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Hi!
>> I think it’s actually reducing her barking and angst in between reps (does that mean there is operant conditioning at play?),
Probably not operant conditioning at all (that involves choice and consequence), probably more like a neurobiological stabilization of the HPA axis (return to baseline) and some classical conditioning to a happy/relaxed emotional response and frustration reduction. There is some science that repetitive things with the mouth (like chewing) are also relaxing for the dogs.
>> but it’s hard to explain the purpose and how it’s helping to others. You have given me some language to use to help with that.>>
Perfect! The other option is to say that you are working with a behaviorist (you can cite Dr. Murphy and Bobbie Bhambree) and this is there advice to help reduce the angst and the running off to chase things – and it is working.
It is a MASSIVE head exploder when we realize that most of what we do is not operant at all – I still can barely wrap my dog trainer head around it LOL! But it also explains a whole lot of what happens with dogs (and humans :))
>>I just spent way too long reading about studies in mice and internal state conditioning and operant vs classical learning, lol.
Welcome to going down the rabbit hole of animal studies – fascinating! And there is some amazing info about reinforcement and dopamine. Dr. Murphy did a webinar about when a reward is a reward (and when it is not) and I need to watch it 3 or 4 more times because it was AMAZING and makes my head explode haha
>>Yes!! I love seeing her driving to the tunnel! It’s been such an issue for us in the past.>>
I think the next step of tunnel love conditioning will be to have you SUPER close to it with handling pressure and countermotion, etc. That seems to be where she gets some BIG MAD going too, so you can tweak any of these games to run right to the tunnel and slam on the brakes – and reward early & often 🙂 I often place the reward inside the tunnel so the dog only has to step into it to get rewarded, rather than wait for the dog to do the whole thing.
Tracy
Good morning!
I can’t believe how much bad weather you are getting hit with! EWWWWW!!!! It provides good non-running opportunities to train but dang, it would be nice to not have such bad weather. No rush on the training – I will definitely add extra weeks to this class for all the folks who are stuck with horrible weather.
Wowza, he was particularly brilliant in this session – I was really impressed with how well he could go find the tunnel when the jump was miles away and on an angle that made the jump a bit of a backside (on the first side)
Took a minute to “find” the jump on the new side but then when he sorted it out… no problems. Finding the jump on the other side of the tunnel was HARD for sure but look at him processing the verbal!!!! The ‘out’ definitely helped and he then was fine when you faded the arm cue. You can probably fade the ‘out’ verbal too as he gains more experience.
Since it looks like the mud will be around for a while, you can stick with this challenge for now – and add a line of motion. You were really good here about having your position and movement look really the same for each cue – so now you can draw a line in the mud 🙂 that you can meander along as you are cuing the jump or tunnel. That way you can add the challenge of “process the verbal while I am moving”. The line should be just parallel to the tunnel and ideally you can move just past the outer wing of the jump. Let know if that makes sense or if I need more coffee 🙂
Then when the field conditions are better, we can go back to the handling. I figure if we keep things open here til the end of March, everyone can hopefully have time to play while avoiding the bad weather.
Great job here!
TracyGood morning! Hope you didn’t get too much more snow!!
This skill is going well!
Remember that you can reward “almost” on reps, like when she almost took the tunnel on the first rep (but not quite :))She had a lot of success here, which is great – there was motion but not really handling, so she did a great job processing the verbals as an important element. Super!!! On a couple of the questions or oopsie moments, I think that she just heard the verbal after the movement started, so you can change that a little:
Since it was too slippery for the turning of the wrap starts or running, but you can replace the wrap starts with the collar holding, so she can process the verbal before you start to move, which simulates the early verbal timing of the wrap exit. That can help her be even more successful!
Great job here!! I am sure we will give extra time on this class, probably at least another week, so if the weather is bad there is no need to try to get out to train. Stay safe! Stay warm!
Tracy
Good morning!
Great news about week 1! It sounds like week 2 is going well –
>> I just couldn’t cue the turn over the jump with the BC fast enough.>>
Did they both end up in the tunneL? That blind is HARD for sure 🙂 The trick is to start it sooner than you think humanly possible LOL that way it is done before they take off. And if you were nice and early and done with the cross but they still ended up on in the tunnel – it might be that connection needs to be stronger. You can try doing it with your arms tucked into your ribs, so you can make very quick and very direct eye contact when you finish the blind. This will be particularly important for Watson, who is so small that he will need to see a very dramatic connection (maybe even dip your shoulder down to make that connection).
>> Which lead me to a question about Handling Challenge 4 Seq 2 with the Forced front cross or BC -Threadle to take the jump. I was considering stay on the wing side and cueing the jump from there instead of coming into the gap. Is this a bad idea?>>
You can definitely stay on the landing side instead of going into the gap to get it, but also you can practice going into the gap so that you have that skill in your tool box. You can et the boys up for more success by moving the jumps further from the tunnel so that can see less tunnel, and also you can ‘block’ the tunnel entry with a couple of wings or turn the tunnel entries down so it is less enticing. Let me know how it goes, and see you later!
TracyGood morning!
I hope you are past the bad weather! It has been a crazy winter. I loved the horse watching in the background 🙂I swear that every time I see Fritzi work, she has found a new gear of speed. She was SO FAST here!!!!
Starting with handling challenges 4:
The tunnel sending looks great!She read the FC beautifully at :12. You start it sooner so it is finished sooner, to tighten up her line (she was no drifting wide or looking at the tunnel, she was responding to the timing).
The blind at :23 (and again at :31) was SUPER AWESOME. Good timing, and she read the side change perfectly: tight and fast! I couldn’t hear if you were using verbals on that one, but I do recommend using a threadle-slice verbal as you finish the blind so she is 100% sure of which side of the jump you want.
Side note – because she reads the BC so well, it is definitely a better handling choice than the FC in this context for you both. It is easier for us humans to do it fast and the BC keeps you further ahead than the FC does.
The mini sequences also went really well! She was a little wide coming out of the tunnel – I think a right soft turn verbal before she goes in will help that, then switch to the ‘here’ threadle verbal when she is exiting. I think the ‘here’ before she entered was not as clear because it has something to do with jumps, so she exited kind of straight and looking for a jump. The right soft turn verbal can be more specific: turn right on the tunnel exit, then the here will make more sense to her because it applies to the jump she is on the line to.
The switch away session went well!
Switch away on the jump was easy for her 🙂 And she had no problem with the balance rep. For the tunnel exit switches, you can send her to the entry from further away so you are more visible at the exit sooner – that way she can see the hand cues before she exits. The timing of the verbal was great! She still needs a little bit of physical cue help, so being at the tunnel entry sooner will give you time to show it to her. She has great tunnel sends so it won’t be hard at all!
And she was wonderful about finding the jump and the backside after the tunnel as well! (It was smart to warm up the backside before adding it to the tunnel switch away :))Great job here! You can definitely start the switch away sequences (Handling 5) and then that all works into the Super Combos 🙂
Have fun!
TracyGood morning!
>>Yes, this is still a big issue for my fast twitch girlie lol!!! I will try the toy in hand. Sometimes, we fair worse with the toy in hand though, because she then tends to look at me right as she is flying over and drops her feet. She’s looking for the throw. Might need to do the hide in the pants trick for the toy.
You can totally have the toy in a pocket – we want success and then eventually running with a toy in hand will be something to add back in. For example, I can run with a toy in my hand for CB, no problem, at home. But it is too stimulating when I am doing NFC at a trial, so I stick it in a pocket.
>>She does the same thing in trials sometimes with the last bar! She was excited here since we had not practiced for so long! She gave me her trial jumping behavior! Which was great!>>
Yes, it is good when that happens! For the last jump – can you get her to target to her leash or the leash bucket, or run to the fence? that will keep her going and help with the bar.
>>We are still working on the jumping classes. They including adding in all these distractions. I just need her fast twitch muscles to be a little less responsive or maybe just more thoughtful 😂😂😂!!!>>
Yay! She is only just 2, she will sort it out – so many elements to jumping skills with super fast dogs like Promise!!!
T
Good morning!
Super nice session here and he seemed PUMPED UP for these games LOL!!!The tunnel sending looks great throughout the session! Nice timing from you and nice commitment from him!
>> 1st blind is late, 2nd one is pretty good and the 3rd one (later in the video @ 1:09 ) is not quite as timely as the 2nd one but better than the first one. Is that how you see them?>>
Yes – the first blind was a little later than the others but he still read it well. The other two were great!
The verbals on the blind-to-jump either got really quiet or disappeared LOL I think there was a verbal at 1:10 but you can add and start the threadle verbal soon – when he is lifting off for the first jump, the threadle verbal can be in progress for the 2nd jump as you are finishing the blind (so it doesn’t have to be blind-then-threadle verbal, because that might make the verbal late).Mini sequence went well too! Great timing of the turn verbal! Adding the threadle verbal for the jump after the turn verbal on the tunnel worked well (he had a little question abuot which side of the jump on the first rep without the threadle verbal, but no questions when you added it). And I love how independently he took the jump on the threadle, especially on that last rep: you were connected but miles away, and he still went and took the jump. YAY!!
Great job here!!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>I may have made the setup a little wonky to fit it in my space. I had to really swoop-send her to the wing so I could get into position to drive in between the jump & the tunnel.>>
I think the setup was great – lots of handling challenges!
Look at her driving away to the tunnel more independently! YAY!!At :14, she took the backside after the FC – not sure if that was what you wanted, but when she landed from the first jump she definitely can see bot sides of the next jump. And since you didn’t cue a threadle, she was a good girl to take the backside (staying on her line).
You called her at :24 but a threadle cue will be even clearerThe blind to the threadle was GREAT at :30… with the one exception that the threadle was late. That, plus her relative lack of experience with high speed jump threadles, caused her to go to the backside (lower body motion overriding upper body/verbal cues).
You were earlier at :36 (name instead of threadle verbal) and she got it nicely! Then she got it with the threadle verbal after that. Is ‘close’ or ‘here’ the threadle verbal? You were using them both for the threadle slice.
Then the mini sequences at the end looked great: she seemed to have no trouble driving away to the tunnel after all those jump-jump reps! Super!
This brings us to:
>>, I missed the nuance that some of the exercises are about the movement too.>>
Yes, and also helping us sort out what the dogs need for handling. It would be GREAT if all they needed were verbals LOL! But the physical cues are important to know – for example, specific to Frankie at this stage:
When she has to choose between pating attention to your lower body (line of motion) versus upper body/verbal, her name is incredibly helpful! You can use her name as a “heads up!” that something is coming, such as “Frankie HERE HERE HERE”. This is good to know and it helps with her verbal processing!!!Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> I am starting a nosework class on Monday with Nox! Bobbie talked about the benefits of it for dogs with behavior issues, so we’re trying it out.>>
FUN!!! There is a lot of science that tells us that olfaction (whether in sport or life) is tremendously good for all dogs. We used to be so obsessed with the “OMG DON’T LET THEM SNIFF” but now we are smarter – thanks, science! LOL! Also, cross-training in different sports is beneficial for all the sports!!! Someday I will convince you to try flyball 🙂
>>I vote for Wednesday or Thursday for the live chat, >>
Maybe Thursday – Weds is a day-long airport adventure to pick up a puppy, if all goes well (and yes, I am insane).
Looking at the video – super nice session!!
She turned away nicely to start and then needed the extra step to the tunnel which you gave her on the 2nd rep. After that, she seemed to have a lightbulb moment and really didn’t need any more motion help in that context.
When exiting the tunnel, she also got the turn away but there was some cursing and wideness LOL!! The outside arm might help here too – you had it moving after she turned away, but you can show her the outside arm before she exits the tunnel (along with the timing of the verbal you were using) and use the outside arm to turn her away more. That way you can fade out the motion cues and she can read it using upper body and verbal, which sets up even more distance & layering. And it is also possible that the turn was to her harder direction and it will be easier going the other way. On the demo video, all the switches to the left were easy and tight for Contraband (who is a lefty for sure) and the switches to the right were wider.
Nice balance reps, no problem at all! She doesn’t seem like she would want to randomly flip away to a tunnel. And she also doesn’t seem to want to flip away to the jump after the tunnel.
Since this went so well – warm up the next session with a quick refresher of the switch on the jump and on the tunnel exit, then go into the sequences 🙂 Have fun!
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>>He will be 3 on March 16 but he is still a baby in so many ways. I am considering auditing the Got FACE as he is def fitting the description of “the dogs with some distraction “!>>
Based on what I am being told from the behaviorist/neuroscientist who also happens to have GSPs and Weims…. 3 years old is still in the adolescent stage especially for male sporting breeds 🙂 And yes, the Got FACE class is helpful even if you don’t have any big “problems” – excellent tools for all of us!
Tracy
Hi!
This video is marked as still processing… youtube is a pain sometimes! Can you repost?
>>I think she was mostly relying on body cues at this point.
That is fine! It is a new verbal and I dn’t want to give the mistaken impression that we only want verbals – physical cues are really important too.
>>Finally, in your last email you told us to let you know if we wanted to do another live chat. I am always game for that, lol!>>
Thanks for the reminder! Hmmm, maybe next Monday or Tuesday….
T
Good morning!
>>Since she has a tendency to leave me, especially when I disengage at all, I will often throw cookies for her and give her “search” cue, which means find food on the ground. I’ve been told by other trainers not to be a “Pez dispenser” and just give out cookies for nothing (although that was more for when she’s just standing next to me and I’m talking to the instructor, but it serves the same purpose)>>
First of all, let’s get this straight: Pez is delicious crunchy sweetness and dispensing Pez makes everyone happy!!
But in all seriousness… the concept of being a Pez-dispenser comes from back when we thought ALL learning was operant (which we now know is NOT the case and operant conditioning is a small piece). While it might look like “cookies for nothing” to others (I mean, everyone likes cookies for nothing, so I don’t see why that is bad either, feel free to give me cookies for nothing any time LOL!), it is actually very purposeful and intentional on your part: you recognize a struggle she has in arousal management and in ignoring triggers of the chasing or barking behavior, so you are setting up success during those “in between” moments. Plus, those Pezzy moments also foster a really happy feeling for you both – you are both relaxed and focused on the game – so you are getting a lovely positive conditioned emotional response, while also making things predictable in a good way!
>> Do you think there’s an issue with my process or is it ok to use the cookies to keep her from leaving or getting super barky and angry? (Apparently “barky” is not a word. How is that possible, lol?)>>
I have no issues with your process, and as someone who gets to see you and Nox semi-regularly – the improvements in all areas on course are BIG so clearly you are doing the right things in many ways!
What is happening when you dispense the Pez is neurobiological (internal state conditioning, resilience conditioning) and not operant – so the aforementioned Pez is not a reinforcement and therefore does not need to be ‘earned’. If anyone wants more info, I will pull up the studies 🙂 And you can tell folks that you are using food in those in-between moments to keep her arousal in an optimized state. Just make sure she swallows the treats so she doesn’t choke them up LOL!
So keep on Pezzing it up! And now I want some Pez. And my next puppy might be named Pez LOL! Plus, barky should totally be a word.
Onwards to the video – she has made BIG STRIDES with finding the tunnel while you layered and run away!!! Yay! There is some real tunnel love building, and tunnel rage is reducing. Both sessions on this video looked great!
And the cross to the threadle looked great – the BC is definitely harder (this is where she dropped the bar) but she sorted it out. There is a LOT of motion and that can make the tunnel more obvious to her, but the verbal and connection were saying ‘not the tunnel’ so she just needed to process it. I don’t think she had any other questions on it. I think the BCs put you on a better line than the FCs did, plus the BCs will keep you further ahead which is always a good thing.
The mini sequence looked strong too – a “right” verbal on the tunnel to get the exit will probably make more sense to her, you don’t need to start the close verbal til she is facing the line to the jump the close is for. She exited turned but not really sure of where to go next, so a right verbal before she enters will help then you can switch to the threadle.
Overall, this looked great!
Tracy
Good morning!
>> Some Issues with the threadle. Still not a strong skill for us. It’s low on the totem pole of things lol!!!>>
You don’t really need to prioritize jump threadles til you start doing AKC Premier or higher level UKI courses.
tunnel send looked good – try to add more distance each time you try these types of drills
The FC to threadle looked really good! Nice line, connection, and timing!
>>The first threadle she knocked the bar twice.>>
My guess is that at full height, the visible toy plus you saying “get it” over the bar were what brought the bar down on those. You delayed the “get it” when you lowered the bar, both of which helped – but a big thing for her is to learn to ignore the distractions of the verbals while she is jumping, so keep talking over the full height bar but for now, make it a little easier by NOT having the toy there.
Threadle slice on the other side looked good! You can call her before she takes off for the first jump, which will get her to start turning and will helped smooth out the line to the threadle, That way you won’t have to exaggerate that much.
Great job working on the threadle wrap!!! It is definitely more of a rotated, slow motion move – there is decel and shoulder turn involved for sure. So as you add these to sequences, be sure to work each element in decel: turning your shoulders and feet away from the slice line (otherwise it will look like a threadle slice), grabbing her attention with your hands to flip her to the wrap, then cuing the jump. If it feels like a slow motion move, it is because it is indeed a slow motion move 🙂
>> Would like to be less rotated, but had to be more exaggerated to get it.>>
As she learns it more, you won’t need as much exaggeration. But the decel is the key and you did a lovely job showing it to her 🙂
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
The moving games are just as important because they teach the dogs to process ALL the parts of handling, not just verbals and not just feet! Plus it is fun to run run run 🙂
On the first video:
The tunnel send was great!
On the blinds – you can be sooner to start (and therefore finish :)) the blind and also be closer to the jump. If you move away from the jump to give him room – it takes out the need to threadle , but that position also opens up the possibility that it is the tunnel 🙂 So he ends up wider and with a little question :13)
You had earlier timing on the next rep, but the line was a little wider so he was a little wider.At :26 I loved your timing and line – you cued the backside there (nailed it!) but you can also use the same line and threadle to the front of the jump. That line makes it a lot clearer that it is NOT the tunnel. :31 was good too!
I grabbed some screenshots because the visuals might help explain this:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ukb9T4R5-fWxVyENapetiYYW00tr4ARlHl-KRVuaE7w/edit?usp=sharingThe threadle slice had a bit of a Goldilocks approach:
Not quite enough info at :37 – he never really got a jump cue so he didn’t take the jump after the barrel.
Toooo much jump info at :45 – you were clearer about the jump but didn’t cue the threadle til after he landed.
:59 and then 1:04 was just right 🙂 He got the jump info AND the threadle info.
Then it was great to see him alternate between the jump and threadle – NICE! The only thing to add to the threadle is a bit of a turn cue on the jump before it. He only needs a little name call as he is approaching the jump after the barrel, so he can add a turn stride – then you can switch to the threadle cue. That turn stride will make the threadles much easier.>>Threadle Wraps are a LONG way from fluent!!!>>
As he learns these, the main thing is to make the cues look and sound different. The line of motion/footwork here looked identical to the threadle slice. So to help him get the threadle wrap when there is motion, you can totally think of it as more of a pull-then-flip:
As he is landing from first jump, you can pull him in by turning your feet towards the wall/doors and picking him up with your threadle hands (and verbal). Then you can flip him away – so your feet won’t point towards the threadle slice line at all. And that will make sense too, because the exit of a threadle wrap would be back towards the barrel (so turning your feet towards the wall/barrel helps) and the threadle slice would always exit parallel to the teeter.>> How would you like to do a 3 week session on just Threadle Wraps and Threadle Slices?>>
Hmmm that is a good idea for a spring class or for a part of CAMP!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>Forrest decided the shortest distance between the jump on the right and the jump on the left was not THROUGH the tunnel but OVER it…oh well.>>
HA! The joys of young dogs 🙂
One thing to remember about adolescent dogs (and he is definitely an adolescent) is that during the learning phase, a session might seem like it was all poopy and nothing go taccomplished… but then latent learning kicks in and the next session is much better because the brain DID learn it and cemented it during the sleep between sessions (the neuroscience on this is fascinating and helps keep me calm when my adolescent dogs do funny things LOL!)
>>I know I said I was going to get myself “in gear” but I can’t say I’m impressed with the gear I chose>>
You were good!! I was happy with your gear 🙂 It might feel better if you leave the ball in the pocket til after the handling – on some of the reps, you had your hand in the pocket holdin the ball, which inhibits the handling. So feel free to use your hands for handling – the ball throw can be a bit later.
Looking at the videos:
First video – these were actually threadles on the backside of the jump (more like the mini sequences). They looked good – he did the 1st and 3rd rep brilliantly at a distance! The middle rep with the blooper was was only because you moved a little too soon.
The reason they were the threadles and not switch aways was that he started on the turn-towards-the-momma side rather than the turn-away side of you. To turn them into switch aways – start on the other side of the tunnel, with him on your other side. So that way, you can set up the switch away with the outside arm
2nd video – he definitely responds well to the opposide arm to switch away from the jump to the tunnel (:28). When you did the dog-side arm (1st rep) or the opposite arm was late (last rep), he was correct to keep goin gon his original line. So for the switch away – you can brinp your outside arm before he takes off for the jump, so as he is jumping you have his attention and then can use the arm to flip him away to the tunnel.
Super combos –3rd video: Nice start to the super combos!!
1st rep – good job going past the tempting tunnel entry!!! 2nd rep – he just needed on more step to get commitment to the jump. 3rd rep and 4th rep had that step so he nailed it. Yay!
4th video –
nice switch aways on the jump and tunnel on the first rep! You can use more of the opposite arm on the tunnel exit. For example, at :11. he is exiting and you are using your dog-side arm (right arm). That turns your chest/shoulders to the straight line which is why he didn’t turn til after you stepped to the jump. If you show him your left arm then ‘flip’ him away with it, his line will be smootherAt :15 – he was perfect about coming past the tunnel but then you turned your back on him, so he didn’t know where to be and looked at you instead of taking the jump. I grabbed a screen shot of that moment so you can see what he saw:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqbYkmBs78AKaoX8GxtFzT10Zh07zJilWMG7dhQGClg/edit?usp=sharing
The start of the next rep looked good! And he jumped over the tunnel at :52, but that was a legit response from him 🙂 You were on his line, and his line told him to go over the tunnel (and you said over, so…. LOL!!!)
I think what happened was that after the backside push (which was good!) you did a post turn so he ended up on the wrong line. After the backside, a FC or a spin will get him on the correct line (with no tunnel jumping :))
I also put a screenshot of that into the doc so you can see why he jumped the tunnel:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HqbYkmBs78AKaoX8GxtFzT10Zh07zJilWMG7dhQGClg/edit?usp=sharing>>I really think I would be better at all of these if they were part of a course…at least I hope so….>>
Absolutely! These drills have ALL the things all happening at once, no moment to get ready 🙂 A real course will have a lot more room and more time to show the handling. So a real course should be easier 🙂
>>Glad we have til the 14th to submit as I definitely want to redo the Super Combos >>
Plenty of time, and hopefully some good weather too! You are doing a fabulous job with getting these games posted 🙂
Nice work here! Have a blast at the trial – because he is young and in a new place, remember to really exaggerate the connection and keep your arms back, pointing to his nose. Usually with young dogs, they need extra support at trials, so give big connection and go close to obstacles (closer than you would at home). And keep me posted! I am rooting for you!!!!
Tracy
