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As you start a session, watch where he is looking: you brought him out to the tunnel with high energy, but he was looking away (lawn mower in the distance?) so he was not quite ready. So do more high energy tricks and give him a ready for each one. And then stand still for a moment… if he is looking at you, he is ready to do a sequence. If he is looking away? Not ready, try more engagement games and tricks. And of the whole session is about tricks and engagement? Perfect! That is harder than sequences and engagement makes handling easier.
The oopsies on the first rep were because he was not quite ready, good job staying in motion as that helps get engagement too. He was more ready on the 2nd rep, and did well! Your blind cross put you right at the wrong end of the tunnel, so that is where he went. You were clearer with connections on the next reps so he got it, but he sure to not run to the exit of the tunnel on the blind – run to the entry 🙂
On the teeter: I think it was smart to start him on it and just have him put his back feet on it then front feet. That really jump started the game for him! And he was really looking for the board with his back feet, good boy! Keep going like this, same amount of tip for now, until he happily backs up to a 4on position.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I really hope I’m not giving up, sure doesn’t feel like it, just trying to figure out how to keep him engaged and right now that’s food, food, and more food. I had these struggles with the other two, food was the only thing that worked . . . 4 years later I can use a tug toy with them if I never bring out the food, which is probably why I default to food, lol, it worked, ugh.
It is no a matter of giving up, it is a matter of not skipping steps and expanding the toolbox of reinforcement that you can use, and applying it. If we skip this step, yes he can learn agility for food from your hands, but it will limit how and which skills can be taught.
—Maybe I can put the teeter on its side?
That’s a good idea! And block it off a bit with some extra wings.
—-I am going back out tonight with his favorite tug toy and play first to get him really amped then move to equipment. I may also try the frisbee, he loves to chase it, but again, I’m not involved so that won’t work.—
Let’s just get him playing in that environment and then quit before trying more. A frisbee can work if he retrieves it because it is high value and many dogs also tug on frisbees.
—So I am not supposed to ever throw his reward / toy? It always needs to stay attached to me???
Of course we throw rewards. Each behavior will have a specific way to use the reward and throwing is part of it. Throwing a toy and playing (either going to get it or he retrieves it) or throwing a lotus ball or treat hugger then you go over and engage are great uses of reinforcement that also involve engagement. I’m trying to get you to not just drop a cookie or lotus ball then walk away. Also, for thrown or placed reinforcement, we need him to be able to engage with it by himself (grabbing it or opening it to get the food without you) in order for it to be most effective. And yes, in other situations, you do have him chase you for a toy or lotus ball on a toy in your hand, depends on the behavior.
—What do I do when I’m trying to get him to drive forward? Can I throw it then or pre place and race him??? I just watch everyone throwing toys, lotus balls so I’m soooo confused (not surprising).—
Yes, throw it. I think the demos have a ton of thrown rewards. Your habit it cookie dropping and disengaging, which is what we are trying to change.
—What about a treat pouch??? What are your thoughts on those? I know I can’t throw one because the reward isn’t immediate, but for something to drag and chase and I open?—
It might be useful to drag as a toy, tied to something long like you would do with the lotus ball. I don’t love it as a thrown reward because he can’t get the food without you being there.
On the video:
Bearing in mind that toy play is a lot more physical exertion for the dogs, you want to keep the sessions short and be done sooner. That’s why he initially did not want to play again – he was tired and probably waiting for cookies! Sitting down was definitely more enticing and that is great! Because this was his second session, a short session is best. And because he is little, tie that toy to something really long so he can chase it as you move (so you don’t bend over) as that seems to really light his fire. This session was MUCH more engaged! And faster. Ignore the bars – that will go away the more he gets used to training with toys and when he has fewer jump repetitions. Remember that less is more! Keep going like this, in short high energy blasts.
Tracy
Good morning!
No worries about being behind, life has been busy for you and we’ve got all summer to work these games. 🙂 I didn’t think you were making mistakes or in a bad head space in previous session, he just needed to figure it out 🙂This session was a combination of him having a chance to sort it out (latent learning), the wings a bit further apart, and you were very connected. It looked great! His wrap to the right at the beginning was lovely.
And he got his left turns here, hooray!!! No cutting behind the momma! You were a little late on the wrap, maybe because you were surprised at how well he got it 🙂That left turn section of the sequence was fully shaded in this video, maybe the bright sun yesterday did play a role when he was having trouble finding the left turns?
Great job here. And also terrific to end the session when he was getting it perfectly, no need to do a ton of reps 🙂
TracyGood morning!
—-will you show the jump instead of the tunnel? Not sure my yard is tunnel ready just yet!
Yes, I will draw it out but basically, a wing would replace each end of the tunnel and we would race track the dog around the wings 🙂
Motion override is going well when you were relatively stationary and slowly moving. I like how she is tucking her hind end! You can gradually add more motion – the error here was when you added a lot of motion, too big of a leap forward in challenge. Good job dialing it back, so she got it. The latency is a little high when you are moving, she is thinking HARD about it 🙂 so keep the moving very slow, snail’s pace, for now. You can add smaller steps and swinging arms a bit, to begin to give the running picture she will see in the future.
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! So much great work here!
The teeter game is looking good, her confidence is building for sure. Those treats are magic! To help her out, I think you can stabilize the board more, in terms of movement and sound. Instead of a disc at the top end, prop it with something that won’t move. And, put a tunnel bag on the base so that stabilizes the center of the board under her and quiets it a bit for now – she was worried about the bouncing in the center. And you can help her off rather than ask her to turn around – she seemed a little worried about that. To help her turn around, you can have her turn around on the part that touches the ground, so she feels more stable, then you can get it higher and higher.
One step send: I think the sends are going really well! Good timing of the arm and leg, and good connection! Her only question was at :25 when you sent but didn’t connect so she was not as she about where to go. The cookie throws were good! Be sure that you send with the dog-side arm like you did at :55 and 1:04 then throw with the other hand, sometimes the throw was happening before the send. This is going well from a stand-still, so definitely good to move on to the games with more motion 🙂
Lazy game:
On your left, she was looking at you a bit on that first rep and my guess is that your arm position almost looked like a heel cue. You can relax your left hand so it is not in any possible heel cue position (or she might have been looking at it for possible cookies :)) – she probably has some value for heeling when your hand is up on your waist so he had a little more trouble committing. It was easier for her when your arm stayed down, and when she was on your right side where there is probably less heel value.Timing and connection: This is going really well – fast and fun!
Now that sequencing is adding a lot more speed and it relies on your cues… reward her if something goes wrong because she is reading your cues 🙂 For example, you said “go tunnel” at the right time at :08 but that as she was taking the jump, you turned towards the other tunnel entry – so she correctly followed you, as that was where the cue was telling her to go. Good girl! You were much clearer at :16 with driving to the tunnel you wanted, but both reps were rewardable because she responded correctly on both.When you switched sides, we can really see the results of the lazy game and send practice: PERFECT! She drove out on her lines and to the tunnel without looking back at you. YAY! And you were connected and showing each line really well – good timing, and good verbals. SUPER!!!! Onwards to the crosses!!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
The Go reps looks good! The placed toy really helps keep him looking forward.
The first wrap after the GO reps WITH the toy still out there was GREAT! Definitely not hating it LOL! The only thing to consider with the FC wrap is that as you decel into it and rotate, try to keep your wings in – meaning, keep your arms in tight so yes, you can send forward a little but don’t let your arm come up or across your body. Centrifugal force is going to pull it that way, but it slows down the quickness of your rotation and also shows a bit too much forward motion for a collection moment. The quickness of the rotation on the FC will be helpful to stay ahead of him, because he is also very quick 🙂
I think the wrap RCs might feel awkward because they are not normal RCs 🙂 They will feel more normal is a bigger course, but mainly I think on this sequence for them to feel less weird, you would need to go all the way down to the tunnel so you are moving forward to the RC diagonal the whole time, rather than setting the RC or trying not to get caught behind the wing.
You are correct that most of the time on RCs we need to drive through and not decelerate, but we are starting to see these wrappy rears too – and we are also starting to see these RCs where we give all the info but don’t actually cut across the dog’s line, almost flipping them away more than an actual rear cross – it is very useful especially in some layering situations!
The Push is easy for him and yes you can leave sooner, I agree that he has the commitment to follow through and take the jump. On your 2nd push rep, you were sooner to turn that line (he was seeing the backside push before he took off for #3) and he had a more direct line to the backside, instead of landing then turning to it from the previous rep.
Great job on these! I think he is ready for the mirror image. And in the Wingin’ It live today, we will be working on even more independence and wings in moments too 🙂
See you soon!
TracyHi! It worked! I am putting it here so we can keep track of things.
The sequence looked great! The entire opening 1-2-3-4-5-6 looked perfect. You were really emphasizing the connect (magnet fingers!) and the verbals, while staying in motion.
The only question he had was at :13, you were turning as you were approaching 6 which pulled him off the 7 tunnel, but you were connected and able to redirect him. Yay! Note the difference when you were coming back to the last tunnel, how you ran directly to it and he nailed it. Nice!!!On wrap – you started to decelerate at the correct time (as he was lifting for 8), so you can make it a little more dramatic, slowing down even more. You started it but you were still moving forward, so he was a little wide on the wrap. The timing was good, so you can slow down a bit more and then do the FC just as he is arriving at the 9 jump.
Great job here!!!! Thanks for getting the video link to work, it was so fun. To watch!
TracyHi!
>>Is the December seminar live or online? It sounds so interesting.
It is live, but we are going to film it, I believe. It is fascinating stuff!!! It is always fun to work with a neuroscientist 🙂
>>Ginger had better timing overall today.
YES! I think the session before this one was super useful – all of your timing was earlire on this session (ok, maybe the first rear was late haha) ad it made a massive difference. Yay! And I agree – she is sorting out a lot of stuff and with the spay only a month ago, the 12″ bar is fine (the neuroscientist tells me that the adolescent dog brain struggles with this “sorting stuff out” haha!)
On the go lines: the placed reward on the go looked great! Also, it gets a really good neutral head position for the jumping. I think the only error was that we did it first (oops, my bad) and she was looking for that placed reward during the wrap reps and the rear crosses (sorry Sprite!) Next time, do the GO as the last skill 🙂
The wraps look good – there was some looking straight because of the toy placement but she responded well and gave you a really nice turn at :42!! That was really good colelction before the jump (even though she was probably still looking to where the toy was placed).
The rear crosses looked better when you moved more – the first one didn’t have enough motion but then you moved more so she got it. And you also moved into it from a bit further back, allowing you to also get around the wing better at 1:12 and the rep after it to get the line back the tunnel – very nice!
Backsides looked great too – those are the easiest ones because you are very timely and consent with the cues. YAY!!!
Great job! Onwards to the sits in motion! And if you have 2 videos ready to load, you can load them both, no need to wait 🙂
TracyHi!
Good for you for breaking it down!!! It really helps him understand the skills!
>> The weave section is the hardest. When it was broken down he’s been successful (when he was fresh and had only worked the tunnel through weaves section)
You are in good company, it was wicked hard for almost everyone because it has to be so independent! I have added a weave skill game to help improve it, you will see it on Monday 🙂
>> I also don’t trust him to do the backside after the dw (he runs around the jump if I’m moving) so that complicates things too.
Check out sequence 2 from this week’s live classes – it address that very thing to teach the dog to take the jump on a backside so you can move away as early as possible.
1-2 line – would he find 1 if you set him on a straight line, facing 2? Less handling for you!
Dang, he is fast and found his lines so well on the 5-6-7 line! And good job maintaining teeter criteria – that helped him remember his DW criteria too!
The send to the backside after the DW was AWESOME!!! You helped him get the jump there but that was correct for now, until you get a chance to practice the default “take the jump on the backside” game. And, even with helping, you got the turn to the correct end of the tunnel.
When he is on the way to the #12 tunnel – definitely layer all of those pesky jumps in your way to meet him at the a-frame exit. You can basically just use your verbals, a tiny bit of connection, and layer the 11 and 19 jumps to get to 15 :)We will be working more on layering soon! You layered the 19 jump on the 2nd time through there and it was great, he got the frame AND the threadle – NICE!!!!
The new weave game getting posted on Monday will help that entry 🙂
He was really good on the ending line! Because he continues to pick up speed and has a ginormous stride, I think you can totally start your decel and wrap verbal as he is lifting off for the jump before the wrap – that way, when he lands, he will see the cue already happening and have more time to adjust . Then, once you begin to rotate, turn and head to the next jump because that will help him drive back around even more.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyYay Moose! He looks so good!
On the wraps at the beginning of the first video:
Because of his stride length and jump height, I think to get the good wraps going he needs you to start the decel & verbal as he is lifting off for the middle jump here (jump 2) – you did this perfectly at :59! Yay! And then trust him (I know, trusting an adolescent boy dog is not so easy) and finish the FC rotation before he takes off – on the reps here, you waiting til he landed to finish it when ideally you would already be driving up the next line. He will be tighter on the wraps if you finish the turn and drive out of there.
Seq 1
It was hard to see why he dropped the first bar, he might have been set up too close? He read the line nicely, but you were too quiet LOL! You can support the motion with more verbals, to help strengthen the verbals.seq 2 looked great! Your MOOSE! right before the tunnel was all he needed to turn and you did a great job of turning too. Remember to trust him here too! You started the turn then waited… start it and keep moving 🙂
The “left-right-sorry” just cracked me up LOL!
2nd video, sequence 3:
Also really strong! Great timing on the ‘right’ and the shoulder turn before he went into the tunnel. He slowed down in the pinwheel, probably because you decelerated and turned with him. I think you can get more speed and maintain the great turn by sending him to 5 (the middle jump) then running and using verbals. That will show acceleration to get him to go straighter out of the tunnel (you can also yell the GO sooner – use it at the same timing as you said the right verbal here, about 8 feet from the tunnel entry, and say it a few more times to support the line).
On the 2nd rep, your “Moose right” and shoulder turn was great again! you had a bit more motion through the pinwheel and you accelerated more to the ending, so he was definitely faster and straighter out of the tunnel. You can send and leave even sooner, and use more big loud verbals for the go go go to the tunnel and last jump.Seq 4:
Good opening! Use more go verbals 🙂 on the 1-2-3 line to get even more speed. I couldn’t see his whole turn at 4, but I think it can be tighter: you started the ‘easy around’ verbal and shoulder turn when he landed but I think that you can do it at the same timing as the wrap: start it as he is lifting off for jump 3 here, so he sees it happening when he lands and has more room to adjust and make the tight turn.
You nailed that timing on the wrap at 1:18! I couldn’t see what he did but you had a big YES and the timing was great, so I imagine he was great too! As with the beginning sequences: turn and go, trust him, run for you life LOL! But be connected like you were here, it looked great.On the 2nd rep, you started the easy timing for 4 when he landed but decelerated too much – the firmness of the verbal and the decel caught too much of his attention (MOM WANTS ME NOW! Good boy :)) You were smoother there (less of an urgent verbal and softer decel) on the last rep and he was great. YAY!
One other observation – you had great connection and low arms throughout both videos: GREAT job!! He really thrives with the connection, keep it up!
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyGlad he did well with the lotus ball! Try to tie it to a leash or another toy, so he can chase it and grab at it like a toy.
And only use the tug toy in a situation where he is highly likely to engage (see above)Glad he did well with the lotus ball! Try to tie it to a leash or another toy, so he can chase it and grab at it like a toy.
And only use the tug toy in a situation where he is highly likely to engage (see above)Hi! I think the confusion might be coming from different behaviors needing different reinforcement strategies:
>>So, I’m trying not to have food on me or in my hands, am I confused, wasn’t I supposed to stop doing this? Can I not pre-place a reward?>>
On sequencing, we wanted to have more engagement overall, with a toy or a moving lotus ball tied to something. That will bring more speed, better understanding of skills, more focus, better able to build independent skills, distance/sends, less stopping for reward: more action, which is what sequencing is all about. The move to that was prompted by you using a lot of tossed cookies, or dropping the lotus ball, and not engaging. Engagement is a big piece of sequencing.
That’s different from the mountain climber teeter, for example, where the food CAN be placed on the target and should not be delivered from you hand, so he doesn’t look at you. I don’t often place a reward in sequencing when the dog is driving into handling (like the blind) because we can get it with the connected cue.
Each game or skill might have a slightly different style and type of reinforcement, so that might be the source of confusion? But all games should have reinforcement happening as soon as you have the behavior for now, rather than outside the area.
>> I went out with just a toy (after doing some high value teeter work) the other night and he would not work at all, he kept going back to the teeter.
My guess is that it was too close to the teeter to ask for toy play, in physical location and in time. Because the teeter has a pretty strong association with high value food, toy play should be in a spot where the teeter is not visible. And you can also use a moving lotus ball as a toy, tied to another toy to throw or drag so he can chase it and you can engage more.
>>I try a toy and he won’t work,
Try the toy at the time of day when he is most likely to engage and in a spot not associated with food. In other moments and if the behavior calls for it, use the lotus ball on a toy.
>>I try pre-placing and it’s not motivating enough. I can’t have food or toy in my hands cause he looks at me . . . I have put the lotus ball on a leash, but he still looks at me, but will chase it.>>
I think you give up too easily 🙂 and go back to your comfort zone reinforcement, which is static food delivery. Reinforcement will build the behaviors we want but won’t create them immediately. Consistency in placement and type of reinforcement will build the behavior such as looking at the line. So before each session, define how to reward and do that consistently. The inconsistencies are why he looks at you.
So for sequencing where we want him to read a blind cross, the reinforcement for that would be a moving toy or lotus ball on a toy, that he chases as you exit the blind.
Adjust the reinforcement for the skill you’re working on – it will almost never be static food placement for moving behaviors 🙂
Let me know if that makes more sense.Tracy
Hi!
>.We either run up or down hill in my yard, thinking about taking this on the road.>>
It is always good to take this on the road! Perfect!!
A bunch of thoughts for you on this one:
>> He really struggled come to my hand so will review hand touched. I back chained and that seemed to help.
Yes, we can help him see the blind crosses better but bear in mind – this is a cued behavior, so we need to make your cue clearer. If you cue it clearly, he will do it perfectly and naturally. I think the #1 thing here is to remember that the side change of the blinds are not cued by a hand touch, or coming to your hand a tall – they are cued by the change in connection (eye contact on your new side rather than trying to connect with your hand). Using the hand blocks connection, making it much harder for thedog to read the blind – he is not reading the correct tunnel entry til he sees your motion to it and hears you call him – the increased connection will help him do it very easily! For example, at 1:33 you tried it with the hand cue and he was really confused! It is all about the eyes 🙂
You can see more about the connection here:
To add more connection, that means you should keep your hand back and out of the way and look at him, rather than try to have him come to your hand (dogs really don’t read it as a hand cue, especially not small dogs). So as you start the blind, put the new dog-side arm (right arm in this case) behind you and look at his eyes. as you keep moving forward.
Placing the box of food there taught him the sequence… but doesn’t help the handling though because it doesn’t teach YOU to be clear for him and ultimately will result in more reps and more errors. So when the food box was gone, at 3:36 you were still not clear with the connection so he hopped around behind you – he got it but it does not help you handle better when there is no food box on the line.
Speaking of the food box…
>>I am using a box with his lotus ball and treats that we can run to when time to treat, nothing on me anymore.
Why? I ask because we are training, and this method of reinforcement is incredibly delayed, making things unpredictable and losing the opportunity to reward in the moment, when reinforcement is most effective. I do teach this as a skill, and there is a specific verbal marker attached – but it is definitely NOT a lifestyle for training and so it should be done sometimes but not all the time. It is also a problem in terms of motivation – some dogs slow down because all of the value is outside of the sequence, speeding up at the end because that is where they think reward is coming. Some dogs go fast, but they get frantic or just get on big lines because the obstacles are the reinforcement (which is not a good thing LOL!)
Also, the food box is not interactive at all, and I remember you recently saying this:
June 30th:
>>Okay, I’m about to hit you with a few videos but first I want to say when I watch these videos back I seriously cried (I know, there’s no crying in agility, just cowboy up and fix it). Why do I not play with him more when I’m training? We have a super great relationship and we play a ton, plus I’m trying to get him more engaged with a tug outside or when we train. >>I think you are focusing too much on getting the sequence done here, and not on the play, the high rate of success (paired with being in the moment) and getting the handling mechanics correct. So while yes, sometimes we do leave the reward outside the sequence and run with nothing in our hands or pockets, that is a super small percentage of the time, especially with young dogs learning a new skill. If you are trying to teach skills or master mechanics without reinforcement available instantly, you will find it very difficult to teach the skill and get speed. In short – bring the rewards with you,and bring TOYS!!!
The connection shoud smooth it all out! Try it and let me know how it goes!
Tracy
He is doing great with his teeter!!! I love his confidence! Leave the tip of the teeter at this same spot, for now.
On the first 2 reps, the reward was not on the target so he was looking at you too much – it was much better when you placed the food on the target. Because of his small size, raise the target so he doesn’t have to look down as far – hat pull his weight to his front end too much. Ideally the target height would be right at the end of the board or just a sliver below it. He is also getting the idea of backing up onto the board – staying closer helps for sure. He is still lifting his head a lot, so do you have something lower to sit on, so you are closer to the ground to help keep his head lower?Nice work!
Tracy
