Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Good morning!
Looking at this from the end working back to the beginning:Once he gets running, he looks great! There is so much good stuff here!!
So we really need to focus on the start of the run, as you know. And good news is that he was resilient to the stress and after the first struggle at the line, he was able to come back and work really nicely. I do have a bunch of ideas for you about how to get that behavior right away, without the stress moment where he runs off.The trick video separately from the run looked good – he likes that backwards moving hand touch a lot!! I think he was dragging his leash here, but this is a great opportunity to work on changing how he feels about the leash off moment: you can take the leash off, reward offered engagement (you have to be calm in this moment!) then go into the tricks. If you want to carry him in, you can carry him to the tricks spot and practice putting him down, rewarding engagement, rewarding tricks. With that in mind:
Looking at the beginning of the 2nd video, where he runs off at the beginning:
As you were moving him to the line, you were mainly in ‘all business’ mode – but he is not an all business dog at the start line 🙂 You were walking to the position, and he did get a couple of treats for a hand touch… but it was not the same as the tricks outside the ring. Then when the leash came off, you didn’t reward engagement or do volume dial tricks – you turned to the tunnel and tried to run, but he was facing the other way, not quite ready, so he ran off. Good news is that he bounced back pretty quickly and worked really well!!Bearing in mind that the running off is a stress response, we can help him a lot on the start line!
>> >> I still need a solution to my unclip the leash>>
The solution is in transferring the skills into this challenging environment, step by step 🙂 Using the tools you have worked separately, we can bring them to the start line as well:
As you move to that first jump, knowing it is going to be stressful for him, get your high energy tricks going to get him super engaged before the leash comes off. When he is looking at you, take the leash off – and see what he does. If he offers engagement? Reward, reward reward 🙂 One way to help get that reward to him is the 2 leash version of the game – take off the more obvious leash, but gently hold the 2nd leash. That will increase the likelihood of offering the engagement and decreases the likelihood of running off (because it controls the access to the behavior because he is still technically on leash :)). And after the leash off engagement reward, you can do a bit more volume dial and then start the sequence.>>Would you recommend a ‘carry him in ‘ with my leash already off?>>
You can try it, replacing putting him down and getting engagement rather than the unclip the leash moment – but it still needs to be rehearsed as described above, in the Kryptonite situations (see below). There is no single magic behavior that will fix it, because he could just as easily take off when you put him down or let go of him. The solution is in taking the skills he has learned into the seminar & trial environment, and repeating the process to transfer the skill. He is very clever and it will happen when he is able to play the games more in the challenging environments. Ideas for you:
I think the procedures look good in isolation and in home practice. That leash off moment at the start line is his Kryptonite when in a seminar or trial environment around other people and dogs – so the goal cannot be the sequence, the goal needs to be the engagement. So looking at the games you played with the cookies inside the crate, for example: bringing him in on leash, getting the volume dial tricks going, taking the leash off (using 2 leashes if needed), letting him offer engagement, then reward, then move volume dial tricks, then into the sequence. The seminar and trial environments are so much harder (plus he has the history of start line stress) so we need to work it specifically to change how he feels and responds in that situation.
In the harder Kryptonite environments, this will start as we started it in class (and it mirrors the “not for competition” steps): with the reinforcement really visible and the setup up pretty easy for success, because the environment is soooo much harder. The games should look easy enough to be instantly recognizable even in the harder environments – and then we gradually add in the harder challenges, such as reinforcement in your pockets, the remote reinforcement, and so on.
What happened here on the video was that he was in his Kryptonite environment and he doesn’t have enough experience transferring his new skills to the start line in that environment so he wasn’t able to engage. So getting him more and more into training settings around other dogs and people, in big fields like this, will give you the opportunity to install these games into the environments he needs to see them in, in the step-wise progression that will move him to trials pretty easily.
I think we are on the right track and it is a matter of putting all the pieces in place, systematically. Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> I didn’t run T2B this AM, it was our only chance for FEO. I didn’t know when I entered how yesterday would go so I only did it once. I’m still very intimidated by the combined classes- over 60 dogs entered in T2B this morning. I will work on my confidence.>>
For now, prioritize getting the FEOs in rather than avoiding because they might be more crowded. You can set up the pre-run stuff so that he is a far as needed from any crowds, and you have a toy in the ring which will help the before, during and after! The FEO runs will give you BOTH a lot of confidence in the ring!
>>Mentally, I was spent by the time I got to this run.
Eek! 3:30am wake up would be enough for me to be exhausted LOL!
>>With that being said, I wanted to scratch all day but hung in for standard. I elected to not run jumpers. Amy got the pre run which was pretty good- aside from me again having him out to early but novice takes forever. He did really good chill at my feet.>>
About being out too early – can you bring a portable crate or cot or mat nearby in case it turns out there are 3 more years before your run? The video being 8.5 minutes long of pre-run stuff definitely shows a need to have a place to chill – even doing pattern games for the first 5 minutes was too long of a time. Sitting and relaxing is good! And if you are feeling tense, talk to people, make eye contact, smile, sing a song – as strange as it sounds, those are all tried and true relaxation methods for handlers before a run. One of the other important mental prep piece is to do breathing exercises – that will definitely help!!!
Based on his body language and response times, he seemed fine outside the ring even with the banging. You can do the high energy tricks and heeling while the dog before you is running so he is at his best centered arousal state as you walk into the ring.
>>What made me scratch was how our start went. I almost walked off. They were loading equipment and there was some banging. He wouldn’t do any trick I asked other than lie flat to the ground, but when I asked if he was ready, he did seem like he wanted to go. I decided to see what happens- this was hard, I was about to combust, but he looked pretty darn good considering.>>
A couple of things on this – you got the down, but then moved him – took the leash off after that, then leaned over him (dogs really don’t like that) and asked for hand touches – and he was like ‘um, we don’t do that here’. I think standing up and moving away from him a bit might be better choices (that is part of the reason he likes the heeling – no pressure and he gets to move into you, rather than the other way around). And it is also possible he is all business on the way into the line (run in, take the leash off, ask for the down) followed by the cartoon crouch lead out (he seemed to REALLY like that before the release!)
The run looked good – one of the reasons I like the T2B or FAST FEO is that there is not table 🙂 Tables are the biggest arousal bummers and we don’t want young dogs to stop their action and potentially have an error or notice the environment.
Will he tug on the leash at the end? The video cut off right before that. If not, getting it on him and running to cookies is fine. (Contraband doesn’t want to tug on his leash either, he wants the cookies at the end :))>>Carrie and Amy encouraged me to do jumpers because he did so well, but I really didn’t want to push him. I’m not sure if that was the right choice, but he had a good time all weekend and I didn’t want to chance ending poorly.>>
NOT running is always the right choice if your head is not in a good place and/or you are tired and/or you feel like it might set up the dog for failure.
>>I really need to work my mental management of this. He’s been brilliant and amazing and done everything I’ve asked… and I’m handling him like he’s fragile and waiting for the other shoe to drop. I was hoping with a few trials under my belt, I’d relax some, but that hasn’t yet been the case.>>
Yes – mental rehearsal and management is key! I have a couple of independent study classes to look over, and there are a lot of good ones out there where you can get instructor interaction too! But the main thing is that the mental prep has to be rehearsed and worked on, same as we rehearse and work on the running dog walk for example 🙂 It is a DAILY practice because our brains are NOT always helpful so we need to have our toolbox prepared and rehearsed, so it is at our fingertips when we need it the most (very much the same as what we are doing with the dogs here: coping skills, handling arousal, resilience from errors, etc).
I think he did really well! So the next piece of the puzzle is the mental management. Just like dog training, it is something that has a variety of existing protocols that can really help!!!
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>> The rest of the day was uneventful!!! She crated great out of car. No melt downs at all!!! She was great!!! Car ride home was terrific. Very happy with today!!!>>
VERY interesting that the car ride home was terrific. Was she crated in a different place in the car? No stress? Definitely something to tell the behaviorist!
>>I don’t really think the diarrhea this morning had to do with the car. That has never happened before. Her discomfort on the way over had to do with that. I want sure till after it was all over.>>
It might have also had to do with the challenges from Saturday. Those stress hormones can take several days to dissipate and diarrhea is pretty common.
>>Yes, hopeful the behaviorist can help with the car issues and her behavior states in which she has a very difficult time transitioning out of!>>
I just saw a seminar about Resilience In Dogs get posted, I think it is an online seminar from Barking Brains (neuroscientist dog trainers). I will find it and tag you. Also, the neuroscientist dog trainer types that I know are drumming into my head that adolescent dogs have brains that are not fully developed yet, so we need to be chill and let them grown up so their brains develop 🙂 Just like humans LOL!!!
Tracy
It was Lauren Duckworth!!! Love her!!! Great, great courses! She was my judge when premier first came out and her premier courses were fabulous!!! I was hooked the first weekend on premier 🥰. She does not judge much! She was a junior handler 🥰.
Good morning!
>> No, I don’t think you need more coffee, maybe I do? 😉
More coffee is always good for all of us 🙂
>>I think where I get confused is me thinking Pattern Games = easy for dog= feed no matter what, but I do get flustered when she NEVER stops sniffing. >>
The pattern games are really important because they give us the best view into where she is on the arousal curve and what she is struggling with – while also allowing her to work through it using a framework we have given her (and a framework of how to help her). So yes, there is a lot of waiting for her to process and engage – it is a very passive game for us humans, the dogs really drive the bus on it.
Another way to look at it: replace wanting to sniff the ground with wanting to lunge at other dogs. Yes, different behaviors on opposite sides of the arousal curve – but similar in that both interrupt the dog’s ability to engage with the handler, and they both require the dogs to learn how to disengage from the trigger, moderate their internal arousal back to ‘center’, and engage with the handler. The lunging is a more obvious behavior though 🙂
So playing pattern games with a dog that wants to lunge – if the dog looks at the distraction, considers lunging, but then returns engagement to the handler even if it takes a few seconds (high latency): reward! This is the equivalent of Zippie sniffing a bit, or looking around.
If the lunging dog is unable to stop lunging and cannot return engagement to the handler: the trigger is too close and too hard, the dog is over threshold, so the next step would be to move the dog further away from the trigger to find the spot where the dog CAN stop lunging and offer engagement with the handler. This is the equivalent of Zippie being unable to stop sniffing. If that happens, move her further from the distractions or whatever is causing stress (possibly being close to the ring, or other people/dogs).
In both cases (lunging or sniffing), trying to cue tricks may or may not help the dog because she might not be able to respond, and also because she is not learning how to moderate her own internal state and choose engagement, when she finds herself in that state and the handler is not cuing tricks in that scenario.
In many ways, the behaviors are similar in what drives them, but they manifest differently – but can be handled similarly in pattern games.
>>But I will repeat it so it sinks in better : wait for engagement, dont cue it, and reaching for cookies IS a cue. If it’s too hard get further away.>>
Yes 🙂 And reaching for the cookies is a cue for sure (dogs see EVERYTHING lol!) but also it is a good sign that she was aware that you were reaching for the cookies – if she was severely under-aroused or severely over-aroused, she would not notice if you brought out a giant steak!
Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyGood morning!
On the lap turns, I think she is reading them well. You can edit the video less so I can see how the rep starts when dong the one jump reps – the lap turn was a little awkward at first probably because she was starting too close and had to wait for you to show the cue? And for the reward, try not to reward in front of you – instead, if the toy is in the outside arm you can throw it so she drives out of the lap turn or you can have The cookie or toy in the turn hand too deliver or throw.
When you add the rocking horses/2 wings, try sending to the wing further so you are not running backwards more than one step and so you can be set in the lap turn spot. I think that was what was making it a title harder for her to read it (she was good about waiting for where to be while you ran backwards LOL! But we really don’t want you to run backwards, she is too fast for that so the sending will be your friend here 🙂
And being relatively stationary to cue the turn will help her learn to love to drive into you without needing motion, which is a SUPER skill for baby Border Collies 🙂Lateral lead outs – her commitment looked FABULOUS and so did her turns! YAY! That allows you to work on other details.
>> My issue was trying to keep straight which arm I was supposed to use (I did watch the video again and then I get outside and can’t remember anything).
Part of this stage of training is developing your own system of communication with her. In general, when you are on the takeoff side of 1 (landing side of 2), using the dog-side arm makes more sense. When you are on the landing side of 1 (takeoff side of 2), using the dog-side arm still makes sense, but also for many dogs it is fine to be rotated and use your opposite arm (almost like an old school ‘recall to heel’ except positionally you are further over. I think it depends on what would happen on jump 2: for a throw back, I would do the dog-side arm for the send and throwback, like you did here. For a front cross and run 1-2, using the opposite arm with you already rotated totally works, because it is like already being halfway through the FC 🙂
Her commitment is strong enough that you should show her ALL the things and then you gave a gigantic toolbox to pull from,
The one thing I would add on all of these, though, is more connection before the release. You were looking forward (probably thinking about what you were going to do) so she was looking at you. Ideally, she would focus forward a little more – the connection will get that (plus it stabilizes the start line). When we connect to the dog, they tend to look forward better. When we are not connected, they look at us.
>> I think some of my problem was the toy and trying to hold it in my throwing hand. When I did the throwback at the end, the hands made more sense… >>
The toy can be in either hand, and it is good for her to get used to your hands carrying a toy and she ignore them til you mark that it is time to grab them.
You can add a little more distance on these as you get your hands more comfy!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! I am glad you are feeling better and also – look at all that green grass! YAY!
On the lap turns:
Remember the 3 inch rule 🙂 That is keeping your feet together and your magic cookie hand extended towards him as he is coming towards you, til he is 3 inches or less from your hand. Then the leg goes back and the arm moves with it, drawing him back first then turning him away. You were too early on these, starting it when he was a couple of feet from your hand. What happens when you are too early (especially with the leg movement) is that your leg gets stuck back so he doesn’t know what to do like at :46, or he reads it as a throwback to the other side of the wing at :57. So I try to stand totally still until he is very close, then it will be easier (standing still is HARD! LOL!) If you end up running backwards to the position, no worries – you can keep moving backwards til he is 3 inches from your hand, or stop in position til he is 3 inches from your hand. Eventually you will be able to send him away to the other wing, so you won’t have to run backwards 🙂Tandems looked good! He likes the motion a LOT and the timing can be earlier, so he read them really well. YAY!
>> I think this was pretty good considering it was VERY HARD to keep him from being too distracted outside.
Part of it is that he is really inexperienced working outdoors, so you can do the high motion, super easy games. And use a crazy toy or ball. If you use food, feed from your hands from now – throwing treats in the grass was making him a bit sniffy because they added smells and if he didn’t know what to do, he would sniff around a bit.
The backside video was the same link as the lap turn/tandem video – let me know what you repost it, I am looking forward to seeing it!
TracyHi!
This was a really interesting series of sessions! At first she TOTALLY thought you were insane and it was stooopid. And it was really cool to see you make it easier, reward a lot, and build it up – and note how she got faster and faster! YES!
>>< I know I was facing the wrong way I realize now. On those moments: It was not so much facing the wrong way, as it was using alternate styles of handling. And that is all good. In fact, when you had the 2 jumps with you on the landing side of jump 1, she totally preferred when you used your outside arm/step to landing, and didn’t like the dog side arm/step to take off. And that is fine, because basically you and she are developing your own system of communication. I really only have one idea for you (you sorted it all out on your own, pretty much LOL!) - you can have a food bowl placed on the landing side of the 1st jump, tucked into the wing closer to you - so she has a visual target and looks at you less. And then you can toss the reward into the food bowl as you build these up to add even more distance. I am really happy with how her speed developed here and I know she will continue to get faster and faster - great job breaking it down to help her out! SUPER!!!! Tracy
Hi!
>> This was my leash in pocket solution since I can’t wear a jacket at 90° running. I figured since people can wear their Hurrta training vest, why can’t I wear a training skirt?>>
Excellent point!
>>We are showing again today. Hoping it will be more low key because it’s the end of the trial and most people leave.>>
The environment can be lower key, but you can be higher key from the entry gate to the start jump 🙂
>>I probably can get a bigger lead out, I’m just not good at those because Callie doesn’t have one so I feel like getting to the landing side is SOOOO FAR 🤣. I watched the video and was like oh it took one step past the landing side>>
Yes! Work a little bit more lead out in! Have fun and keep me posted 🙂
TracyGood morning!
Sorry for the delay, I am at a trial and these videos didn’t want to load for some unknown reason. I finally convinced them LOL!!!He did well here – considering it was a challenging environment, try to engage him more on the way to the line in both runs. You were quiet, you were looking forward, so he was looking around a bit. You can do your fancy heeling! And definitely you can talk to him and jog to the line. All of that is to get him more stimulated and looking around less.
If there is an FEO option in the other runs, definitely take it so you can, yes, reward weaves and teeters for example – but mainly so that you can just play and getting him looking at you and obstacles more, and ignore the outside the ring more too. That will help him ‘see’ the jumps that he is running near & past, and not go around them. The more he get ring experience and play in the ring, and the more stimulated you can get him on the start line, the better he will pick up the lines.
You were very chill on the start line and that makes me chuckle – it might be the only place you are chill hahahah! For that movement from the entry gate to the start line, you are traded from Team Chill and acquired by Team CrayCray 🙂
You did a great job staying connected and keeping him moving! Yes, don’t say table, just run at it and point at it. LOL! Tables are annoying LOL!
Great job! How are your runs today?
TracyShe looks wonderful!! I think Nanny Jamie looks more uncomfortable than Roulez did hahahaha Yay! Don’t let her twitching on the start line cause you to twitching- on that first lead out, she twitched so you stopped for a moment. Just keep running away like you did on the 2nd lead out. It is her choice to settle & stay… or break. Breaking gets a stop in the action, staying gets the release! The 2nd lead out was perfection 🥰 and so was the run. Let me know how the rest of the day goes!
TracyWow, she looks great! Who is the judge? I love the spacing on this course.
I think the main priority now is the car travel issue, following by helping her be more resilient when something goes wrong (like scary yelling men). The agility looks wonderful 🙂 the behaviorist should have amazing info about the car and sep anx. One of my colleagues here is a dog trainer/agility competitor who also works for Behavior Vets, so I can hook you up with her if you want.
In the meantime, on the Agility side of things, keep playing these games and building on them. Keep her in the Step 1 FEO with the toy for now, til the other stuff starts getting more sorted out, then we can move to the next steps 🙂
Great job!
TracyI think the best way to do it is to mirror what the NFC runs would be – start with cookies visible in your hands (or a toy). When he has several successful sessions of that, go to cookies or toys hidden in your pockets. Then if that is good for a few sessions… onwards to nothing in your hands or pockets and a reward station outside the ring.
THi!
>>
You’ve given me a lot to think about and digest. I will need to read and re-read your feedback….something I just do.On using my turn in class to work the environment….. would I take the games to the middle of the course and work them near, but far from what might trigger her? So far, I work the games on the perimeter while waiting my turn or take the games near a person that she might trigger on…Like when I tug with Posh close to a judge in the morning of a trial. Take those games etc into the middle of the course/equipment as my turn? I’m trying to grasp what that might look like. Can you give me an example, please?>>
Yes, pretty much as you have described. She reacts to the ‘judge’ sometimes, or the ring crew… so you would go into the ring and play the pattern game (for example) about 10 feet from the judge until she is no longer looking at the judge. Or if there are spectators with their dogs outside the perimeter of the course, do the games from inside the ring. These are basically Kryptonite games, played inside the ring to tackle the distractions she will only experience inside the ring.
Control the environment by having her on leash, so she can’t leave to bark and so you can control the distance away from the distraction.The games can be any/all of the pattern games, volume dial, off leash offered engagement, remote reinforcement, etc. You can choose a game to start with (I always choose pattern games to start) and work from there.
If the distraction is quickly overcome, you can then do part of the sequence. If you turn is 3 minutes long, for example, spend the first minute doing the game inside the ring. And then if she looks engaged and there are no surprise distractions? You can try a bit of the sequence (that is something to plan with your instructor in advance).
And if you have a sequence planned and then suddenly a new distraction pops up? Switch gears 🙂 Tackling the distraction as top priority will make a big difference in the long term.
You have been working these outside the ring and things are going well! The environment and context inside the ring are pretty different and she still has questions in that context, so the class or training environment is a perfect place to work that.
let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! It looked crazy windy on the video (and cold!). It was smart to skip the actual run – too many factors working against guaranteeing a great time in the ring.
She did well on the video here! For the pattern game stuff in the beginning, you were mixing in tricks too – I think, for her, you can start with a pure pattern game in a new environment: the toss the cookie, wait for offered engagement, toss the next one (or drop on shoe like you were doing here). She was having some trouble with the grass and sights/smells/sounds, so it would help her to let her be in lower arousal so she can moderate her own internal arousal.
The tricks bring her into higher arousal, which is us helping her (which is useful for sure) but the bedrock is her helping herself 🙂 with the pattern games – and the lower arousal is where we want her for those so she can work through the state she might find herself in during her run or at the start line. Let me know if that makes sense or if I need more coffee 🙂
And then when she is very engaged, you can do the tricks (she does those really well!) My only suggestion on those is to move away from her more than towards her – you were doing some backing up and moving towards her, but she prefers when yo move away (it puts her into a higher state of arousal).
The other thing you can do outside the ring is show her where your reward station is and do a tiny bit of remote reinforcement! I do this now with all 3 of my young dogs, even if it is just 20 seconds of it. They are all fully aware of where to go at the end of the run but appear undistracted and engaged during the run, so something must be making sense to them LOL!
Her pivoting looked really good! That is a fun game to play when there is a lot of activity around 🙂 One small suggestion is to let her offer before your hand goes to your pocket. She was not offering until after your hand moved to the cookie pocket… then she was on board. So be careful to not tip her off with cookie hand movement 🙂 If she can’t “see” the pivot prop, then you can move her a bit further away from the distractions to see where her threshold is.
Great job! Keep me posted about how today goes!
Tracy
