Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi!
This session also went really well!
She was wanting to look at you when getting her front feet into the box, so you can switch to a ‘get it’ marker, no more need for the clicker. The click is great for getting started but it doesn’t provide placement info. The ‘get it’ marker will both tell her she is correct AND tell her where to look to get the treat (so she will look forward more). She was already looking forward better by the end, but the click was causing her to look at you so I think a ‘get it’ marker will be perfect.The tug breaks definitely kept things fun!!! I think for the next session, you can take this outside on the grass so she can run run run if she wants to 🙂 Now, it might be harder to find the treat in the grass so you can use a manners minder if you have one, or empty food bowls to toss the treat towards/into.
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
Nice job here shaping the value for the box! To fast-track the initial steps, you can click her early interest but then instead of tossing the treat towards her, you can toss it away through the box so she moves to towards the box to get it.
And you can continue in that mode once she started offering getting into the box: toss the treat out of the box so she leave it to get it, then she is moving back towards the box for the next rep.
Nice work!
Tracy
Hi!
Hope you are enjoying the weekend! These sessions had a really lovely understanding of what her reinforcement actually is – you were doing little adjustments of what the reward actually was and it made a HUGE difference.On the first video, she went back into picking it up for a few reps without putting her foot on it 🙂 After just a couple of click/treats, she went into a down for a moment. Then there was a pivotal moment where she picked it up and walked away with it… you clicked that but then asked her to bring it to you. I could see the calculations happening in her brain – the frisbee was more rewarding than the treats, so I think that session ended with her thinking about bringing it to you rather than just lifting it.
You (wisely) rolled with that and used the toy as the reward on the 2nd video. She was picking it up and bringing it to you! Happy dance! Sometime she would stop to chew it near you, so you did one more reinforcement adjustment of letting her take it after a little tugging (the ‘you won!’ moments).Those adjustments will really seal the deal of shaping the retrieves: using the object as the reward then letting her keep the object. Excellent!
You can play with getting her to retrieve non-toy objects by using the toy as the reward – that would be a fun next step.
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
More thoughts about toy play, fueled by a lot of coffee 🙂 I was thinking about this last night and my views on tugging have changed as I learned more about how their brains are working.
>When he’s really I interested in tugging he gets a really good grip or if he doesn’t on the first try his next try is usually even harder.
Around agility equipment he is really not trying to grip at all. He may do a little bite at it especially if I drag it and run, but then releases almost immediately even if I don’t pull.>Toy play is really all about mechanics – his mechanics and how your mechanics impact his mechanics. With that in mind:
To look at what’s happening with the toy play a bit differently (and why I think he is doing well with it): when there are competing stimuli in the environment (especially things that are paired with higher arousal like obstacles), the puppy/adolescent brain is bombarded with all.the.things. and has to process them all and prioritize the ‘important’ ones (influenced by our actions). Also, genetics and epigenetics play a role here too 🙂
And when the brain is busy processing, it cannot devote as much bandwidth to other things that we might think are simple, but they are not simple 🙂 So we see dips in performance or dips in the ability to do things.
And the first thing that loses sharpness under this brain bombardment (multi sensory integration)? Mechanics! That is why we often see novice dogs struggling to execute weaves in a trial environment, for example. And we see puppies struggle too with some things (which is why I like to teach things in tiny bits while also teaching the brain how to process and prioritize)
Going back to toy play being about mechanics:
In the AirBnB and at home, there is not as much to process: he is either familiar with the environment (home) or it is an easy environment because there are very few competing stimuli (AirBnB) or both! So we really do see some good tug mechanics: grabbing, weight shift, pulling, etc.
Looking at those mechanics first: he gravitates towards the smaller parts of the toy (especially the big one) because it is easier to grab – even when he was engaged with the big one, he was one a small piece of it at the end instead of the big part of it.
That makes sense to me, he has a little mouth 🙂 and grabbing a BIG toy is harder mechanics.
And when Ripley is involved with the tugging, the arousal state changes which also tips the mechanics – but into more of a grab/lock on of the higher arousal. We don’t need this from him during training. Side note: A lot of people try to get it by pinching or poking at the dog, but that puts the dog in an ICK arousal state we do not wanted associated with work.
So looking at the tugging in the training facility:
He was totally trying to tug… but his brain was *busy* processing and couldn’t work out the mechanics the same way he could at home or at the AirBnB. Where to put the math, how to clamp, which part of the toy, etc. That is actually hard mechanics!Eating treats requires very little bandwidth from him 🙂 I can relate hahahaha
Part of the working with the mechanics of toy play is figuring out which toys work in difference contexts. The really floofy toy was just a bit too big so he was trying to find a smaller piece to grab, and with it moving he wanted to engage but couldn’t coordinate the tugging mechanics.
So to help him out, yes, keep the toy moving – with some stops so he can pounce on it and grab the spot he wants, the move it again. And keep looking for which toy works best with his current size & mechanical skill: something enticing, but with a lot of flatter/smaller grabby bits that fit easily into his little mouth. When I don’t know what till work best, I tie several together and let the puppy choose what they want to put in their mouth. Agility dogs often want to put the part closest to our hand in their mouth, probably because we tend towards smaller toys that are held higher, but I digress.
And in the harder contexts, semi-tugging still counts as tugging 🙂 One thing we know about puppy and adolescent brains is that the brain might be telling him that he is a TUGGING BEAST in that moment – NAILED IT! – but we see something different LOL! Then he gets confused when we are like “c’mon, tug!” You can also throw the toy for him to chase and then go grab it to move it again.
It is completely normal with most pups in this development stage that the ability to tug hard on the toy waxes and wanes, based on environment, type of toy, life stage. Most of my students over the years and almost all of my own dogs have experienced this (except the Jack Russell mix and the Staffy mix – they were deranged tuggers but I had to work on processing ‘work’ precision over tugging precision with those two :))
So thinking of it as a mechanics question and not a play question from the pup, I try to choose wisely with the type of toy and how it is presented, and I consider gentle/mouthy tugging in a harder environment to be the same as hard crazy tugging in easier environments. And as they grow up, they are able to process all the things and tug like maniacs AND have great mechanics and processing for work.
For example: my youngest dog is a 70%/30% Whippet Border Collie mix . There are some similarities to what you are experiencing with Vibey. I think Vibe has more natural work focus and more natural mechanics with his body, and Improv has more I LOVE PEOPLE focus and has 12-foot long legs that go every which way LOL but they are similar in other ways:
Home tugging is AMAZING 🙂 He has been to a couple of little seminars and recently started a local class. The tugging is different! In the class, he is being asked to work (learning new things) and ignore the other things in life that he LOVES (people, dogs, etc) so he does get on the toy but it is not the maniac tugging on get at home.
But it is all processing: his brain is devoting a LOT of bandwidth to the challenges of ignoring the obstacles, NOT running over to the people to give wiggles and smooches, coming to the mother, retrieving, etc etc. He is wildly successful with all of that – he is by far the youngest in the class and people are so impressed with his engagement and focus and success. But when I feel the difference in the tugging, I can feel how hard his teenage brain is working to balance all of that.
And so I go with what he can give me with the tugging: the toy is moving for him to chase, it is flat-ish and furry so he can get it into his mouth without devoting too much bandwidth to it, because that brain juice is being sent to the ‘ignore the people who are smiling at you’ neurons. And even though the tugging is not the same as at home, it is still very reinforcing because the behaviors we want to build up are definitely building up. Current faves are a raccoon pelt on a bungee and one of those long floramicato toys with fuzzy balls and fur on the end.
And I trust that as he grows up, the tugging will get stronger because mechanics develop. And I use plenty of food. This is the exact same path I’ve gone with all of my dogs (except those 2 terriers) and sometimes I wonder if I ever will get great toy play. But they always end up with amazing toy play because mechanics blossom as long as we don’t worry too much about it.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Not terrible, a little soft. I think I’ll try chicken next>
I bet she will like the chicken too!
>I may have went a little long but the lecture said use alot of cookies LOL!>
Yes! The RC game needs a lot of cookie 🙂 The length of the session was perfectly fine. And you worked out the mechanics really well – getting the cookie thrown in the right spot so you could appear on the new side before she finished eating it. After the 1st rep, the reps starting on your right were perfect.
You made the left turn reps a little harder by tossing the treat straight instead of to the wall, but no problem – you showed her to cues and she knew which way to turn. Yay!!
Using this concept, we can bring back the prop to represent the jump: start the way you did with her on your right side and the prop against the wall, where you threw the treats. You can send to the prop or even toss a cookie to it to jumpstart the game. And as she is going to the prop, you did the RC with the same timing you had here.
When she is happy with that, we can move the prop more to the center of the room like you did with the cookie tosses on the 2nd part of the session.
Strike a pose looked great! I totally didn’t remember that the lineup middle position was something she used to do – it didn’t seem like it even crossed her mind 🙂 She also did really well with the bowl on the ground, no questions. Super!!
>I was trying to line her up with middle when I was using the bowl, but now she’s mixing up left turn (which she can now do on a verbal
) >Yes – she really likes the left turn spins 🙂 She is probably learning the difference between several different hand cues that are similar, so you can clarify the hand cues for each: the spin has the dog side hand and your feet are together, and the lineup cue has your feet separated, and the opposite arm can do the cue perhaps (you did that in the video and it worked great!)
>also had some breaks in her stay, most likely because we haven’t really worked on middle and stay together?>
It is possible that the middle then stay are new together which made it harder, but the transitions from the lineup to the stay and lead out happened too fast on the reps where she moved:
The stay breaks where she moved with you as moved away (:31 and :56) happened because you had your cookie hand delivering the food to her mouth and it was still there as you started walking away. So she never really processed it as a stay and was following your hand 🙂
She caught on (smartie!) at 1:56 when you had the cookie hand feeding her then moving away – you can see her actually still trying to reach for the cookie in the hand LOL but she didn’t move out of the sit.
You can smooth out the transition by cueing the sit and wait, taking a breath and making sure the cookie hand is empty, then walking away. When you did that, she held the stay beautifully.
>I started saying Wait, that seemend to help. I’m saying Wait because that’s what I have been saying for IYC- waiting in her crate until release, at the deck gate, etc… Ok to use that in “agility stay” contexts? >
Absolutely! It keeps things consistent which is good!
>Also, going back to the Stay game and adding more distance & duration too?>
Yes, you can mix those in here and there adding the middle line up to it as well.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
It will be interesting to see what they find on u/s and fecal!
>Her folate is below the “normal range”, but not by much.>
My vet had me put Hot Sauce on folic acid because she said it couldn’t hurt – it is water soluble and she pees out whatever she doesn’t need 🙂 A follow up cobalamin panel put all the ranges back to completely normal. We never found out why it was an issue but the supplements fixed it 🙂
>How important is the shoulder pointing too? I feel like mine turn back to him as my opposite arm goes back. And I’m not quite sure what my inside arm is or should be doing.>
The shoulder should mainly be pointing *away* from the jump and almost forward on the parallel path line past it (to the threadle wide). Shoulders to the jump generally cause front side versus backside questions.
The inside/dog-side arm and hang out with the opposite arm, making it a 2 hand move especially as we pull to set the line, and also keeping that dog side arm out of the way 🙂You can show them the hands then let her see the hands move with the shoulders to set the line. The general order-of-festivities is hands then shoulders to set the line. That will also allow you to be closer to the jump, because being further laterally might pull them off the front side but it does make it harder to get them to commit (and to get a blind cross exit).
And I agree – one jump is HARD because everything has to be so precise or the dog takes the front side. Walking through it here works but you can also jog then decelerate so you don’t get too far past the jump before he turns back to it.
When you added the wing wrap before it you had more motion – for Kaladin, you can probably drive more and decel later. The decel can happen when you are closer to the wing of the TW jump. You were decelerating pretty early so he decelerated a lot!
Looking at Lift’s one jump video: as a young dog, she expected the front side of the jump so she gave great feedback about what she saw!
Being further ahead on the release will help on the one jump as well as on the wing to jump reps. And having the threadle arms up for a few steps before the release helps too so she is sure that it is not the front side.:52 she was finding the line really well, until you kept moving past it – reremember to wait for permission to move past the jump in the form of her looking at it and taking that first step to the correct side.
:59 – the arm was visible but you were not setting the line with your feet and shoulders turned away from the jump. So she looked at you and decided you wanted the front of the jump based on where your shoulders were pointed (to the front side).
On the next rep on the other side, you were a bit further away but also facing slightly away from the jump and she found it well! And on the last rep, she was on the way to he correct side then you stopped and subtly stepped in/leaned in towards her (1:18 right before she barked at you LOL)
I think part of her question there was use you using lateral distance to set the line so she was pretty far from the jump to turn back to it. You can use less lateral distance and more turning away from it to set the line, so she is able to commit to it more easily when she gets to the correct side.
Looking at the sequences: the setup makes lateral distance into the TW pretty impossible because there are off courses on those lateral distance lines
You did a great job of setting the line by turning away from it, but also being close enough to the TW jump that he committed easily. Sequence 1 – Really good set of the line at :05!!
Seq 2: He found it really well on the good set at :17! I think a spin into a blind on the exit will work better – pushing back towards him for the post turn risks accidentally pushing him to the front side of the jump.
On the 3rd sequence – your feet definitely turned away from the jump at :31 so he got it there too! Yay! The line coming into it was a little wide, you can cue a tight left turn on the jump before it by starting those cues when he exits the tunnel. Those started when he was gathering for takeoff so he landed wide.
On the last sequence: great job keeping your feet straight to set the line to the TW after the blind! It is way too easy to turn feet to the jump after the blind, so keeping your feet straight got the info to him really well! You can do the blind sooner so it is finished before he takes off and you are already showing TW info. That way he won’t even have to look at you when he landed.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
Threadle wraps are hard for sure! The magic is in the line we set and how we set it – that is what will make the difference for him.
First suggestion: take the verbal off for now, so you can reward him for everything without diluting the verbal cue. He is reading you really well! Just use his name for now.
Looking at the video:
First 2 reps – he found the TW on these! You set the line from pretty far away then pushed back towards the jump after he got to the TW side. You were walking so decel was not needed as much (more on decel below).Watch the rep at :21 – :23 in slow motion to see more of what he sees:
More speed but no decel and subtle turning to the front of the jump is what sent him to it (subtle for us humans, not for Reacher :))
Similar stepping to the front happened at :47 – :48 where you had the line then opened up to the front which sent him to the front. And also 1:29 – you stepped to the jump before he got to the threadle side (look at your left foot). Dogs tend to process things as if they are in slow motion, so he saw all of this 🙂
At :58 and 1:18, I think he was guessing – you are really lateral but not really setting the line so he is guessing that it is a a parallel path to the front (he looks at you then goes to the front).
So to help him out, 2 suggestions for you:
– send to the start wing from further away, so you are further up the line and showing the cuesfrom ahead of him. Being parallel to him had too much opportunity to accidentally show the front of the jump. You can send to the wing and then run a bit as you set the line, then decel as you set the line and show the hand cues.
– to set the line to the TW, think of it more as letting him see you pull away from the line rather than already being parallel to the line. As he is exiting the start wing, you can be up the line near the jump, but showing a shoulder & feet turn away from the jump as you decel and show the hand cues. And then hang out like that until he gets to the threadle side and turns himself away to the jump (don’t help him with hands or stepping to it because that might push hm to the front side.
I think that moment of letting him see you turn parallel to his line (and away from the jump) will make all the difference! Let me know if that makes sense!
Nice work here!
TracyGood morning!
>I couldn’t include all of our reps in my next video, obviously, but by the last couple, Kashia was just trotting the entire course until the last 2-3 obstacles. Her slow pace made my video clips too long, so I couldn’t include many. She’s just too smart and bores easily!!! >
Since you have 2 dogs to work, you can get more speed overall by limiting their sessions to 2 or 3 reps… then letting them watch the other dog’s turn. That way they are pumped up and a little jealous – and they never trot! Usually trotting is a sign of too many reps or getting bored or both, and we don’t want them to rehearse trotting. So Kashia can watch Kastella do a run or two – then she can do a run or two – then Kastella can come back out. It will keep them both excited and fast!
On the get out arm warm up at the beginning: great connection! She found it easily.
On the sequences:
Both dogs are reading the cues brilliantly! Your arm position and connection looked great so they were able to find the get out lines pretty easily. That allowed you to get to whichever position you wanted for the next part of the sequence. YAY!Small detail: You can stay more connected on the tunnel sends rather than point forward to it – more connection will get the driving to it and pointing to it turns your shoulders away so they have to check in to be sure, or they almost come off the line you want (:46, for example).
You can add challenge to this by running closer to the obstacles. That will show more acceleration so they will go faster. The challenge is for you to be able to still time and execute the skills when everyone is going after 🙂 Kashia in particular runs in collection when you are walking, so you will see more extension from her if you are moving more in the early parts of the sequence. She pcked up speed on the ending lines when you also picked up speed.
Kastella is a bit more self-propelled but more acceleration from you will get more from her too, which will feel more like running her at trials 🙂 On the last run where she was a little tired, she was decelerating when yo were walking but accelerated really well when you stared running.
It will also allow you to show earlier timing – for example, the FC for her was a little late at 1:13 and 1:47 so you can run through the ‘get out’ moment which will get you further up the line for the FC.Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
Working light skills is perfect for keeping things fresh without overwork on the way to a big event.
The tandems went well here. The timing you had at :29 in terms of letting him see the hand cues then turning him away was really good! The rep at :07 where the bar came down had the turn away happening over the bar, which is early in the case of a tandem turn so the timing of turning him away after he landed was really good at :29.
And adding more decel at :54 got a nice tight turn!
A major difference between the tandem and the threadle wraps is that while we need to set the line on both of them – on tandems, we do actually use our hands to flip the dog away especially when it is on the front side of the jump – because tandems, like rear crosses, have a variety of different possible lines so we have to cue them.
I mention it because the threadle wrap does not need us to flip the dog away and has far fewer exit possibilities.
>For the threadle wraps we used to use both arms and then transitioned to mostly dog side arm. I feel like sometimes that’s what he needs and sometimes he likes the opposite arm coming up.>
The TWs can definitely be done with one hand (usually punched down low next to the handler). The outside arm can make it more visible for the dog especially when the handler is not ahead or has to really set the line.
>The issue we have is that if the opposite arm comes up before he’s on the line to the backside he takes it as a front side turn away/fake rear cross/get out cue. >
There are two thing that cause these questions from the dogs:
– when we don’t set the line to the TW by turning to face parallel to the dog’s actual path. Too much pressure/motion to the jump blocks the dog’s TW path and cues the front side. This is the #1 TW error that I see on course.
– when we over-help with the hand or shoulder by turning to the dog (showing too much outside arm) or by trying to flip the dog away. Both of those turn our shoulders and feet to the front side or rear cross side of the jump or both!
And we handlers often combine these 2 errors in the heat of the moment 😂 Decel to set the lines and show the hand(s) cue is also important, even if it is just a tiny bit for the more experienced dogs.
But turning to set the line parallel to the dog’s path and showing the hand cues but not over-doing it will et us good TWs. Sometimes the natural line for both dog and handler *is* to the TW, but I see those mainly on well-designed FCI courses and not on UKI courses 🙂 which generally need us to set the line.Looking at the video: I think your hands were quiet and your hands were not trying to flip him away. Yay!
We can see him strongly considering the front side of the TW jump at 1:06 and 1:22 – that was because you were a little late turning to the correct line. The instant you got on the correct line – he found the TW, no problem at all. You were earlier at 1:22 but on that one, as he was in the air over the spread jump, you were still facing the front side of the TW jump so he landed straight. Ideally he lifts off seeing that you have turned to the TW line so he adjusts to the line before takeoff, then he won’t consider the front side of the jump.
So try to set the TW line before he takes off for the jump before it and let’s see if you get any accidental front sides or rear crosses on either side of the jump 🙂
Nice work here!
Tracy
He did super well here too! The arousal did not seem to be a problem at all for him.
I think the ‘find it’ marker will work better for this skill too – the yes was getting him looking at you, which is why the 4th foot didn’t always hit the mat. If he is looking forward more, than you job is easier because you can just stare at the mat and say find it when foot #4 hits it then toss the treat 🙂
You can also add a manners minder or empty food bowls (as cookie throw targets) to help him look forward even more.
He did a GREAT job ignoring the toy! Yay!
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
He did think it was a bit odd at first but figured it out very quickly. Super!If he misses, just keep walking past the jump (no reward, no marker needed) then turn and go back the other direction. The no reward moment gives good info and continuing to move makes it easier to reset the next rep
He was watching your hands a lot, so 2 ideas to help him look at you less and at the jump more:
– rather than say ‘yes’ which gets him looking at you, you can use your ‘find it’ marker then throw the cookie. That will get more looking ahead.
– You can mark and throw earlier now – when he looks at the jump but before he gets to it, you can say find it then throw the reward. That switches to rewarding commitment choices rather than arrival the jump, so he will commit even sooner and look at you less.
Great job here!
Tracy
Yay for motivation! I love it! He is such a fun partner that hopefully it felt great to get outside and play with him 🙂
He did a great job moving with you/ignoring the toy… and when he saw the barrel on his line, he went to it directly on that first rep. YAY!!
When you asked him to wrap the barrel, it is possible that your footwork turned him to the toy a bit (you stepped with the outside leg) so he mistook it as a send to the toy. Good job rewarding him for not actually grabbing it! But the toy was definitely on his mind, which tells us how hard he was working to ignore it. He did wrap the barrel at the end, but it was really hard for him to wrap *away* from the toy. Good boy!!!!!
You can do an experiment and see if wrapping towards the toy is easier than away from it. Moving with you was much easier than wrapping and he did a great job.
Nice work!
Tracy
Hi!
He definitely loved the manners minder and did a great job hitting the mat!!
To be sure he realizes the clicks of the MM are coming for the mat, you can start adding angles where he has to do a bit of a curve away from you to get to the mat. Your position can be off to the side. Think of it like a clock: mat is in the center and the MM is at 12 – you were at 6 here, so you can change your start position to 5 then 4 then 3 when he is on your left, and 7, then 8 then 9 when he is on your right. Let me know if that makes sense or if I need more coffee 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
>I am deliberately not in the basement because that is where Rusty expects food and goes on strike when it is not available.>
Smart to take it somewhere that is NOT associated with food! Associative learning is powerful!
He did really well retrieving the white cord toy! He drove to it and brought it back pretty directly. I would like more speed on the retrieve, so we can play with using a reward to give him when he gets back to you. It can be another cord toy, or a ball: he brings the toy back to you and when it is in your hand, you can toss the next toy 🙂
>I tried the fur pouch which has had food in it in the past and so like the lotus ball, he wants to keep it for himself so he has the time to try to open it.>
I figured it was a food pouch toy, because it was something he wanted to settle in and eat 🙂 You can use the clicker/shaping approach for this (clicking/treating for him lifting it, bringing it to you, etc) because it seems like he perceives this more as a food item than as a tug toy.
He did like the ball throws too! When using a ball, hold him when you throw the ball until the ball has stopped moving. Then send him to it. When the ball is moving, he is sliding and splatting himself to get it, because balls bounce so erratically.
>>He is a very much “what’s in it for me” type dog. At this point, food rather than fun is very much his “it”.>
That is pretty normal, dogs are driven to get what they want and they do a fantastic job training US to give it to them 🙂 But we can make the toys a lot more fun because he does like to play!
For example, you can tie the white cord toy to another toy that is really long – ideally a 4 or 5 foot long toy! Then you can swing it around, getting him to chase it and grab it. I think he will also tug on the food pouch if it is presented like that – swinging away from him, almost like a flirt pole. The excitement of chasing the toy while it is moving will be very enticing and he will play – the trick is to keep the toy moving away from him, keep it long so it is on the ground, and keep the toy sessions really short because they require a lot more energy (and puppies will stop playing if they get tired.)
Great job here!
Tracy
