfect! Keep revisiting it to keep the foundation strong!
>Stopping him and doing just the down plank wasn’t working for him because I’d lose all my speed, so he was allowed to do the whole low DW, which is helping him. As you know, it’s quite a journey…>
I totally know! And I bet just doing the down ramp was getting walking or trotting. Running the whole thing is much better for him, he seems to be really doing great!
Tracy
Hi!
>I found when I threw a treat for each jump in the early sessions she tended to stop and wait till I threw the treat.>
Ha! She is very smart 🙂 And her feedback is noted: we need to be more variable with the rewards so she doesn’t stop and wait because the rewards have been too predictable 🤣
She did great here though, finding the jump with you being nice and lazy about moving 🙂 Perfect! Keep spreading the jumps apart so she works bigger and bigger distances – you got even more speed when you added distance. And you can add the tunnel too, building up to the 2nd and 3rd parts of the game (and into the sequences that are coming next!)
Great job!
TracyHi!
All of the games are going really well!
Mountain Climbers are looking really good! He seemed perfectly happy to run up the plank with it moving a bit, even with the different angles of entry from the wing and more speed. Yay! It looks like he was wanting to jump off the teeter as soon as he got his treat. You can use a little dab of cream cheese for him to lick instead of a treat – that way it doesn’t fall off and you have time to go help him turn around and come back down 🙂 Then you can reward again for staying at the top of the board when you arrive. When he is happy with that, you can add in walking past the teeter a bit or moving away laterally, so he sees some handling independence.
Wingin’ It: The one step sends looked great! You were perfect about sticking close to the tunnel and sending. And the FC after the middle wing also looked great.
The only thing I would recommend ramping up is the exit line connection. You were making connection by looking back and using your dog-side arm – but that closes your shoulders and blocks connection a bit, so he was going a little wide until he could see the next line. If you use exit line connection more (dog-side arm is way back, pointing back to his nose, opposite arm across your body) then you will see how much tighter he turns 🙂
He did really well with the lazy game too! I think your commitment can be clearer back to him: as he is approaching the jump after the tunnel, look at him and step to the takeoff spot of the middle jump. You did this best at :49 and 1:12, but you can make an even bigger connection (and keep your hand more pointed to his nose :))
On the sends, you were turning forward and pointing at the jump ahead, which will break connection a bit. It did not matter to him one bit here, because he totally understood the assignment 🙂 But the connected sends will make things easier as we add more complicated sequences.Yo can add even more distance if you like! And if you think you will be doing AKC with him, bring the distances in closer to he learns to manage those smaller spaces as well.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi! Great to see you and Arrow! I know life interrupted but he is doing really well! I remember that he as a rockstar in MaxPup 1, and now he is at a perfect age to start adding these skills.
The lazy game looked really good – he was very very happy to take jumps and eat treats 🙂 And he found several in a row, no problem at all. He is looking at you a little, but that is mainly because there is nothing else to look at (the game is easy for him). Since he was vey successful and found that center jump even when you moved it further away, you can add 2 things:
– less motion from you here, to see if he can still find all the jumps very independently
– add parts 2 and 3, he is ready for them 🙂Plank confidence is also looking really good – he is definitely confident! No problem turning around on the plank. Approaching the plank from different angles was no problem – he was able to get on a balance. You can add even crazier angles at this stage: think of the ugliest angle you would never want to see… and let’s show it to him at this stage with the board on the ground.
You can raise the plank a bit if you have really stable things (less than a foot tall) to put under each end and the center. That will challenge his balance! And when the plank is elevated a bit, you can also challenge his balance by having him slowly change positions from a stand to a down to a sit to a down to a stand, and so on. That might be hard!
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
The lazy game is looking good here! He was happy to find to find the jump, eat the treat, find the next jump. Easy peasy (but probably not all that exciting haha) I think he only missed one jump out of all the reps?Since it went so well, onwards to parts 2 and 3! And you can also add challenge to the baby level by spreading it all out – try it at 20 feet between the jumps, or more! He is a big dude and will need some space 🙂
His RDW is going really well! I bet he likes the full DW more than just the plank – he really gets to run! Is he a front foot hit criteria or rear foot? He hit the mat on the first 3 reps but the hit was a little different. And on the last rep he didn’t really hit it (left rear toenail LOL!). You might be getting enough speed now that you will want to be ahead to see exactly what he is doing. I try to just stare at the mat from wherever I am – but it is hard to see sometimes!! He is on the right track here for sure.
Have you taught him how to jump off the dog walk, from the up ramp or middle plank, while it is still low? I walk the dog up, then ask them to hop off. Then let him add more speed – the goal is that they know how to safely dismount.
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
>Never even thought of that possibility! That would be really fun to try! May have to reset this sometime just to try it 🙂 This was a really good series of exercises for us…..:) Lots of good learning for both us us >
I am glad you liked them! I had fun filming them 🙂 And handling that 7 jump from the takeoff side is getting to be a common thing, and it helps us stay further ahead too!
Have fun!
Tracy
Yes, those are the concepts. You can also make the wrap jump into just a wing! That saves space and gets the same challenge going.
T
Hi!
>REALLY appreciate your feedback on these courses. Thank you for taking the time to analyze them and give me the overview.
>Thanks for your thoughts. She’s such a good girl.
>I agree, she is really fantastic. It is fun to watch the trial videos! The future is very exciting!
>She wrapped the jump after the A-frame correctly, then I stepped in to push her to the jump so I could take off up the line to get the backside after the broad jump. She took the step in and literally ran with it to the far tunnel. I was worried that if I let her wrap the far wing after the frame, she wouldn’t turn tightly enough and I’d have to hang back to correct and be late for the backside after the broad. >
That falls into the category of ‘always choose the fastest line’ and then plan the handling – the judge sets it so it is intuitive to the dog and not that hard to get if you take the line that appears riskier. By choosing the safer/slower line, it required you to have to step back in to show the next line. Even if she had not had that question, the step back to the next jump would have made it hard to get up the next line.
>she usually curls towards me out of tunnels, so I didn’t give a turn cue at all and she just went! On a later course, when I thought I’d supported a line out of the tunnel, she did curl in and missed the jump (didn’t get a video of Snooker), and when I supported the same exact line again on Senior Speedstakes (with even more enthusiasm), she missed it again. I am having a hard time knowing when she will curl in and when she will stay out on the line. >
Because she is so fast and still pretty inexperienced, be super consistent and always give the turn or line info that fits the moment, whether you think she needs it or not. You being more consistent will help her be more consistent with the tunnel exits which will make it easier for you both.
>We seem to have a handle on AAC, but UKI is kicking our butts. I’m not used to these big lines and I am really struggling to know when to cue a turn, just use her name, or show her big line support and trust that she will read it. >
UKI is an entirely different game in many ways! To master UKI, at some point you will likely want to limit your trials to only UKI courses for a while (6 months or so, depending on how many trials you do). Maybe after AAC Nationals?
And also cut yourself some slack, it takes a bit of time to sort out the handling needs of these youngsters. The fast, brilliant dogs take a full season or so of trialing on these courses before we can get consistent with handling. You are doing great! Think of each run as data-gathering, to support long term goals. It is fine for UKI to kick your butt for now, because you will lock things in and then be able to nail these courses.
>For the gamble, I slowed the video down to see what happened, and she skipped the whole down-ramp and only hit the contact, so I think that she couldn’t have turned if she wanted to. The Frame and Teeter are both problems when they are in the first run, as she is usually high and doesn’t break enough and goes flying.>
MUSO MARIE DO NOT DO THAT! Eek! 2 ideas for you:
Since Gamblers is often first, save a contact for the end of the run after she has had 15 seconds or so of getting her wilds out on jumps & tunnels, then cue a contact. If she hits criteria, exit for a reward. If not – repeat that line!You can also do this NFC in any class that is first of the day, with a hidden toy to reward right there (or have a helper hold the toy in the ring for you in UKI).
Have you ever done the 10 tunnel game at home to get more arousal and simulate trial conditions when working contacts? I have found that to be effective 🙂
>I hadn’t considered that tunnel an off course at all, so I just trusted that she would curl towards me, as usual, and off we go.>
It is possible that she doesn’t naturally curl in – but rather, does whatever the last thing she saw/heard before the tunnel. That might be why it is hard to predict what she will do sometimes. We should track that to confirm or deny this theory!
>So now my big question is: how do I get even more independence on weaves (and the teeter) without adding pressure to these obstacles. >
For the teeter – is it about maintaining position at the end and not self-releasing? You can do lots of quick bang game or elevator game reps in high arousal, with you doing CRAZY things like running away, dragging/waving toys, etc.
I also do this to start getting independence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2SrQXgta4Y
Then add in more craziness to this too.
>She tends to bail on the last 2-4 poles if I’m moving laterally, but sometimes she doesn’t. I have a hang-up about making her weave 12 poles over and over just to reward the exit, but I don’t know if 6 poles gives her enough time to think about bailing.>
If she was trained on 2x2s or channels, you can do more reps by opening up the weaves – it is easier on her body but the concept is the same (and the reward placement is the same, thrown to the exit of the poles).
>I did a seminar with Alen Marekovich and he warned not to add weave guides or pre-position the toy because then it only LOOKS like they have the skill, but then don’t have it if the support isn’t there. >
He is 100% correct – the wires and placed toy both become context cues very quickly! I personally don’t use wires and only use a placed reward at the very beginning – I close the weaves very slowly while teaching the independence at each step, and throw the reward a lot.
Also, Alen is my Voodoo’s grandpa 🙂
>So now I’m feeling very conflicted about how to fix these training holes.>
Fix them with concepts (like opening up the poles) rather than high reps, and also make sure you are working in very high arousal as that solidifies the learning better.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
This is really hard for sure! And it takes multiple sessions (and sleep for latent learning) until it begins to lock in for dogs that are more motion-oriented.
She is off to a good start and is very motivated to keep trying and figure out this puzzle.
“I felt really bad that there were errors.”
Don’t feel bad! Errors are a useful part of learning, and you didn’t get mad at her or anything. Sure, there were a few more errors than we would have liked but games like this do end up with more errors in the beginning stages.
To help offset that, you can use reset cookies after an error – that keeps the dogs motivated but we can really make a difference when we reward the correct obstacle (toy throw and big praise, like you did here)
(You said something about not saying the over cue twice… You can say over twice or more – the more you say it, the more likely she will process it 🙂 )
One thing that helps with the youngsters (you can see me doing it with Ramen the whippet at the beginning of the demo) is to hold the dog’s collar, say the verbal several times then release the dog. That helps them process it without moving – easier for their young brains!
You did get low with her and held her, but released and said the word at the same time… try holding her til she hears the word 5 or 6 times, then let go. That is what you did on the first rep where you held her and she got it right, after thinking about it for a moment.
You can bring a chair out too, easier on your back and knees to just sit! And a frosty beverage too, if it is hot out 🤣😂
>Our current distraction is new puppy popcorn aka Aqueus Excited Maize. I thought you would w joy my fav snack name!>
OMG POPCORN IS THE CUTEST DOG IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!! Sooooooooooo cute!! A perfect distraction 🙂 We get to raise puppies together again – I am getting a puppy who arrives next week – 3/4 Whippet, 1/4 BC – from 2 of my favorite dogs on the planet. Not as cute as Popcorn, but I am not sure there are any dogs as cute as Popcorn! My previous puppy is from my 2 other favorite dogs on the planet. And now, no more puppies for a few years LOL!!!
Keep me posted on baby Popcorn!!!
Tracy
Hi!
This was a super informative run!! She is doing so well!!>Really proud of the tunnel-white wingless jump (they like to use those hard to see jumps) to the AF line that Indy took.>
That line was great! And your blind cross timing and her criteria maintenance on the a-frame exit – that was IMPRESSIVE!!!!!
>After that, the lines got tight and I think I crowded her a bit but we kept going.>
It was good to keep going!
I think there were 2 separate things happening here:
At :22, the line even with a brake arm was still directly to the yellow jump or to the backside of the double jump. She did turn, but this is one of the very rare spots where you can use a spin! Those 2 jumps are sooooo close together that a fast dog like Indy needs a more significant turn cue on such a tight discrimination.
She also has an understanding on staying on the parallel path to the backside of a jump – that might have played a small role at :22 but I think it played a significant role at :31 and :44
At :31, as she was landing, you were facing and moving along the line that would indicate the backside… so that is where she was heading. If you watch her head at :32, she actually looks at the backside bar as if she was going to jump it, then sees your motion to the weaves and changes her line to the weaves.
A similar thing happened at :44 where you accelerated on a parallel line so she didn’t take the last jump (might have also been heading for her leash or something there?)
So to get the front side of the jump, turn more 🙂 For dogs that know about backsides, those AKC lines require some exaggeration on the turn. And, call her name emphatically (or use a front side of jump cue if you have one – mine is jump :)) I think you were pretty quiet there, so more verbals can help too!
Nice work!
Tracy
Hi!
>It’s a “come to me and stay with me until cued otherwise” cue, I use it for discriminations by giving it then immediately cuing the closer obstacle >
In the context where he had the question, it might be useful to deliver 2 cues simultaneously when you cue the next obstacle if there is a significant turn: the slap is followed by the obstacle cued with a physical turn cue at the same time (brake arm or spin for example). It is possible that it was slap then obstacle then turn cue here, and there just was not enough time in a tight sequence for him to process the turn cue. Thoughts?
Fingers crossed for good ISC courses too!
Tracy
