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Good morning!
>>All dogs were up, just sharing the space from a kennel and or ex pen.
He says that is too much 🙂 Especially if the dogs were not the usual friends in that environment. But – instead of agility, can he do tricks for swimming in that environment? Play friz? Agility does not have to be the primary thing installed at the moment. Engagement can be the primary thing installed. Next Monday, I will also be posting some engagement installations and I think that will help him too.
>>I’m really trying to add more distractions so hopefully we can trial someday but can’t quite get from sterile with no distractions to working past more than one dog there. It’s certainly not linear and some days are more discouraging than others.>>
Let’s take a different route – dial all the distractions all the way back. Reduce, don’t increase. Instead, install reinforcement procedures. Then I think you will find it much easier to fold in distractions. When distractions are difficult to add – it is not really about the distractions, it is about the reinforcement procedures. So set him up to understand more about the RPs and don’t worry about distractions for now. If we keep working distractions without the RPs in place, then the conditioned response will not improve and then it will continue to be frustrating to you both.
>>hopefully we can trial someday
The more I learn about dogs, the more I realize that competing is not about sport-specific skills or handling distractions… it is all about the clarity reinforcement procedures. I have complete faith that he will get it. In the lead up to the US Open, when I was getting CB ready for his runs (first competition runs, first outdoor trial, first all sorts of things) – I only worked on reinforcement procedures, not sport skills and not distractions 🙂
Catch is a super fun procedure and I agree – he was beginning to brace for it LOL! Good boy!
Yes, you are turning to him and starting to throw before saying the word on some reps. Try to mix in a little praise then ‘catch’ – that will get you to be a little cleaner. And for some dogs, we mix in a ‘ready, set….’ to pump them up but I am not sure he can do this yet – you can see how he does with the praise before the catch. And yes, you can cue a position if you think he will be successful – otherwise, let him offer. I like it when dogs offer in front of the jump because it means they are understanding the process we will use on the start line.He LOVED the whoosh! Wheeeee!
>>At the end you can see me go to pet him and he’s clearly like “no touchy while working” but also can tell the session is over by my affection. Smart boy.
Yes, let’s talk about it – I agree, he does not like the petting. That is not unusual for a lot of dogs who are working. So… don’t do it. Why would we add something that they don’t like to a scenario that we want them to love? I mean, when you are working and focused and concentrating on something, you would be annoyed if I came up and started petting your hair or draped my arm around yur shoulders. Ewwww, right?!?! And then when I approached in that scenario, you’d get a conditioned response of ‘ewwww.’ So – no petting needed unless he asks for it 🙂 And don’t take it personally if he doesn’t ask for it, he is not a whippet or terrier LOL!
Also, I don’t really want him to predict the session being over like that because note what he did: went off and did his own thing, in a work scenario. And that is precisely what you don’t want him to do in a work scenario (predict that he can leave). When he does that in a training scenario, you kinda hate it, yes? So we don’t want to build it in at all, anywhere. This is especially critical for dogs that are still learning how to engage in training.
I know a lot of people out there do ‘all done’ marker stuff but I am not a fan – it disengages the dog, handler disconnects and can also be a marker for a negative punisher (removal of something the dog wants – toys, food, engagement, access to work, etc). Poopy! So…. we can end the session differently, as a team, with engagement and reinforcement to continue to build behavior I want. The dog is always learning. So when you are done, you can have him come off the field with you, playing, eating treats, engaging with you, running back to the toy or bag of treats left outside the area. That also matches what the end of a trial run would be like! And then you can let him go for a run with his toy, or play a little frizzer or root around for some treats in the grass – all of which you remain engaged during even if you are just watching or cheering. You can release him to sniff or potty, or move with him abck to his crate area. The ‘wind down’ procedure after training or a run should still be engaging.Great job here! Let me know what you think about the end of session ideas.
Tracy
I can totally relate! No need to add more cues than needed, and also no need to change something that is already working so well!
Good morning!
>>I can tell you I’m stuck with bring it back only because she will bring it (toy or lotus ball) back but throw it at my feet. She wants a cookie for bringing it back OR she wants me to pick it up and throw it for her again. It’s a piece we have struggled with and it’s making the dumbbell retrieve a bit tricky as well, LOL!!
Any suggestions?A dumbbell retrieve and a lotus ball retrieve can be treated as different behaviors. I personally would tug on the dumbbell with her, so she has a reason to want to put it in your hand (trust me, she will not tug on it in the obedience ring because you can develop a procedure that tells her how long to hold it, when to release, when to tug on it, etc.)
But basically – sit on the floor and do little retrieves – hold you hand out as a target, nice and low, palm up. When she gets the lotus ball to hit your hand as she drops it, click then treat. The hand is a target for the lotus ball. At first you can help her by making the retrieves short and any interaction clickable – then she has to specifically put it in your hand to get the reward.
I have video of this with Nacho *somewhere* but I can’t find it at the moment. But here is something similar –
Voodoo putting the ball in a bowl as the target. You can start with a big bowl as a concept-builder then replace it with your hand.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka6xrtHNNhA
On the video – good job with all of these! a little feedback on the mechanics, keeping them as clean as possible to strengthen the markers:
When you are working the Get it and snacks markers – try to be a little more precise with the verbal marker like get it coming before the hand moves. They were pretty simultaneous here and that will cause her to just watch your hands. Same with the shhhhhhh and also the catch – word then movement will help get them really clear so she doesn’t watch your hand as much.And when you did catch with the toy at the very end – say the catch word before you begin any throwing motion – you can see you turned, lifted your arm then said catch. You can lead out watching her to be sure she is not moving, then say catch then turn and throw (btw, this is the procedure I use to get great stops on contacts even when the dog is highly aroused and I am running – I do this in FEO runs too. In AKC where the reward needs to stay in your hand, you can use a really long toy so you are holding the other end. UKI has not such rules about thrown toys, which is why it is a far better place to train the contacts – you can throw a ball or something back to her as you run by.)
The Bite marker looks good – you can increase the challenge and see if she will move to the toy after the word, before you move the toy 🙂On the toy “get it”, the toy was too high in value so definitely you will want to work on getting that toy back starting in a smaller space. And it was also too high in value as the remote reinforcement toy but also a REALLY good indicator of how much the remote reinforcement procedure needs to be built up! That is the bedrock of trialing. Try to avoid any markers like “hey!” – just simplify the game by starting with lower value rewards and putting the reinforcement up on a chair or table so it is visible but less easy to grab. The ‘hey’ is a punishment marker and will increase frustration – making things easier will increase success and reduce frustration 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
On the decel and turn, your mechanics were not off, necessarily – you might have felt weird because you didn’t really decel: you moved at the same pace then pivoted. So I think the only thing to add here is slowing down more clearly when he is about halfway to you, so he prepares to decelerate. He is doing really well with the stay! If you use a cookie toss instead of a stay, you can send him to a cookie toss and then run a few steps, which sets you up to be able to show a bigger deceleration. Great job keeping your reward nice and low!!!Great job here! He looks awesome!
TracyHi there! This was a really fun session!
This is a great start o getting toy play involved with his training! You made it such a fun game: chase the frizzer a couple of times, then you held him then tossed the friz. Since he does not love coming into you, I think you slipped the holding onto him really nicely into the session: he seemed super happy with it! Question: if you wiggle it around more and let him grab it… will he grab it? Will he pull it out of your hands? If yes – you can add in more of the grabbing and letting him pull it out of your hands.
Are there are other toys he really enjoys putting in his mouth? And, does he like to chase balls? I am planning how we can add in more toy play and keep it fun like you had it here 🙂 Eventually it will be no problem hold in him in close to you and letting him drive ahead to the toy then tugging with him.
Great job!
TracyHi! That fun match opportunity sounds amazing – what a great way to get a baby dog into the trial environment!!! And it sounds like he was pretty perfect – excellent choices on what to ask him to do!
On the wing wrap foundations:
Picking up where you left off, he did a great job here!
I don’t think you need the yes then the bowl marker, I think the dish is fine to mark the behavior and availability/location of reward. He was great with wrapping the gate! And had a distraction on the other side of the baby gate and he was fine with that too LOL! But then it was a little harder when the other dog looked out the window LOL! You can add challenge to the gate by extending it so it is a long wing to go around.
He also did well on the upright and was still great hen you moving it away. That is about as far away as we want him to leave for offering (it will become a cued behavior pretty soon), so we can work on other elements of it:
You can start to move the bowls behind you to begin the fading process for the bowls – still toss the treats into/towards the bowls but they will be less obvious.
I was going to suggest something bigger but you whipped out the blue bucket and he did well. Have you tried any of this with 2 toys? I suggest a quick revisit of the entire progression using 2 toys. It folds in arousal early on and teaches the dogs to find commitment even when there is a toy *rightthere* and possibly moving too!And have you started thinking about what verbals you want to use on your jump wraps? That is a whole ‘nother thing to obsess on 🙂
He was great about generalizing to the tree! I love it! Good boy! I definitely think you can get 2 toys involved – the behavior is getting strong and he is generalizing, so we can move forward into adding the excitement of toys.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! We are winding down and I will look at any remaining posts through December 1.
>>I was wondering how things went at the Open? Were you pleased? Wish I could see you and your kids run sometime. We see bits and pieces in your videos for class, and I can imagine how great you must be on a full, challenging course.
Thanks for asking! I was on the management crew at the Open (I was in charge of making sure all 8 rings of courses got built including several 5:15am course builds eewwwwww!), so it was more of a work trip than a competition for me. I ran 3 of the dogs a little bit on the first 2 days – the two baby dogs were AMAZING and Hot Sauce in particular was one butt-width away from the finals in those two events (I was in her way on one line at the very end of an otherwise brilliant speedstakes, and I didn’t get my sorry butt across the finish line fast enough in Snooker so another dog with the same score but a faster time got into Finals and she was the first to not get into finals. oops! LOL! Contraband made hs debut and he was perfect! I messed him up here and there but it was a great debut. And Voodoo, my experienced dog, struggled with the long layoff after Covid and sharing time with the 23 others (they all ran within a few dogs of each other) so he was blazing fast but both of us had errors 🙂 But it was fun and things ran smoothly on the work side of it for me 🙂
Have a great Thanksgiving!
TracyHi! This might be a better angle for it:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Oc3ESj8odL5y6wf2HYzy-RjnNYBUKpuhGPeuz2s8LpM/edit?usp=sharing
Let me know!
TracyHi! Great job on the videos!!!
First up – the wrap foundations:
>>Also, we just worked on an online class where we put control on a dish and did a collar grab to look at us for permission to go to the dish. The send to the dish was on a verbal. So I think that is why she keeps looking at me when I am not putting the food in the dish right away. So I might have to think on this to see if that will conflict with what we are doing there. It’s R+ control games foundations for bitey sport dogs. The setup is different though and I’m not sitting on the floor.>>
It is possible that looking at you is more valuable than the bowls here, but I don’t think it was the other game causing the issue especially if the setup is different – she probably just needs a session or two of you going faster with the cookie drops – do 2 or 3 short, fast sessions (30 seconds or less) of practically immediate cookie drops so she doesn’t have time to look up at you 🙂 and then on that 3rd session, you can start to delay a tiny bit more. She was starting to get it like at 1:02 and 1:27, so I think she just needed a little longer to get into the rhythm 🙂
You can probably do this all in one evening, taking short breaks between each session 🙂>>Can I use a cone for this? We’re doing cone wraps in our in person class and we’re not progressing very quickly so this might help there.>>
Yes, this totally can be the cone! Start with something less obvious at first, like a skinny upright of some sort, then go to the cone. I have personally found this style of shaping it to be easier for the dogs than the way we used to shape the cone wrapping.
On the hand target video:
She gave you excellent feedback about placement of reinforcement and mechanics 🙂 Your mechanics and placement were building value for the cookie hand, not the target, and she let you know LOL!! When you work on this, don’t let the the target hand move. Leave it out to the side with your elbow locked. Have the cookies ready in the clicker hand so when you click, you can then bring the cookie over to the target hand to build value for that – plop the cookie right on the target. Moving her away from the target hand by tossing the cookies off to the side was not building value because the movement of the cookie hand and the delay in the toss and the placement was what was getting the value (as you can see because she would always return to look at your cookie hand, and not at the target And then when you didn’t reward, did you see her go back to where the cookie toss was? She is SMART!). So – no reset loop here for now! Just build value on the spot for the target by marking and putting the cookie right on the target (you can turn the wrist of your target hand up so the cookie lands on the target on your flat palm. When she has value, we can reset her more but for now, build value in position). And if she is stuck, don’t pull the target hand away because it is a negative punisher every time you remove it – you could see she was getting frustrated when she jumped up! Just leave it out there and look at it, maybe eve wiggle it to help 🙂 But I think the change in mechanics and placement will help a lot too.
For the toy play, you can get her chasing the toy a bit more as well to have her come back to toy focus after all the cookies. Having Mazi in the room was a little too distracting for the toy play in this session, so you can do a couple of sessions without Mazi where you stand up, run around, drag the toy, get her chasing you 🙂Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
He was rocking and rolling right at the start here, which caught you a little off guard with the mechanics! Have your cookies and everything totally ready before you put the bowls down so you are clean and quick with the rewards – it took you about 5 seconds to get sorted out and that is a long time in puppy time LOL!
This was a great session, he appears to have gotten the back & forth rhythm – yes, you can break it off sooner because it this behavior is so repetitive. You can do a little toy play after every 5 or 6 treats then go back to the back and forth. Or, you can bring the cone in or use a skinny upright. He looked ready for it here, I think you can do it on your next session – warm up with the bowls like this for a couple of treats then as soon as you see he has the rhythm – get the upright in (send him away to get a cookie using a ‘get it’ and have it nearby so it is easy to put in while Risk is getting the tossed cookie and get right back into the flow).Great job here! I am looking forward to seeing him do this with the cone!
TracyHi!
>>I think you should frame this response.
Ha! I am actually cranky at myself because I thought it all the way through on the long drive home last night but didn’t type it until this morning – and it was not as clear as what I had in my head last night.
I love the question because it made me think about exactly why it was different and be able to outline it.
And also from the Zoom last week when you asked if I trained the go-to-bowl and the dead toy differently (I think that was the question) with different markers and I answered yes. I think I left out the most important reason why: because they are two entirely different behaviors (decelerate to eat from bowl versus grab and retrieve), different functions, different mechanics for the dog to the best latency comes with treating them as 2 distinct behaviors.
>> I am in a reinforcement vortex right now in which all I read and think about is reinforcement, and I “know” less with every second that passes.
I feel that pain 10000% and I am currently in the “the dogs will lead the way” mode and also – we don’t have to be perfect, because dogs also live in that reinforcement vortex and only think about reinforcement. So, they have it all sorted out and as long as we are as clear as we can be, they will be super happy 🙂
>>It is sometimes hard to put a fork in it, so to speak, and just train my puppy, knowing full well that I’m going to break him and then unbreak him.
Ah yes, puppy training paralysis. You have full on permission to be sloppy in some cases and make mistakes as long as the puppy gets a wicked high rate of reinforcement. You know that ‘hand on pocket’ being the out cue for Hot Sauce? Yep, I screwed that one up! But I go with it and sometimes I totally put my hand on my pocket as the out cue LOL!!!! She is happy and successful and still gets a cookie when I do the hand on pocket cue LOL!
>> I could totally relate, as Wingman has a stellar recall on a hand-going-in-pocket cue. LOL.
I don’t think you ever my met Rat Terrier, Rebound – he passed away a couple of years ago at age 16. I was able to shape entire behaviors just by touching my pocket as a marker, like a clicker. Ha! Oops!!!
>>For the “coming in hot” part of the stationary toy reward, I think I’m going to incorporate this into the recall practice in fenced areas that we do every day. Moonshot is accustomed to getting a cookie from my stationary hand at my side when he comes in hot on a recall, sometimes sliding into a sit and sometimes getting the treat immediately. I’ll start using my “yum yum” verbal here to tell him when he can have the cookie.>>
I like it!!!
>And I’ll start having the toy at my side and saying “bite.” I think he will get this quickly, because it’s a small tweak of a game he already loves. Video soon, I hope!>
Perfect! Dogs love to come in hot to toys!
Have fun, and feel free to just jump in, mess up, have a laugh, edit video with a glass of wine 🙂
THello and welcome! 1 year old is a great age! Some of this might be stuff she has experience with, but it is a different process than most puppy stuff so it should work well with things she already knows.
>> these types of exercises are expensive for me – Dellin does not particularly like food, so it’s not hugely reinforcing.>>
This is good to know, and so I think our #1 priority at this point is to increase food value. It is quite doable! We are doing it in our Reward class, so I will pop that video into this class too – several folks are struggling with food value (BC owners, shocking! LOL!) so we can all work on it.
3 of my dogs came to me with no real food value and now they are all piggies, so we can build it up.
And a general suggestion for any/all food use in training at this point:
don’t think of the cookies as a reinforcement, think of eating the cookie as a behavior. So, with the foot touch to the thing: yes you can click then give her a cookie (I personally would not click if the cookie is not very reinforcing) but then after she swallows the cookie, play tug. Do this on a 1:1:1 ratio – foot touch, cookie, tug. She is going to be loving cookies VERY quickly. The tug is the reward for now, the touch and the cookie are behaviors… but both with take on the value of the touch and then the cookie will become a valuable reinforcement.So on the foot touch prop – she had some good touches and some where she was near it but not touching it, so I am not sure if she knew it was a foot hit behavior or a back & forth behavior. And, since she is not a foodie yet, try this:
mark the foot hit with a yes
deliver a cookie with her standing on the thing
then throw a tug toy (or ask her to tug with you, whichever she likes)
then: lather, rinse, repeat until she is demanding her cookies 🙂And same thing with the hand target – we can incorporate toys to build the food value:
She was so dainty wih the target LOL!!! A suggestion about the mechanics of delivering the cookie- leave the hand with the target stationary and extended away from your body, locking your elbow. And then the cookie hand can bring the cookie over to the hand target and reward right there (no ned to click for now). By moving the target away and rewarding from the other side, you can see she is orienting herself to the cookies and not to the target.
Then after a cookie delivery: party time with the toy! Do it on the same 1:1:1 ratio that I suggested above. Yes, you will get fewer reps but they will all be higher quality with the by-product of raising the value of food. And when food is high value? EVERYTHING is much easier 🙂>>Can you do the weekly games in any order? I assume so, but thought I’d double check.>>
Yes! And mixing up the cookie/shaping games with the running games would be ideal to keep things fun 🙂
Great start here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>One thing that you mentioned in the zoom call is that my ready to work protocol may be too boring
Continued engagement is something we still continue to struggle with. He has gotten much better but I still have instances where he will go off on his own and sniff or check out. I suspect continued behavior loops will help with this but was looking for ideas on assessing whether he can work.>>That is a massive complicated topic but basically it comes back to the Yerkes Dodson Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerkes%E2%80%93Dodson_law). I think the ready to work procedure that you described simply puts him on the wrong part of the Y-D bell curve. Each dog needs a different way to mentally warm up, so trying different behaviors to see where it puts him, and in different environments, is the best way to go with it 🙂 In order to do the relatively complex task of agility, he has to be relatively high – and it sounds like the stuff you are doing lowers his arousal so he is on the left side slope of the bell curve, and we need him at the top of it. Experimenting with different things and tracking what works is the only way to figure it out 🙂
>>This weekend we had a session in Carrie’s yard. Three other dogs and Roulez in standing heat. While this may have been too much to ask, prior to starting sequencing, I had him on leash heeling and walking with me. 100 % engagement, great eye contact, taking food well, and whining with excitement. He was responding to commands without hesitation. As soon as I took the leash of, immediate disengagement and sniffing (pee licking too).>>
I would say it is being on leash is a less complex task so he didn’t need to be that aroused and probably has a stronger reinforxement history. Coming off leash in that context is predictive of more complex tasks coming, so he was showing you a stress-based conditioned response. Heeling and walking, in that context, did not get him ready for the more complex tasks.
>>I was able to get more focused sessions once Roulez and the other dogs left the yard but don’t really know where to begin when faced with a situation like this. Ultimately this left me super frustrated in the moment and after that one session fighting for his attention, I put him up until everyone left.>>
It was better to put him up – I would want to first know if he could handle being around other dogs working before I added in a bitch in standing heat. Did you ask him to play frisbee with the other dogs moved further away?
>>Once everyone left, we swam first, played with strike, tugging on the frizz, retrieving the frizz and adding agility in between. I was happy with his action and attention at that point.>>
It was probably easier because the task was less complex (doing things without distractions) and you had more exciting behaviors going. You will need to work on adding complexity very gradually while continuing to play with what gets him high enough in arousal. I think the much of the dog sport world has moved waaayyyyy tooooo much to towards calming behaviors which is surprising to me because the science suggests that is really doesn’t work like that.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
