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Hi!
>I am intrigued by the same words being both the marker and the cue for where to get the reinforcement. I have always separated that out, especially to make sure that the marker doesn’t mean “leave me to go get your reinforcer,” but your explanation makes sense and we will utilize your version.>>
The dogs tend to respond to the first part of the marker or cue – if yes is the start of the marker, that is where most pairing will take place. So get it can totally be like a click, and it provides both the click and the placement info! The dogs learn this very easily 🙂
And depending on the marker – the dog can TOTALLY leave you to go to the reinforcement. That is what it means – reinforcement is available now in that spot. Otherwise we build in unwanted behavior between the marker and the reinforcement delivery (generally too much looking at us LOL!). So if “yes” means you are correct then there is a slight delay of not leaving for the reward before the next marker, he will add in looking at you and/or moving towards you, which is not what you’ll want in a lot of behaviors.
>>What is the ideal instant focus object? I just grabbed something off the shelf at the training center for the video.
Anything that is easy to put front feet up on or into is great 🙂
The engaged chill is great! YAY!!! It helps you and Riot have a chance to breath 🙂
>>When he finally got his turn, he gets very aroused and starts to spin. This is something he has done since he was young. He doesn’t do it much anymore. I usually try to distract him or ignore it. I opted for ignoring it tonight and then trying a pattern game. I suspect you have some thoughts on that?>>
Yes I have thoughts hahaha! The spinning is a self-stim arousal behavior rooted in frustration that usually tips the dog out of the optimal arousal state (to the “hot” side of things) plus there is a physical component of overuse that we don’t want – so I always stop it if it starts but ideally, prevent it from starting. Can he stay on a bed while Stevie trains or you set up a camera, or chew a bully stick? That can be good for reducing frustration. If it starts when you enter the area, you can start the pattern game before you even enter to help him moderate that internal arousal and choose an alternate behavior.
On the tricks video –
You can use “snacks” or “cookies” for the food-in-hand marker instead of get it.
He has a TON of great tricks! As soon as he starts the spinning in the beginning, interrupt it somehow – you can do a cookie toss for get it, or a gentle collar grab, or a chin rest – but don’t let him continue it. And probably don’t use spin as a trick LOL because we don’t want to start him spinning particularly at the start of the session hen he might be less centered.Love the paw touches to your foot! The through tricks are good – so many good tricks!!!!
For the ‘get it’ tosses as active tricks – we want the handler to be more passive in the pattern games, so the dog gets to choose the engagement. You were a little too exciting here 🙂 plus we want him engaged with you and not running for treats in this scenario.Without treats in hands – lots of good tricks here too! Yay! You can do a whole freestyle routine! Love it!!!
With all of these cookies – you can use a more active delivery – rather than handing him the treats while he is stationary after a trick, you can have him chase your moving hand and eat on the run (not a tossed treat, still comes from your hand) as that will definitely add more energy 🙂
He seemed to like the engaged chill 🙂 Yay!
>>I see I sometimes say “get it” when handing him a treat. I will need a new word or phrase for the pattern game to avoid confusion.
>>One more question. I am renting the agility yard on Friday. What would be the most useful thing for me to video for this class?
I suggest 2 minutes of each game 🙂 Pattern game first, then tricks (1 minute wiht cookies visible, 1 minute without visible cookies). Then volume dial before you run a sequence. And some engaged chill mixed in 🙂 You can also do a little Instant Focus shaping and some line up games if you have started those. You don’t need to do them all in a row, just little bits and pieces to see how he does in the new environment 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi –
>>My instructor Gillian Crawford and I have a question for you – do you have a place in your repertoire for using physical stimuli to raise arousal? For example we might use restraint in recall training, or push back on the dog’s chest then run away to start a chase game.>>
Ah, this is a big topic. There are times I touch the dogs, or hold a collar… but only when I am 1000% sure that it is fully associated with positive reinforcement, that the dog offers the collar and the position, and the dog thinks it is super fun. You can tell the dog thinks it is fun because they offer to participate in it and move into the handler when the handler asks to do it. And I’ll only do it when the dog is already having a grand time in the environment, and it is never ever associated with punishment or low rate of reinforcement. So I might do a gentle push back, or a restrained recall, or a ready-set-go with a collar hold like we do in flyball – but that is a trained, highly reinforced game that the dog opts into and enjoys. Not every dog likes that (one of my dogs absolutely HATES restrained recalls in sports.) It is not designed to do anything other than have a super playful way to start – but the dog can also start a zillion other ways. If the dog says “ewww this is icky” then we do not insist on making them do it, especially in the ring. Instead, we find ways to split the behavior and help the dog understand that it is great fun, then build the behavior from there.
If the dog has opted out for whatever reason, these hands-on games are NOT good for raising arousal because that is when people start to push the dogs, pull back on collars, move the dogs around physically, push back on chests, poke the dogs, tap the dogs in the face, grab at their feet… when I watch this as an observer, I will tell you that the dogs are displaying classic body language of “this is aversive”. The handler gets reinforced because they dog gets frustrated and when there is no escape or other options, you might get a moment of speed (escape). Having watching this for a couple of decades – the end result in the ring is never what the handler really wants because the underlying emotions are not what we want for creating fast, happy agility runs. More on that below.
Also, I never move them by the collar across the agility ring, very few dogs actually like that – moving the dog is always a hands-off procedure (or on a leash). And if the dog digs in and does not want to move with me to the start line or the start of a sequence? I won’t make them do it because all I am doing in that moment is making things icky. Instead, I will try to figure out what has gone wrong with the reinforcement and/or environment that the dog is opting out.
(Insert people arguing that dogs have to be moved by the collar because what if they are running across the interstate, etc etc etc… my argument back is if we make being moved by the collar icky in sports training, then we definitely will not be able to grab them if they are running across an interstate LOL!! Collar grabs should be trained behaviors that the dogs love love love, not something we need to make them do in the agility ring)
>> I ask *not* as a trick question to be reassured that dragging my dog around by her collar is okay.
IMO, I agree with you that it is not OK, and it can be quite detrimental in a lot of ways. If she is telling you that she is opting out… hands off is always the answer and figuring out what has gone wrong in the reinforcement or environment is the better path. Dragging her back when she is clearly saying no can cause her to avoid you in the future when you reach for her (and that is never good for sport or life) and it definitely produces a negative conditioned response to the environment. The same goes for irritating her to try to increase arousal.
>> But I do see that when I have irritated the heck out of her (sorry Zippie!) her arousal *is* up and her response to cues is much better.
Well, when using physical interaction that is aversive to the dog you might see that the arousal is up, but not in a good way internally for the dog. She is frustrated and irritated and probably has no way to tap out. So in that moment, you get some speed and you get some cookies into her… but that increases the negative conditioned emotional response to the environment (being touched, being in the ring).
And when you cannot use a hands on way to get her irritated, or move her by her collar, and when you do not have cookies: the dogs default to an extreme end of the emotional arousal spectrum. So some dogs will get hyper-aroused and fast but super frustrated, not able to think as well, and not happy. And other dogs will go to the extreme other side, of being really slow and tentative, then tapping out as soon as they realize that neither the aversive nor the positive reinforcement are going to happen. So it ends up not having a successful outcome overall.
>>I have never used a lot of physical play with my Basenjis (I do with my terrier), but maybe I should try some things, a’la Volume Dial game to see what works? Or wait for a future game pack?>>
Video what you want to do, without her. Use an invisible dog, and we can then decide if it is play interaction, or possibly aversive. I use cues and tricks and ‘naked play’ (playful interactions where I might touch the dog, depending on the dog) without cookies in the volume dial game – but nothing that would irritate the dog. That is not the state that I want my teammate in, heading into the ring.
You’ll see the difference when you do it without the dog. Happy play interaction allows the dog to come to the handler, the handler moves away invitingly, the dog is interested in pursuing the play even thought the dog has every opportunity to leave if she wants to. Aversive interactions have the handler moving towards the dog, and the dog moves away for the most part (and turns head away, looked around, sniffs, shows displacement behavior) unless the dog gets mouthy when it continues because they are frustrated and the only option left is to interact but not in a happy way.
Think of it from the human perspective. You are in a situation where you are not entirely sure of what is happening, you are not being paid all that well, you are a little uncomfortable… and I come up to you, get in your face, and start pushing you on the shoulder. You can’t really leave the situation, but you give me some body language and maybe ask me to stop, but I persist. You will definitely get irritated… how do you feel in that moment about the situation? And how do you think you will feel the next time you are asked to go into the ring with me LOL
>>This question was inspired in part by what happened today, but we’re not asking for permission to repeat what happened today, I promise. Today’s class was a 7 obstacle sequence, working on my handling for a backside jump off screen. I set up the camera to get the start and finish, which was almost a loop so we could retry our handling in flow a couple of times. You will not be surprised that she was slow at jump 1-2, but once we got going her energy was great,>>
I tried to count the rate of reinforcement on the video, but I didn’t see enough of what was happening to be able to know for sure. One thing I did note was that your reinforcement is producing the behavior you actually don’t want 🙂 The first tricks before you started had a lot of reinforcement, but all of the food was delivered in a passive way, standing still. So that will produce a lower arousal state, and more standing still. You can use cookies as a toy – do a trick, run, get her to chase your cookie hand as you deliver it. That is an active reinforcement and gets a higher state and more movement.
The other thing that happened was that you were tossing cookies in the dirt near that first jump during reset moments… so she was sniffing in that area after that because she had just gotten a bunch of cookies in that spot and the smells where there (and she might not have known what else to do). This is another moment where active use of the treats will help and also, engaged chill so you can listen and plan, and she can be ready for the next sequence..>> until on the third time her arousal was lower, she missed a jump, I tried to restart (because the approach was relevant the backside skill we were working on, otherwise I rarely fix missed jumps) so now we were on a 4th try …. and 4 times was probably too much.>>
This would be a great place for a reset reward! Oops, missed a jump, you’ve already done it 3 times… here’s an active reset reward to keep you in the game. Missing jumps is a handling error, so I always give reset rewards to the dog.
>> So I went to get her, we reconnected with a couple of tricks, and the my instructor wanted me to finish with the easy part of the sequence. I walked her over to the “new” start line and when she started to dig in her heels my instructor asked me to be persistent. Clearly I need to train hand in the collar outside of agility if I want to use it, but starting at 2:26 after “relief” she ran better than average, including on her next turn.>>
Looking at the learning theory behind it – classical conditioning is the umbrella that covers the whole situation (that is the conditioned emotional response element) and the operant conditioning is what can skew the classical conditioning. So the continuing to drag her against her will can be considered a positive punishment (applying an unpleasant/aversive stimulus to diminish a behavior) and the ‘relief’ is most likely negative reinforcement (which is the release of the unpleasant stimulus to build a behavior). Those are the 2 quadrants that I work hard to avoid ever using, because operantly they are not nearly as useful as positive reinforcement and negative punishment. And, classically: they produce a negative CER. And the CER is the make-or-break in dog sports where the dog has to opt in when the leash comes off and the cookies are outside the ring. I protect that CER like gold, and it is the very first thing we plan with puppies nowadays.
>>I want to be clear that I do not want to integrate punishment and relief from punishment in my training, but Gill wanted me to ask you about physical stimulus in arousal games and thoughts you may have. >>
The best think to do is list and videotape what physical stimuli you have in mind, then classify them – are they aversive, designed to irritate her? Or are they super fun and she will enjoy them?
Another way to look at it… would you also use the physical stimuli as positive reinforcement for behaviors you loved and would like to see more of? If yes – then super! If not, then don’t use them 🙂
Food for thought! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This is a really good start!
A definite part of this is seeing what he naturally does in different scenarios. Leaning over him to pet him was not as successful as when you got on one knee – that is when he went into the down and did actually chill for a moment. Try gentle petting of smaller areas: chin, chest, maybe even an ear?What would happen if he had his front feet on your thigh or stomach, and you maybe scratch his chest?
All good stuff to experiment with. And also, you can do 30 seconds then end the session. If you and Fever are exiting Team No Chill, then you only need to be on Team Chill for super short bursts 🙂 And after a chill moment, you and he can play because that will be fun! We will sort it out! Thanks for trying this! Keep noodling around with different things and then the natural chill will reveal itself (you will have to fake your chill, but his will be real haha!!)
More on Chill coming next week 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Lots of good work here! One thing we will look at are which games need energy from you to help start and maintain the game… and which do not need energy from you because we want him to do the work 🙂Pattern games- these are games that need very energy from – he is going to do all the work 🙂 You can now wait longer between cookies: let him look at the environment (if he wants to) and then choose to engage back with you. Being too quick or energetic can serve as a cue, but we want him to choose it and not be cued to do it. The reason is that, ultimately, he will need to choose to engage especially when cookies are not present.
You can bring this game to class and run throughs, to be done nearer to the ring and other dogs. Start as far away as needed so he can re-engage successfully but close enough that he can he look at the distractions.
Volume dial is also going well! This game CAN have your energy and excitement because it is all about play 🙂 when you use a food reward, you can make the cookie more toy-like by moving it around for him to chase (in your hand, so it remains interactive, and not tossed away from you).
He looked great with this tricks! Don’t forget your middle trick here as a volume dial game. 🙂Remote Reinforcement – having this established will be a big help!! When you mark the behavior, you can just use your ‘let’s get it’, no need to use yes first . The ‘let’s get it’ tells him he is correct AND where to go to get the cookies 🙂 The Yes marker doesn’t provide quite as much info, and also we don’t want yes to mean to go back to the cookies 🙂
Hooray for massage as engaged chill! What is his favorite massage body part? This will not be for the waiting in line moments, it will be for before then (at this point). It was interesting that he was breathing hard here – was this after the games with more action? Or does he breathe harder when massaged?
Action tricks with cookies and leash – very true to life 🙂 but he did well! Maybe they were not as perfect as when there is no leash but still great. That leash gets in the way a bit, but it is necessary to add. And remember his middle trick for this game too 🙂
For all of these, move them to as many different rooms and locations as possible, away from the training area. He is right on track for the new games 🙂
I’m excited about the mock trial!!! We can put together a big plan for success!!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>We will go back to the basic pattern game. I will see if she will tug with me in the pattern game. I did teach her ‘tug’ as a command, but it is not her favorite. Hmm. Can I toss the ball as part of the pattern game? I now have two that she likes (both red 😉 ), so I could alternate tossing one and then the other to her.>
If tugging is not a true reinforcement in the moment, stick to food. For the balls…if you toss to her, will she catch it? That can totally going the pattern game? Picturing her on leash and in close quarters, a little ball toss could be really fun if she will catch it and doesn’t need to chase it.
>>For engaged chill, she likes to sit or stand next to me, get her neck rubbed against the grain of her coat or have her butt scratched just above her tail. She also likes her face rubbed. So, I will work on those for engaged chill for now and continue to look for other things.>>
Perfect! The engaged chill is a piece that is hard for so many dogs!!
>>We will also keep building on the remote reinforcement. Phew! She is both the most amazing and most challenging dog. Crazy that we are still working on this at 9.5/almost 10 :-O, but who is to say there won’t be another, and I don’t think she is really ready to retire yet. Maybe this will give me a head start the next time.>>
I agree, she’s not ready to retire, she’s got a lot more to teach us. I’m grateful that the 9 year old dogs have more to say! It helps them and also help us prepare for the next generations 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
I’m glad you are using the MaxPup prop – I didn’t even think of that because the Instant Focus game developed before the MaxPup prop games LOL! But it already has a ton of value so it works beautifully for him.You can also elevate it a bit but taping it to something for him to step up onto. That’ll make it even more salient when we build on this soon.
Sniffing the strange objects was perfectly fine and I love how he came back to work the prop with no help. The moving tug toy in your hand was harder LOL bit that is fine, just a bit of wishful thinking on his part perhaps (are you gonna throw that, mom?)
I’m glad that he is doing well with it in trial settings too! To prepare for the next steps, you can take the prop into different rooms of the house (bring Ripley too, of course haha), plop it down, do a couple of clicks/treats for interaction (just 2 or 3) and if latency is pretty low, pick it up and go to the next room. Lather, rinse, repeat LOL in various rooms, probably totalling 15 cookies 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I think increasing your speed went really well!!! He looked good! And I am glad you are feeling well enough to run again!>> These are very hard for me. I feel like I’m the cause of the mistakes but also the verbals need to be great because I can’t always be perfect.>>
In training, take an extra moment to plan before each rep. It is possible that you are moving back to the next rep too quickly. Plan the verbals (directional and marker), the start point, the physical movement/cue, and the placement of reinforcement. I think you were planning the start point and directional, but not the marker and placement and that is where the little bloopers happen. It adds an extra 5 or 10 seconds between reps but that is fine because then the rep itself will be really precise!
Adding cookie resets will help with those in-between moments and also will help resetting after an error. Friz throws will heat him up quickly, so cookies will be reinforcing AND keep him a little cooler.
>>So we had a bobble on the first set of BS slices because I got so focused on my path relative to the bar that I rewarded way too early so the second time he didn’t feel the need for the jump.>>
Yes, amazing how one reinforcement for behavior we don’t want can change things and 10,00000000 reinforcements for behaviors we do want don’t seem to help hahaha (RDW pops to mind). But also I think it lets us know that he is relying on the hand cue to take the jump bar (on the other reps you did the hand cue with the frisbee in it then you dropped the frisbee). So, to help strengthen the default behavior of taking the bar, drop the friz in as soon as he arrives at the backside wing, so he rounds the wing looking at the bar and not at you.
>>Enjoy me sorting out the wing because you said post turn or spin but no front cross. I imagine this is what scent work feels like to dogs. Mentally taxing 🤣>>
It didn’t take nearly as long as it might have felt! And good planning makes for good training!!
He did really well with the soft turns on the front and also with the backside circle wraps (loved the reward placement there!). On the backside slices, he does his best when you are moving along the position 2 line (center of the bar) with a bit of connection – that work that for a few more sessions and then start inching over to position 3 :). That center of the bar backside line is already better than most dogs out there, so I am excited to see him be able to do it!
>>I will probably move on to the serp drills next. I’m really happy with how he’s setting himself up for l and r.
Same! Happy with the left and right and you’ll use those a LOT on course!
>>He really does better with those than I deserve.>>
You totally deserve it! You have worked on becoming a great teammate with him, lots of reward and joy! A good time and high success rate is well-earned and well-deserved for you both <3
Tracy
Oops, sorry! It turns out that the site can’t read my mind and only posts thing when I click the post button. Oops! It should be visible now.
TracyGood morning!
An idea about the verbals: For the Sprite and right sounding similar – Shantel with Zhara the Schnauzer makes her right verbal sound more like “aaiight” (reminds me of the New York way of saying alright hahaha) and the emphasis on the AYE sound will help it sound distinctly different from the SPR of Sprite 🙂
The sig zags were easy for her! She was responding really well on the 2 wings so going to 3 wings was the right choice. She had no trouble with 3 wings either: impressive!!! Nothing seemed hard for her and that is fabulous!
So there are two ways to proceed on this one: you can add wing 4, then wing 5 (might take several sessions to get to 5 wings). And, separately, you can go back to 2 wings then 3 wings and shorten the distances (which make the zigzags happen faster, requiring more coordination). How far apart were these distances? Looked to be about 8 feet but video can be deceptive. The goal is to shorten the distance to get her to where she can do this with the wings 5 feet apart and eventually 4 feet apart. So you can shorten maybe to 6 feet and see how she does – if it is too hard, open the distances up to 7 feet. If it is too easy… go to 5 feet 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again 🙂
Nice work on this one too! The wraps are easier for her in this setup (more value and probably also an easier skill to execute. The tunnel is harder – she is tall and Has to duck down to get into the tunnel. So, as you cue the tunnel: keep supporting the tunnel verbal with motion towards the tunnel and watch for her to lower her head to be sure she is committed. Then you can move away. On the first couple of reps you moved away too fast, so she came with you to the wrap (which is easier for her). On the successful reps, you waited til she ducked her head to commit to the tunnel and then she was perfect 🙂 The wraps looked great here!You can keep playing with the tunnel-wrap mini sequences and even some tunnel-tunnel-wrap mini sequences too 🙂
Great job!!
TracyHi again! I am glad she likes the toy enough for this game to be challenging 🙂 Her stay is definitely coming along nicely!
Because she wants to release as soon as the toy hits the ground, you can split the behavior more by dangling the toy a little – then releasing. Then lowering it… and releasing. Then eventually working it to the ground and releasing. That can set up a lot of success while maintaining the joy for the toy 🙂
I like what the toy is producing with her movement on the flat and over the baby jump. She is moving with her head low and a really lovely open stride. She is a little pouncy on the toy as she arrives to it, but that is not a problem because the toy will be pretty far from the jumps when she does arrive to it so she can pounce on it right at the end 🙂Great job! You can move this to the set point. Because of her size, I think you should start at 7 feet between jumps and if she looks too squished up, you can move to 8 feet. Let me know how it goes!
TracyGood morning! Welcome back!! She looked great and congrats on the conformation points!!!!
The wrap verbals went really well – I like how she is turning, leaning into the turns with her head and bending through her body. And your verbals sound distinctly different from each other, which is also a big win. Yay! It is possible she thought this game was a little boring because she was looking for something else but no worries, you can add more motion to it in the next games 🙂
Nice work!
TracyGood morning!
>> pretty much sucked as a handler on the tunnel exits. I was late on my verbals and wasn’t very connected.
Yes you were late on the verbals, however she still got a ton of reinforcement and it appears she had a great time. She forgives any lateness and I score the session a win – any time we can get a TON of reward to a dog around agility equipment without telling the dog she is wrong is a big win!
Also… TOYS!!!! Didn’t you just tell me she had trouble with the toy at the building and here she was, playing with the toy, chasing the lotus ball, etc. Super!!!!!
One thing about connection – on the wing wraps for the turns like the wraps and left/right turns, you can stand up and connect. You were bending over to make a big connection and it was slowing you down. Try to make the connection of looking at her eyes without bending as much. Your arm can be back and you will be looking at her eyes but not bent at the waist.
And for the GO lines – yes, getting ahead of her to get more connection to the wing wrap totally helped! She seems to have really nice tunnel commitment, so you can send around the wing and to the tunnel from further away so you can more easily get ahead of her at the tunnel exit.
You can also move the wing in closer so that she sees it better. For the other 2 wings… move them further away so you have to run more hahaha 🙂
>> I guess I should have met her closer to the tunnel on the turns as well.>>
I think on those, you can be more lateral because she will see you moving that direction before she enters the tunnel, which will help her respond. If you race down to the end to meet her, she will confuse that with the Go cues.
So on the next session, put a leash down on the ground 6 feet in front of the tunnels to help get the timing before she enters. And, you can get the verbals to sound different: – the left/right can be repeated and softer, and the GO can be longer and very loud 🙂
Nice work here!
TracyGood morning! This is looking really good!
Your upper body and connection and footwork all looked strong on the serps! You mentioned needing to have your arm back and down more, but I think you were good here!! And he was great about coming in on the serp line each time. No problems at all! And also, great job with the verbals.The FCs went well too – the FCs when you ran away from the serp jump were fine but too easy 🙂 At 2:00 when you did the FC and ran past the serp jump: that was a great challenge (he nailed it :))
You were generally engaged with the rewards even when they came from the MM, which is good – keep reminding yourself to engage with him and not walk away and plan the next rep!
A couple of reinforcement ideas:
Remember to use the markers especially if you are just dropping a treat on the ground.
And there was an odd moment at 1:39 when you did a wrap cue, he was correct… no reward, then you tried to do a serp. Both Brisk and I were like, “wait, what just happened there?” LOL!!! So keep each rep separate and distinct and rewarded 🙂The other thing you can add are line up cookies – that will get him back to your side and into position with a lot of clarity. Without them, there is not as much clarity and he is not always sure of where to go. So, using a line up cookie to line him up for each rep with make it easier and faster for you both 🙂
Great job here! Fingers crossed for lovely weather ahead!
Tracy
