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Good morning!
>> Oh, I thought that was the purpose of the no cookie pattern for waiting in line. Yes, he struggles being that close in line to other dogs and so close to the ring. Poor thing, he goes cold turkey with no food from the crate area all the way thru his run >>
Oops, I didn’t clarify it enough, sorry! The cookie-free pattern game is for moving between the ring gate and the start line, a pretty short stretch 🙂 Waiting in line can be FOREVER (in dog years) so I don’t want the dogs to be cold turkey in that time. It is kind of like boiling water – we want him to be close to boiling when he enters the ring. If he waits too long without anything to help, his ‘temperature’ will drop and he won’t be boiling anymore.
So waiting further away so you can still have some cookies helps, and the engaged chill TOTALLY helps! Will NADAC allow a mat or cot in the 10 feet from the ring? It is a good engaged chill spot as he is learning to chill without it.
>> Plus, I do double runs so it’s back to back with no time in between.
It there enough time to reward him, and ‘reheat’ him? Double runs are HARD, and even harder without enough time to reward (or to let the lactic acid dissipate in his muscles and let him catch his breath.
>>>Fortunately, the NADAC trials are small and Intro does not have many dogs so I barely have time to get him to the line after I walk.
This is definitely a challenge for small dog handlers! When my smalls are up first, I warm them up physically (potty and muscles) before the walk through, then I leave the walk through halfway through so I can get the proper mental warm up for the dog before the run. It is a little stinky for learning the course quickly, but good for my mental game to be prepared for the walk through!
>>I had tried picking him up which he does not like and facing away from the ring but his head was on a swivel. So I tried to hide him behind the wing fences in line and crouch down to give him a massage which was better. I hid behind a trash can at USDAA as they were not as strict on line up. He should be much happier with the new tools.>>
Oh yes! And the tools are legal in all venues – just a little further away from the ring in NADAC then getting through those last 10 feet pretty quickly.
>>Yes, I still plan to go on Saturday. I’ve never been to this place or run UKI so it will also give me a chance to watch. Unfortunately this week end will be quite hot for him as it will be in low 80s so that does affect his energy. Plus it sounds like it’s an open field with grass instead of a covered arena.
Yay for getting there early! And yes, the forecast is HOT!!!! So it will be a little harder – you can change your plan to make short, fast, fun blasts of energy.
On the video:
He was perfection! I love your setup with the gate, the chair, the jump… and he TOTALLY knew where the reward station was because he went around the other side of the gate to get to it when cued LOL!!
Looking at his focus and engagement – nice tricks outside the ring for the last cookies, and he was offering lovely engagement going into the ring. I love how he was offering a paw shake when you went to take the leash off.
Since you mentioned where the cookie-free pattern games would go – you entered the ring at :28 here. If he needed any help with the environment (if he appeared stressed or distracted) you would add the cookie-free pattern games as you stepped into the ring and headed to the line.
This is the behavior we want at trials, so now we begin to bring it into the trial environment. The FEO/NFC runs will totally help bridge the gap! And he will give us feedback this weekend about what he needs. Fingers crossed someone can videotape you, or you can also bring a tripod! Dogs generally are not as strong at trials as they are at home, so I generally expect them to be about 50% as good as they are at home. Either way, it will be great to see what he does and fingers crossed for good weather!!
Tracy
Good morning!
>I know she has to process them, but they aren’t deflating like someone yelling or sounding angry. If anyone gets mad at their dog around her, I know I will have a hard time helping her recover.
Interesting! But relatable… I get stressed by that too! Since it is hard to split that stressor or present it in small bits with live people, maybe we can find a TV show or YouTube link with loud voices or angry voices? That can allow you to introduce it at a low volume, literally, and control the Kryptonite level as you play the games.
>>>The click of the magnetic or spring loaded gates bothers her because one bumped her in the rear once and now they all bite. I’m just being a brat and leaving them open for someone else to close if it bothers them. My dog isn’t leaving the ring, so I am not worried about it.>>
Ha! You are not a brat at all 🙂 I do the same thing (maybe we are both brats? And people LOVE their closed gates – I have trouble with people leaving the gates alone in UKI and USDAA, where there are NO rules about gates. My favorite trial location? Zero ring gating at all 🙂
>>It can be a bridge if she is luke warm or better. If she is unhappy, she won’t play at all. So, if I take her in the ring and get her to do a few jumps and her demeanor is improving with each obstacle, the ball is a great reward. It is the whole thing of what to do on the start-line when the wheels are coming off the bus for whatever reason. When her tank is used up, it obviously takes a lot less for her to unravel than when she isn’t depleted.>>
I think getting some of those noises playing in the background and playing ball is a start, to at least strengthen it as a bridge. And on the start line, she might very well be one of the dogs that need to get off the start line as quickly as possible when you sense the wheels coming off – could be no stay and and immediate release, or holding her by the collar for a ready-set-go release (if she likes those) or a tiny short lead out with a volume dial-style lead out (more on that coming on Monday :))
>>I have always known that tight turns or technical starts are demotivating for her. So, we have a premier jumpers course on the field that I ran in Las Cruces a few weeks ago. Handler motion is minimal, which we know isn’t a good motivator for Tango.
Ugh, so true, and totally relatable!!!
>>>The obstacle spread is great with 21 or more feet between obstacles and the opening is two jumps that they have to slice to a right turn into a 20′ tunnel. Tango didn’t like it at the show and doesn’t like it here.
It is great news that she does NOT like it at home too, because it provides an excellent training opportunity!
>>The reason I bring that up, is that maybe I can use an FEO run to build value for an opening that turns back to the front of the ring and is more technical. With the reward station right outside the ring, we could do the normally demotivating thing and run for the exit and the cookies.>>
Yes – but after she is happier in general in the ring, rather than presenting her right away with things that are already not happy-making (<——- scientific term :)) So first step is make the ring super fun even with the harder distractions, then go to the poopy openings. And while you are doing that, work the poopy openings at home so she loves them a lot more. For me, the trialing should always lag behind the training. She is happy in the ring in general in training, so now we get the happy in the ring at trials. She is not yet fully happy at home with the poopy openings, so we get that first at home, then bring it to trials. >>UKI around here is hard. There was one on artificial turf outside, which is always a crap shoot around here as to whether the surface is too hot or too slippery. Everything else so far has been in NM. There will be one in Flagstaff, but am not sure about that one.>>
That is a bummer, it is an enjoyable venue both for FEO runs and for titling purposes. NM and Flagstaff are pretty far! It is an easy, inexpensive venue to host with good profits, if anyone wants to host one!
>>The USDAA runs are $14, so very affordable and if I work the shows some I can also defray the cost with doggie dollars. Next weekends judge is Megan Shepter who no one seems to know much about. I will ask her if I can throw the toy to Tango on my way out of the ring. Tango will bring it back either way, so I am not worried about her running off with it.>>
I haven’t heard of Megan Shepter! Fingers crossed for a wonderful experience!
>>As for reward games, spins don’t qualify in her book. Hitting my hand with her feet might. She was liking that this morning. I will see if I can watch to figure out what is motivating in happy kryptonite situations.
She definitely likes all the footsie games – shaping, smacking your hand, etc. That is good! Maybe she can smack/pounce on your foot? Those seem to consistently be her favorite.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Ok she’s been a lefty…..in the rear crosses, she was a righty.
She just likes to keep us guessing hahaha!
The session on the video looks great!
Nice blinds at the beginning! I think she really likes the action of the blinds and your connection looked great. She did really well on all the blinds!
>>she thinks they’re dumb if I just start her. If I get her revved up and play before, she was a lot quicker as I did after the 1st one earlier in the day.
That is a definite possibility! So keep playing before each one, rather than start cold. Also, connection plays a role in it – when you are more connected, she is wicked fast!
For example, the big race track at :35 looked awesome! and so did the other race tracks when you were trying to connect the whole time (this is NOT an easy thing to do!)I think you were more connected with her on your right, where she was crazy fast. She was also speedy on the left turn race tracks – you were not as connected on that side so she slows down when she doesn’t see the connection like at 1:42 and 2:17 – and is fast when she sees the connection
At 2:11, you can see her looking up at you on the left turn race track, slowing down a bit – in that moment you were looking ahead, which is a disconnection for a baby dog.
And when she is really running hard? You are looking at her while running.
But even the ‘slow’ moments have gotten a whole lot faster. Great job here!! Keep connecting and playing with her beforehand, and she will get even faster!
TracyHi! She looks great here, she is really getting the idea of the rear crosses!!!
The go lines looked really good too – you can say go sooner so she doesn’t look at you when she is exiting the tunnel – you can say it just before she enters the tunnel so she hears it nice and early, then say it a few more times so she comes blasting out looking totally straight.
The rear crosses are looking really strong. Youc an put a little more pressure on the RC line by getting closer to her line and moving across behind her as soon as she is passing you. It will be fun to see how early you can show the pressure and change side: she has gotten even faster recently so you can get right on her tail to get her to look away in the new diection before she takes off for the jump.
>> A little miscommunication when turning left on the first try, got better as we went along.
Yes, that was at 1:07 – you got too far up the line and had to stop to let her get past you, which made the RC info late. You had much better position and timing at 1:14 and got it there and on all the others. YAY!
Great job here! And she was also brilliant about ignoring the disractions. Super!!
TracyHi!
Got it, I think:
>> Entering from same side of the jump, say the right side, but in one instance dog is on your right side (so a regular backside push), in the other instance dog is on you left (between you and the jump) and you still want the backside from the right (so a threadle).>>
Yes, those are my 4 verbals:
2 for pushing to the backside (dog on my right in your example) – ‘back’ for slice and “dig’ wrap.
2 for the threadle side (when I am on the takeoff side, dog on my left in your example) – ‘close’ for slice and ‘in’ for wrap>>Would this be the same verbal for both options?
Nope – 4 different behaviors, 4 different verbals.
>>What if on the dog landing from the jump they need to turn to their right and go back across the plane of the jump? Is that a different verbal or maybe an additional one added to the first?>>
Coming back across the plane of the jump on the entry wing, or on the exit wing?
If it is the exit wing (opposite of the entry wing) then I use my slice cues: back for push slices, close for threadle slices.
If the do enters and exits on the same wing, I use my wrap cues: dig for push wraps and in for threadle wraps.
>>Wondering same if instead of exit to left wanted the 360deg wrap exit or exit back to the direction you came from, cause sometimes I am just not able to get on the ideal side with my crazy fast dogs (crazy fast compared to me at least).>>
That is why I use verbals that are relative to the wings – the 360s are enter and exit on the same wing, so those turns (and the super tight turns that are similar to them) get the wrap verbals.
>>Trying to figure out if I have the right verbals for all the options on one jump and don’t make up too many. I think I might have more than I need for some of this but oddly also might be missing some that I maybe should have.>>
Make your complete list! Then we will see what you need or don’t need, and we can add or delete some.
T
Hi!
>revisited our wind beneath your hair or whatever you call it
Wind in your hair, as in hair blowing back because you are running so fast 🙂 Although Wind Beneath Your Wings works too LOL!
On the video:
She is doing really well! You can have your start wing more centered or moved over more, so you can basically run straight past the jump and not have to peel away and show lateral motion or to avoid colliding with the wing. That made your connection a little harder after the start wing.As soon as she recognized that this was a drive ahead to the toy game, she was great! And she was still great in terms of driving ahead and looking ahead, even when the toy was not already placed out there. YAY!
One little detail – after a cookie reward, and before the wrap, make a cleaner transition into the start. Let her finish eating an look up at you – then you can gently take her collar, start the verbal… and then let go and step to the wing. That will set her up for success on all of them, and limit errors like at 2:05 where she was not quite ready, you sent and tried to leave and she was like “WAIT WHAT?” 🙂
When you turned the camera angle to the other direction on the video – this is a little better wing lineup, you could run straighter so it was easier for you to connect and set the line 🙂
Look at her bring the toy back!!! HAPPY DANCE!
Zig zags – the good news is that you can she can be on either side of the wing, all the variations are good 🙂 And the handling is not all that important – we are pretty much in get it done mode LOL!
Only one suggestion: Start her a little closer to the first wing, almost touching her shoulder to it, That will add some more challenge to that very first step.
Since she did so well, you can shorten the distance between wings – this looked to be 6 – 8 feet, approximately? You can try them at 5 feet apart to see if she can organize herself faster (and to see if you can do the handling faster :))
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Definitely not a train wreck at all! Easy fix for you:
Rather than face her to get her to come in, turn your feet to face the tunnel and move towards it (keep doing the strong upper body handling, that looked great).
What was happening was you were facing her and not moving, plus pretty far from the tunnel… so she came in and then thought it was toy time. In the moments when you face her, you will need to flip her back out to the tunnel with motion. But ideally you don’t face her, but rather you will be facing the tunnel entry you want – Try to have your feet turned to the tunnel (not facing her like a lap turn) so you can move towards the tunnel and she will find the entry on her own with your motion.
The foot position I am talking about is what you did at 2:19 when you were doing it without her – upper body cuing the ‘come in’ and feet facing/moving towards the tunnel.
The toy was indeed a little too exciting at first, so putting it on your pocket was smart! You can do the next session with food only so she has less excitement to look at, which givesy ou time to sort out your feet and motion.
She is very smart got it at 1:24 when you moved to the tunnel and leaned towards it a little. YAY! So you can see how effective the motion towards the correct tunnel entry will be.
Compare that to 1:58 and 2:15, for example when you were facing her and not moving towards the tunnel (and a couple of feet away) – she just came to you.
Start off nice and slowly, then I think as you both get the hang of the motion, you can add more and more speed 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
This is going well!
>> I think I need to be doing something different with my arms. I mean, he figured out what I was showing him, but it’s probably not ideal. “”
It is fine for now, my only suggestion is to do the arm motions faster 🙂 In future versions of this game, you will be serping along and moving the whole time, so the arm stuff here is not that important in the long run. What is important is his understanding of that kinda sideways, lead changing, slice jump – and he was great!
If you want to increase the challenge for him, you can shorten the distance between them by having the 2nd and 3rd wing touching the bar before it or even overlapping a little. That will require him to do the jumping coordination more quickly – which also means you should do your arms more quickly LOL!!
Great job here! And also it was smart training to reward the stays 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
I agree, he was a bit rusty at the beginning and was locked onto the tunnel entry like the original smiley face game 🙂
But then you got clearer with the wrap verbal on the wing, and he remembered that it is possible to take the other end of the tunnel – then he was really strong 🙂One thing to add to it is giving the wrap verbal and letting him finish the wrap almost entirely while you move away to the tunnel entry you want – then give your kiss kiss cue. The quality of the wrap on the wing will really help the tunnel discrimination. And remember to add in some GO TUNNEL lines too, to be sure he is processing and not just assuming that it is now all about the other side of the tunnel 🙂
>> The biggest was not walking towards the tunnel opening I wanted him to go into.>>>
Yes, good catch! He did really well when you did keep your feet moving towards the tunnel entry you wanted – at :51, for example, when you stopped, he was confused.
One other thing to consider: after the kiss kiss cue, you don’t need to also say ‘tunnel’ because the kiss kiss cue is also the cue to get into the tunnel 🙂 tunnel means ‘take the entry on your line; and kiss kiss means ‘go in the other side’ 🙂
Great job here! After one more successful session like this, you can add more motion 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>>Would be great if it is late May, then I should be able to work on a number of the things that I can’t in the basementLast day for videos is May 20th.
>>
So no differentiation based on the side of you the dog is on?>>
Do you mean a verbal for a backside push where the dog is on my left and slices to her right, and a separate backside push where the dog is on my right and slices to her left? Heck no – that would mean 8 separate verbals on just the backside. I just don’t think we need that right now, hopefully never! If my cues are good enough to get to the backside of the correct jump, I don’t need the additional layer of reminding her to slice to her right, for example – I have already told her if it is a slice or wrap so the bar will dictate which direction the turn is. There are some people out there doing it that way with the extra verbals but the dogs are reading it from handling and from the position of the bar. I remain unconvinced that the dog is actually trained to know the difference (and it makes no sense to the dog to slice the other way on a backside jump because the bar indicates the direction, so the extra verbals are redundant).
She is doing well on the wrap versus tunnel game!!!
She had a little trouble with the tunnel at the beginning, so you warm her up with the tunnel without the wing wrap – just send her into the tunnel to kind of ‘wake up’ the value of it in this context.
The main thing I think will help as the wing gets closer (and as you either add more movement or fade it out – do both on this game :)) is to start the verbal before you let go of her, saying it 3 or 4 or 5 times and THEN let go of her collar. That adds an extra layer of processing for her -when all the info comes at once (verbal, motion, letting go of her collar in the same instant), she is processing motion and verbal in the same moment and that can lead to the errors. That way, while still holding her, she can hear the difference between the verbals before processing the motion.
But overall, she is looking great! You can add in the double whammy element of sending her to the tunnel then moving into the wrap too!
Great job 🙂
TracyWhoa! Look at Zippie doing her pops! Love it! It was really good to be able to then reward off leash offered engagement with a treat after that (and the sequences, of course) – it is a good way to add these in without going cold turkey on reinforcement. And then on the 2nd rep, where there was a dog in a down right nearby – VERY nice!
Remember to not keep cuing it – let her look away if she needs to, and wait for her to offer re-engaging before the next pop cue.
So far, I am LOVING this!
>>I did remember to play higher energy Volume Dial (does anyone ever call them VD games?)
Great job remembering to play them! She looks really good here, very engaged! And no one calls them VD because it makes me think of either Valentines Day or venereal disease LOL!
>>I also had time to set down our cookies container (lid on) and do some VD and feed from hand, but that’s not really “kryptonite” if she sees me put it there…she did great, more value for working and food from hands.>
It might not be pure kryptonite but it is NOT easy 🙂 And it is part of what she will see at trials, so it is useful to do that.
>>We have a CPE trial Friday afternoon, we should talk FEO. I can run with a toy, and she will chase it a bit but it’s not a big “reward.” Do you want me to break it out and run to the exit right after the line up or after a few obstacles? Or after a difficult section? (I don’t plan to have any difficult handling but sometimes things don’t go per plan). >>
If she will be interested in it and will chase you and then you run out to the cookies – then the toy can serve as a bridge/secondary reinforcement as you then run out to the primary reinforcement.
And I think running out after a short, fast burst of obstacles will be ideal – toy in hand, get a fast speed line, be done. Wheeee! Don’t ask for anything difficult, don’t even go near anything difficult 🙂
>Our first event is akin to Beg Speedstakes, nice and flowy I expect.
Perfect! Pick a fast & fun section for FEO. And resist any little voices in your head that might try for a Q 🙂
>>Wildcard is a 9-10 obstacle course with modest discriminations,
Make the discrims easy and if she ends up on the wrong one? Pretend it was right and keep running 🙂
>>Snooker is last. As I’m FEO-ing, I don’t think I have to follow snooker rules and will avoid funky handling.>>
Great! Make a very flowy course out of it.
>>My gut says I don’t want to restart after a reward break, since the toy isn’t really much of a reward, but I could give it a try on the last run of the day?
I agree, I think your gut it correct – the toy is more of a bridge than a primary reinforcement. You can extend the number of obstacles before the reinforcement, potentially, but I don’t see a reason to present it and NOT have it be the bridge to the primary.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>.(and even greeting an invisible leash runner which Ripley didn’t care about (but Mighty Mouse thought I was crazy).>>
I must admit that I am glad to know that I am not the only one who greets the invisible leash runner when practicing. I mean, MM is not wrong to think you are nuts, but we are all nuts in that way hahahaha!!! I swear that MM was looking for the leash runner. SO FUNNY!
Ripley was amazing here – you were splitting the behaviors brilliantly and he was highly successful.
He cracked me up at 1:06 when he offered a very relaxed down – I was just thinking that maybe it was too easy for him at that point, and that was when he went into the hip roll down LOL!
The initial c/t for engagement when you were moving your hand to the leash/collar area in that first minute was really great! I already knew he would be a great agility dog, but now I have added obedience to that – he would be amazing in obedience with that prolonged attention like that. You can move into the higher levels more quickly, I think he only needed 4 or 5 reps and then you can add a little spice – the other dogs, moving the leash more, etc.
And in the other environments (like weekend trials), you can ask folks to move around while you play these early c/t stages. And if he is fine with that, you can do it near enough to the ring that he will get ocmfy ignoring other dogs (and also far enough from the ring that he will be comfy ignoring dogs :))
He continued to be brilliant when the other dogs got involved – MM sitting in front and the Swissy providing the musical accompaniment in the background. It made the game a little harder because Ripley really wanted to look at MM – it was really hard to NOT look at Mighty Mouse!! That is good for future planning, such as MM on a mat or platform, then MM chewing a bone or running around with a toy, and so on – practicing trial envionment things at home!
The leash off and on, and leash tossing was all good – Ripley took a heartbeat to look at the leash toss but immediately returned to engagement. Perfect!!
If you want to add tugging on his leash as part of this game, feel free to put it in so you can get it on stimulus control and use it for remote reinforcement as well. And, you can use a toy as th reward instead of cookies, which will change the state of arousal for sure!
It looks like he will be 15 months on May 18th? Is there UKI in your area? You can do NFC in UKI at 15 months at a lower jump height (like he can do 12″ NFC, you just need the trial secretary to adjust it in the computer). I mention it not because I really think any 15 month old dog should be running for real, but because he is mature enough and strong enough with the games that you can enter a class at a super low height for NFC, and do some leash on, leash off, tricks/toys games with the added element of moving into the ring. UKI is super baby-dog, user-friendly like this.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> So this whole breathing thing. I am pretty convinced you made it up. I won’t be taking further questions at this time. Thanks
Ha! I swear, it is the real deal. Dr. Karen Overall is the person to google search:
https://www.dacvb.org/members/?id=57319655
And Leslie McDevitt brought it into the dog training world in a more accessible way.
And he was TOTALLY doing it in the video! You can see it after the first Chex huff moment: note how he closed his mouth and TOOK A BREATH. Score! It is good for both of you 🙂
And yes, I too would be eating all the Chex mix LOL!!
>> But really. So because we struggled so much to find ourselves early in life, I did a ton of trick shaping with the red one. We love it. It’s our jam. I love shaping tricks. He gets really fucking happy for it.>>
The tricks are GREAT and very useful! He clearly thinks heeling is the coolest trick, so keep playing with it 🙂
>>We are out here cold. It’s 75 degrees and he starts open mouth panting super quick. I can’t appreciate his calming deep breaths when he’s panting!>>
Just a sign of arousal increase in the training environment. Rate of respiration increases! So the take a breath game gets more important to work canine mindfulness 🙂
>>Here’s me eating snacks, huffing Chex mix and moving a shoe. Maybe dog training?>>
The take a breath moments are looking good! Do a short session here and there… and then when you want to work the instant focus, break out of the other game, take a break, and reset for instant focus. Going directly into it was a little confusing for him, about where to look: at the shoe? The mom and the Chex? So for instant focus, you can be standing and holding treats, just like a trick training session. And when the shoe is magnetic, take it to step 2 🙂
Now I am hungry for some cereal for breakfast 🙂 Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>> But that’s what we’ll try next with a lesser toy and work our way up to the “APDB”. >>
This might take two sessions or 100 sessions 🙂 It doesn’t matter how long it takes, because it is important learning 🙂
>>How important is it for the treats/toy to be naked and free for the stealing in my reward chair? For our purpose it’s still ok for them to be in jars?>>
It is important that she is successful, so having them in bags or jars for now is perfectly fine 🙂
>>There’s an agility buddy I will ask to be my first person. She is in class with us and we recently shared a VRBO. So Posh is used to her, likes her, but isn’t used to her in our backyard. She can be our leash runner. Ha!>>
Perfect! Happy Kryptonite!
>>So here’s something I’ve discovered about Posh and her toy possessiveness. If she tugs with a toy, she is more possessive of it than if we just play fetch, no matter the value of the toy. So, if we do a sequence and I reward her by holding out the toy for her to run, grab, and tug, she has more trouble letting it go (possibly hanging on my arm with her paw or jumping repeatedly at me to grab it back) for our next sequence, than if I throw the same toy for reward and we play fetch. Weird? Normal?>>
Normal! As the arousal gets higher, the body chemistry of the dogs will change – and we often see the dogs struggling to let go of the toy. It is simply a barometer of how high her arousal is – in those moments, note it and bring her back to a more centered state with cookie tricks in between toy play moments. We are always looking for that optimal state of arousal 🙂
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
