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You might be experiencing some adolescent brain stuff too – the more I learn about what is happening in their brains at this stage, the more I understand why they do crazy things LOL!!! It is possible with the regular tenny that her teenage brain is telling her that she 10000% nailed it 🙂 And the eating the softer balls might be a frustration behavior (ewww, this ball is gross, why am I on this ball, let me self-soothe by chewing/eating/destroying).
So rather than increase any pressure by switching balls or insisting on certain behavior, the behaviorists tell us that we will make better progress by backing off – be super predictable, do less not more, let the brain develop. And if on any given day, a “trained” behavior has disappeared – no worries, we just try again another day. The behaviorist vets/neuroscientists have shown the studies to supper all this – causing me to chill out a whole lot with these young dogs LOL!!
So the answer might not be in which ball, the answer might be in take a break because the box work/retrieve is a little too much for a one year old pup 🙂 Let her brain mature, then try again. She is already pretty mature so it will happen pretty quickly!
Tracy
Hi!
>> I GAVE the old guy the wrong direction names, THATS just pitiful!
Ha! Not pitiful at all! Somewhere I have an entire demo video where my left and right verbals were reversed. LOL!! OOPS!!!! I didn’t notice, I thought it was a great session… then I watched the video before posting it. OOPS! haha
And the dogs are forgiving. For something like this, it takes multiple sessions to get the verbals attached, so no worries at all.
>>I need a white board with lefts and rights, plus the whole nine yards of verbals! Was funny, I didn’t even realize that I was doing it.>>
That is why I like to buy a little time by holding the dog before I start, so I can be sure the verbals are correct LOL
>>I have noticed that on a stay he defaults to a down, I didn’t feel very strongly about whether he sat or was down in a stay. But the hand que, without the verbal, he sits nicely. AND add to the white board to work BOTH sides.>>
A sit or a down are both effective start line positions for him. I think what we want to avoid is the movement from one position to the other, because that could easily become movement forward (creeping forward) or breaking the stay. So if you want the down, ask for the down. And if you want the sit, ask for the sit and don’t say stay. He might still want to do the down (it might be more comfy in a high arousal moment) and that is fine, you can go with the down. Plenty of top level BCs start from a down!
>>I loved it when he took the toy to the prop! He was having such fun! I was watching carefully for any movement of him wanting to break, he’s just a hoot.>>
I agree, he is so fun!! And he did a great job with his stay games.
>>Keeping watch for him when we’re trying to reconnect makes sense, I wasn’t sure if coming along side was enough or if I needed him him to be full looking at me, THANKS>>
One of the things to look for in this find my face game is actually the dog NOT doing something – like jumping up, barking, spinning, or biting us. (Or sniffing, but he doesn’t seem like the sniffing type). When we mess up and the dogs get frustrated, adolescent dogs with drive like he has can get BIG MAD and do things like bite us. So if he is patiently waiting and looking at you, waiting for the next info… highly rewardable!!!!
>>I WAS sooo not sure of my placement, ESPECIALLY with a BC, I’ve never done them before these classes!
You are doing AWESOME!!!!! Learning it through video is a little harder but you are nailing it!!!!
>>WOW, I never thought of the praise as being a distraction, but you’re right, the get it made it much more effective and clear.>>
Yep, praise is a pain LOL!! Somehow, we all have taught the pups to come to us when we say and exciting “yes!” or praise – so they look at us. The ‘get it’ type markers are very clarifying for the dogs and helps them know where to go 🙂
T
Just curious, were you using a Mac or iPad/iPhone, or an android or PC? Sometimes when Apple updates their software, the iPads, iPhones and Macs have trouble talking to this software.
Good morning!
>>– It was only after I watched the video that I realized I was clicking on the front foot hits. I was trying to click the rear. Oi!
I can relate! It was probably because you were watching him and not the space in the box. In fact, I did the same thing today and actually clicked CB for jumping over the contact on the dog walk (because I was watching him and not the contact zone). Fun times! LOL!
>>– I initially did do several sniff-type walks. I will get back to that.
Schedule it in on your calendar 🙂 During this stage, it is just as important as any skill we train. And after a training session, you can scatter kibble in the grass or on a bathroom rug with high pile so he can sniff for a little bit. It really helps the dogs.
>> If I am reading your comments right, I will toss a cookie and use get it for a few sessions. Then we’ll progress to a MM.>>
Yes – as you already have experienced, the running contacts experience has many layers 🙂 so for now, just getting the back and forth with treats is good. Before the MM, let’s add you walking back and forth and also a little more lateral distance so he arcs out to get into the box or on the mat.
What exactly his running contact experience will be? Hard to know, but we can adjust things as he needs them. His movement and structure lead me to think he will be fitting nicely into the tried and true rear foot targeting methods.
Tracy
Yikes!!!!
A harder ball might help, but definitely working the ball retrieve separately from the excitement of the box will help too.Yes – it adds the board to it pretty easily. The Skidmarkz trainers outlined the entire progression – I loved it! And i am super picky hahaha I will video as I go so you can see it. Ramen won’t be doing any more of it til the summer when he is a year old, but I will be re-training Hot Sauce’s box with it (she had terrible foundations then a long time off to fix the knee)
>>She is currently getting her ball off the box but loves the ball way too much.
Try a boring ball like a squishy marshmallow ball hahahaha!
>>I am working with Shelly of course 🙂 but potentially she has it. I know, this is an agility forum but since you started it 🙂>>
Shelly is awesome!!
Good morning!
>>There was a lot more noise and action than I was anticipating but I was impressed as well with how he remained working and focused.>>
Yes! And in the video you posted today – so much noise, people, etc- he was awesome!!!
>>From Jamie’s mouth to your ears🤣🤣🤣. She was telling me the same thing.>>
Bwahahaha I am going to buy Jamie a round of drinks and snacks the next time I see her 🙂
“And definitely get the toy play involved in all of this” — I’m not sure why I didn’t use the toy as well. not like me,honestly.>>
I think you were getting caught up in the skills, and we can get more reps in easily with food (same with the video above). So make sure you always bring the toy with you.
“d it is fun to see how he gives such great feedback on mechanics!!” – between you, Jamie and Audie,hopefully I can up my game.>>
That is the thing with training young dogs – they have so much to teach us 🙂 Jamie learned a lot from her dogs and it is SO COOL to see how easily she can pass it along. The dogs give the feedback, it is us humans who try to translate it 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
This countermotion/throwback session went well!
The first minute was a bit of warm up and the real countermotion started at about 1:07 – nice commitment! The left turns were basicall perfect (not a surprise). The right turns were a little harder at first but he sorted them out really nicely, so the last few looked as strong as the left turns. YAY!!During the next session, you can start moving forward sooner because the MM is helping with the commitment!
Since I am bugging you about using more toys and not doing food-only sessions for handling stuff… This session needed toys too LOL! You can incorporate the toy as much as possible especially when the MM is in the picture.
He even held his stay while you yelled happy birthday across the field! Make sure you reward those moments!!
Nice work here 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>.Someday we won’t have snow or storms with bad roads and it will be easier to get video. That day is not now. Anyway we played in the driveway. I am not sure that we will be snowless when Max Pup 2 starts but it can’t last forever.>>
I had my people talk to the weather gods people, and they have assured us that March will be warm, clear, and spring-like 🙂
>>She used to be scared of the Treat and Train, now seems okay, but she doesn’t love it. Sometimes she can leave a preplaced toy but often she can’t resist it, so I am not sure if I just keep trying with the Treat and Train.>>
My Contraband never loved the TnT as a puppy, so I would put the toy on top of it, then when I clicked it, he could grab the toy (it was a frisbee, actually). That really built the love (and allowed me to train with it) and now he loves the MM for food as well.
Judging by her response to the grinding gears (she doesn’t run to it, she waits til you ask her to get it) then you should use it with a toy. If she struggles with the toy on top of it, put the toy inside it then lift the cover and play. How does she feel about the beep? Unless she is afraid of the beep, I would put the beep on too as that can be clarifying as to when reward is available.
>>When I switched directions she had a few misses. I can tell she gets worried about this and I am not sure what I do that worries her also what I did/didn’t do that caused the misses.>>
The first miss was at :;45, when the MM was triggered while she was in the stay. And since the grinding gears sound basically says that cookies are available, you can just let her eat the cookies, have a laugh, and reset. (This is especially important because the MM is not high value yet).
It looked like you kind of dove on it there and also at :55 where she went to it immediately (possibly because left turns are harder than right turns, possibly because it had triggered early a moment before…)
That pressure of you moving in to withdraw a reward (a reward that she doesn’t really love anyway LOL!) was off-putting and punishing to her, so you got displacement behavior at :58 (low head, slow movement, appeasement body language moving towards you). So basically if something goes wrong with the TnT – no worries, just reset and try again. She already thinks the TnT is a little weird, so don’t make it weirder by diving on it at all LOL!
I think the toy on top of (or temporarily inside of) the TnT will make a big difference, so definitely try it! And you can try it separately from the serp game – just have her do a hand touch then click the MM and play with the toy, so she understands the context.
Countermotion serp exits looked great!
The right turn exits were easy peasy – good mechanics and I think that is her preferred way to turn. The left turn exits went well, they are definitely a little harder. She had one question: at :24, she almost didn’t take the jump. It was because you were looking at her instead of the landing spot. Compare to the following reps where you made the adjustment to looking at landing at :33 and :48 and :55 – perfection! yay! And your toy placement and marker were great on all of them.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Puppy sitting is so fun! And I am glad Promise loves her too!!
Both Prytty and Annalise got a workout on the tunnel rocking horses! Looking great!!!
Annalise, great job here:
>>. The toy was too much of a distraction when we tried it. Head explosion! She could only focus on the toy waiting on the finish line or in the hand. Didn’t include that video. It’s all of her headed to the toy- exit with to>>
It might have been too many concepts together all at once to have the toy on the ground AND learn the tunnel rocking horses LOL!!! So it was smart to switch to the Treat n Train. After she gets the the cookies from it, remember to engage with her (can be with cookies or toys) as you move back to the next start area.
As she learns to go to the wing with the tunnel AND treat n train behind her, you can start a little closer to the wing to help her commit to it, especially on the right turns. The left turns looked easier for her here.
Your connection was almost perfect!!! Two little spots needed more connection to get her to go to the wing wrap: 1:02 and 1:25. I heard you saying the verbals (yay!) so one thing that helps me remember to connect is reminding myself to say the verbals to the pup, not to the wing LOL!! So as she exits the tunnel, be sure you are looking at her cute little face and saying the verbals to her as she passes you (yes, while you are running the whole time :)) You nailed it at 1:58 (connection, running, verbal, timing, keeping your arms low) – that was perfection and she knew exactly what to do 🙂
She did well on the countermotion game too!
>>Serpentine exits countermotion. She did good here. She was getting a wee bit tired>>
Yes, she was a little tired (there was a lot of running and brain working on the tunnel rocking horses LOL!). And also I think she was delaying the release because she was like “wait, why is Annalise FACING me and where should I be going?” So she was definitely thinking about it a lot 🙂 She got lots of good reps and the power nap will help her brain remember it 🙂 Super job paying attention to the mechanics of where to look (at the landing spot) and throwing the treat. You can also put the treat n train there (on the landing side of the barrel) to help deliver the rewards.
Amy, I laughed out loud when she managed to get you soaked at the end LOL!! So fun!! I am glad everyone had a blast 🙂
Tracy
Good morning! The nosework workshop sounds fun!!!!
The minny pinny looks great – the line up is very clean, she seemed happy with the collar hold, and the verbals soound good. Yay!
Two suggestions:
– use bumps on the ground or lock the bars into the 2 inch cup – she is having trouble with her footwork on the turns so the lower bars will help for now.– when you begin the verbal, say it two or three times before you let her go, so she hears it before the moving starts. That can help attach it to the behavior even better.
Looking at the rocking horse video:
Her commitment and turns looked great! You can definitely move the barrels further apart so you can both move more 🙂 You should move to the advanced level of this (more movement and rotation) and then add the next games, with the spins and racetracks. Her commitment looks ready for you to be able to move to those.Also, add in your wrap verbals and more connection. Be sure to make more direct eye contact as she exits the barrels, especially as the handling gets fancier 🙂
>>I think her barking in the double barrel exercises had to do with the fact that we were away from home all day and she had lots of energy to release. But then again, most of my terriers have been barkers in agility. It also seems to be a common trait among agility Kerries (my own and others I know).>>
There are a couple of reasons we get barking in agility: barking from excitement, when the dog is barking and continuing to work (looking at the line or barrel). And barking from frustration, when the dog barks at the handler and briefly doesn’t know where to go.
With her barking here, I think there was a little of both happening: Maybe it was pent up energy, or maybe it was the joy of moving (like when she was at the barrel and did a little bark) and maybe it was that she wanted more connection (like at :30 where you were looking ahead when she was behind you, and she actually jumped up a little and barked AT you). So adding more connection will totally help get rid of the frustration barks (think of it as her saying “WHERE?!?!”). She might still excitement bark! But that is fine. And it is possible that as you add more speed, motion, and distance between the barrels, she might not bark at all because she is busy LOL!!! The barking here could have been that there was not enough motion. We will find out soon as you play the next games with the barrels 🙂
Aha, here is the advanced level, perfect!!! These are looking really good too – I heard wrap verbals happening (yay!) and she DEFINITELY liked the extra action 🙂
>>In the heat of the moment on this one when sending Hola to the barrel behind me I’m still not sure if I’m using the correct arm.>>
Generally you are – for example on that first rep, you had the correct arm visible on the rotations at :15, :20, :21 but not :18, where you did a cross arm. Think of the correct arm as being the exit arm of the FC. The same help true for the other reps – you were able to decelerate and rotate to use the “new” arm and she did well!!
She totally liked using the toy here! And she did well with the countermotion, I didn’t see any real questions from her. It was a little harder, yes, but she still nailed it 🙂
Since we were talking about barking above:
There were some little grunty noises at the beginning but overall I think she didn’t have time to bark because there was a lot of action 🙂At 1:27 you got a bark because you were late (she is very judgey lol) but then at 1:31 you were early (too early on the rotation by maybe a step) but she didn’t bark, she just went and committed. Yay!
On this video and on the previous video, most of the barks involve the left turns. So possibly left turns are harder? But either way, it is fine and she was quieter as the game got more exciting in the last 90 seconds of this video.
For example, at 1:50 – 2:00 (and after that as well) you were timely with lots of motion: There was no barking, she was too busy too bark haha and her commitment looked great!!!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>Bob has been a little on the crazy side the last few days – seemingly out of the blue. Tried the moving serp drill yesterday and he was beyond over the top.>>
Could be normal adolescent brain changes, hormones, weather, needing to run around more, needing to go on a sniffari, all of the above, none of the above. He just couldn’t process it, for whatever reason.
Now that there is a veterinarian/neuroscientist in dog sports who tells us what to expect with adolescent dog brains, I am MUCH more chill when we have sessions that go wonky. The MM not working and changing the picture to the toy and treat target didn’t help, I am sure, and then being asked to stay or be held… overall, I am glad you didn’t force it. It is possible that he had a different brain day, or the MM not working through him off – and teenage dogs cannot bounce back from changes like that in the same way as baby puppies or adults (I can actually show you the study that tells us this. Science for the win!) So hopefully you abandoned the session, just played or went for a sniffy walk, and come back to it later this week.
And definitely make sure he gets out on sniffy walks!!! It turns out to be incredibly helpful (and calming for the teenagers – my baby dog slept for 2 solid hours after the 3 minute sniffari demo LOL!)
Our understanding of teenage dog brains is that a wonky session like this is both 10000% normal AND to be expected. In adolescent brain development, they can literally wake up with a brain that is entirely different on Monday from what it was on Sunday. No worries – the learning is still there and will reappear.
Excellent choice to do a relatively simple thing, and something *different* here 🙂 Plus, you were not moving so it was easier for him to process. And it went really well!!! On this session, you were building value – clicking front feet in the box.
So for the next session, you can mark rear feet not front feet (can be first rear foot to begin with, then mark 2nd rear foot only).
The trick to marking rear feet: stare at the box and do.not.watch the dog AT ALL. You were watching him here (your head was moving LOL!) which is fine for front feet but won’t work for back feet. Just stare at the box LOL!!
And about the marker: you can now get rid of the clicker and use a “get it” marker and toss the treat. The clicker can cause more of the looking at us, and the ‘get it’ will help him look ahead more.
I am not worried about him looking at you right now, it will go away in the next session or two when add in the MM.
>>I don’t know that I have a mat as big as the pvc box I used. Should I try and get one and work on both?>>
The box is mainly to do concept work – I think the mat will eventually be better for his contact work (the mat progression has proven to be incredibly effective for dogs that are build like SB and move like SB). So keep the box for the next session or two, to get the back foot markers going – then you can go to a mat. A cheapie walmart yoga mat is a good start, because you can get it for $5 and have no remorse about cutting it up into smaller pieces. The first mat work should be relatively big then we reduce the size of the mat.
Great job! Let me know how it goes with the back foot markers 🙂
TracyGood morning! Both posts came through – did you get an error or something? Seems like the internet was wonky last night 🙂
This session was good! In true flyball fashion, you had music playing LOL!! And in true flyball fashion, I obsessed on it in slow motion 🙂 She did well! My favorite rep at at :25-:26. Good footwork there! Watching in it slow motion, her front end in particular is slipping on the rug, so do the next session either on flyball mats or on turf (you might notice I bought a roll of turf from Amazon that is now in my living room LOL!!! Yes, I am a nut but I figure no one will judge me haha). The slipping was what was causing the wider turns on some of the reps (could have been a bit of fatigue because the game is so plyometric? But I think it was slipping). She also did best when there was a moment of stop in between reps. For example on that :25-:26 rep, she was straight and relatively stationary when you cued the over and back. On the wider reps that had more double taps of the front feet, she was either coming in sideways and in continuous motion, or offering it. So be sure to reward her, then make her stop and line up (sorry not sorry, Snap haha!), then cue it. That will get the best power and footwork!
I will be using the progression with Ramen and Hot Sauce – my other youngsters were trained with the mat progression (and they have great box turns). But, because I like to obsess… this progression is producing some of the fastest dogs in flyball so I am willing to give it a try LOL!!!
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>.My bad thing about teaching Woof and Quiet is I’m super bad at putting that into a behavior chain. They woof, so I can say quiet so that I can reward for quiet. So I kinda teach my dogs to woof when I’m teaching them quiet… LOL. Bad Trainer! But I’m sure he will learn it quickly!>>
It is not that you are a bad trainer, it is more like theory and reality don’t match 🙂 In theory: if we put barking on stimulus control and never cue it, the pups won’t bark. In theory. In reality… they don’t shut up bark bark bark hahaha! I don’t mind it because the barking as a trick is SO helpful to get focus in dog sports. All of my dogs bark on cue (and yes, there are times when my house is noisy because PAPILLONS hahaha)
>>This boy has the attention span of a knat. LOL. Like 5 seconds. 😀 but it’s something to build on!>>
Yes, but it is fine. He is doing brilliantly and I wouldn’t change a thing about his perfect little self.
>>I will do some more of the arm/leg send to the target too, and the barrel, to help him understand.
I had to go back to that a bit too with my pup, who is basically the same age – it is like they had a moment where the skill broke down but then it came back.
>>Not only does he have a short attention span, is just so immature too. So I’m trying to enjoy the cute puppy age. But sometimes he tries my patience! He was chewing up the rug this evening so he was put in the crate with a bully stick instead. He’s so busy!>>
Yep! Totally relatable. If I can’t directly watch the pup, I will put him in a crate with something to do. They are busy AND still teething AND they don’t know the rules of life yet (although my other dogs are VERY helpful with that LOL!)
>>I did get a working spot in Max PUp 2, but now I”m not sure if he’ll still be too immature for that class. Think he’ll be okay? I figured I can puppy stuff down for him if needed.>>
I think he will be fine for MP2 because there area handful of us with dogs the same age: Casper, my Ramen, the baby Goldens Audie & Prytania, and a couple of others. They will all be in the 7-8 month range in that march time period. What happens in that time span is they make massive leaps forward in transferring the concepts and they are not yet fully in the throes of adolescence – so we might start them all with a puppy-version of the game then build it up.
And because I will be training my pup alongside, I will be able to break things down for the younger dogs so we all advance together. It will basically be 2 tracks – our baby babies, and the pups that are going to be over a year old when we start.
>>Today at flyball practice he LOVED the circle of love and seeing All The people and getting treats and then chasing me for a toy.>>
YAY! I love it! And he engaged with the toy on the recalls? SUPER!
On the video, he was interested in the crunchy bottle tug when it was moving (but it was a little too much pressure when it was kind of dead in front of the person who was very energetic LOL!). So you can attach it to a long toy so you can drag it (or she can drag it) and he can chase it.
After an circle of love experience or two, I stop doing the circle of love stuff with my dogs and move to the pattern games and engagement with me, so that they learn to ignore the other people and dogs. If he leaves you to visit, no problem, the other folks should still cheerfully greet him and give him a cookie – but we start to shift the games to more momma focus pretty quickly.
>> That pretty much burned up all his brain cells. LOL.
Well yes 🙂 Flyball training is a really high energy level and it burns a lot of glucose. And basically the brain is powered by glucose so literally, it might have burned up his brain cells LOL!! You will see the mental stamina improve but even with the adult dogs, our flyball training sessions don’t go longer than 5 to 7 minutes (with rest breaks built in) then a massive break between sessions. It is an intense sport (but super fun).
>>But we tried some counter motion… and I put a harness on him for the Super Fun Place and he didn’t even seem to know it was on. But All The People are SO COOL that he couldn’t really do anything but be a puppy. Which is okay, it’s all fun! Man he LOVES that training barn!>>
Perfect about the harness, and perfect about how much he loves the training building and people. Yay!!! Those are the most important things: positive emotions 🙂 And now you can start to bring in othre games he loves to shift things towards more engagement with you! Flyball doesn’t start any real training on the box or jumps until the pups are well over a year old, so engagement is really all you need at this point.
Great job here!!
TracyHi!
His commitment is looking really good here on these, which makes it easier to work out the different handling!! One thing that was particularly excellent was that even if the handling was not perfect… you rewarded him anyway because you were working out what you needed to do. I wish I could convince EVERYONE to reward their dogs like that – big click/treat to YOU!!!! It made him very happy to keep trying all of the different moves 🙂First video – super job on your FCs and the race tracks! Your connection was super clear and he had no questions.
You added the spins on videos 2 and 3. On the second video, at :03, your spin was good when you turned towards him like a FC then did the BC. The spin is a FC-BC combo 🙂 so starting it like a FC then doing the quick blind is what gets the tight turn. Your second one was a blind cross (:22) where you turned away from him instead of towards him. You can see the turn was a little wider because of that (although we do use blind crosses to get crazy tight turns sometimes :))
On the 3rd video, you were getting the smoothness of the spins: :23 was correct (FC-BC combo) and so was :38, which was also really smooth and quick. You are definitely getting it! Yay!
2 suggestions to add:
– add your wrap verbals, so you don’t say “go”. Since go will mean big huge straight line extension, we want to get the wrap verbals on the barrels at this stage.Also, you can stick the toy in your pocket so you don’t switch it from hand to hand. Switching it delays your timing and draws his eyes to you instead of the barrel (like at :04 on the 2nd video). And since the rewards for this don’t have to be precise (you can whip the toy out of the pocket as you keep moving), having it stuffed into a pocket will make it easier for you both.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
