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Hi!
He seemed pretty pumped up with the collar holding and he was fast AND accurate, which is good!One thing about the collar holding: start the verbal while you are holding the collar THEN let go and both of you move while you keep saying the verbal. You were saying it and letting go all in one motion, but not really moving. So definitely add your motion in now, both from the collar holding and from the start wing – keep moving forward at a fast walk or jog until he makes a decision based on your verbal – then you can throw. Standing still makes it too easy LOL!!! So start nice and close to the wrap wing, and keep moving the whole time as you cue left, right or go go go 🙂 He is ready for that challenge 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> This makes sense, but his RoR I think was a little better. I cut out the tugging back to set up and getting cookies for releasing his toy at the start from video😊.
Leave all that in so we can get a proper count 🙂 The more I have counted up RoR lately, the more I think that it explains sooooo much!
>>> I really have to watch my turning around and not staying connected with him when he has chased his ball down. Even that turn away is demotivating for him even though I go to play tug.
Yes – the reinforcement and punishment process with dogs is more complex than, say, with chickens LOL!!! I mean a chicken would not care if you turned away while they were pecking their feed LOL! But the withdrawal of interaction even with the ball in play might NOT be a positive reinforcement at all, or a very mild one. And if he gets the toy and then the toy is taken back very quickly – that can also diminish the value of the positive reinforcement.
Same with when he is wrong – turning your back to head to the reset spot, even if you are thinking about the next rep, becomes a powerful negative punishment to a lot of dogs and that can deflate the whole session even if the RoR is relatively high. So, I call the dogs back happily after and error, and do the reset cookie very quickly, then hold their collar (maybe another reset cookie if I really have to think hard about the next rep).
>>I just need to forget about what just happened and run to him and play with him instead of trying to figure out what I just did wrong in the moment.>>
Yes! Make interaction a big part of the reinforcement process because it is likely that it is an important element to him.
>>>I should go back to walking etc? And maybe run out of the turn and throw the toy even if I’m walking to the wing?
Yes – the speed going towards the wing can be slower and steadier than the speed after he responds – part of the reinforcement process is getting you to run and throw the ball, so your running when he is correct is probably quite valuable to him.
>>I think my running motion kept him going straight, and he wasn’t paying attention to my body language on the turn?
Quite possibly. And also, be sure that your verbals sound very different, not just in terms of the actual word but the style of delivery: GO can be loud and long, and the wrap verbals should be practically whispered.
Also, I am a big fan of holding the collar, starting the verbal, THEN letting go – it is that new cue – old cue thing, plus it gives him a moment to process before motion is added. That can really increase the success rate!
>>It also doesn’t help that I was working on go and distance and sends to tunnels and taking jumps straight on his line for the ASCA trial this weekend yesterday.>>
That might have shifted the balance for sure! When you know you have worked to put a lot of value on one skill, add in a balance rep or two in that session and then warm up the turn session with some easy reminder reps.
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
These videos are why I ask people to leave the bloopers in and not just submit perfection LOL!!! I think some things that happened here will be VERY helpful!!!!
First, great job with the handling (or, with the NOT handling haha!) That really allows us to sort out what she is processing and what she needs help with. Yes, it will be easier to get the go versus wrap versus soft turns when you DO handle, but this was a cool session to see.
In a nutshell:
She is not necessarily processing the actual word. She is processing the volume, pitch, speed of word, and rhythm. And that is fine, because I am pretty sure that is a huge piece of how humans process language too.So with the wraps, looking at when she was struggling with the Go versus the Dig. She was pretty perfect when there was decel involved or you were walking, so I am skipping ahead to the reps where you were running like you would need to do on course:
You were yelling them both (volume), same rhythm, same pitch. They sounded very much the same. So, with all the things she has to process in that moment, she was guessing that loud and in that rhythm (a bit extended) means Go. Good guess!
But when you did check on the other side, you were making more of an effort to be quieter and the rhythm is different when we are quieter (or possibly it is just harder to yell check?) and she was MUCH better with wrapping versus go while you were running.The same thing happened on the soft turns too. For example, at first your left and go cues were both shouted and sounded the same in volume, rhythm, pitch, etc. But then as the session went on, you started changing that and left started sounding different (same with the right verbal) so she was able to differentiate even with a lot of motion.
So what does that mean? That it is not just the word – you need to consider volume, rhythm, etc too. It is not that hard (I have obsessed on how to make it easy haha!)
Keep GO that big loud long verbal – very effective 🙂
For the wrap verbals, focus on the consonant and first part of the sound like ‘dididi’ and ‘chchch’ – it is easy to do while running, pushes the tongue forward in the mouth (to right behind your front teeth) and and the noise is produced a bit further back in your throat. If you think of making those sounds rapid-fire and almost whispering, like you are telling a secret, they will sound wildly different – easy for you to do while running and easy for her to process.For the soft turns, they belong in the middle of the volume dial – focus on the vowels in the middle of the word and draw them out. Lehhhhhft and riiiiight. That will quiet that and they will sound different enough from the wrap and go cues that they will be easy to process (I say my soft turn verbals as questions ‘lehhhhhft?’ To prevent me from yelling hahaha!
Once we make these final differences, I think it will be smooth sailing!!! It takes a little practice to NOT yell all the things, then it will feel really easy and natural!
Let me know what you think 🙂
TracyHi!
Thanks for posting this! When a dog starts to opt out of a training session, I starting tabulating the rate of reinforcement here. He was at 70% (18 positive reinforcements, one of which was a cookie) versus 8 negative punishments. 70% is too low, which would explain why he was calling an Uber towards the end LOL!! And I didn’t tabulate the line up behavior in that – rate of reinforcement looks at all behaviors in a session, not just the skill we want to train, and he didn’t get any line up reinforcement so it is possible the entire session was lower than 70% RoR.The main goal is to work all training sessions at a really high rate of reinforcement, 90% or higher – and since that includes all behaviors cued or offered, I have a couple of ideas for you:
– you can pump up your overall rate of reinforcement (I call it the umbrella rate because it covers the entire session) but reinforcing line ups and also with reset cookies. The reset cookies happen after correct AND incorrect responses. So on the incorrect responses, you can just call him back, use a cookie to line him up, give him the cookie, then try again. This will not reinforce the incorrect responses. The reset cookies keep him at a high RoR while we sort out the skill-specific stuff, and also produce a positive CER to just being in the working environment in general. The hard part about the reset cookies is probably getting them into his mouth if he is wearing his magic hood LOL! But you can slip a cookie in the side, right? Or, the reset can be tugging on a quick ball grab or disc bite if cookies are hard to manage.
– keep a count in your head of success versus failure on the skill. You started off in a deficit when he had a few errors early in the session, but then you evened it out so he was getting a lot of reinforcement – and then yes, quit there 🙂
Those 2 things will help keep him pumped up for the entire session, and that way you can teach him t he skills without losing his motivation.
Let me know if that makes sense! I think looking at the umbrella rate of reinforcement will change things for sure 🙂
Tracy
Hi! She did really well here, reading the differences between the cues really well!
>.Also, what do I do on the go sequence when she comes to me rather than take the jump? I just reset her.
That was the right thing to do – laugh, reset, try again. she was looking at you there. You were not as connected and ran and released at the same time, so she passed the jump.
The next rep had connection, motion THEN the release and she was great! And same with the rest. The further you threw the toy, the better the rep went in terms of her jumping in extension then being able to decelerate to get the toy. Do you have a bigger toy like a hollee roller so she can just scoop it up as she runs rather than have to stop to grab it? or a giant Jolly Ball?
For the collection – yes, she is not at all sure about what to do with her hind end. Stopping her with food on the takeoff side got her to use her front end differently, bit not her hind. Don’t add the verbal yet – instead, try being sideways to the jump (your hip is next to the wing so you are perpendicular and not facing forward, your belly is parallel to the bar). and let her see the full wing, so you are more at the edge.
She is also old enough the see set point jumping games, for hind end use in front of the bar. Did you ever do those with Gemma? There are a couple of variations and they can help her push from her rear rather than think as much about her front. She know that the decels were NOT extensions, but she didn’t quite know how to get her rear set up for the turning.
Nice work here! Let me know about the set points, I can send some ideas if you haven’t done those before 🙂
TracyAh! I thought he might have been cookie hunting – but also shows a conditioned response to look at your hands. We can change that by shifting the reinforcement consistently out of your hands.
Hi!
Good session here! He was really successful! And he was also good about not jumping or barking at you, we will keep going with this for now!
As you continue to build on these, think of his head turn as your permission to throw the reward. So as he is approaching the wing or jump, if he turns his head, the body will follow. Look at :21 versus :25, for example: great head turn at :21, so he got the turn perfectly. At :25, he never turned his head and took the distraction jump, but you threw the toy. He wasn’t sad about that LOL but you can watch his head more to be sure you are rewarding the correct response.
And be sure to use your wrap verbal on the start wing and not th eleft or right –
it might be weird youtube sound but you were saying left for the wrap of the start wing and left for the left wing, but they are two different behaviors.And yes, you kept moving further and further over onto his line for the rights HA! He was trying to jump over your leg on a couple of the reps LOL! Too funny. It should be easier on a jump, where you can line the start wing up with the exit wing of the turn you want.
One big thing that I think will help build his understanding even more:
You need some toy marker words not just good or yay 🙂 I am going to bug/beg/bribe you to add them consistently, whatever it takes – it will change things pretty dramatically! The markers let the dogs know both that they are correct and where to look – and consistently pairing the specific reward marker with the behavior really helps solidify the behavior and response to the verbals: “when mom says this word, I look there for reward”. The general praise words and clicks don’t give enough info in precision moments like this. It takes a bit of planning and practice to get the markers going consistently, but it will speed the training a lot!
If he knows where to look, he is going to process verbals better look at you a lot less 🙂 So for these, don’t praise – just say ‘get it’ then throw (and praise afterwards). For wraps, use a toy-in-hand marker instead of praise.>>Today I will go to the next step and add a jump if you are good with that.
Yes, sounds good! His mechanics on the wing here were good! Before adding the full jump, change the angle of the wing so it is parallel to the distraction jump and do a quick warm up on that. It is a different picture (it was perpendicular to the distraction jump here) so we want to show him. If he is fine with that, add the jump. And plan your ‘get it’ markers so you can get him pairing the verbal with the placement of reinforcement to continue to solid his responses 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I thought he was a lot better about NOT jumping at your hands here… mainly because you were not using your hands to do a swooshy send 🙂 So – keep NOT using your hands for now. A couple of ideas on this setup:At the beginning, you were having him approach the wing from the wrong side here – have him on the outside of you like you did after :25 so he is wrapping towards the distraction jump, not away from it. When he is approaching it from the inside here, he sees both on his line it is a little unclear about which one you want which casued the error on the first rep.
You did drop the toy back to him on a couple of them but then reverted back to the toy near you or from your hand. Try to be super consistent with the toy landing right near the edge of the wrap wing (and nowhere near you) with the markers for get it – this is also going to help, because when you did drop it, it looks like he was not really getting the toy but was looking at your hands instead (maybe for a treat, or just conditioned to look at your hands – the video cut there so I didn’t see what happened next: cliffhanger LOL!! Your running might be really stimulating, so you might need to move more slowly as he gets the hang of ignoring your speed to execute criteria and get the reinforcement. Being able to do something like that while you run fast, versus just running fast will help with turning too!
Basically, it is Operation Stark Look At Your Lines And Not At Mom’s Hands!
>.also didn’t always do a FC but hopefully things look okay. If so, I guess today we move on to a jump?
I thought his mechanics here were really good and the actual handling is not really important, so you can move to a jump but definitely obsess on no hand-swooshing and placement of reinforcement.
Nice work here! Let me know how he does on the jump!
TracyHi!
The background noises were hilarious! I love it! They were hungry LOL>> left this whole session unedited so you can see the good, bad and ugly
And nothing bad or ugly here at all! Thank you for posting the full session, it really helps to figure her out! It was a really good session, and her responses here are why we train this game 🙂 Bear in mind that handling will help the wraps when you are on a real course, but for now I am glad we are challenging her brain. It was an interesting session because we elicited a really common behavior: she was making an EXCELLENT collection on the wrap… but not finishing the wrap. A-ha!
I think the soft turns to the left and to the right looked really strong throughout the session – and the GO lines were fabulous! She did the GO reps with very little physical help, she was very happy to Go Go Go!
Based on how well she did the Go and the soft turns, I am betting her value for the jumps and running is higher than her value for NOT taking the jump and driving back to you and stopping. She was doing a GREAT job on the takeoff side, I really liked her collection on the takeoff even when she didn’t finish the wrap on most of the reps, good girl!
And so with taking the distraction jump instead of finishing the wrap is probably easier and higher value, so now we play with making finishing the wrap higher value too.
A couple of ideas for you:
– make a bigger deal of the reinforcement when she gets the wrap correct – as soon as she is definitely on her way back to you and not taking the distraction jump, you can turn and run and throw the toy and then tug tug tug tug 🙂 I think being a bit wilder when rewarding will help her want to wrap more. These rewards were a bit too calm, and you took the toy back for the next rep pretty quickly. So I think having a BIG party will really help her increase value for the wraps – especially if that value includes motion. Watching the full session here, she seems to be a girl who likes to be moving and doing things! So the wrap rewards were stopping things a bit, which might make the wraps less reinforcing than the sort turns or go rewards, which both involve staying in motion, chasing the toy, etc.– the other thing you can do is click the collection she is making that is great, the turn and move away, presenting the reinforcement – that will also clarify what we like and help her drive back and ignore the distraction jumps. An example of a great collection was on the rep that started at 2:19 and 2:24 (even though she didn’t finish the turn, we can mark the collection and have a party :)) 3:28 was a good example on the collection turning to her right. I suggest clicking (rather than saying ‘yes’ or something) because it is both incredibly precise and also because it is more likely to draw her back to you for the reward, setting up success 🙂
She had a couple of random errors in the session – no worries on the soft turns when she didn’t take the jump, that was a big of a disorganized moment at the start of the send, so be sure to line her up before you cue her so she knows which jump you are moving towards. And there was one rep at 3:18 where she wrapped – but wrapped away from you, because you were on her line a little bit. Eventually she will be able to push you out of the way and wrap the correct direction but for now I was glad she knew it was a wrap and not a go or soft turn!
>>In this session I tried to increase difficulty then, near the end, decrease difficulty since the combo was so challenging.>>
It was a really strong session, and decreasing the difficulty towards the end helped keep the overall rate of success nice and high. Great job here – let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I like having a lotus ball and treat hugger in the training bag – I don’t use them much but they are SO helpful when I need to throw food!Good short session here! She was really strong when you were walking and letting her drive ahead. Be careful of transitioning from walking directly to a lot of motion:
:13 – walking!
:18 – running! LOL!
It was too big of a change in variables so she had 2 misses. Think of it more as walking then faster walking, and I bet she has more success. Plus, each time you change a variable, delay the reinforcement a heartbeat so you don’t throw it for a miss LOL! Watching her work, I think you can wait for her to turn her head to the correct direction before throwing – that is wat she did on all of the correct reps. An on the misses, she never turned her head to the turn. An oops reinforcement is not the end of the world but it can be confusing if you tell her she is right, throw it, then tell her she is wrong).
And try not to let her brother help shape her line! He was totally in the way on the last rep, so she shaped her line – but she was thinking more about avoiding a collision (good girl) than the mechanics of the turn.Nice work here! I think the main tweak is to add motion more gradually and see how she does – waiting for her to turn her head before throwing the reward.
TracyHi!
> Who would have ever thought this would be so hard.
Ha! My evil master plan says it looks easy but actually is pretty hard for dogs of all ages – I filmed some demos for upcoming games with my almost 9 year old dog and he had some juicy mistakes LOL!!
Really nice session here! I like that you were repeating the left & right cues, rather than saying them once. And great job NOT handling LOL! Just moving forward an he was differentiating on the verbals. It will be so much easier when you do add the handling back to it and when you have 20 feet between obstacles.
For the Go reps – this is harder! is the cue Go or Go On? There is some alternation LOL!!! But the main thing is to break it down by helping him, being a bit more parallel to him and not as behind him – I think the Go is a little harder than the left or right. And you can throw sooner on the Go reps – as soon as you see him looking straight over jump 1, throw the reward with a get it verbal so he doesn’t second guess jump 2 or look back at you.
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
> I really like the idea of holding the collar with saying the verbal to get them used to listening for a verbal!
He did well here! He was stimulated but also correct and that is what we are going for.
>>Guinness’s commitment to the wing will be instantaneous with release of his collar.
>> I don’t think what I am doing is making any difference, including the verbal. Guinness is focused on the wing and will go there regardless of what I say or do or at what speed. There’s no alternative for him, so I think he’s there regardless of position, movement or verbal.>>Yes – that is why we start like that, to develop the behavior and the criteria, and name it with the verbal. In other words: we are really certain we are going to get the behavior, so we can name it by adding the cue before it. And getting it and naming it without needing handling help? Perfect! LOL!
>> So it will be difficult to walk, jog, run (he won’t notice the difference). Unless I start 20+’ back where he might hesitate without my forward motion.
He was quite perfect on the first video, up close. He was wider on the 2nd video when you started further back, turning to his right. So we need to keep starting him at the distance of the 2nd video or further away (20 feet is fine) – but add motion. Hold his collar, start the verbal, and when you let go, keep saying the verbal and walk forward. Don’t try to handle – he needs to create the turn. As soon as he does, then you can take off andgive him the toy.
If he is happy with that, you can put the wing in front of a jump (low bar, the jump maybe 8 feet away) and start really close again, just like you did on the first video here. The distraction jump makes it really hard for him to process the verbals, so we don’t need to challenge him with a lot of motion until he is good with you walking.>>And I really do suck at verbals. I have a hard time getting them out of my mouth on course. Probably why my dogs ignore my verbals! Guess I just need practice!>>
We will do a lot of practicing games and then it will feel much easier 🙂
Great job here!! Let me know if the ideas for the next steps make sense.
TracyHi!
>> My husband would say I have the same problem
Ha! Same here 🙂 And also, I have trouble processing his verbals when I am focused on something else, so he has to repeat his verbals LOL!!!!
Really nice session here – SO MUCH good work! The right wrap collection at the beginning was really nice. The MM was out there… but he ignored it nicely.
He did indeed have trouble with the left wraps – maybe the excitement of the Go reps to the MM made it too hard to ignore it because the MM was ‘in play’. Maybe he didn’t want to wrap towards the pressure of the wall? Maybe fatigue or change of arousal or tugging was less reinforcing than the potential of the MM? I am guessing it is mainly because the MM was in play and that change his arousal state: it is EASY to run straight to the MM, it is much much harder to ignore it after a few rewards from it.
You did a great job working through it on the wing, that was a clever way to reset the wrap and set him up for success. Another idea for the MM distraction: since that is the most exciting reinforcement in this session, you an use it for the wraps. What I mean by that is – have him wrap and when he comes back to you… click the MM and send him to it. That way the MM is in play the whole time… but he really has to process which verbal it is. Brain-exploder! LOL!
Only one small tweak for this setup – the bars were a little too high for the Go with such a short distance between the jump (he had trouble jumping it smoothly) so keep the bars lower when you have the Go involved.
>>or maybe this is him saying it would be helpful if you had different words?
I do like to have 2 different words, but I don’t think that was the issue – I think the MM was a big distraction after he did a few reps to it. But you worked through it really well and he was able to figure it out – then by the end he nailed the GO and was also able to end on strong alternating Go and wrap reps. Very cool!
Great job! You can definitely add in the week 2 games. And have a great time at the seminar!!!!
Tracy
Hi!
Good session here! I think the bell curve is working well! And her stays are looking good too!Yes, I think she definitely found the right turns with motion easier. On the left turns, though, you did go from a quiet walk to an arm-pumping fast job LOL! It might have been a bit too much of a leap in motion, especially after all the Go reps.
So there are 2 options for the left turns to solidify them as you add motion – you can add motion more gradually, just walking faster or jogging but keeping arms quiet. Or, to add more speed, for the left turns do the wing alone and not the full jump with you moving more and more. I think for the right turns, you can keep going with what you did here.
>>Also I felt like she may have been curling in too much on those go’s.
I think she was good with the Go reps! She was a little closer to the side of the bar you were on (that is pretty normal), but she was straight, looking ahead and in extension.
>> I’m trying not to mark the mistakes but oooh is out of my mouth before I realize it! At least I’m recognizing that. That’s the first step right😂😂😜?
Ha! Yes! As long as you give her a quick reset cookie, I think she will be happy with it LOL!
Great job 🙂 Let me know what you think!
Tracy
