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Good morning!
I will dig up a threadle/wrap video, I have a bunch somewhere 🙂
Really nice stay here makes the training of this grid SO MUCH EASIER!!! So great job with that and with all the reinforcement to maintain it.
She did well here with an introductory session on this grid. It is possible that 5.5 feet is a too wide and 5 foot distances would be better to get her landing more in the middle of the space – although some dogs juts set up their jumping to land slightly closer to the bar in this grid.
But before you change the distance… the next variable to add in is the moving target (it is not in the demo video mainly because we gotta get the dogs introduced to the grid without a moving target, to make sure the stay and the coordination is where we want it. Well, she hit a home run on that so we can have you dragging the moving target toy for the next session. Do exactly what you did here, back chaining it, and let’s see where she lands exactly. The moving target changes things so don’t change the distance. We might go back to 5 feet (or not LOL!). But either way, that is nit picking and I think she did a GREAT job here!!!
Tracy
Good morning (or afternoon now haha)
She is just the most fun dog to watch – adorable and brilliant and fast!
I totally agree that left was easier. She is a lefty! So for the right turns, you can use a pre-placed reward a few times to help her out: either hold her and toss the toy to between the 2nd and 3rd bar, or use food by putting a food bowl out between the 2nd and 3rd bar for her to target to (with a cookie in it at first, then without a cookie and you can toss the cookie in)
You can use a reset cookie on the good try moments or if that might disturb the tugging, you can reset then tug then try again.
She did really well turning away from you especially to the left. When you were too close to the jump wings, turning away got harder and she went the other direction – so for the next session or two, you can stay nearer to the center of the bar on the turn aways so she can have full success.
Zig zags:
Great job rewarding the terrific stay!
Having the 2 wings angled more visibly like you did on wings 2 and 3 really helped her – smart training! She did really well with her lead changes here. How far apart were the wings? They looked to be a little less than 2 meters, so you can try them at 1.5 meters. And if that goes well, you can try them at 1 meter. That will be pretty close and require her to do very fast lead changes (and require you to do fast handling LOL!) but because of her size, working that short distance will help her get super quick with the lead changes.Great job here on both! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! It is perfectly fine to put several games in one post.
You are so right: connection sounds so easy, but yet it turns out to be the hardest thing for all of us LOL!
On the serp video – having the cross arm seemed to really help the upper body get into position. Might not always need it, but you can also choose to keep it! It is totally personal preference.
On the serps, she was coming in really nicely and able to transition back and forth between the FCs and the serps easily. Nice!! She also got the backside pushes really well – SUPER!!!
My only suggestion for the serps and the pushes is to place the reward out ahead on the next line (towards where the next jump would be on a serp). She is looking at you over the bar and not making the next turn til you throw the reward. So placing the toy (or a food bowl) will help direct her focus to the line so you can get both turns on the serp and backside slices.
Zig zag video:
Having a great stay totally helps! This went well!
She did well on 2 wings and just needed a bigger indication to come to the correct side on the first rep of 3 wings. When there is a handling error (because that was indeed a handling error because the lead changes are cued by handling :)) you can totally give her a reset cookie. She didn’t know what to do and by walking away, you got some stress sniffing. So stay connected to her, give a reset cookie when there is a handling error. Note the difference in her striding when you gave a clearer, earlier indication at :43 – she was great! And be nice and early like you were there – you were a little later on the last rep so she was delayed in responding.
For the next session, start like this on 3 wings for a couple of reps. And then if it is going well, move them about a foot closer together so that you and she both have to do it all faster 🙂Find the jump – wheee! I think she liked this one LOL! Be connected but keep moving and upright. Think of it more as running while looking towards her eyes, rather than hovering (you were bent over and hovering on the last couple of reps). As long as you keep your dog side arm down and back towards her, you should be able to connect and run without bending over back towards her.
She was perfect here, so you can add more distance between the jump and the tunnel, as well as change your position. You were ahead on these, so now try to be more lateral. And you can run in closer to the tunnel so she can drive ahead of you.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyCool! Remember to count failures: if he fails twice in the session, make it easier usually by dialing back the motion 🙂
TracyHi! He did well here!
I think you were combining a couple of games here and we can get even better skills going by keeping them separate:At the beginning, what would he do if you just took off the leash? Run towards the window? For the leash engagement game, I would just want to take the leash off and see what he does. You were getting his attention and getting him into position, but that is not the same as allowing him to offer engagement as a conditioned response ot the leash coming off. So keep that element separate from the stay and the jump for now.
>>I normally shove the harness and leash in a pocket but my food and ball were in the way today. Going to have to work on throwing the leash back because that’s definitely a distraction for him.
Yes, that is a good point! You can work the tossing the leash aside as part of the engagement game. If he can offer engagement when you take the leash off, great! Reward that and then in the next session, put the leash on the ground when you take if off: can he still offer engaged (and get rewarded :))
For the line up games: try to do them in front of random object rather than a jump for now, so you can smooth out the process of position, where he is facing, etc.
>>A lot of position choice today I don’t really care but I’m trying not to give the Q for sit or down if he’s going to choose the position at the start line it’s a work in progress.
You can use a general line up cue (like at our side or between your feet) and then he can choose the position and you don’t need to say the down or sit cue.
>>Is it okay to shift him over he has his crazy habit of lining up at an angle.
Most dogs don’t like this at all, which is why I like the line up cues – I can put myself where the dog needs to be so that he can line up in the right position. So if he is at a bad angle, you can reward, release and reset in training so he doesn’t think he was wrong to go into the line up.
>>So I don’t think at least for now tugging the leash inside the ring probably wouldn’t be a problem but how do you get it back when they accidentally have it? >>
For my leash tuggers, I also train a really strong out verbal that does not rely on a cookie… for the exact reason you mention of not being able to trade for a treat in the ring. I train it by tugging then relaxing my tug hand… when he lets go of the leash, I sometimes use the leash as the reward for the out, and sometimes line up to start, or sometimes run over to a cookie station for a food reward.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I think you are exactly right about her being conditioned to work only for food when her breakfast bowl is out!
It is a conditioned response – Pavlov is more powerful than Skinner!
> So it very much simulates what we do at home in the mornings for her breakfast bowl. I think I mentioned that the cooler has worked really well to get her to stay in the game and do her weaves in the competition ring. My only issue with Char’s runs are that she seems stressed when we walk in the ring and she typically starts slow. I’d also like her to weave faster but that is a separate issue (I think). Should I try feeding her breakfast before the trial? She is a complicated girl!>>
Hmmm that is a good question. Does she eat anything in the morning at a trial? I would try feeding her a tiny bit just to help with blood sugars and brain function. Having a bit of food as fuel really helps our canine athletes. Doesn’t have to be a full meal, just a couple of bites to start the day off. See how it goes!
T
Hi!
>> So, do you think it is ok to play some of these games outside the ring, just like I would with my puppy to begin building value for them in the show environment? Tango is willing to do lots of things outside the ring that I can’t get inside the ring and I don’t think it will change her attitude about the new games being fun. However, I wanted to know your opinion so I don’t break down the process that we are trying to build on.>>
100% yes! Because of her history, we won’t make any major shifts in the next 2 trials 🙂 If she was a youngster, we would approach things differently.
>>Tango will run a whole run with the ball in my pocket, so should I trade off between that and building on the remote reinforcement?
Yes – but build the remote reinforcement slowly and in small pieces, as if she was a puppy. And develop that reward station that we are talking about, it gets really useful 🙂
>> Fortunately, we took your got remote class and she has a massive value for that relative to the treat and train, so I am just trying to really help her generalize that to any kind of remote reinforcement.
You can totally use the treat n train as the remote reinforcement. It can sit on a chair or table outside the ring, 15 feet away or so – it is really no different than leaving a bag or a jacket with a pocletful of treats.
>>With the ‘leash off’ game in class/training, how do decide when to move from treats in the pocket to asking for an obstacle and then treating and subsequently moving to remote re-inforcement? >>
With the goal of the off leash offered engagement being a conditioned response, I would not combine it with any other behaviors yet. Continue to reward engagement on a one-to-one ration for a while longer in training. At the trial, since you won’t have a cookie: take the leash off in a position where you can take off and run – because if she offers engagement, I want you to just take off and run and start the course, as that is likely the only available reinforcement in that moment 🙂
>>I am having to really try to figure out how to make sure she really has value for or has changed her attitude about something completely enough to move on. Any insight you might have is greatly appreciated.>>
Lots and lots of short high value reps, with the goal of shifting the conditioned response – and developing that remote reinforcement station to the point that she will run full courses with it out there.
>>Untraining and retraining is always more challenging that working with a young dog, at least for me.
For me, too. Training youngsters is often easier, because we have a blank slate.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I did an accidental marshmallow test when I left the room to move my 13-year-old border collie (who COULD NOT handle hearing me play tug with the puppy) away from a baby gate in the hall
That was HILARIOUS! And also amazing – he was such a good boy! Not surprising, though, as he really has a long track record of making great decisions.
The remote reinforcement is going really well. The simple walking away was easy and stimulating – maybe too repetitive because he did a little barking and popping up, perhaps indicating that he was stimulated and knew he was going to get to do something… but going back to the cookies did not actually count as doing something LOL! I am glad you went into the tricks/behaviors because he settled into a really lovely work mode when you did that and was lovely in his responses. Add in a couple more action tricks along with the positions and line ups, just to keep building the toolbox.
Having the other dogs barking in the background was an excellent distraction!!! The latency was higher when the Swissy was barking behind him (thanks for the distraction help!) and that is great – working through that in a close environment with reinforcement easily available will be super helpful for when he is in a trial environment and both the distraction and reinforcement will be further away.
Great job on these – you can also add longer sequences of ‘stuff’ like a trick, a line up, a release, trick, etc before going back to the reinforcement.
Tracy
Hi! Great job on these 3 games – she was VERY engaged here especially when we consider that all 3 games relied on HER offering engagement, and not you asking for it with excitement or motion. Yay!
Instant Focus
>> watching my video I see 2 missed opportunities to reward the early approximations of the target behavior. Oops, will do better next time!>>
Great first session here! Yes, that first paw lift can be rewarded. It is a hard game and she figured it out quickly! This went well – she took literally 6 seconds to assess the environment then get to work. You were great about NOT helping 🙂
Looks like she was happy to do the chill on the table and was also asking for more engagement too! The two of you were able to relax for a bit. That’s great!
Leash off game – does she often do a body shake when the leash is off like she did on the first one? Just curious – we will track it to see if it indicates anything. She didn’t do it on the other reps. She was very engaged – excellent! Now you can bring this game to the start line in training class!
>> I want to do a lot more of this including carrying her & setting her down,
Yes! Do both walking in with her on the ground, and carrying her in. You might find that she prefers one over the other. Either way, she will get lots of reinforcement for engagement.
>> but we are getting better at keeping it short!
Yes – these little bits of games were terrific!
>.I am dubious about Take a Breath, will give it a try tomorrow or Friday.
Dubious about it working, or dubious about being able to get the behavior? You’ll spend quality time staring at her little nose LOL and it really does work!
Great job!
TracyHi!
I think it is a situation-specific issue, not a toy issue:
At :50 when she wandered off, she was working for her breakfast bowl at that time, and I think she might be conditioned to work only for food when her breakfast bowl is out there. “MOM I THIS IS WHAT WE DO FOR BREAKFAST” hahaha But at a trial, toys are much more part of the norm. So try this when you are not working for a meal and when a food bowl is not nearby – I bet you see different results. You can also move the toy away from her to chase a bit rather than present it to her , that can be more reinforcing in that scenario as well! Let me know how it goes!
TracyHi!
Sorry about the rain but great job getting out for some training!>> Do u need him to look into my eyes for engagement or will just looking be sufficient.
He is little so looking at you like he did here was great! Looking up and not sniffing 🙂
>> Also do you want a verbal for the engagement?
Nope 🙂 It is something we want him to offer as a conditioned response to the leash coming off.
He was great here! Now take it to as many different places as you can! My only suggestion is to have the treats in your hands or pockets, but you can start to play these games without the treat skirt/pouches. The pouches are a massive visual indicator that reinforcement will be available, so as you train these games, start doing them without wearing the pockets.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> I appreciate having the opportunity to discuss these issues with someone who has thought about them so deeply.
I love to obsess on this stuff to figure out what helps the dogs!
>>>>So for the pattern games, then, do more of an up-and-down with treats placed on your shoes and not tossed away (which is something that can easily be done outside the ring).
>>Do you really get the treats to land on your shoes? They just bounce off on to the ground when I do it. I need little bowls on my shoes!>>I bend down and place them on my shoe. I am also not overly worried about a little cookie on the floor in the trial or training environment – I use non-crumbly treats so they aren’t scattering all over, and plus there are so many smells everywhere that the dogs are not going to track the one instance of odor in that environment. It is really not an issue to have the pattern games outside the ring.
>>> Then as I enter the training area, I will begin the pattern game.
>I am having a hard time envisioning this. You enter the building where the agility trial is and just start tossing treats on the ground? Or you do the snack version or hands version? Video of this IRL would be great to see, if you have any.>>I will get some from the flyball tournament this weekend. Basically, I walk with intent into the area (in this case, a gymnasium at a community center). As I pass the door which is both a literal and figurative threshold where distractions increase, I say a marker and present a cookie. It is usually get it, and then I drop a cookie on the ground where the dog can step to it. Bear in mind that he is on leash, so I don’t toss the treat too far away. You can also do the snack version or the shoe version for up-and-down. I prefer the get it or the up and down because it is so recognizable, the dog gets to move a bit, and it also offers the dog a chance to assess the environment really easily.
>> You replied: Are you seeing stress behaviors?
I didn’t see any on Tuesday, but I live in fear of grass grabbing because it means he is not having fun. And it’s supposed to be fun.
Yes, it is supposed to be fun… but grass eating is also feedback from him. So while we ideally don’t see any grass eating, living in fear of it can be paralyzing which will prevent the flow of feedback and slow the progress down.
On the video –
Leash off engagement was great at the beginning!
And he liked that toy. So let’s talk about reinforcement – as you know, the recipient decides on what is reinforcing or not.>>You will see in the video of the leash game that when I tried some personal play, he grabbed my sleeve (that’s not the norm for him) and I spoke to the camera and he dropped his head and grabbed some grass. 🤬 I was trying personal play because we can’t tug because of the previous dental issues.
He basically said that he doesn’t find the personal play to actually be play. I see that a LOT with dogs… that physical interaction is not perceived as play so you got sleeve biting and grass eating. Great feedback from him – so take that style of interaction off the table. Good to know 🙂 It is not reinforcing and does not engage him in a happy/relaxed way.
>> But sometimes when I do personal play he disengages because I am just too much, I think
I just think he doesn’t like it or find it playful. That style of play is something that some dog trainer somewhere decided is playful and fun and reinforcing, and then people put a name on it. And many many MANY dogs are like, “ummmmm……no.” LOL!!! Do we get interaction from the dogs when we do that? Yes, but as you saw – it is not playful, it is more of a frustration interaction. Icky! So there is just no need to interact like that. I think all 3 of my youngs dogs actually find it offensive. And I think if someone did it to me, I’d find it offensive as well. My Papillon likes it! So we do it. The others? Nope! They find it rude. LOL!
Looking at the video – he bit your sleeve (feedback) and then you kept going with it so he went to grass eating (BIGGER feedback).
On the video – you said it was too much play… but in fact, it was not play at all, according to the recipient.
Another way to look at it is to replace the words ‘personal play’ with ‘video games’ – my husband loves to play videos games. I would rather eat grass outside than play video games. LOL!! And if someone persisted in getting me to play video games, I would get all sorts of frustrated icky feelings. So the answer is that I don’t have to play video games, I can do other things 🙂
So in this leash off game, use what he likes: food, toys on a line, or the ball you mentioned. And use them by moving away from him – dogs much prefer that! You’ll find in those course that I don’t ask for that physical style of personal play at all because it doesn’t help us.
>>And I tried to put toys on long lines, but he just wants to run off with them and do a lap.
That can stay on the list of reinforcements, though, because it is reinforcing. Just don’t let go of the end of the line unless you don’t mind watching a lap.
>>food is not his biggest love.
Food is high enough in value for our purposes here, and you can go to shorter sessions with insanely high value food that stays in motion, either from your hands or in a lotus ball or treat hugger – I bet he won’t be sad about that at all LOL!
>> If you have any other ideas, I’m all ears. The flirt pole keeps him safe and relatively close and I am a little bit of the picture. I tend not to fling the toy around on the pole for safety reasons. I’ll use the lotus ball with a handle the next time I video and see if there is a difference. He tends to bring that back after he has eaten the treat.>>
These are all good ideas! I would just make everything more light in heart with less worry about what might go wrong. Let him chase the flirt pole or toy on a line. Incorporate the ball and the lotus ball, and use crazy delicious food. Keep the games moving away from him a little, so there is a little chase element, and not towards him. And take out the physical touching during play – he gives it 4 thumbs down LOL!
The barking on cue is adorable! And sneezing too! Yay! This will be a fun addition to the toolbox.
Thanks for posting the run!
>> I’m going to delete it once you have seen it because it’s so dreadful and I would like to forget it ever happened.
Keep it to look back on when he is a champion agility dog! He just wasn’t ready here. I am sure it felt pretty crappy at the time but you handled it well. It was great feedback from him and things will be different next time!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Ignore my pajamas lol!>>
Ha! Pajama training videos are a critical element of online training LOL
The table in front of her looked good!
Table behind her looked good too.She was offering the ready quite nicely and holding her stay really well. I am glad you did this with a tug toy, she is a little (a lot?) more excited with the toy but she was still terrific and offering her ‘ready’ position really nicely.
>>Her idea of bonding with me is attacking my shoelaces which happens 1002 times day lol!
Ah yes, my youngest dog does that too LOL!!
She did well with her chill here. Bending over is fine for a short time but your back might protest if you hold that position for too long. She seemed fine with being held, and she is small enough that it is definitely an option. She defniitely didn’t seem to hate it LOL! So you can do a few seconds of that here and there, with some cookies coming after it, to continue building the love for it.
>>I leave for nationals tomorrow and she gets to come along for the ride! Any ideas for games to play and things to do???
Have fun! I think you can take an ‘all of the above’ approach to the games – try little pieces of all of them! You can do them near the rings and also at the practice jump between classes. They are all intended to be played in the trial environment, so you can try to do a minute or so of each, spread out over the weekend.
Great job here! Have a fun weekend and good luck!
TracyHi!
>>>>Yes, that’s an issue I have with him as jumps are not his favorite obstacle. I can’t seem to keep my arms out of airplane mode but I think I’m so close to the jumps I try to avoid hitting the wing. I need some straps to hold them down.
High arms do block connection and turn shoulders away from the line, especially with smaller dogs. I use this method to keep my arms from flapping around 🙂
>>I have trouble getting distance with him so I run close to the jump and if they curve then I have to move away. If I redo I try to give more lateral space so my line is straight.
You can also use a lotus ball or something so he can get rewarded out away from you over the jumps. That can help build up more distance.
>>But he does run under the tire in class more often than taking it. I think the tire height is different since it’s set for USDAA in class and lower in the AKC run thru.
yes – I think the USDAA tire is 4 inches higher than the AKC tire. You can also do some clicker shaping and use the lotus ball tossed away as a reward on the other side.
>> I think my arm was pointing to the sky 😂.
OMG yes! Thanks for the zoom – I call it ‘giraffe handling’ when our arms get that high hahaha!!
I think more connection and thrown rewards will help him a lot on those lines.
>> Nice reset at 2:05!! That was a good way to get him back into the sequence.
Exactly. That’s where my trainer thought I treated too much 😁and she did have me retry so I thought it would be good.>>
I thought it worked well to get him back in a good mindset so you could get feedback then carry on, setting up a really strong finish!
>> What did you think of his focus and work during the class?
Great. Better than previous week and much better than normal for him, especially after he has run over the week end. Much quicker to look and return. The action tricks to start seem to make him happy.>>Perfect! Yay!!!
>>He’s been pretty tired when he comes home and didn’t chase the other dog like normal.
I’m betting his brain and body got a good workout 🙂
>>I have never tried the breathing game before. I need to work on my mechanics so he’s not trying to eat it right away.
The dogs do try to eat it right away if it is right in front of their noses 🙂 Have you tried the air scenting where you show it to him then lift it above his head? Or you can try the mimic approach, where you sniff it first. Strange but true – it works likea charm 🙂
>> At home, he’s focused when I take it off. But that is the point I loose him in trial. At the Feb run thru, he took off at the start and followed the leash as the person walked off with it.>>
For now, let’s focus on counterconditioning his impulse to take off when the leash comes off. You can start with a refresher session at home, then build up to having him offer engagement a few feet away from the rewards (not in your hands), We can add the leash off engagement into the remote reinforcer.
Then maybe we can bring it to class and have a classmate walk away with it, while you reward engagement? We can totally build it up 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
