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Hi!
>>I hope my description of what we’ve been struggling with makes sense.
Absolutely! Reinforcement is tricky. She is able to do non-agility behavior in the presence of a toy, probably because it is lower arousal and a different reinforcement history. The agility will follow with more practice but for now, what if you have a small toy tucked I’m a pocket? Or tasty cookies? We don’t need them to be precisuon rewards, so they can be in your pocket or tucked into your waistband – easily accessible but not visible? That might be a good way to bridge the gap. Let me know what you think!
TracyYay! Super fun that you got to watch and play!!!
On the first game – I think she comes out of that tunnel faster than you think so you were a little late for the first few reps 🙂 A :25, the timing was getting earlier and earlier, which is good! At :25, you were rotating as she was passing your leg: perfect for when you are moving into the wing!
The same thing happened on the other side -the first 2 reps were a little late and then you started nailing it. I think you were earlier on the spins, because you had to be earlier in order to get to the BC part of it. You might have been trying to get rotated to do a throw back, which was slow you down – you don’t need to think of these as a throwback or even indicate the wing with your outside arm for the spins: the acceleration/deceleration is what commits her, so the rotation is mainly about you getting outta there for the FC and the spins 🙂
I agree, her commitment looks great so you can keep playing with seeing how early you can commit and leave 🙂
Game 2 looked good too! Did you see the part in the live class where we had a couple of the handlers show the reward across the body, to push the dog-side arm back and out of the way on the blind exit to get better connection? That is going to be helpful with her too, and it will keep your wings in even more 🙂 I liked your timing at :12 and you had very clear connection from the WINGS IN! Yay!
One thing you were doing was getting a little ahead and then instead of deceling or starting the blind… you were giving her a big send to the wing (:33, for example). That sends her long and delays the info. The moving into it and deceling into the turn will set up the tightest blinds.On the FC exit after wrapping the middle wing, you can go back to the entry of the tunnel that was the same as #1 – that adds more countermotion. She had a little trouble with the left turns on the center wrap, so you can slow down your motion on that to strengthen the wraps in that direction (no trouble to the right)
Great job here! Glad you got to play with it today!
TracyHi!
Seq 3:
Try a send-and-go on jump 1. Doing a spin on 1 actually makes you late for 2-3, so try to send & leave. She turns really well, so doesn’t need the spin. That was part of why the bar came down at :16 – a little late with the connection and cues on the way to the tunnel, so she was trying to adjust.For the backside at 3: yes, definitely do this on a lower bar – she is making a few errors (like running around the jump at :43) which indicate that this is too hard at full height. And she gets it with handling help like decel or an arm cue, but we want to train independence so the lower bar is the start to that – make it easier so she can be independent and successful. You can see it at 1:40 too when she ran right past it when you tried to leave. So, this skill needs to move into the 2nd failure rule – she failed more than twice, so you need to break it down – you helped her on the last rep by staying there and indicating it, but for now to build the skill, lower the bar and drop the toy behind you on all the reps.
Full sequence:
The wrap 3-4 looked good with the spin! You did a post turn at 1:33, it was wider than the spin line. It might be tighter if you send and leave instead of round the line with her but I think the spin is probably the best choice there.
She did not get the backside at 6 the first time through… the verbal was good but the physical cue did not support it (you were facing the front of the jump). Rather than tell her uh oh and stop, just keep going to build confidence and team work, and fix it on the next rep with a stronger physical cue to support the verbal like you did at 1;20 and especially at 1:40 and 1:56!!! 🙂 That was SUPER nice – on time lifting off for 5) and very clear.Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
A couple of ideas for you on this one:
>>I’m not sure where the twist verbal really needs to be for her.
She was going to the backside nicely, so you can keep moving across the wing to the exit wing – when she is approaching takeoff and you are near the exit wing, you can be cueing the twist to turn her away. You were turning away from the bar too much, which made the twist really hard because she was reading the line back towards 1 based on motion.
Definitely work the default bar on the backside because she flicked away from it and into the tunnel a few times. That default understanding (more below) will make the twist timing easier because you can trust she will take the jump automatically.
Seq 2: this is a great skill for her! Totally hat she needs! Lower the bars so she doesn’t do the backside jump at full height, it is too difficult to get commitment and drop the toy at full height. Put it at 12” so you can drop the toy and keep moving, making it really easy for her. When it is easy at 12, we can start raising the bar – but be sure that you don’t help with handling 🙂 We want to create a really independent behavior, so that placement of reinforcement (early and often!) will help get it.
Nice work! Onwards to sequence 3!
Hi!
>>I liked the way the teamwork started to feel between us, but I don’t know if I would have the guts to try this handling at a trial.
At a trial, throw caution to the wind and handle aggressively!
On the video:
Bearing in mind that tunnel cues are relative to the line you set, you were a little too early moving to the layering – she was not yet looking at the line to the tunnel. More motion and a directional will help there. But also make sure you walk the lines of the actual course build, not the map – the tunnel here was not on the straight line, it was a right turn away, which is why she was having trouble finding it even on the 2nd rep when you went in closer.The layering on the 6-7-8 line worked well! And then the bind was hard, but you can flip her away to the tunnel like we did in the live class 🙂
Nice blind on the 10-11 line! She needs a bit of a ‘left’ cue and maybe a little brake arm to get a tighter turn to the backside there.
The timing of the backside verbal for 14 was good at :46, but the physical cue was not as clear – you turned forward and then got quiet so she ended up on the front side of the bar. Your physical cue was MUCH clearer at 1:11 and she got it beautifully 🙂
That 17 tunnel is also offset, not a straight line from 15-16, so she probably needs and out cue to get it if you are not close to the line. Brings rewards with you, so you can reward in the moment when she finds a line that is correct even if it is not what you wanted 🙂 It looks like you used the out arm but not the out verbal at 1:15 and exaggerated it even more at 1:23 and she got it 🙂 lovely blind on the ending line!!
So definitely keep up with the early cues, and make sure you walk the lines of the course build to see if it differs from the map, so you can handle the lines differently if needed.
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
>>You may notice we get a couple of these skills on the first time, but when I try to repeat it and “improve” things, it tends to backfire. I feel like we start second-guessing each other on timing/position. You’ll notice this, especially on the 2nd exercise and I bailed on the third when it started down that slippery slope again.
Yes, it is possible that she sees the repetition as a cue to offer something different. So if you have only small changes to make, you should do a different sequence and then come back to the one you wanted to tweak a little. If it is a MASSIVE change, you can do it immediately because the cues will look very different. If the cues are relatively the same, she might start 2nd guessing. This is especially true if she is not getting rewarded (like at :37 where she got stopped and petted, not rewarded). The video cutoff after each error so I couldn’t see if you were rewarding after stopping – ideally, you either reward her or just keep going, so she doesn’t perceive it as an error. Have a reward with you in your pocket, in case you have to stop and then you can reward her right there in the moment.
I think there were enough variations in the cues and timing here that she was not guessing, but actually responding to your cues correctly. So, before repeating it – re-walk the sequence to be absolutely sure of what you want to do differently and when to do it (and to repeat what went well).
On the video:
The first sequence looks good, in terms of timing, connection, etc. She had a little trouble finding the straight line 1-2-3 but it might be that the distances were a little tight for full height and the tunnel entry is definitely offset from the straight line from 2.Seq 2: The timing of the right verbal and physical cue was good on the first rep! So… keep moving 🙂 When you were standing still at :18, she almost came off the line. Looking at the 3 reps – the first 2 had the same timing of ending her to the tunnel, but the 3rd one you turned off the tunnel cue sooner (and it was generally quieter) and started to decel and turn before she took off for 2… so she didn’t go to the tunnel (she was correct)
On the reps where she did not turn on the tunnel exit, you were good with the verbal timing but your shoulders were facing the Go line when she exited the tunnel.
At :46, your shoulders turned forward to the tunnel exit she ended up driving to. You were much clearer on the cues for the last rep and she got it.Seq 3 also looked good – your verbal right for 4 was good but you will get a better turn if you turn your shoulders sooner (just after she exits the tunnel) and then send and leave or 5. On th first rep, you drop her nicely to 6! O the 2nd rep at 1:19 you were saying tunnel but you had turned away completely, so she followed your line (correctly). You can be moving away, but you will want to leave your shoulders open to her so that she can stay on her line. On the re-start at 1:26, you turned your shoulders away from the tunnel entry and started the right verbal too soon, so she came off the tunnel entry you wanted – the right verbal doesn’t need to start til she is locked onto the tunnel entry you want.
Seq 4 looked really good! You were well-connected and timely with all of your cues there! YAY!!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyI can totally relate to the trust part being hard! The best thing that I see with Moose it that he is 100% invested in doing what you say which is a good reason to trust him LOL!!!! Not all dogs are like that, but he totally is 🙂
Hi!
Lot of excellent work here!!>>The course was also set up in a large field and we kind of use the entire space, maybe be good may not be good, ha!!
I think it is great to use the big field!!!! It makes it more like a trial 🙂
>>my knee is still not 100%, you’ll see me limping towards the end
and my stride has also changed, it is very short and I am still favoring my right knee.>>I am sorry to hear you are in pain 🙁 We will emphasize verbals skills, distance work, and layering in coming weeks so that you do not have to rely on running hard. That way we can protect your knee for running and you can still have great course runs!
Some ideas for you:
Run 1:
Opening:
Opening can be done as a threadle (standing in threadle position at 2) or moving into a BC. Both of these options will move you up the line nicely, show him the line nicely, and save your knees! Rotation is hard on knees. Since he is well-trained with his verbals, I bet the threadle is the best option because you can already be in position and head directly to the next line. You ran into the blind on the 2nd run and it looked lovely!The left verbal on the tunnel at :07 might have been a bit early because it started before he went in, it is possible that he should have turned left on the tunnel exit. Your motion supported the line to 6 so he did not turn.
It looked like you did a FC 6-7 at :10 and definitely did one at 1:01 – I think a BC is a better option because you can do it sooner (no need to decel into rotation) and because it is easier on the knees.
And to get to that BC – you can play with sending to 3 and layering: while your verbals and connection support 4, you layer the purple jump can go directly to the 6-7 line. Basically, but the time he is looking at 3, your upper body and verbals can be telling him about 3-4-5 but your lower body can be moving away to get into position 6-7 for the blind. He reads blinds beautifully, so I am not worried about the off course tunnel potential – if you are somewhat on time, he will not look at the tunnel.
Middle section:
I think he fell or something in the #8 tunnel at :15, there was a lot of noise and it took him a while to get out of it. That threw of your timing but you still go the blind 10-11. YAY!
On the 2nd run, I think you were helping more than he needed: at 1:05 you stopped and rotated to him a little on the way to the 8 tunnel, which stopped your motion and then you had to rush – that contributed to the bar down at 9, along with the name calls and outside arm – he was on his way to 10 very nicely, so you didn’t need to help there – just run for the blind. Definitely trust him on that whole section 7-8-9-10 he was great!
On that 11 turn, your lateral motion was really good but you can also use a left verbal (starting when he lands from 10() to get a better turn on 11, then use the backside verbal for 12.
At :25, he took the front of 14 when you wanted the back. Two reasons for this: the verbal cue was late, you said jump as he was lifting off at 13 when you can already be giving the backside cues – the backside verbal came when he landing from 13, but your shoulders were turned forward so that late verbal plus the turned shoulders pulled him to the front. Note the difference in your timing of the cue at :33 and also at 1:14 – as he was taking off for 13, you were already saying the back verbal AND your shoulders were showing that line. Perfect! Yes, the a-frame there made it a bit busy but the timing was good 🙂
The 16-17 line and thee verbal before the tunnel #17 was great! I think you used left the first time but Iz the 2nd time, and the Iz is the correct one, yes? He turned really well! couldn’t see you as well there when he exited on the first run but I think you did a FC there on landing of 18 -and you definitely did a FC on the 2nd run – a BC would be faster and easier there. It can be a serp to blind if you feel he was not coming in over 18 that well, but that is still easier and faster than the FC.
Course 2:
>>Second and last, the second course (black circles), was very hard for me to remember. I need to be more diligent at feeling confident with the course before I run it. I felt a bit rushed and I did not have a good handle of the course. So it is in pieces.You can plan for more walk through time before running it – try to get to the point where you can jog it successfully all the way through… then try it with Grizzly 🙂
When you did gt it going, it looked lovely!
On the Opening, you were able to send, cue, and keep moving. NICE! And on the tunnel discrimination, he got that really nicely at 1:58 and 2:25 – you probably don’t have time to praise him for that before giving the next info, the praise there makes the info late especially because he can’t see you in the tunnel.At 2:05 he did not get the left and the tunnel threadle, probably because you were facing straight and not turned (or he know it was the wrong course LOL!) He got it beautifully at 2:55 because you were fully turned and a cueing earlier (it was 2 strides from takeoff and that really helped) – that turn to face the line made a big difference for him!
The wrap back to the tunnel looked great at 2:46!Interesting that he didn’t get the in in jump threadle at 2:32 even with the rotated feet. It was late, but not *that* late LOL!! But you did it MUCH earlier at 2:36 and that totally helped him. He was about 2 strides from takeoff there and that is a good early timing for him on the threadle.
The ending line looked really nice, because he has independent tunnel commitment and turns, you were able to get way down the line for the backside. NICE! He was a little wide on the exit of the backside wrap – you hd a lot of acceleration and pulled to your left at 3:00, so he didn’t know it was a wrap til after he was approaching it at 3:01. To work the wrap line, drive straight down to the backside wing (where. The wing meets the bar) and decelerate for a heartbeat… then accelerate again when he passes you. That should get all the speed and a nice tight turn.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyThank you for all the videos, I will obsess on them on a bigger screen this afternoon when the puppy class is over 🙂 But some quick thoughts – there is nothing that made me too worried here (sometimes there are some really worrisome things with jumping!). Some of the bars were timing blips, just late timing so she tried to adjust over the bar. The fall moment (I think you were referring to where she fell on her head on that clip?) was a late timing moment too. The early takeoff spot at the end of the first video was partially caused by a sudden shift into acceleration and excitement from you 🙂 and her not understanding how to get her hind end into a powerful organization for liftoff when things are REALLY exciting 🙂 That involves hind end organization, core strength, etc – what is her current conditioning program? Are you doing any grids with her? I will pull up some videos of what we have added to the jump grids recently, to specifically work on the hind end organization at top speed so the dogs jump from their hind rather than try to do it all fro their front end. And what was going on with the tweaked pelvis, was she sore?
More later!!
TracyHi again!
>>We are doing a jump class with a jumping guru so hopefully will see improvement in skills.>>
Awesome! Which class is it?
O n the sequence:
A bit of a disconnection from 4 to 5 – when he was behind you, you pointed forward so it totally looked like a blind cross, good boy 🙂 Yo can probably turn sooner not he 4-5 line too, but stay connected. His turn was good at 12 inches but when the bar goes up you will probably need to start turning when he lands from 3, so he can adjust his takeoff for 4.
Yes, the bar down was definitely handler error 🙂 no problem rewarding it. What happened was when he landed from 8, you slammed into decel AND rotated all at once, so he turned back to 8. In that moment, rather than send him to 9 from an awkward angle (which is why the bar fell), you can keep going back to 10-11 and then reward, then start over.
Your timing was definitely better there on the next rep – decelerating as he was over 8 and landing from 9. But I think he will need to see it sooner. So as he goes into the 7 tunnel, run like mad towards 9 – but as soon as he is lifting off for 8, start your decel and wrap cues. Keep your transition like it was here, you were very smoooooth into the decel and then rotated, so he read it well. I think the earlier decel will also help him NOT take off so early for 8. The bar at :46 was also a bit of handler error – you were asking for acceleration and turned your shoulders away/broke connection so he had some questions and couldn’t quite get organized for jumping. Is the jumping class going to cover hind end power/organization at top speed? That is where he was having trouble (most dogs struggle with that!)
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
This is a great camera angle! I totally see the difference with where he was looking between the 1 and 2nd rep. On the first rep, you were a little later in your movement towards the last jump as he was committing to the tunnel. On the 2nd rep, you exploded to the last jump, so he was definitely looking straighter! He still had a tiny head check, so for go lines, you can place the reward out on the line so he gets used to looking straight when you are yelling go go go and running 🙂
On the 2nd video – I don’t mind the stride forward out of the tunnel the first time, because he was turning when he exited. The extra stride is him saying “where did you go?” Because you got quiet 🙂 so when you turn and leave, keep calling him so he can know where to look when he exits. He knew where you were on the 2nd rep, so we did not see him asking where you were. Both reps were lovely with verbals, connection, and timing of the turn cue on the tunnel! YAY!
Onwards to the next sequence!
Tracy
Onwards to standard! You’ve been busy!
First video: (and 2nd video, it is a duplicate) he had trouble finding the #3 jump, mainly because your running line was forward – then when he had 2, you accelerated and moved your arm forward, so he thought it was a straight line – you can try adding a bit of a pull away, and a turn verbal on 2 to help him out – I think you had a verbal but it was hard to hear it.
Was the 2nd link here the fuller run of this course? The next video is the next course.
Std 2: nice opening! You were crisp in your lead out – I agree that he likes when you move with intent to your lead out position, the jogging to the lead out was great! And well done getting the BC before the teeter 🙂
On the 2nd video, you changed his line up position and did more of a FC 1-2 and sent to 3. That worked well too! I think the BC to the teeter you did on the previous clip was clearer for him, flipping him away to it caused him to look at you before he turned.
Nice send to the 7 tunnel so you could layer the jumps and get ahead of him off the dog walk to the backside! YEAH! Worked like a charm!
When you started over – I liked his line up position and I LOVED your blind on the takeoff side of 3 – that was perfect and the best choice.
Does he had teeter worries? He was fine on the previous runs but definitely did NOT want to do it here. Or as there a different distraction? Your handling was clear so it is something about the teeter, perhaps? Then the video ended so I couldn’t see what was next 🙂
Really lovely work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Jumpers 1: This is a going well! A few ideas for you:
First video: he broke his stay and then was a bit worried… How much lead out do you have a trial? If he normally has a long lead out, that is great to use here. If he normally has a very short lead out, only use a short lead out in training too 🙂
The opening line looked great! The threadle 1-2-3 looked really clear and he easily found the line 3-4-5. You stopped at 6, but I think you can keep moving and get a blind cross there or a rear cross.
2nd video – I like your idea of handling from. The landing side of 7, as a serp! To get there when running the whole course, you can send to the tunnel and layer the jumps in the way, rather than running around them (we will be working more on layering soon :)) And to get him to come in on the jump, you can open your shoulders more, facing your shoulders to the jump and making eye contact with him.
It CRACKED ME UP when you were both talking about me being louder – YES! More verbals to help support the line LOL! That worked REALLY well and you also handled earlier and more clearly, getting the serp and flipping him away to the tunnel at :34. NICE!!! Then you were miles ahead for the next line, which is a REALLY good place to be 🙂
3rd video: Putting it all together 🙂 This went really well! The opening line looked great again 🙂 You were not quite as loud in the 5-6-7-8 section as you were in the previous video so he lost a bit if focus at 6 – but then your handling was very clear so he found the line. Try to combine that clear handling with the very loud verbals when he needs to stay on a line away from you – he seems to really respond well to that approach!
And being able to flip way to the tunnel got you WAY ahead, so you nailed the blind AND both of the backsides at 12 and 14. Fabulous!
As he is exiting the 15 tunnel, get those loud go go go verbals going and get more connection – you were a bit quieter (you said “over tunnel”) and you were looking forward a bit so he did not find the 17 tunnel.Very nice ending line!
So overall – that combination of connection and high powered verbals really gets him to drive lines away from you, so you can then get to where you need to be for the harder parts of the course. WELL DONE!!!
TracyGood morning! The videos are working, yay!!
Sequence 1 is looking good! The only suggestion is to add a GO verbal before he enter the tunnel and then keep saying it to support the line to the next jump. He hesitated a little because you were quiet and he can’t see you in the tunnel 🙂
Sequence 2 had just the right amount of verbal and physical cues: you called him before he went into the tunnel then kept calling him while you kept moving: perfect! He seemed tp have no questions at all.
Seq 3: Also super nice! Yes, there was a weird noise when he was on the start line but once he got started – it was really strong! I think you might have kept saying ‘tunnel’ instead of the come cue before the tunnel, so be sure to give the turn cue there instead of a forward cue. He say you turn, though, before he went in, so he turned nicely on the exit. I think you can push him more in that pinwheel – send him away to jump 5 then stay connected, use your jump and go verbals… but get outta there 🙂 The more ahead we can get you, the easier handling is and pinwheels are a great place to get ahead!
Seq 4: He also did well here! This is the hardest one in terms of timing, connection, etc. On the opening line, as he is landing from 3, you can be starting your here cue and shoulder turn – you did it right before takeoff, so he was already jumping straight. Started when he is landing from 3 will get a better turn.
He ended up on the wrong side of you at :20, but he was reading the cues correctly: as he was jumping 8, you bleed his name (so he looked at you) and then you pointed forward, ahead of him, to the wrap jump. From behind, that looked exactly like the beginning of a blind cross, because your connection was changing and your shoulders were changing. So he correctly did a blind, good boy! In that moment, when something like that happens – go with the flow and keep going then reward 🙂 He was correct then he got worried when you stopped. And then you can start at the beginning of the sequence or earlier, and get better connection to show it to him. The FC at the end will work perfectly there but the video ended before it.Nice work here! I will be in and out of the forum because of a live teaching commitment, so I will be back soon with feedback on your course work 🙂
Tracy
