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>>This was ENTIRELY too much for my immature baby.
Yes, 4 days is a LOT even for adult dogs (and adult humans LOL!!) If you are at a 4 day trial, you can run day 1 and day 3, or day 2 and 4 – no need to run every day. Rest is helpful!
>>Yes, she’s 23 months old, but she’s a very young-in-the-head 23 month old.
23 months old is still fully adolescent, so she is pretty normal. The scientists tell us that adolescence doesn’t end in dogs til closer to 3 or maybe 4 years old. Eek!
>>She has the skills but as you can see as the days wore on she became more and more frazzled until I FINALLY got the message on the 4th day and took her over just one jump so she could experience some fun in the ring. I post these videos so others may benefit from what an overwhelmed young dog looks like when over aroused and not able to cope.>>
She does have the obstacle skills but not in the trial environment, not quite yet. And the coping skills are what she needs for sure! So for now, the only thing I would suggest you do in a trial is just play tug with the toy she liked in run 1 – no obstacles, no handling. You don’t even have to take the leash off! AKC is an expensive venue to do this in, so finding UKI or ASCA or CPE will give you more runs to do this for less money 🙂 UKI also has ways to use food in NFC and I bet she would like that!
One thing to keep in mind is when she is running off in the ring at a trial, she is looking to get out of the ring. I dno’t think even one jump in run 4 was fun, because she didn’t really get to play. So for now, put the emphasis on training in different places and working the pattern games and volume dial and remote reinforcement. Then, when she can run training sequences in new places with engagement, you can bring it back to trials for NFC. She will tell you what she is ready for 🙂
Were you able to work any of the pattern games outside the ring? If so, how did she do?
Tracy
Hello and welcome!!
>.The last trial, we just entered 3 runs FEO. It was a masters-only trial so we couldn’t run for real anyway – haha. But there were two gamblers runs so I was free to work on whatever for 40 seconds.>>
How did it go? Did he have any struggles?
>>He’s at that adolescent boy-dog stage, so working on dialling down his excitement a tad.>>
I love those adolescent boy dogs LOL!!! He did really well here. Definitely add in the pattern games and the volume dial game, because that will help teach him the arousal regulation he needs.
The sequences look great here!
First video – very nice run!! Yes, line him up on a slice but you already caught that 🙂
He had a good turn on 3, nice job cuing it! He slowed down a bit 3-4 because you had to finish the rotation – a blind cross there might be more effective because it is easier to finish the rotation and move up the next line sooner, making for an even better turn on 3, 4, 5 (those were a little late because you got behind on the FC). Blinds can produce surprisingly lovely turns!!And excellent job with your connection throughout 🙂
2nd run – he has a great stay! I liked your position on the line between 2 and 3 at :28 but you can rotate your feet to 3 (rather than facing the tunnel) Facing the tunnel caused him to jump straight in extension over 2 and turn after landing
Note the difference in your position at 1:26 – still in basically the same spot, but feet facing 3 and upper body facing 2 – NICE TURN! You can start to move sooner, trust him to stay on his line as long as you stay connected like you did (your connection is lovely!)
You can add a little deceleration and a wrap verbal on 3 to tighten up that turn a little. But overall it was lovely!
3rd video: Nice line up position! He read the opening perfectly.
With big stride, you can start the decel for the send to 3 while he is over 2, so when he lands from 2, you can send and leave for the BC. You started the decel into the send when he landed so the send happened as he was approaching takeoff of 3, so he was wide on 3. It was one stride too late for such a big striding dude 🙂 So starting the decel into it as he is over 2 will get it on time.
That will get you up the line sooner so as soon as you see his feet lift off for 3, you can disconnect and start the blind (as you run up the line as fast as you can 🙂 )
For the RC, try not to pull to your right then move into it – you will get a sweeter line and stay further ahead if you drive directly to the center of the bar on jump 5 – he will pass you and do the rear smoothly.
The only spot on any of these runs so far where you needed more connection was at :21 here – your arm starting coming up and forward and you were looking a little ahead, which turned you away from the jump and he looked at you, questioning the line. On the last rep, you made an excellent adjustment – kept the big connection and arms stayed low, so he had no questions and found his line. SUPER!! So definitely keep the low arms and big connections, he does brilliantly with that.
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I totally replied to this yesterday but clearly I never hit “submit”. SORRY!!!<> Frantic is an excellent, accurate description. I can’t avoid thinking that she is going to leave me and go hunting …lizards under tunnel bags, behind the white barrier to the side of the A-frame and on the back wall. Someday I hope I will have her full attention.>>
I can totally relate! But she is a talented dog and you are doing a great job handling her, so it is totally worth it to help her get comfy in the ring!
>>Funny thing about the table… according to Dr. Brainiac, patterns create neuro pathways…or something like that. We have played lots of tugging and food games on the table since she was a baby. Who would have guessed she’d drive to it on a course. 😂>>
HAHA!! Practice makes pathways 🙂 So now we just need to make other pathways too!
>>I was ALMOST using food as a lure? Oh, I assure you, I WAS using food as a lure. 😂
Also relatable! My first agility dogs were Dalmatians so I spent a lot of time with panic cookies in front of them, trying to keep them from running off (spoiler alert: they ran off faster LOL!!)
>>Yes, I will use the up and down game and take the leash off while we do that. I will practice calmness.>>
Let me know how she does with adding the pattern games, right in the ring! And I affectionately call the calmness “Team Fake Chill” because we are not actually calm… we are totally faking it LOL!!
>>The leash is such a big thing! I don’t know who has bigger feelings about it – her or me!>>
Yes! That moment of taking the leash off can be scary if we don’t know what the heck the dog is gonna do. All of these games will help both of you feel more comfy in that moment.
Tracy
Hi!
>>Yes, she really likes the Cato board. I can try it if you think I should.>>
Try it! Make it really fun with lots of cookies and see how she goes! (FYI, UKI does allow Cato boards in the ring for training start lines in NFC runs :))
>>We worked on find my face the past few days and did that after a few jumps (unrecorded). She came right around to my front. ☺️>>
Super! That will give her something else to do if you accidentally disconnect, rather than bite you or hunt lizards 🙂
These videos are sequence 1 of the mid course sequences.
First run on the video (but I think it was not the first run in the session, based on your notes?) – amazing. YAY! You were a little far ahead for the rear cross so had to wait for her. With her speed, pop into the blind cross so you can keep moving 🙂
2nd run – the wind was CRAZY so maybe she was concernd? You noted on the video that you needed your imaginary dog but the run went well. So maybe there was a run left off? She did really well!
Last run on the video, first run according to the notes: SUPER nice!
At the end, you lost a tiny bit of connection on the way to the last jump: you started looking forward at the obstacles and not at her, so she pulled off the jump. Even though she missed a jump and you reacted to it, note how she circled back and found it and then she did FIND MY FACE at 1:20. YAY!! You gave her big praise and it looks like lots of cookies: Perfect 🙂The very last run on th video was the blind at the end. The opening looked great again and you nailed the blind. Happy dance!!!
So yes, keep handling like this: aggressive and connected. And in class where it is so much harder, handle like this but add a cato board to see if it helps her, and starting further from the pressure and distractions. And, add in the pattern games in the ring, and a litlte bit of find my face 🙂 You can think of that game as rewarding her for not jumping on you and not hunting lizards LOL!!
Have you started the remote reinforcement? That is a good one to add here.
Great job!
TracyHi!
Did she say why the breeder wouldn’t approve, or it is just breeder politics? There are lots of breeder politics out there 🙂 I mean, my whippet baby come from world-record holding royalty so it is not like there is anything wrong with the dog 🙂 Or maybe she wants smaller dogs only (both of my boys are over 20″ tall).
Either way, you will definitely want a say in the stud dog. At least the breeder is willing to consider breeding! So that is a step forward. The next step is to gently massage her into letting you have a say in the stud (so many great stud dogs out there!!!!)
T
Hi! I am excited for you to try these when you get her back!!! They will be very helpful for her, I believe.
Sorry about the missing PDF – I had a brain fart 🙂 It is visible now!
Tracy
Hi!
>> He did the up/down game the first time I tried it, but the other times he ignored the cookie. So I switched to the back/forth game which worked. It seemed harder for him to do the up/down game after he was stimulated by the first run.>>
Interesting! It probably has to do with his need to move when he is in higher arousal (back and forth has movement, up and down really doesn’t). You could do a couple of reps of back and forth then try up and down mixed in to see if he can eat. If he can’t eat, try moving a little further away and see what happens.
>> Does this mean we need to play it more in less stimulating environments until it’s stronger?>>
Maybe, or further away in more stimulating environments. What might also be very helpful is practicing the decompression games posted this wee: tugging/volume dial then decompression (snuffle mat) so he gets used to self-regulating.
>> Do you ever up the treat value in the moment?
Yes!
First sequence – very nice! Great send and go on the pinwheel, great connection!! Two little suggestions – move in closer to the tunnel at the beginning so you don’t get caught standing still with no place to go then have to accelerate like mad to get the blind. And, put the toy in your pockets so you don’t switch it from hand to hand when you should be busy running LOL!!
Definitely seems to be a different level of speed in the 2nd video after the volune dial! So you can plan for that! The open section was great. Keep moving in closer to the tunnel #6 so you can accelerate to the center of the bar for the RC. On the first rep you were running straight and he didn’t see RC info til after he made a takeoff decision.
Bar down at 1 2nd rep – even with the wrap verbal, you had a lot of forward motion so he was not sure if he should collect or extend.
You were better trying to get onto the RC line on the wnd rep but call him before he goes into the tnunel, so he exits turned. Yo uwere quiet here so he was wide on the exit and then had to come back and find the jump, so he got the turn in th eair.The 3rd video had the blind on landing side of the 2nd to last jump… NICE! You got there really well and maintained connection! Totally have the toy in a pocket because that moment of changing hands does delay the blind, and he is too fast for even a tiny delay 🙂
The last sequence on the last video went really well too!! Yay!! You were connected really well and hustling – a great combo 🙂 You got the blind with lovely timing. And a nice send to 5 (you did do a spin on the exit of it, but it was well done in that you set up the line and send, and the spin was only to get you up the next line.
He was looking at you a bit on the GO at the end – I think he is watching you to see the toy move. In his defense, you do move it back and forth, hand to hand, a lot LOL!! So run with a toy in your pocket so you don’t switch hands (I am sure you don’t realize you are doing it) and for the big GO lines, you can use a placed toy to get him to drive ahead and not look at you.>> I was trying to understand this last sequence where you RC on the take-off side of 5. Which side do you then pick them up on? I confused myself when I tried walking it so I didn’t try it.>>
It is an unusual angle for a RC, but you can start with him on your left, RC 5 and pick him up on your right for the last line.
>>Yesterday we played the volume dial game and then a snuffle mat. My question is do you usually do just one session (volume dial/mat) and then take a break or do you go back and forth?>>
You can do 2 or 3 reps of this, but long sessions aren’t needed.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Was that his leash at the end of the run there? It took me a minute to figure that out LOL!! He did really well with it – he seems to like tugging on it, which is helpful! You can build on this by putting it on after he gets to it, so that he gets used to the leash going on. And you can have him do that handling loop twice, so he goes past the leash the first time then gets it the 2nd time around. This is a common thing in AKC in particular (passing the exit and continuing the course) so we want him to be prepared.Great job! Do you have any NFC/FEO for him coming up?
Tracy
This is awesome! This is progress!!!!!
An idea for you – there are a lot of noises associated with motion that you can use to help her be in a better state when dogs are moving. For example, the sound of a handler yelling TUNNEL TUNNEL TUNNEL or the sound of a flyball tournament can be playing in the background while you do pattern games! Start at a low volume then gradually turn it up, then add your Kelpie working to it. It is a simple way to add challenge to home training and prepare for harder environments.
Tracy
Good morning!
>>And we were knocking a lot of bars tonight>>
The bars were all either disconnections or late cues, so she was trying to process over the bar. As her experience increases and as your timing gets earlier, the bar dropping will fade away because she is overall a strong jumper!
>>it got COLD here: 85 on Monday and 51 on Tuesday…I haven’t adjusted yet!!)>>
Same here in SW Virginia – it is 24 degrees this morning and I am NOT in my happy place especially because it is the ONE time this year I am teaching locally… outdoors. BRRRR!!! LOL!!
The sequences are going well overall!! Yay! She is reading the lines well and giving feedback on timing. Good girlie!!
And you were generally staying in motion and keeping going when there was a blooper – keep doing that so you can really develop the flow 🙂A couple of suggestions:
Seq 1:
For the opening line, you can put her on a slice at jump 1 rather than soured up to it, so she sees jump 1 clearly on the release and lands facing 2. Setting her facing straight to 1 creates extra turns and is easy to miss (rep 1) or drop the bar (rep 2) The slice line also allows you to be more lateral and have more distance, making 3-4 easier to get to (3-4 is the hardest part of this sequence).For 3-4 – the main thing will be to have more distance on the lead out so you can get between 3 and 4 sooner, so you can start the BC or FC when she exits the tunnel. The reps here were starting after she made a takeoff decision as you were running to position, so the turns were a little wide.
On the ending line – you can totally get ahead as long as you open up BIG connection back to her. There was a disconnection at 7 at 1:00 so she missed jump as your shoulders turned off the line. There was disconnection at 1:45 and 2:31 before the tunnel , so the bar came down there.
One other thing I notice is that when the handling to the tunnel is a little late and you say tunnel over the bar, the bar come down pretty consistently as she tries to adjust. So for now, try to start saying tunnel when she has landed from the previous jump plus turning your shoulders sooner so she
Seq 2:
She is reading the lead out push really well! To help her turn before takeoff of 2, you can be more center of the bar on 2 and closer to the jump, so she jumps turned towards 3 When you are further away from the line and the jump, she jumps long over 2 then turns after landing. So being very close to the line and the jump – then moving directly to 3 after you release her – will set a gorgeous line, more like what you got on the RC rep. I loved the rear cross rep, it was pretty perfect!Seq 3:
Yo can add more of a lead out advantage by lining her up on a slice at 1 as well, so you can be a bit further ahead and so she can see the line 1-2. That will give you time to set the turn at 3, which is the hardest part of this sequence.sThe timing was a little late on these – you were driving to 3 and then starting the turn cues, but she read the info as ‘go long over 3’. That is why you have the off course and then some wide turns/bars. The timing at 1:36, for example, was the best timing here and you can see her turning sooner! That turn cue was happening when she was just about gathering from takeoff.
You can definitely start it earlier: when she has landed from 2 and looking at 3, but still 20 feet away from it 🙂 you can start the verbal and the turn cues. Being further ahead by leading out more can make it much easier to start the turn cues earlier. That would also allow you to set up the RC sooner, to help her see the turn on 5.
Doing the FC between 3 and 4 would start at the same timing, which would give you more time to move up the line to the 4-5 line.
So it all comes down to the land ing of 2 being the spot to start the turn cues for 3 to set up the next line. She is small but has a big stride and great commitment, so it will be fun to see how early you can start the cues!!
>>After a sequence, if I reward Syn with the toy and say good job or something like that, she tends to take the toy away from me and play with it a bit. I go over to her and grab it and then we tug. However, if, after a sequence, I throw the toy and also say “Yay Puppy” or something similar, she runs back to me and offers the tug for tugging. >>
Good question! I watched for this when watching the videos… I think it is just that Yay Puppy is a retrieve cue, and when you don’t say it, you are generally fixing a bar or setting up the next rep. I don’t think she was doing it as a needed decompression, more as a ‘wait for momma to be ready’ moment.
So it is possible that she has figured out that if she doesn’t hear ‘yay puppy’ then she can stay a little further away with the toy. So you can say yay puppy for every reinforcement, tug tug tug tug… then let her go for a run with the toy while you reset for the next sequence if needed. Let me know how that goes
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>I’m happy to geek out about this as I’ve been working on it for months and it’s not improving. So, I’m doing something wrong. >>
I don’t think you are doing anything wrong – I think you are trying to figure out how to have a happy, conflict-free start line and that is really important!
>>Ideally she would understand sit gets you access to agility.
I play a game called “Demand For Jump” where dogs that love to do the agility, DEMAND it by offering a sit or a control position.
Basically, it is an off-shoot of the tug-sit-tug game we did with them as puppies – tugging (changes arousal state, state dependent memory) then a sit or down is offered, then a quick release to tug again. And we gradually extend the duration of the sit or down (at first it is offered and I don’t care which behavior – then it becomes a cued sit or down eventually).
When that age is strong (I love that game because both the dog and I can be nutty LOL!) then we insert it in front of a jump… it becomes tug-offered behavior – release to jump – tug. So if the dog wants the jump, then they quickly figure out that the offered behavior is the cue for ME to cue the jump.
And yes, eventually it becomes something we build into the remote reinforcement game.
Here is a clip with my dog Matrix, a Border Collie/Staffy mix who would tend towards over-arousal around obstacles. On this clip, I was getting her very aroused, and by leaning over, I was maintaining the arousal with the body tension and excitement from me 🙂 I did not cue the down, she offered it – and I released to let her take the jump. She had a great stay and a happy line up thanks to this game!
You might notice that she had trouble looking at the jump initially and offered a behavior facing away from it! It is a fascinating insight into how she was managing her arousal. She would often line up a bit sideways to the jump at trials and would often stare at something else… but always held her stay, always found the first jump perfectly and ran really well 🙂 Arousal regulation is a crazy thing 🙂
I have more video elsewhere, I will try to find it. But we can play this with Sprite!! Super fun!
>> In yesterdays video she offered that sit and I stupidly asked for the hand touch afterwards as that was the piece I had planned. So, I didn’t actually ask for a line up and sit.>>
She offered a sit! Good girl! And yes – the environment is fluid so you are ore than welcome to abandon the plan in the moment and go with what she offers 🙂
>>In class…she cannot be out of her crate when either Aussie runs. >>
A good training goal is to be able to have her out when one runs, even if it is at your car or super far away, using super motivating food or toys. And definitely use super motivating food/toys to help break through the arousal of dogs moving.
>>So, if she’s glancing around on the volume dial then go back to a pattern game? I can try that tonight in class. >>
Yes, definitely try it. Generally attentional states in trained need to go from divided to selective to sustained in that order – and if she is looking around, it means she is still on the divided end of the spectrum and volume dial is asking for sustained. So working to get her into the selective state with the pattern games might be most helpful.
For other behaviors (natural ones, in my experience), the dogs can go from divided to sustained immediately, such as going from sniffing the ground to chasing a squirrel 🙂
>>I don’t think I can do another dog without a start line. >>
Oh, we will have a start line! It is almost there now we are figuring out how to transfer it more successfully into the ring. I don’t want to abandon it, I just want to fade it in, carefully and happily 🙂 Part of my NFC goals is to do runs specifically for start line training.
>>Sprite is capable of staying in a lead out. She was fabulous when I was using food to get the line up snd sit. >>
Yes, in certain contexts, she has it perfectly! So now we expand the contexts. Part of it is internal state, part of it is external environment. You can play around at home with a bowl of cookies on a countertop and doing line up and sit with empty hands, then reaching over to get a cookie from a bowl. That can be fun and get lots of reps of line ups with empty hands. Then you can move further away, etc.
>>Plus, the sequences were easier back then.>>
If one variable gets harder, others must get easier – so if you are working a start line and it is hard, you need to set up an easy sequence 🙂 Or if you are working an hard sequence, make the start line very easy (Cato board, cookies in your hand, a send around a wing, anything that helps her).
>>having a dog everyone thinks is out of control and untrained.>>
Yeah, that is a bad feeling and people are quick to judge. It sucks! But I bet they also have had issues of their own, yet still judge others. Sigh. Dog sports can be soooo judgey.
On the video –
Good practice coming in on leash! She did well here – she was in a happy stand stay and ran really well! You didn’t ask her to line up in a specific spot (you moved her to a generally good spot and then took the leash off). And you had a pretty causal stay cue (leash off, then moment of standing there looking at her, which is the international sign for ‘offer me something” and she offered a stand). You didn’t take much of a lead out and didn’t ask for much, but notice how she was holding the stay on the 2nd run with a lot of readiness for the release! She was a little wide on some turns but I think that was mainly that you were free-styling the sequence and not really worrying about it, thinking more about the pre-run stuff.
Re-visit this game here and there, to gradually keep building it up. I like how she was able to be happily stationary here in front of the jump (adding a position won’t be too hard when you have the ‘happily stationary’ element :)) And try the demand for jump game, it is fun!
>>Of interest, after the last run on this video she decided to snack on hackberries! >>
Good to note! Remote reinforcement is hard and depleting… and hackberries are delicious from what I am told 🙂 One or two reps of this are all she needs per session, mixed in with other fun easy stuff.
Great job here! Keep me posted!
TracyGood morning and welcome to you and your girls! I can’t believe Saphira is all grown up – I feel like she is still 16 weeks old LOL! Time moves fast 🙂
Finishing the obstacle training and jump height training will be easy for you 🙂 How did she do in her trials with engagement and being happy in the environment?
Good morning!
>> I used Back and Forth to get her thinking again and that seemed to work!
Fantastic! Did you try a pattern game before her turn, as you were moving to the line, then a little more after you take the leash off? Let me know! And if not, definitely try it to see if it helps get the run off to a good start.
>>There are people and dogs sitting around the ring with no barrier, so that’s a huge accomplishment for her. She was *mostly* quiet in her crate when I ran her sister. I did not fix any mistakes, when she ran past something we just continued on. I know it’s my fault anyway for not supporting things as I should.>>
That is a hard environment and it sounds like she did really well! The challenge of people and dogs around the ring with no barrier is probably far more difficult than what she would encounter in a trial!
>>That was another reason I decided not to run Tipsy at the trial this past weekend, I was so anxious over her leaving me to go visit everyone that I knew it would negatively affect both of us.>>
Yes, it is stressful for both ends of the leash!
>> And talked to my classmates last night, I guess there were some murmerings about dogs being reactive at the trial, running amok in the ring, etc. Hopefully this will all blow over by the time we’re ready to trial again, but it’s definitely holding me back.>>
Yeah, that was probably part of the fallout of an ugly, divisive social media fracas that made a LOT of people feel badly and get even MORE nervous about starting their young dogs in the ring. Ignore it! Carry on with your training and have fun with your girls!
Tracy
