Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Good morning!
>> So this whole breathing thing. I am pretty convinced you made it up. I won’t be taking further questions at this time. Thanks
Ha! I swear, it is the real deal. Dr. Karen Overall is the person to google search:
https://www.dacvb.org/members/?id=57319655
And Leslie McDevitt brought it into the dog training world in a more accessible way.
And he was TOTALLY doing it in the video! You can see it after the first Chex huff moment: note how he closed his mouth and TOOK A BREATH. Score! It is good for both of you 🙂
And yes, I too would be eating all the Chex mix LOL!!
>> But really. So because we struggled so much to find ourselves early in life, I did a ton of trick shaping with the red one. We love it. It’s our jam. I love shaping tricks. He gets really fucking happy for it.>>
The tricks are GREAT and very useful! He clearly thinks heeling is the coolest trick, so keep playing with it 🙂
>>We are out here cold. It’s 75 degrees and he starts open mouth panting super quick. I can’t appreciate his calming deep breaths when he’s panting!>>
Just a sign of arousal increase in the training environment. Rate of respiration increases! So the take a breath game gets more important to work canine mindfulness 🙂
>>Here’s me eating snacks, huffing Chex mix and moving a shoe. Maybe dog training?>>
The take a breath moments are looking good! Do a short session here and there… and then when you want to work the instant focus, break out of the other game, take a break, and reset for instant focus. Going directly into it was a little confusing for him, about where to look: at the shoe? The mom and the Chex? So for instant focus, you can be standing and holding treats, just like a trick training session. And when the shoe is magnetic, take it to step 2 🙂
Now I am hungry for some cereal for breakfast 🙂 Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>> But that’s what we’ll try next with a lesser toy and work our way up to the “APDB”. >>
This might take two sessions or 100 sessions 🙂 It doesn’t matter how long it takes, because it is important learning 🙂
>>How important is it for the treats/toy to be naked and free for the stealing in my reward chair? For our purpose it’s still ok for them to be in jars?>>
It is important that she is successful, so having them in bags or jars for now is perfectly fine 🙂
>>There’s an agility buddy I will ask to be my first person. She is in class with us and we recently shared a VRBO. So Posh is used to her, likes her, but isn’t used to her in our backyard. She can be our leash runner. Ha!>>
Perfect! Happy Kryptonite!
>>So here’s something I’ve discovered about Posh and her toy possessiveness. If she tugs with a toy, she is more possessive of it than if we just play fetch, no matter the value of the toy. So, if we do a sequence and I reward her by holding out the toy for her to run, grab, and tug, she has more trouble letting it go (possibly hanging on my arm with her paw or jumping repeatedly at me to grab it back) for our next sequence, than if I throw the same toy for reward and we play fetch. Weird? Normal?>>
Normal! As the arousal gets higher, the body chemistry of the dogs will change – and we often see the dogs struggling to let go of the toy. It is simply a barometer of how high her arousal is – in those moments, note it and bring her back to a more centered state with cookie tricks in between toy play moments. We are always looking for that optimal state of arousal 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> >She really likes the T&T as reward.
Was the T&T on her reward station? Many dogs love love love the T&T on the reward station!
>>I also prime the cup holder of the chair with two to 3 different kinds of treats that she gets to gobble up. We did pattern games, foot target games and she was able to bark before “entering the ring” through all her reps.
Great!
>>About half way through, one of the students, who Tango really likes, brought his puppy out and played tug and did some stanchion work on the jump. Tango and I then entered the ring as he moved away from the jump still tugging and playing with his puppy. That definitely upped the kryptonite for her, but while she wasn’t as ‘up’ as I would like her, she was still able to check in with me on entering the ring and when I took her leash off. She also was able to take the jump enthusiastically. I was pretty pleased overall.>>
This is also great – it sounds like a happy kryptonite 🙂 Yay! Since she had a little bit of trouble (not being as “up” as before) stick with happy kryptonite for now – and we can plan to add some less-happy kryptonite like noise. Does she notice the bang of the teeter at all? I think noise is hard for her and also gates – movement and noise. You can have the previous dog exiting through a gate but she does not see a gate as she enters, if that makes sense.
>>So, here is my challenge and question: Tango’s ball is not enough of a reward for her in the ring or out of the ring to bring enough value to our FEO runs. I have entered her in two runs of a USDAA trial that I want to run FEO, but need some help brainstorming how to do this well for her.>>
Will she interact with it as a bridge to the primary reinforcement? For example: when I was doing a lot of NFC with Nacho, I would throw his ball (he would go get it, but it was NOT a primary) and then as he was getting it, I was running for the exit and then he got his T&T which is a primary reinforcement. I have video of that somewhere that I can dig up 🙂 It is one of the reasons that he is so great at flyball – the ball is the bridge to the primary reinforcement, so he goes to get it as fast as he can, in order to get back really fast for the cheese LOL!! It was a real problem solver in terms of focus and engagement.
I am also a big fan of entering a whole lot of runs so I can have multiple short blasts (thankfully UKI is inexpensive and most USDAA might be too?) So if she really will not interact in a reinforcing way with the ball, you ca do short blasts in and out of the ring to treats. Are any of the USDAA classes the MISC class? Last I checked, you could go out, get a treat, come back in. And I think there are more UKI trials in your area that might be useful and fun!
>>I have been really working hard on the pre-ring offered behaviors and the remote reinforcement as I think these will be key for success with her.
Totally agree! And adding the Kryptonite games will help too 🙂
>>I am trying to build massive value into the delayed reinforcement and get the optimal mental state from the pattern and instant focus things. Any other suggestions? >>
The ball-as-bridge is a good addition, meaning that when you throw the ball, it predicts heading out too get the primary (FOOD :)) You won’t be able to get more than one rep of it at the trial because you are heading put of the ring, but you can prime the pump for it in training with the games you describe above: ball-then-T&T 🙂 Criteria for the ball? Chase it a bit, she doesn’t have to grab or play or love it, just chase it. And at the trial, ask a friend to be ready to go get it for you because she is not likely to carry it out LOL!!
For USDAA, ask the judge if you can throw it – it is generally fine in a 1 ring trial. Who is the judge? (The thrown ball is not fine in AKC – and totally fine in UKI :))
>>I think that because she is aging that I need to be careful with how many times I use the jump up and touch my hand reward. Any thoughts on that?
Good point!! Spins might replace some of that? And barking on cue – only her vocal cords will get sore LOL!
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
Is he in a regular group class? Can any of your classmates act as rung crew, or provide some distractions by having their dogs out and about? He definitely can use some more trial-like distractions to practice his games!
Tracy
Good morning!
> I noticed in some of the videos you are able to use food while in line by the ring. What do you do with the food as food is not allowed in the ring? NADAC does not allow food within 10 feet of the ring so i can’t use it when the dogs are waiting in line but I did start leaving something near the ring for between runs since the crate area is far away.>>
Yes, UKI and USDAA and AKC allow food all the way up to the ring gate and at the location where you can see some of the NFC runs – the area was really tight so the only good waiting spot was by the ring 🙂
For NADAC and I think also ASCA where food is not allowed that close? In those instances, I have my reward station out 10 feet (or more) past the exit, and I do almost all of my waiting 10 feet away from the ring where food is legal 🙂 Then at the very last minute, I move into line then basically run into the ring when it is my turn. Otherwise you end up potentially waiting a long time without food and the state of arousal can fizzle out and he might get stressed.And if the gates steward tries to rush you into line? Smile politely and tell him/her that you promise to be on the line before the judge needs you to be (because you will be jogging in LOL!) It works well – it does require being an advocate for the dog, but that is good!
>> at the NFC runs you will want to not ask for a stay
What would that lineup look like? I usually just take his leash off, wait for him to come back and then get him over the first obstacle as quick as possible. >>For your first run, position him on an angle or near a tunnel so it is really easy to just go go go. For the first run, try to take off the leash and wait for him to look at you. The instant he looks at you? Cue the first obstacle and run run run 🙂
It is hard to know exactly what he will do at the trial – he has a history of the behavior of moving away then coming back at the start line Ike in the video, but for the last 6 weeks he has had a LOT of reinforcement for engagement when the leash comes off. So – this is mainly an assessment to see how much the reinforcement has shifted his reflexive response, and what else we need to do 🙂
>>Often he will come back and lie down near me so I just spin him over. His last start at NADAC before this class.>>
You can try asking for some of his favorite tricks as you move to the line, before taking the leash off.
So in my perfect happy world, he will immediately engage and NOT leave, like in class, so you can just get started for the first run (and then plan to add more for the next run). But since we are looking to see what he does in the more challenging environment, it is possible he might take longer to engage, or he might leave and come back – it is all good, just information. So if he takes longer or leaves then comes back, you can still cue the first obstacle and run run run 🙂 You can totally make up your own fast and fun course!And for the first run – run with a toy in your hand so it is just like home! Even if you don’t play til the run is finished, have it visible.
>> with the leash runner and he had trouble staying. I was wondering if maybe he just didn’t have a long stay
The leash was hanging down and caught his attention similar to the run Thru. He does not have a good stay the more excited he gets the more it goes. I just get him to the line and go. At trial that’s the point he takes off and runs around to leash or whatever.>>UKI is a really competitor friendly organization, so you can totally tell the leash runner that you are running NFC and he is learning to ignore the leash runner… so to please stand still while he is starting and not grab the leash and walk away til he is into his run.
>> I noticed that he stayed engaged during discussion with your instructor and got right back to work
Yes, that’s much improved and I didn’t really have to do much>>This is GREAT!!!!!
>> What did you enter?
Jump Height: 8 Regular
Event Date Event Level
April 24,2022 (Sunday) Gamblers-1 Beginner
April 24,2022 (Sunday) Agility-1 Beginner
April 24,2022 (Sunday) Speedstakes-1 BeginnPerfect!! So you can start anywhere you want in Gamblers and I believe you don’t have to start at the start jump if it is hard to find a good line – you can ask them to start the timer for the NFC on whichever jump you need to start on. That first run is an assessment – how does he feel on the start line? And do a short fast run, then out to the rewards. Yay!
If he has questions, do the same thing on the second run.
If he has no questions, we can add in a line up and short stay on the next run(s).
You had mentioned that is might be possible to take him up there the day before to play some games and get acclimated – let me know if that is still possible 🙂
I will be at a flyball tournament so I will be able to get to my email and messenger all day! If you want to send updates and ask questions, feel free to put it here in the forum, or email agilityuniversity@gmail.com or facebook messenger 🙂 That way if you have in-the-moment questions or planning, I am happy to help 🙂
Have fun!
TracyHi! I am glad you had fun with those challenges! That is how courses trending so it is really fun to work on those skills!!!!
And it is inspiring to work the skills of trusting the verbals 🙂 And StrykR nailed it here! This bodes well for the future 🙂 I am doing the big happy dance about his tunnel-threadle response – he is basically doing that on his own (going to the ‘other’ side and finding it) and you are able to keep your feet running more and more forward. YES!The session looked great – he had no big questions. One moment where you stopped moving on a tunnel verbal so he looked at you, and one moment where he looked at the ground on an in in because that is where the cookie ball had just been thrown hahaha
Your verbals are super clear in terms of words and style of delivery – that is going to be really effective!! As you add more running, you might find you need to repeat the tunnel verbal because it is hard to hold out the sound on bigger distances while also needing to breath. But that is something experiment as you add more running.
And, speaking of running… add more running now 🙂 You kept a measured pace here to help him process all his verbals. He nailed it! So now speed up the motion – next session can have you jogging the whole time, then you can build to running. You can spread out the distances a bit so it is easier to add more motion.
Great job!!!! Let me know how he does with the additional motion 🙂
TracyHi!
This went really well too! The rear crosses to her right look great! The rear crosses to her left also look really strong – she is doing them but not as smoothly as to her right, she must be a righty LOL!!
She doesn’t yet fully love love love the rear crosses yet so she slows down when she feels the RC pressure, especially to her left. So since she is reading them when you ask for then, you can change the ratio: do far more driving ahead go go go reps for now, and sometimes toss in a rear cross 🙂 So maybe 1 rear cross for every 4 or 5 go go go (and you can add in the mission transition wrap games too, as those emphasize driving ahead too).
The backside wraps look great! Yay! You had one where you rushed a little at 1:16 by moving into her line too quickly and too soon, but the rest were great and she is reading them beautifully. The key to those is the patience to let her get by you and turn her head to the jump, then you can start moving again.
Great job! Enjoy the day off and good weather!!!
TracyGood morning! Days off AND good weather? YAY!!
This was a really good session – yes, she had the error on the first rep but then she had a lightbulb moment and got it all correctly after that. You did a great job breaking it down in terms of motion then building it back up, and lovely mechanics of your serp position!!!
When you were sending to the tunnel while standing still, remember to also use your dog-side leg on the send (upper body was perfect). Keeping the dog-side leg back might confuse her – there were no problems with it when you were running.And for the next serp session, keep all the good mechanics and move yourself closer to the jump to start – try to be close enough to touch the jump. That makes the turn a little more challenging and the tunnel a little more tempting 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi! He is sorting this one out – A slight adjustment in how you set it up should help:
Move the start wing closer to the camera here, and also closer to the jump. That way he will have more room to make the decision and also less yardage to travel to get to the jump.
The other thing you can do is reward approximations of the behavior. On the rep sat :35 and :45, he was indeed moving away to the jump… so even though he was not quite taking the jump, he was offering a ‘get out’ behavior of moving away so you can throw the ball out away from you on those. When you fixed it, you were turning and facing the jump so those were more of a send and less of a ‘get out’. Rewarding the approximations will help him understand to move away to the jump as you move forward on the line.
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! He is doing really well with these turn away/lap turns! Yay!
One small detail: keep your feet together, for longer. You might have heard us discussing the 3 inch rule in the live class – keep your feet together til he is 3 inches form your hand, and *then* step back to start the turn. That is clearest for the dog and produces the best responses. At :21 and :37, you were closest to the 3 inch rule and those were his best turns (snappiest and fastest :)) On the other reps ( :07 and :30 and :41 and :54) you were a bit too early with the step back, so he was slowing down coming in towards the wing and not as zippy on the turns. So it will feel a little weird to stand still that long, but it will produce awesome turns 🙂
Nice work!
TracyHi! This looked great! And that is the pool near her, which she completely ignored? Super!
A couple of ideas for you:
add in some engaged chill 🙂 You kinda had i tgoing when she was standing still riht before you entered the ring, but you to put it on earlier and also be less energetic about it LOL It will be for the moment when you have a couple of dogs ahead of her, bu you want to look at hte course. Then you can go back to the high energy tricks right before you go into the ring.
Then, to be sure the reward station is significant: let her see you put a couple of cookies down on it, then feed her the last one before you enter the ring.
And… add in a toys now! Using kibble at home is great – and with the remote reinforcement element of it (having to ignore the stuff on the reward station), add in toys, balls, and yes – the APDB (All-Powerful Dumbbell :))
It cracked me up when you thanked the leash runner LOL ! Ha!
You can moe the entire game closer to the pool or closer to the poo 🙂 to increase the kryptonite level.
If you have guests or family come to the house… enlist them to stand around as ring crew in this game (sorry, not sorry haha)Eventually we can do all sorts of crazy things will friends and family as kryptonite 🙂
Great job 🙂 Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I think you are indeed running pretty straight on almost all of the get out reps! The were one or two where you moved in towards the jump a bit but those are outliers – I am happy with all the rest! I was going to recommend adding running to the get out… but then you added running and it was great LOL! Yay!! You can fiddle around with how high you need your arm to be for the get out especially as you add more running – you can play with having your outside arm more at your hip level and hot at shoulder level? It will ultimately end up being handler preference, because it will be whatever feels best while you run that she can still see 🙂And all of the ‘non-out’ reps looked great! Love it!!!
Great job here!
TracyHi!
>Tracy yes I made a big mistake leading out without connection. This was all my doing … I’m pretty low as it all went to crap yesterday. Still I have to sort it .. he is my only comp dog atm. In training I don’t need food or ball .. I run to the reward station .. it’s like that start line has been poisoned.>>
Try not to get too low about it – his next run was great! Yes, the lead out is a bit poisoned at the moment… but it is on the way back because he was doing it in short bursts. Just keep making it fun and happy like you did 🙂
He might need the reward station further away in trials than he does in training for now? It just seemed to interrupt his flow to have the cookies right there and then leave them.
T
Hi! Really good stuff here, he looked great!
At the beginning: The Pattern game definitely helps! Even in a familiar location, he looks around at all the ‘things’ so the pattern game was getting him to whip back into focus.
>>I think I’m learning that fast hand touches with me moving might be a good volume up game. Is it possible that hand touches with movement can be a volume up and hand touches without movement can be a volume down? >>
Yes – when you are moving, the energy really ramps up which is GREAT! One thing I notice is that when you are quiet, it is a big dial down of the volume dial (too far down perhaps). And the more energetic you were, verbally? The more he ramped up 🙂
Talking to him during the moving touches really helped, even just the verbal and quiet praise – I bet he will like an even more energetic verbal (cue and praise) with all the things! You had more volume and energy in the verbals towards the end of the session and I think he soaks that up like a sponge 🙂 And, by contrast… he looks away a lot when you are quiet. So definitely use your voice in the volume dial game!
SUPER brilliant of him for ignoring the reward station during the tunnel-jump-tunnel sequence in the middle and at the end!!! He looked awesome!! It was hard to see him for a moment at the reward station, maybe doing some of the leash off engagement games but based on your response, he was great 🙂
Since we have added cookie-free pattern games, I bet you can use the moving and loud hand touches: so you enter the environment and cue one (moving and loud) then you get quiet. He can assess the environment if he likes… then when he re-engages, cue the hand touch then move and get loud. That can help get even more engagement when you have no cookies AND can help him bridge the gap of offering engagement when you are quiet 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense! Great job here!
TracyHi! This is all fabulous information!!! Overall – really really good stuff here:
1st video, playing before looks good- he was peppy! Lots of fun tricks!! For now, I prefer his behavior when you feed from your hand rather than toss the treats – right now, after the tossed treats, if there is a stop in the action, he was looking for more treats and doesn’t stay engaged. So, feed from your hands or put the cookie on your shoe for a pattern game, but don’t toss the treat into the grass.
1st run – good stuff here and 2 big lessons!
First – I love how he started to sniff but then lifting his head and moved into the sit!!!!! YES!!! That is a big win.Then, lesson #1 – you walked away with a complete disconnection, showing the toy to the judge -that ‘popped’ the engagement bubble and he took off. Alright then, easy fix: don’t disconnect at all 🙂 If you need to show the toy to the judge, show it before you take the leash off and line him up so you can stay fully engaged.
Lesson # – he is not quite ready for the food to be delivered that close to the ring then leave it again – he was fine ignoring it at first but then couldn’t leave it to run again. So, he needs to see this remote reinforcement setup around the start line, with the food behind him and you take a step or two away towards the jump, then go back to the reward, then add in more steps an the lines up – the remote reinforcement combo games will teach him that.
When you got him running, he did really well!
And on the 3rd video, he looked great – it might be that he was further away, but also it might be the more connected start.
So in training, the main thing now is the remote reinforcement combo games, first at home, then in the agility environment.
And, for running courses at the trial – just do a one step lead out for now, so he can get released into the run before he gets worried about it 🙂 You can do the leash off game that you did in the 2nd video, but without the long lead out.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
