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Nice work getting started on the video! The first 2 reps without a lot of motion looked good. It was hard to tell why she was so wide on rep 3 because we couldn’t see you – too much motion, too soon, or following the line you were on? Theoretically, it should not matter what you were doing LOL so my guess is too much motion for now. You can add motion more gradually so she can get really consistent with the tight turns.
A question for you: is dig dig dig your verbal for both directions? She had a question at :12 about which side of the wing to go around. Something to consider is having dig dig dig be one direction for the wrap, such as wrap-to-the-right and you can use a different verbal for wrap-to-the-left (it is easy to add :))
For the next session, you can gradually add more of your motion on the wing-jump combo, and add more of her motion with a wing wrap before this setup 🙂
How far away was the distraction jump? You can also move it a shade closer to add more challenge for her 🙂
Great job!!!
TracyHello, I am excited you are here!
Which seminar was it? I think Jordan was in your area? Sounds like fun! And yes, verbals apply to the tunnels too and it is hard especially with a lot of forward motion 🙂Tracy
Hi!
Good obsessing here!!!
>>Verbals dictionary
Check- wrap right nearish wing stanchion
Dig- wrap left nearish wing stanchion
L and R- soft turns, taken moderate collection
GO- extension cue- middle of the bar, extension
Pass- backside slice wrap
Seek- backside wrap
Look- threadle slice
Zip- threadle wrap>>These are all good!! So now think about what the dogs need to do in order to execute the criteria, in terms of slowing down, weight shift, how close to the bar they need to get, etc.
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Sorting out what they need to do in order to make & maintain criteria should be super helpful for them… and also it will look different for each dog. They are different sizes and move differently, so the mechanics are going to be different.
>>Fever can occasionally need the kitchen sink thrown at him to turn if I’m being a psycho handler (yay anxiety!). He will also try to recover for this in landing/noodling in air.>>
Clarifying the behavior (his ‘job’) and using the verbals at a relatively decent time will help him be able to do it without the kitchen sink 🙂
>>I’m glad we covered with Barb jump left/right versus just left and right because I struggle with this and overthink it. I will make an effort to just switch to L and R alone.>>
Yes! It was a great question from Barb. These dogs need the info delivered as fast as possible… and saying “jump” before the left or right will delay the info pretty significantly!
Looking forward to your thoughts and videos!
TracyHi! Really nice first session here, you were able to some significant motion challenge and I am really excited bye what he was doing! His approaches to the wing wraps in general were REALLY strong, exactly what we are looking for in terms of decelerating into the turn while you accelerated. And the cool part is that he kept getting better at the mechanics as things got more stimulating – yay!!!
How far was the distraction jump? Using the wing, you can maybe move it a little closer Also, lower the bar so it is more tempting 🙂 the full height bar is relatively difficult but a lower bar will be more challenging because it will be so easy to NOT turn 🙂
Now that his mechanics for collecting before takeoff are well underway, a couple of things as you move forward:
– on this game, go back to walking and add in the jump (instead of just the wing). The distraction jump will be a bit further from the turn jump because you will want to balance with some ‘go’ reps too.
– on this wing game, we can also start to look at the exit lines (game 3, exit criteria) because I think one of the challenges you have seen with him at high speed is that he will run past stuff or not turn on landing to make the next line as precisely as we want (like what he was having some trouble with at Level Up in December).
First thing is to show more connection on the exits, looking him more directly in the eye so he knows which side of you to be on. That begins with when you added the wing before this setup – connect strongly and also be sure he can see the next wing, you were blocking his view a little on the first reps so he was wider (you were better on your left with showing the wing he needed to drive to). And as you exit all the wraps, make a LOT more connection on the exit of the wraps so he knows which side of you to be on – that is not a verbal skill, because theoretically he could exit a tight wrap on either side of you. That is what was happening here: he was exiting nice and tight but then was drifting in behind you because he didn’t know which side to be on:
Look at :53 and 1:00 and 1:07 for example after the yellow wing and as you reward at :56 and 1:09 – that is where the verbal has worked its magic but he needed more side info. Compare it to 1:03, for example: more connection! And a much better line so he knew where to be.
Now, I know that on courses sometimes he swings out wide after a turn regardless of your connection 🙂 so using the wing… move to game 3 using the wing and start showing him that challenge to help him turn nice and tight all the way through the turn.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHere is a link to a doc format for the worksheet:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xzo6deoC44y6duyH9zlgLu3mSrSQffSPLIsvXuxVRyI/edit?usp=sharing
Good morning and welcome!!! I am excited to hear about Falco!
>>And like any agility competitor that carefully chooses their next dog, I decided, in the dead of winter, to go to a random farm and buy a pup lol. He’s a BC/ACD/Kelpie mix >>
That is both hilarious and AMAZING. What a powerhouse mix!!! SO FUN!!!! I’ve seen some mixes like him in flyball and they are really outstanding.
>>so different than the BC’s I’ve trained before.
I’m guessing the ACD and Kelpie bring different opinions to the training 🙂
>Plus, right after I got him the pandemic hit (he was 12 weeks old and we went into lockdown). So, he’s basically home schooled as it was hard to find a group class that fit him once things started opening back up.
I feel that pain! My 3 youngsters are also home schooled but you are a fabulous trainer so I am fully confident that your homeschooled boy is going to be a rockstar.
>>Looking forward to learning to use more verbals in a consistence way and at speed once we can get some bigger courses setup.>>
These games will transfer nicely into the bigger courses when the snow melts! C’mon spring, hurry up!
Looking at the cues: >>Extension On A Line: • Verbal Cue Go On>>
Looks good!
>>Lead Change Away On A Line: • Verbal Cue Out>>
Also looks good!
>>• Where should the dog be over the bar while jumping? Slightly off set from the middle since they know they are not going strait.>>Yes – the exact position on the bar will depend on the context, so it is all about the lead change.
>>• Default Behaviors: Take the jump on the new lead and look for the next obstacle on their line>>>One thing to think about is: do they go back to the original lead for that next line, or stay on the new lead? For my dogs, the out cue is one lead change to pick up the new line then they shift back to the original lead. I would repeat the cue if they needed to stay on the new lead.
>>Wrap Verbals • Verbal Cue Dig Dig Dig….. • What should the dog do in front of the jump? Collect and be on the correct lead to make a turn (turn towards the direction I am on)>>Something to consider on your wrap cues is to have a wrap-left and wrap-right as two separate cues, independent of your position. Course design is kind of forcing our hand with this, by either getting us so far from the dogs that they can’t really see our position, or putting the dog walk in the middle of the ring so the dogs are working on one side of it while we are stuck on the other side of it 🙂 Having one verbal for ‘turn towards me’ means the dog has to easily process where we are – and if we are not easily seen, then that slows down the processing of the cue and widens the turn (or frustrates the dog).
>>• Default Behaviors: Wrap all the way back to me unless I give anther commandThat is interesting! Which other command would you use after a wrap cue where you wouldn’t want the pup coming back around? As long as it is super clear and consistent, it can work but we don’t want to dilute the wrap cue by causing him to wait to know if there might be an additional cue coming.
>>Loose Turns of Approximately 90 degrees (Left and Right) • Verbal Cue Left or RightSounds good!!
>>Backside Slice Verbal • Verbal Cue Back Back Back… (I’m on the takoff side of the jump)
Do you mean the landing side of the jump, or is this the threadle to the backside? Or do I need more coffee (a distinct possibility LOL)
>>Backside Wrap Verbal • Verbal Cue Back Back Back • What should the dog do in front of the jump? Not take the jump and instead change leads to find the back of the jump.Feel free to cuss me out on this one…. But these 2 backside behaviors are so radically different, as different as sit and down – so they need two different verbal cues (I know, I know, so many words LOL!!!)
>>>>• Default Behaviors: Take the jump once on the backside and orient to me and I’ll be a position that asks for a wrap.
A few years ago, I would have agreed… but then course design evolved more and we are not going to be consistently in the position to show a wrap versus a slice – so different verbals are needed. This has turned out to be especially true for the bigger dogs, who need more time to process and set up the big collection for the wraps.
So picture this – Falco exits a tunnel and you are giving your backside slice cue, so from 20 feet away he already knows what the jumping effort will be and he tons of time to set it up. Same with a backside wrap verbal!
But if the cues are the same and he hears back back back when he exits the tunnel on the way to the jump… the first thing he has to do is look at you and watch for the rest of the info – this draws his focus off of the difficult jumping effort and can cause issues for big fast dogs. >>>Jump Threadle Slice Verbal • Verbal Cue In In In….>>Sounds good!
>>>Jump Threadle Wrap • Verbal Cue would probably use In In In and a directional Left or Right to not get the slice.>>
Feel free to cuss at me on this one too LOL but same as the push to the backsides… the threadles need different verbals because they are such different behaviors and he will need all of the time to set up the jumping. These threadle wraps are super fashionable right now in course design and the judges are cleverly putting us pretty far from the dog on these…
If in in in only ever means slice, he is going to just giddy up to it and nail it. But if it could mean slice or could mean wrap… he will need to wait and that means your timing has to be exquisite all the time. Speaking for myself – perfect timing is not something I can manage to do consistently and my dogs are happier to get different words rather than depend on my timing 🙂Food for thought on adding those! And if you are right now going OMG SO MANY WORDS, totally relatable! We prioritize the important ones (at 2.5 years old, those would be GO, soft turns, and wraps, followed by backside push cues then backside threadle cues) and gradually add them in.
Great start here!! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! And welcome!
>>There are others that I have not been able to communicate to her.
Which ones have you not been able to communicate? I know that GO GO GO is high on the list. Are there others? We can prioritize those 🙂
Lovely session here to kick things off!
>>she did not want me to grab her by the collar so some collar grabs might be in line,
Yes – I noticed that you were pulling back and lifting her, she might not like that. So think of it more as sticking a finger under her collar just to touch it, rather than pull back or lift her.
>>Also, when turning to the left, she seemed to wrap wing tightly and then drift to the outside. Perhaps,my motion/position?>>
Yes – I think the difference had to do partially with the handling/motion – on the left turns, you did post turns which cued her exit to be a little wider. On the right turns, you did FCs which will cue her to drive back harder/faster. So for now, do FCs.
The other thing that made the turns a little wider was her saying “WTAF IS THIS SETUP” hahahahahaha she was very successful but it was indeed very challenging LOL! Note how she lifts her head and kind of hops towards the wing – you can see it pretty clearly at :38 – she drives straight for a couple of strides, lifts her head, ears come up a little… then just as she arrives at the wing, she wraps it. When she is processing the cues sooner, she will be setting up that wrap before arriving at the wing. And at :43 and :47, she drove looking straight for a long time (in dog years lol), looking at the distraction jump, then wrapped at the last moment. It is pretty cool to see in slow motion (she is very fast, obviously 🙂 so watching in slow motion helps us see when she is making the decision).
That is a great decision, and shows us when she is processing the cue. Stick to this level, very similar session (using the toy) for another session or two, as she sorts out how to make the wrap even with all the speed and energy from you. The only change I suggest is that you make distraction jump more tempting and easier to take by having the bar lower (a full height bar makes it harder to take, easier to wrap).
When we see her appraoching the wing looking at it and not looking straight… that is our cue to go to the next game, replacing the wing with the jump.
Let me know if that makes sense! Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>I feel embarrassed to post this because it’s obvious he isn’t understanding what I’m doing, but for some reason I kept trying instead of stopping. I included all the reps, but cut out the tugging in between from the video.
I am glad you posted it!! Nothing to be embarrassed about – you were trying different things in the session and that was important!! And plus, it is these sessions that need posting more than the perfect sessions (although it is nice to post perfect sessions too LOL!)
The sessions that don’t go as expected are the best ones for figuring out what the pup needs us to do 🙂
>>>>Ok we have a mess. Lol.
Totally not a mess, and also not too long. Really good info from Dice!
I think there were 3 things going on (and they are all linked to each other), bearing in mind that he is a baby dog:
– you can connect more between the tunnel and the wing, and the wing and the tunnel, to help him see the line better. When you connected pretty directly to his eyes, he was able to do the game a lot better! For example, at :33, great connection, just eep moving forward there. And on the very last rep – GREAT connection and he nailed it. Yay! Think of the connection as saying the verbals all directly to his cute face, and not pointing forward to saying the verbals to the obstacles. Great job using the verbals!!!!
– I think there was a lot more motion here than he is used to with the tunnel, so he was stimulated by the motion and was watching you more than looking for the obstacles. That makes sense – at the moment, he finds you a lot more fun than the obstacles. Yay! When you were connected, you were not moving as fast and get was more successful – so try moving less fast (walking at first, then a slow job) with more connection for now. When he has the lightbulb moment about the concept of staying on the line, then we can add back your motion more and more.
– that brings us to the 3rd thing – you might be thinking “how can I use less motion and still get to the wing?” LOL! For now – move the wing in closer to the tunnel. You can move it in as close as 6 feet to start (or closer, if 6 feet is too far). That will help in two ways:
You won’t need as much motion to teach him to find the lines
The wing will be more obvious because it is right there, so easier for him to find.I think all 3 ideas will work together and raise the success rate – then we can move the wing away, add more motion, and so on.
Let me know if that makes sense! I bet he has a lightbulb moment in the next session and then it will be smooth sailing and high speed 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
The serps look good, he is driving in on both sides and you are moving a bit faster (but not so fast that it is messing him up). Placement of reinforcement and connection Yay!One little detail to help him really understand the countermotion exits:
Compare the back-to-back reps at :21 and :36 –
When he is on your left arm (:21), you are releasing when you are on the landing side which is a little early for the countermotion element.When he is on your right arm (:36, for example), you are better about releasing when you are passing the wing and getting to the takeoff side.
So do more of that timing of release on the left too – your goal is to get to the takeoff side before the release so he can understand countermotion the same way as he does on the right arm side.
You can revisit this here and there, adding more motion each time too! And remember to praise him after you drop the treat – the session was very quiet and serious LOL! Praising him will build value for your voice which will be useful when he is trialing and there are no cookies available 🙂
>>Also, we have been practicing the tunnel discrimination and to start this game, me holding him is too much pressure. Thoughts? Also, he doesn’t want to go all the way in the crate when he makes his crate decision.>>
Too much pressure, meaning, he is avoiding being lined up? Isolate the skill of being held, going back to the early toy race/driving ahead games: hold him, drop something, let him grab it when you let go 🙂 You can hold his collar, hand on chest, etc – just to get him happy with being held.
And for going into the crate – use a really big crate and isolate that skill too: be sure he has a ton of value for going all the way into it even with a bit of speed, and toss the treats into it. When he loves driving into it, then you can add it back to the tunnel game 🙂Nice work here!
TracyGood morning!!
I am happy with this session!!
>>She is taking off way too early and is not adding a collection stride at all. We really haven’t done much jump work at all. But, she’s clearly not centering over the bar.
Actually, she was making very good adjustments especially when we consider how young and inexperienced she is. She had trouble going from the Go extensions to a wrap on the next rep. But when she did a couple of wraps in a row, she was making adjustments to take off closer, collect, and bend. Yay!!
So with that in mind… since doing the Go reps was creating a question on the wrap rep after it, let’s separate these 2 cues for a couple of sessions: do a session of only Go cues. Take a break, then do a session of only decel/wrap cues. After 2 or 3 sessions of each, you’ll be able to merge them back into one session. And yes, continue rewarding her decision to come back around the wing on the decels, even if her collection is not perfect. She is sorting out how to use her body and we will keep reinforcement flowing for that.
Great job!
TracyGood morning (or is it afternoon there? Lol!)
I’ll post the recording shortly. We didn’t discuss much about jump height, but I do discuss it in the 2nd game (where we replace the wing with a jump)Juno. These games all begin with low bar. One of my demo pups also jumps 500 in competition, so he was doing these games with the bars at 300 I think (12 inches). My smaller dogs who jump 400 were doing the games at 200. The low jump heights help set them up for success as they are learning the games, and we will raise the heights later in the class 🙂
Have fun!
TracyGood morning and welcome! Great seeing you in the Zoom last night 🙂
Training the verbals will help her know what to do even if you are late or mess up 🙂 Pay close attention to her success rate – if her effort is good even if the response was not perfect, you can reward! That will help reduce her need to deliver tooth hugs 🙂 Biting is a frustration behavior that goes away when we raise the success rate.
Have fun!
Tracy
