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Good morning!
>> Question: The reverse spin looks very similar to the throw-back. What is the difference and is there a general rule when to use one vs the other? Dora seemed to read the spin pretty well and it was easier for me than the throwback. It seems like the throwback uses more decel?
The spin and the throwback are very similar. The term ‘reverse spin’ was popularized by OneMind Dogs, I believe so going with their definition: you would be using the dog side arm across your body as big part of the cue. The more updated definition is that the spin is a front cross-blind cross cue combo designed for better collection that a post turn, and used in cases where the spin will rotate the handler’s feet to the new direction sooner than a post turn or send.
So with that in mind, if we freeze the video or get a photo good timing on a throwback and a spin at the dog’s commitment point… they will very much the same because the handler will be on the ‘new’ arm (finished with the FC element) before the dog takes off. The added deceling you feel with the throwback is probably the earlier rotation, and that is fine because the throwbacks are used for super tight turns.
Looking at the timing, all of the moves (the wrap FC, the spin, and the throwback) begin with the transition from fast forward into slow forward (decel) then into the rotation – except on lead outs when you are standing still in position.
On the video – She was reading the lines really nicely! We can work in more of the transitions so you can get collection before takeoff and tighter turns.
Looking at the end of the video first: your last rep into the FC had the best timing and cues: you decelerated as soon as her first foot hit the ground after jump 1, and rotated before she was past you: gorgeous turn!!! Great connection!
With the other reps of spins and FCs, you were doing the fast forward (acceleration) element then the rotation – so she committed and found the line, but didn’t collect before takeoff as the rotation was happening just before takeoff or while she was in the air. So add back the deceleration when she lands from 1, which makes the earlier rotation easier 🙂 And for the spins, you don’t need to get to the BC element of it before takeoff, just work the FC element as if you are doing a FC. Then when she is collecting for takeoff or in the air, you can do the BC element. The FC-BC element are relatively distinct so you don’t ending rushing – when we rush the spin, we end up spinning in place more than moving forward to the next line.
Let me know if that makes sense or if I need more coffee haha! Great job here!
TracyHi! I love the view from your agility field – so gorgeous!!!
Also gorgeous – your blind crossed on the jump after the tunnel every.single.time. Stunning!>> At first, I just could not get her to turn left. She kept going to the back side of the left wing! >>
I didn’t see any of that here, but my guess is that you pushed into her line too soon, so she read it like a backside cue. More below on setting the line from 4 to show the front of 5 on the RC.
I watched the video in slow motion to sort out why she was having FC versus RC trouble, and I think that even though the verbals were good, the physical cues look the same.
For example, she got the RC at :06 and 1:36… but that cue looked identical to 1:01 (for example) when you wanted the wrap to the right. And on the sends like at :33, your feet were pointing to the RC line so she RC’d. So the way the lines were set, they looked really similar except for the rep at 1:29 where you did a good transition into the right turn wrap and she had no questions.
We can make the cues look dramatically different so she will have an easier time. The right wraps should like like 1:29 where you accelerate forward facing the wrap wing, then decel, then rotate. On the reps where you wanted the wraps but didn’t get it, you accelerated but then rotated and faced the RC wing. That decel facing the wrap wing, even for a step, makes a big difference.
To get the RCs different, we can set the RC line a lot sooner: rather than do the blind then run forward, you can do the BC 3-4 and drive to the wing of 4 and decelerate to face the center of the bar at 5. Then as she catches up to you, accelerate towards the center of the bar and when she passes you: cut in behind her to seal the deal of the RC. That should look very different positionally and in terms of feet & line than the wrap cues, so it should answer all of her questions 🙂 Let me know if that makes sense!
Nice work!
TracyHi!
Really strong session here – these are hard handling moves for the dog because small-ish hand cues have to basically override motion and wing value, and he did great!
Yo had excellent use of the magic cookie hand to get him to come to the threadle side of the wing!!!When gettin the left turns underway for these, move your hand cues a bit more slowly to get him started. Left turns are harder for him, especially when he doesn’t expect the cue. He doesn’t seem to need you to slow down on the right turns though – easy peasy!
One suggestion that will help tighten the lines into the lap and tandem turns: When starting from the tunnel, call him before he enters so he comes out looking for you and not the wing. Without the turn cue on the tunnel, he was locking onto the wing (correctly) so it took him a moment to see the hand cue.
1:30 was hilarious – you said get it not tunnel so he did not go in the tunnel. BRILLIANT BOY!
There was an oopsie moment at 1:41 – I think he was going really fast and you didn’t get to position to show the cue in time. As he exited, he saw you moving towards the wing so he thought you wanted the wing, then it was hard t o get the lap turn set up. No worries – great timing next rep and he turned beautifully even to the harder direction. You definitely got there sooner!
On the last rep – 2 tandems – adding moving forward was you cue them, so he gets used to seeing these in motion (because you will want to be moving with the tandems. For now, start by just walking so he can isolate the hand cue, but I am sure you will be able to add more speed very quickly.
Great job here!!!
Hi!
Hope you are having a great weekend!Min’s walk through looked great! You were moving pretty fast, and it turns out it was correct because she, too, was moving pretty fast LOL!! I don’t think you rushed the 3-4 FC. The main thing that was interesting was the 2 thigh taps you did – after the 3-4 FC and after the BC 5-6. When you ran it, you didn’t think tap 3-4 but you did 5-6. I know some folks use it as a bypass tool, but I don’t think you needed it here. Your lines were really good so she never looked off course. In fact, I think you can be a little closer to the 3-4 and 5-6 lines to get less yardage in there – as long as you FC 3-4 or BC 5-6 right on the dog’s path then run straight to the exit wing of of the next jump she should stay on her line and not push to the backside of 4 on the 3-4 line or flick away back to 4 on the 5-6 line – that can take out a stride or two which will be super fast!
The wrap on 6 was gorgeous!!!!Kaladin‘ s walk through was also good, and also compelling! He just had t join you 🙂 I liked the line you ran 3-4 in the walk and you did the tap 5-6 with him too.
On the run: I think you stepped into his line on the way to 3 a little bit as part of a rotation that was too early – so for him, yes, the 3-4 line was a little rushed. Your rotation for Min was one step later which is why she had a great line to 3. The rest looked good! I am not sure he needed the tap 5-6 either – he looked at you instead of the line. I think with him, you can also run the super tight lines 3-4 and 5-6, and as long as you move forward, I bet they don’t push away from you at all and they stay on perfect lines 🙂 His wrap at 6 also looked lovely!Let me know what you think! Great job here! And have a blast with Monica, I hear she is great!
Tracy
Hi!
I totally support the idea of resting dogs, which is why it is great for us humans to have several dogs in training 🙂 And it sounds like Stacie’s seminar was fun!!!!Both dogs did well here on these challenges!!
For Haydn:
On that first rep, you turned your shoulders and feet away too soon – but I don’t think that is why he missed the first jump 🙂 That jump is miles away for a little dude! And since ETS dogs seem to struggle with the visual processing of jumps versus handler position, the distance skills are harder. So because of his short height and the ETS, you can change the position of the jump after the tunnel: start it close (a couple of feet away) then gradually get it further and further away, inching it out to where it was here as he gets more and more confident. You can also throw the rewards sooner. As soon as he looks at the jump, throw them to landing side (rather than waiting til he takes the jump) so that the decision to move towards it is affirmed by a cookie landing on the line 🙂 We basically need to build up so much confidence that he totally trusts the verbal and does not need to know anything about handler position, so he can focus on the jump.Send 2:
He totally nailed it all here because he was confident about where the jump was. Yay! Once he was on the line to the jump after the tunnel, he easily found th next jump. On the line back to the tunnel, it was a new picture so you can build it up the way I suggested above, with the distance jump starting much closer then gradually moving back out. I think the ETS makes placing the reward less helpful (harder to see for ETS dogs) so while he did eventually find it, I think locking onto the jump itself will be the better way to build the value and commitment.Arram’s turn went really well! I liked the way you trained this with the wing nice and close, then gradually further away. This is what I have in mind for Haydn – I was thinking on a jump for Haydn, but a wing would work too! My only suggestion is to use a ‘get it’ cue for the toy, as the “yes” marker draws his focus back to you. If you use ‘get it’ after the go go go, it will strengthen the go because he will be conditioned to look forward for the reward (not back at you) – which will eventually help to add more jumps in on the Go lines 🙂
Moving the wing back to the jump with the bar was a bit hard for him in this first session, but he was able to sort it out and it will be easier in coming sessions for sure. Yay!
>> Oh, and if you are still taking requests for course challenges – bypass tunnels at distance (run the line to the off side tunnel).>>
Always taking requests! Do you mean tunnel threadles? Got any maps you can message or email to me for inspiration?
Great job here!!
TracyHi! He looked good here too!
I recognize the course as a CAMP jumpers course, which is a little above his pay grade 🙂 so be sure to be super clear about the lines, or simplify for him. And lots of rewards for the stays, especially with barking dogs around 🙂
I liked the FC and BC between 2-3! The FC and 2nd blind were especially connected and looked great. It was hard to tell what you wanted after it, so if you want the tunnel, be sure to drive all the way in with that off course jump right there.
The rear cross looked good too – if you wanted the tunnel (that’s what it looked like lol) If you wanted the jump, you would need to drive in more towards the jump, or do the RC between the 2 jumps.Great job here!
TracyWhat a good boy, running a big sequence in a new place! Yay!!!!
He read the rear really well. I bet on a different angle you will be able to put a little more pressure on the line, running to the center of the bar more. Also be sure to connect and be clear on the release, it was hard to tell if he broke the stay or was unsure about the release.Yes, the blind was a little late so coming to it after a rear will require more hustle, and also more eye contact (direct connection has saved me when I’ve been late on blinds :))
Great job!
TracyGood morning! These are going well!
Seq 2:
First run – No worries about that wide turn at the beginning, she fixed it after that and realized it was not the dog walk 🙂 You can also start her at the jump closer to the weaves, so she doesn’t see the dog walk as directly.
She did well with both the FC and the RC. I agree that the BC definitely provides the correct exit line, so see if you can get the turn verbal directional there too before she enters, so she turns tighter. On the RC rep, you can see if she will let you put more pressure on the RC line, sooner – pushing into her but giving her just enough time to get past you. That plus a verbal directional can get her turning to the left and nice & tight 🙂
>> I should have started saying it while she was in the tunnel –>>
Ideally, start saying it just before she enters, and then keep saying it – if yo start it before she enters, she has a better chance of hearing it.
Seq 3 – also went well!
Yes, on the first rep she needed more support – when you are behind her in this instances, I think the lead change away to get the jump is more dramatic so you might consider using a ‘get out’ verbal and maybe an outside arm to push her away. Go and over are ‘forward’ verbals, meaning to take what is on your line. So the ‘out’ might be worth trying as it will push her away. If you are ahead or parallel, I think your line or motion to her will get it but when you are behind, the more dramatic cues can help 🙂 You were ahead at 11 on the 2nd rep and she got it easily, and then easily found the next jump and the correct end of the tunnel. SUPER!!!>> You must have fun dreaming up some of these challenges!
Yes, it has been fun playing around with what we can show the dogs LOL! All sorts of fun trends and challenges 🙂
Great job here!
TracyHi! Hope you are having a great weekend!
This video is showing as private – can you set it to unlisted? Thanks! Looking forward to watching it 🙂
TracyGood morning!
These big courses are hard for baby dogs! You can consider breaking them into thirds as 3 mini courses to walk then run. You are doing a great job, but the mini courses might get more flow.
On the walk through – yep, that is a great plan! I bet if we handed you an experienced 4 year old dog, you would run it clean and fast. Running a youngster involves a lot of skills that the dogs may or may not have fully developed yet, so it is trickier 🙂 My only suggestion in the walk through is to look down to where she would be more, to get more connection. Really try to see InvisiblePromise each step of the way.
On the run:
Many, many fabulous pieces to this run!
A couple of ideas for you:
On the backside wrap at 2, you can leave and move forward to the tunnel sooner, as soon as she passes your feet at :53 to keep the bar up (same at 1:10 and later in the video too). That will keep the bar up (you were in her landing spot at the beginning 🙂 ) and get you to the next position more easilyThe RDW looked good! YES!! Fast, independent, and she was hitting the contact. Yay! Good layering too! She has a little trouble controlling the speed after it, she was fish-tailing a bit on the way to the frame but that will improve with experience. She was already better later in the session here!
She found the a-frame each time but not always the tunnel after it – you pulled away from tunnel 7 too soon at 1:20 but found it much better at 1:32 and 3:12 when you layered to get position but also moved forward to the tunnel. When you were pulling away at 1:20 and later at 2:58, she didn’t see the tunnel line. That is good to know, that moving forward to the tunnel is much clearer for her, even if you layer and are far away.
After the big fast lines and layering with the contacts (plus the value of the contacts) you will want to call her and insist she turn to find the boring ol’ jump LOL! when there is a contact visible that you don’t want her to drive to (1:37 and also later at 3:18). She got it the 2nd time at 1:59, so a name call will help her get it the first time.
On the jump before the weaves: Move away from the backside wrap before the weaves (2:03) sooner – same challenge as jump 2 to move away as soon as she passes you. That will help keep the bar up AND will help you set the line to the weaves – you said weaves but for one important heartbeat you moved to the tunnel so that is where she went, at warp speed 🙂
Much better moving forward to show the weaves at 3:32! Nailed it!From what I could see at this angle, the weaves looked GREAT!
For the ending line, you can isolate it and put yourself ahead to begin it, then gradually work backwards so that you can run it with her driving ahead. She was getting ahead and didn’t really know where to go. So that is something you can show her from ahead and then also we can work on getting more RCs in place in case you can’t get ahead 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>Sprite did a lovely RC wrap in her class yesterday.
Yay!!! That is a hard skill!
>she struggled to take jumps that were near a tunnel and not just dive in.
Probably higher arousal in class 🙂 Tunnels can be more tempting when arousal is higher! You can help work her through that in calmer places by using more tugging in training and also by doing more tunnel reps to get her stimulated 🙂
The either/or training at the end was great! She seems to have entered a “I GO FAST BIG LINES ARE SO FUN” stage and I am here for it 🙂 We want her looking at lines and enjoying the speed! She was also looking at the dog walk, even though the full dog walk probably doesn’t even have a ton of value yet. LOL!!! Good girl. We MUCH prefer a dog that drives lines passionately and with big speed over a dog that goes slowly and has a ton of refusals. So you are seeing the passion and that is great! Little drills like this will massage the scoping more towards the lines you want, while maintaining the speed and joy 🙂 Don’t worry at all if she is a bit wide while she is working through this – we know she can turn, and her turn skills will return when she fully knows where to focus. This is an adolescent stage of development and it is actually very fun 🙂
Serps are looking good too!! Nice job adding in your verbals!
>>She’s launching a bit, but I’m too far away from the serp jump. Angles aren’t exactly the same as your set up as I had to work with what was in the yard.>>
Yes, the bigger striding was her jumping towards your line, so it is more about the line and setup than launching in the jumping.
On the tighter serp exit where you pushed her to the far end of the tunnel (:50 and :59), you would need to be a bit more on takeoff side and we might even need to ‘work’ that exit to get more collection (meaning decelerate a bit and ask for more) but I don’t see a need for that now – she is working her body so nicely that I want her to continue sorting things out. She was already sorting it out at 1:11!
She was actually hilarious at :54 when the angle of the jump was flat (surprised, perhaps?) and she took a look at it… and said ‘no thanks’ hahaha! That is normal to see baby dogs run past that jump when they are going fast. You helped a little more at 1:05 and she fixed it – it also shows the enormity of the effort on serp lines for the dogs, she really had to work her body! And she sorted it out and nailed it at 1:15! Good girlie!!!!
Great job here! I am seeing her driving lines and going fast while also considering her jumping and body awareness (thoughtful in drive) and I am seeing you giving clear, connected cues while also running fast to show the lines.
Have you considered any NFC/FEO runs for her in the fall? Maybe all of us MaxPupper types can meet and do NFC together somewhere 🙂
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
I think she looked brilliant on both!!! The girl can run fast AND turn!!!! 16 inch bars look like no problem at all.
Both reps looked good – I liked the turn at 2 slightly better on the 2nd rep where you wrapped her to her left, because you were basically standing still at 3. On the 1st rep, you moved into position at 3 and that forward motion sent her a little wider over 2. That might be what you felt as being late? The spin moves on both sides looked great! You did a spin on the right turn side to put her on your left – she read it well and knew to come to the other end of the tunnel. The other option there is to FC and not spin, so she exits 3 on your right – that can be clearer when there is an off course tunnel right there (but she did not appear to look off course when you did the spin, and that is FABULOUS!)
>>I can’t tell which one was faster because I don’t have the program that times it.
I timed it to compare by slowing the video down – even though the right turn looks less smooth, there is more extension overall and it is a bit faster.
Great job here!!!
TracyHi!
The walk through looked strong here! Since jump 3 is an “out”, try to plan to be ahead of him so you can show the line. That would mean sending to the start wing from a bit further away to get ahead on the line.That wad what caused the bar on the first run: you were parallel to him as he was making a takeoff decision for 2, and the acceleration and line told him to jump in extension on his right lead. When you pushed in for the out, he was over the bar and dropped it trying to adjust.
The rest looked good!
On the 2nd run, he peeled off 3 at the last minute because you dropped your arm and turned away – I don’t think he stumbled, I think he was trying to figure out the line. So yes, it falls into the one more step category 🙂
Keeping your arms lower will help this too, because he will see the line longer (the high arms tend to change the line of our shoulders and pull the dogs off the line).
This went well! Onwards to sequence 4 🙂 have fun!
TracyHi!
This is looking good! Rewarding on the line definitely helped her! Plus, your motion and verbals were all good too 🙂 My only suggestion is to reward when she is furthest from you, as much as possible 🙂 so rather than reward after the tunnel, try to get the reward in after the jump before the tunnel. That will really solidify the distance skills (the tunnel is the easy part, plus rewarding after it rewards drive towards you, not drive away).Great job! Onwards to the next sequences!
TracyGood morning! Your fence looks AWESOME!
Kaladin:
>>I may have jump 3 a bit further over than it should be, but I was getting wide-ish turns on the wrap.>>
It is was the transition, not the set up 🙂 You had a super fast connected walk through, but no transition into decel and turn in the walk through – so when you ran it the first time, the cues were late (he was about a stride from takeoff and that is a little late so most of the turning was on landing
Then you can run towards 4 more (you added. That in the 2nd walk through. And in the 2nd run, you added the transition into decel at just the right moment (landing from 2)
So if you freeze the video at his takeoff points at :27 and :44, you will see that you are rotated and moving away on them both… but the turn at :44 was much better because the decel is such a powerful cue. Same at :53 – so nice! And running in a little more to 4 made it all perfect 🙂
>>Tightest wrap was when I somehow managed to step on the edge of my shoe and almost fell over. (I’m in Liz Joyce’s agility fitness class and clearly can’t think about footwork on a lateral decel while running a dog)
If stepping on your own shoe gets such gorgeous turns, keep it. HA! Kidding! My tightest turns have been when I fall on my butt LOL!
On Min’s run – the walk through it insightful! It was a goldilocks moment: not enough info on the first run, too much too soon on the 2nd run.
You did have some decel but based on where you were looking, it was late at :05 (your invisible dog was already passed you and nearing the jump, so probably had already made a takeoff decision). That is how you ran ti the first time, so the turn was a little wide.
On the 2nd run, you were decelerating as she was over 2 and looking ahead (she is watching you there, the decel plus disconnection caused the question at :39) so she didn’t commit. The last rep was just right – you were more connection and let her land form 2 before decelerating – and her commitment and turn looked great 🙂
Fortunately, her timing and Kaladin’s timing are basically the same, so you can lock into one timing rather than having to make big adjustments for each dog. They both looked great!
Nice work here, let me know what you think!
Tracy
