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Good morning! These are going well! A couple of ideas for you:
When using the lotus ball, it quickly becomes a ‘dead’ reward which is not that exciting and he slows down. So, tie it to a leash or another toy so you can drag it and he can chase it. You can also use tug toys for these!
And good job catching yourself and giving reset cookies, rather than marking as wrong or starting again. Keep doing that, don’t show the lotus to reset without giving the treat – it gives you both a moment to plan the next rep and keeps his overall rate of reinforcement really high!
Smiley face game:
You were making good adjustments here! I think the main thing is going to be figuring out what he needs for connection. I think the main thing that will make connection more visible for him will be arm position: when your arm is at your side, he really can’t see connection even when you are looking back at him so he relies on footwork. But if you played with looking your arm all the way back by locking your elbow, fully extending your arm behind you, with your fingers pointing to his nose while you make eye contact (and keep moving of course hahaha) – I think that will be the key. To know if you are keeping your arm properly locked back and low in the moment, try running with an open bottle of water in your hand. If you spill? You are swinging your arm forward. Be sure your arm is locked back and not at your side when you do this, or you will spill and break connection LOL!
I think you were so focused on the right turn race tracks that you got quiet in the tunnel go go go moments, so remember to give him the Go cues.His commitment was looking strong overall, so we can keep trying to figure out the best connection for him.
Proofing:
2 ideas to help him out:
You can change the angle of the tunnel so that the entry is facing him when he comes around the wing, both for distraction purposes and so it is easier to handle when you do want the tunnel and not the wrap. It can be curved, it is makes for an easier setup.also, for now- keep moving with this game by using handling, even if it is just a little, When you were stationary, the footwork would sometimes contradict the cue and so he would go with your footwork which created too many failures. The setup is challenging so you can totally use handing now by moving through each cue. And the handling on the wraps (and dragging the lotus ball for him to chase) will add more speed too 🙂
When you want the tunnel, add the connection and move directly to the opening. With this angle, when you looked forward or turned your shoulders, he was not sure which end of the tunnel to go to, so came with you (like at 2:41).The connection and line you used at 2:57 was much clearer so he was successful. Yay!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyThanks! I give him a lot of credit for reproducing trained behaviors despite never having been in that location and never having been a part of real racing (4 dogs in each lane and the lights and judge and people and and and and… LOL!!) Part of it is he was well-prepared with these games before each turn. and part of it is he is just a level-headed dude who is able to maintain thoughtfulness even in new internal/external environments (a true gift from the dog sport gods hahaha).
I know there is video somewhere, I will find it!
T
Hello and welcome! I agree, the clips are definitely getting better and better!
Thanks for all the good info, I have lots of ideas for you!!First, on the history, great info!!!
We are going to focus on filling in the gaps in understanding that are causing her to stress about the start.
>>In class if she is not focused on me she can be triggered by the motion of the dog in the ring and growl/bark.
Outside the ring at a trial Skipper’s behavior is similar to class except that because there are so many dogs I have to be more mindful of making sure she doesn’t end up in a face to face with another dog. I tend to warm up in a quiet corner where she can focus on me.>>This is rooted in an underlying anxiety, which the pattern games REALLY help. Make those a tippy top priority! And the engaged chill will be super useful, so you don’t have to work to keep her engaged the whole time. Working to keep her engaged so she doesn’t react is management, and management will fail at some point.
>>Carry the dog in and place her down facing me (although this also means facing the gate which might be an issue).
How do you ask them to line up and stay? Go through my legs and line up at my side.
How quickly is your dog able to respond to your cues:
• There is a delayed response and sometimes needs multiple cues>>
>>• There is a delayed response and sometimes needs multiple cues, if I take her collar she will sit
• If the first jump is facing the gate it is very hard to get her to sit>>On the the video, she displays a lot of classic stress signs (yawning, sniffing, leaving, full body shake, looking around). So… I vote we change the line up procedure! Blank slate. Cleanse the palate. And a challenge for you: no more hand on collar. That collar grab is a punisher, which contributes to stress. The challenge for you is to play all of these games without ever putting your hand on her collar. I will reward your success with a bottle of wine! Let’s create a new procedure so that she chooses to do it and is not moved into position.
>. If she does leave the ring, I step out the side door until she comes back to find me.>>
Bearing in mind that you leaving is a punishment (negative punishment) – how often does it happen? Did it happen once and not again? Or does it still happen here and there? Or happen a lot? If it happened once and doesn’t happen any more, ok, cool! If it still happens? Take out that option of punishment because it adds stress to an already stressful situation (even if she gets cookies when you come back – you leaving so she looks for you is playing on her anxiety, which is stressful!) If there is even the slightest possibility that she might choose the wrong behavior and you would leave… don’t ask for the behavior for now. Set her up for guaranteed success. Take punishment off the table. I know that people call it all sorts of things other than punishment… but it is punishment. And punishment can work if she knows how to be correct: what I mean by that is you will punish once and then she really won’t do it ever again. If it happens repeatedly? Then she doesn’t know what to do instead, which increases stress.
Since there are a lot of games to play, start with short, high success blasts of these:
Tricks! First with cookies in your hand, then in your pockets, then on a table nearby.
The pattern game – this one is a definite for her, it will be so helpful!
Remote reinforcement – I think she has played this beginning step before, so refresh it 🙂
Get the line up games going, so we can train a new line up routine. And when you get to the stay element, you can let her choose the position. I think the sit has been paired with stress, so if she wants to stand, that is fine. You might notice that I often just say “stay” and walk away, letting the dog choose the position 🙂
And get your engaged chill going! Because of her size, you can also do engaged chill holding her 🙂I am excited to see her in action! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Sadly, no video from outside the ring at the flyball tournament – not enough people had free hands to video, very tight space, and I didn’t bring a tripod. We have another tournament in 2 weeks so I will bring a tripod 🙂 Results were very good – the dog was in a much more difficult environment than ever before but was able to produce behaviors exactly as he does in his home environment. That was the goal!>>(no treat tossing on the turf)>>
Really? Humph. LOL!! Even more reason to do the hand version. You can also bend over and place the treat on your shoe as long as your back won’t get angry – the dogs like the up-and-down patterns too!
Question – how did you feel she did on the starts here and in the first part of the sequence? I think she looked really good! How did she do in her other turns?
On the first video, during the first transition – you can be doing the pattern game outside the ring as the other dog is finished, the dogs find that to be a good antecedent for a nice relaxed focused state going into the ring. She kind of jumped out at the other dog (not in a nasty way at all, but in an interactive way) and having the pattern game starting sooner will help that moment of over-arousal. Then you can do the tugging as you go into the ring.
For the hand pattern game in the ring, try to rock back and forth less, you can just drop your hand to your side, let her come get the treat, then let her offer engagement again (mainly so the rocking back and forth doesn’t become a cue).She was tugging beautifully! Add in some more tricks in there (volume dial game) so we can see where her head is rather than duration tugging. She was tugging but not 100% engaged (she was looking around a bit as you lead out). A couple of tricks will get more engagement and let you know when she is fully ready.
>> If you would like to see more of either session I can PM you, but I can’t figure out how to turn off sound on the videos.>>
Since we are looking at behavior, you can PM them if there is a particular spot you want to talk about. I can turn the sound off 🙂
2nd video – as the dog was exiting, you can be doing patterns here too! I use the cookie pattern games outside the ring as a combo of chill environment assessing and, after the dog understands them, they quickly become a ‘we are about to go into the ring’ cue – but in a really really good way with tons of centered engagement.
You can also do tricks for treats or tugging on that 3 mile walk to your start jump LOL!But overall, I think she did well! And her commitment looked strong – she got a little grumbly when you were maybe a little late LOL! We will be building on all of this. Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I saw the video come in – thanks! we don’t have a TNC tonight but I can ask and see if people are niterested maybe later this week!>>We did some engaged chill today with a chair near the ring. I will have pay more attention in order to find more things that might work for engaged chill. She doesn’t have any natural behaviors per se.>>>
When she is interacting with you at home, soliciting attention when no food or toys or training are involved… what does she do? Where does she like to be petted, or hang out near you? That can start to give you ideas to build on.
>>>This was a hard trial for her for some reason and each day and run got harder and more shut down.
My guess is it was depletion – like a bank account getting overdrawn. The outside trials are definitely harder and more distracting, so she likely had to make more withdrawals from the mental bank account to work in the ring.
>>The funny thing about Tango and I don’t know if you caught it in the run or not is that once she gets into the game, her stress reduces and she actually runs. >>
Yes, it might be that the body chemistry changes, heart rate goes up, respiration rate increases? Or hte opposite – she relaxes a bit due to running. We will be playing with different heart rates soon. You can count her respiration rate outside the ring at home versus at a trial – in 15 seconds, how many times does she do a full inhale/exhale?
it could also be that running in the middle/end of the course is the antecedent to getting the reward, which is stimulating! We just need to get that into the ring and off the start line 🙂
>> Last weekend we had chutes into the ring instead of gates and we had much easier transitions to the ring.
Easier transitions in that she was more stimulated and engaged on the starts? That is useful info!!!
Tracy
Good morning!
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>>Detour question here: I find a sterile / quiet environment can draw her focus away from me a lot more than a busy one. Very regularly during private practice time in our “home” arena she sniffs the ground, wanders away, has no interest to earn reinforcement >>>This is actually the absolute perfect time to practice these games. What is happening is that you are getting the same behavior as you get at trials, but without the possible stress component and with access to positive reinforcement (food!) It is rare that we can elicit the same behavior like this, so definitely embrace it!
>>vs if there are 2 classes going on or a lure coursing machine running nearby she is much more “eyes on mom” ready to start.
That is the environment changing her state of arousal in a good way in those cases… but that will end up being artificial for agility because the environment in the agility situation doesn’t change her state of arousal like that.
>> It seems like the less distracting an environment would seem to be, the more distracting it actually is. My suspicion is that if I wait for her to offer I may get very very tired of waiting.
This is perfect. You don’t have to start with a pattern game in that environment, you can start with tricks for treats. But also, the pattern game (and the others!) absolutely need to see this environment because it will get the behavior in a similar state to what you are seeing in trials.
>>And yet I think I’ve just answered my own question – I need to start with a very small space and just wait her out?
Yep! Try a hallway or bathroom. Nothing else to do except look at you. And getting yu to allow her to offer the engagement is hard 🙂 but worthwhile!
>>What would you want me to do if she does wander off during a session of Remote Reinforcement?
Management in the form of a leash you are holding loosely will prevent her from going too far. Plus, a sterile environment doesn’t need to be a place she can exit from.
>>I hear you: “don’t cue in this game,” but now I fear getting out ahead / flat footed / paralyzed.
Just stand still. Think about what you are going to do for dinner or a TV show you’d like to watch. Smile at her and wait.
>>When I got ahead of her yesterday I started marching in place / taking tinier steps.
That would be cuing with motion 🙂 If there is no place left to go… just wait. The space should be small, a leash will prevent her from going anywhere, and you can accept any bit of the criteria.
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> Well, you made it game #7 and you’re giving us all good things to do next with the first games, so of course we haven’t gotten to #7 yet, LOL!>> Ha! You can skip around, they don’t need to be in order for now 🙂
On the video – this hallway is perfect for remote reinforcement! The only hard part was the teat going down the stairs LOL!
She seemed to like this game! The hand cue helps for sure. You can do shorter sessions/fewer reps, I think she gets a bit bored with the repetition. If she is at 100% “this is easy” for a game like this with cookies present, you can do 4 or 5 reps then add in the next step (the sit or stay behavior) so it is not all about finding the cookies. Increasing the criteria a little when she is working at 100% rate of reinforcement is fine, as long as it is only one increase per session. So for the next session, warm up with one or two reps like you did here, then add in the sit. If she is happy with that and at 100%, you can add the dismount.>>There are so many games you’ve given us – if you think we should leave this one alone for a few weeks that would make sense to me. I can keep working on the “cookie” reward on my shoes to build her willingness to drive into me in general before adding this between pressure.>>
I didn’t see any pressure-stress behavior here – it was all “where’s the cookie?” Partially because there were lots if flying cookies, and partially because moving out from between your feet relieves the pressure. She seemed happy with it all.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
This is a great series of videos to let us know what he needs. Very informative! More below:>>>> When is your next agility class?
Tomorrow. It’s on Mondays at 8:15pm so I have to drive during the chats. He has a run thru on Sat 3/26 so toys and food allowed.>>Great! For both of these, bring reinforcement into the ring and do tricks for treats or toys (whichever is higher value in the moment) as you go into the ring. He can totally see that you have food or toys available. And reward a lot throughout.
Looking at the videos!
He does seem fine t hang out with the PT til cookies appear! I am surprised that it takes so long, the PT is the best one on the market! But as long as he is happy, it is all good 🙂Food on table session: this is a great training level for him right now!! Just enough distraction that it is challenging, but he is also able to be pretty successful! So keep doing these sessions with him (cookies on a table) until we see low latency, meaning he can respond in a second or less (which is basically what he does when cookies are in your hand) and when the type of response is as crisp and upbeat as when you have cookies in your hand. You might find that he gets to low latency in one room, but is back to high latency (slower, stickier responses) in another room – totally normal! It gets better and better with practice and super high rates of reinforcement that you had here.
Fur squeaker – he likes this one! Low latency and crisp responses!
Clam in hand also good in terms of his responses! Same with the sheepskin tuggie 🙂
He was interested in the food duck but I agree that it is more of a pain to use and he was more interested in the other stuff.Flirt poles was VERY stimulating which is great. I think the higher level of stimulation (plus perhaps being a little mentally tired) contributed to the circle versus middle errors. You can use a hand cue to help him out. I think the flirt toy needs to move more – he got distracted when it didn’t move but engaged a lot when it moved.
Looking at all the videos in order:
I think it helps explain why he struggles in the ring at the start line: everything is easy and fun with the reinforcement present and in your hands. As soon as reinforcement is not in your hands… things are very different and he has lots of questions. In the home environment, he is slower to respond (high latency) and not quite as crisp in the responses. But in a trial environment, with so many more distractions, he gets stressed and that is why you are seeing his questions there.So definitely keep going at home with the tricks with cookies/toys NOT in your hands but nearby. And check out the remote reinforcement game, that is going to be a HUGE one for him.
Separately, at classes and the run through – make being in the ring the most incredibly reinforcing happy place filled with reinforcement (so we can eliminate stress by building a positive conditioned emotional response). For now, that means he can see the cookies and use the high value toys (I promise we will fade those, but not yet :)) and only do the most super fun easy things that he is no going to get wrong.
These two things will build together over time and he will be one happy, fast dude!
Let me know if that makes sense! I am excited to be able to see where we are going with this 🙂
TracyGood morning!
Definitely good to dust off the tricks now that there is value coming up for some many other things like obstacles. You are probably now in the young dog phase of having a lot you want to train – it sounds like you are doing bits and pieces of this stuff sprinkled in throughout the training and that is great!
>>So, we’ve got active tricks step 1 and 2 (treats in hand, then treats in pocket),
The tricks look really engaging and you’ve got a wide variety with different levels of ‘action’. Perfect! You can do a bit of tricks with cookies on the bench nearby (nothing in hand or pocket, no clicker) just for practice and to help prepare for future steps. I think it will be easy for him. And he was so funny – “I will just chill out while you figure out what you used to call it” hahaha
>>then some line-up stuff with all 3 of his lineups (I don’t think any are poisoned or negative so just worked them all).>>
I agree – nothing is poisoned so it is more of a fun game for now. At some point, the best option for the line up will become obvious based on how it feels in the moment and what behavior it elicits. You don’t need to make that decision til he is trialing.
The line up game between your feet looked great – even if you never use it for a line up, it is engaging and a good active warm up! And he likes the other games too – they all involve engaging with you, which has generally been his favorite thing 🙂
There was a little pattern game action too – very easy for him because he recognizes it and enjoys it: perfect!!
One other thing to add to tricks and pattern games and line ups (not the one where he is racing back and forth) is the leash. Just getting the dogs used to the leash being in the picture all the time is helpful, because it just fades into the background and doesn’t get associated with anything like going into the ring (which could skew a conditioned emotional response in either direction, depending on the dog). So, if we add it now, it is just present and not anything else. Also, it helps with mechanics to have the leash in hand – I mean human mechanics 🙂 It is more challenging to be crisp and clean with mechanics and reinforcement when there is a big fuzzy leash there 🙂
> Then we did a little bit of calmer stuff and in between a bit here and there he offers some calmer engagement while I try to get my sh*#t together. His lie down in middle position +/- chin on my foot is something we’ve been doing ringside a bit lately to give him a place to be that is both close and connected to me. We also do a little of our barking dogs are a cue for focus on mom +/- putting your chin on her thigh just because the other dogs did do some intermittent barking and that’s what I would do in class or a trial.>>
All of that was great, I really love the chin-to-thigh that is cued by barking! Question: for the engaged chill, we need a relaxed behavior that does not also have any expectation of a food reinforcement. So I am thinking that the chin-to-thigh is NOT the engaged chill behavior. The chin-on-foot might eventually become one but I think it is a work in progress and still needs cookies. So possibly the down in middle position without the chin on your foot can be the engaged chill? What else have you seen in your daily interactions that doesn’t have any cookie feelings associated?
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> T I tend to start to make them all sound the same. I also get loud when I use any verbals. So it was a challenge for me but something “I” really need to be more aware of.
I totally feel this pain, which is why I have gone to verbals that are a little weird. I was tending to just yell ALL THE THINGS. So I chose verbals, especially for wraps, that are impossible to yell LOL! That has really helped. Plus, using some verbals as questions (left? Right?) also helps because the dog does not perceive them as questions and I don’t yell them LOL! Training ourselves is the hardest part indeed.
This session looked really good! Part of it is just getting the baby dogs trained, and that comes with experience 🙂 I heard a definite difference in the verbals here 🙂
All dogs have preferences about tunnel exits – he naturally produces a soft turn that is pretty perfect for a dog his size (we don’t want a lot of collection with the littles, he was rocking it). And his wing wraps and commitments looked great. So we can add more balance on the RUN exits by rewarding them more specificaly:
– on the run heading towards the wing, you can throw the reward long and towards the wing, no need to actually cue the wing for now. The more he learns to accelerate away from the tunnel exit, the easier it will be for him to find the wing (because it will be right there. In front of him LOL!)
Also, I think you can trust his tunnel commitment enough to let him see you accelerate as you are saying your run cue for the tunnel. You were a bit stationary or decelerated, and letting him see you take off like your pants are on fire will help support the run run run cue 🙂– the other place to put more value on the run is on the last tunnel of each sequence. Rather than use a ‘get it’, you can cue the run run run and throw long (the get it can happen after the run, but the run cue should also predict looking ahead for the toy).
Your left and right race tracks looked really super connected! You can try rotating your upper body back to him a little less, I think it was causing your feet to rotate. Because he us little, you can play with dipping your dog side shoulder down to see if it gets the same connection? Handling little dogs with connection requires a bit of experimenting to find the sweet spot – I am sure you have done this with your other dogs, so now we find the sweet spot for him!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! She is a lovely mover!
She was doing this cavalettis-style, trying to produce a balanced trot and not jump. I’m betting it was because of the Treat n Train: it slows the dogs down as they prepare to stop to eat the cookies 🙂
So, go back to the 4 foot distance and use the moving target 🙂 Start with the toy being stationary for a rep to make sure she is cool with it, then go to the sloooooow dragging toy as you release her. I think it will make all the difference 🙂
>> I did slow mo just so I can see. I’m not sure what you prefer.
I am happy either way – I can either watch it already in slo mo or I can use YouTube settings to get it in slow motion if I need to see something specifically.
Nice work!
TracyGood morning!
Snow in your shoes is in the funny – not funny category LOL! Come on snow, go away!
The moving target looked good! You can add it to the set point. 🙂
On the Wind In Your Hair game:
Great job with the verbals and she was fabulous about finding the jump and accelerating! Wheeeee! She is a speedy pup!!!!
>> just want to see where I’m going…this is great practice. I definitely have to connect with her.
Yes, this game will help get your connection where it needs to be. With young dogs in particular, we need to make very direct eye on tact (keeping your dog-side arm back) as you move up the line.
With that in mind: if she ends up on the wrong side of you, that is handler error not doggie error, so reward her each and every time it happens. It can be a reset cookie as she comes back but she was reading you correctly (or taking a good guess) so she needs to be paid every time. If the dogs don’t get rewarded, the rate of reinforcement drops, they don’t know what they didn’t get the reward… and then they get stressed. So if there is even the slightest chance it was handler error? Reward her 🙂 For example, she ended up on the wrong side of you at :16 and :56 – both were disconnections so she read them as spins. She was correct so you can reward that 🙂
Same thing about reset rewards if you try to send to the start wing and she doesn’t go – for now, add a step to the wing to help support the start, especially as you add more distance. She was perfect when you stepped to the wing, like at 2:03 and 2:10. But when there was no real step, she was not quite as sure – so if that happens, you can use a reset cookie or toy then take her collar rather than grab her collar and move her back into position – that keeps it cleaner and happier for her.
Speaking of connection: try to have your dog-side arm a bit further back, pointing to her nose/eyes, rather than at your side. That way she can see your eyes more clearly which will help get connection as you get further ahead.
Also, great job with your reward placement: when it was easy to do, you tossed the reward and got it there early enough that she didn’t have to look back. And with the big distance, using the placed reward was perfect. Well done!
Great job here! Fingers crossed for no more snow!!!
TracyGood morning! Congrats on the success in the ring. THose courses are why we train the verbals, because I am pretty sure we cannot outrun Sly down those lines LOL!!! Good boy to get it done in the face of really exciting distractions and a lot of speed!!!!!
You’ve done a great job with him – see ya in the next class!
Tracy
Good morning!
He is definitely doing well with the backsides, both the circles and the slices!The circles all looked really good here – you can put them on the back burner til you can run awgain – right now you are on landing side and he needs to see you passing takeoff side.
For the slices versus front – I agree, he did well with working tight to you with the friz! Yay! Be super careful of mechanics on this game to minimize error – all of the errors were because of the setup mechanics making things harder than he is ready for.
For the wing in position 2, your line of motion should be parallel to his line, directly from the edge of the wing to the center of the bar. At :14, he pulled off the backside because with the wing at position 2, you were pulling away to position 3 which is too hard for now. You moved up a better one at :24 and he got it 🙂An on the wing wraps – they can be post turns or spins but not front crosses 🙂 At 1:00 (and then also at 1:45) you did a front cross which put him on a direct line to the center of the bar (rather than moving around the outside of the wing to see more of the backside line) so it was too challenging and not quite enough room to get to the backside. In those oopsie moments, always reward and reset – that keeps him happy and also it gives you a moment to decide on the next rep. You kept going here so on the next rep, he had the same line up and you used handling to step in. That got the backside but doesn’t help the verbal.
So to help build it gradually and minimize failure, the start to each rep becomes critical in terms of where he exits the wing (always facing a relatively clear line to the backside) and you can just move forward (then hop out of the way as he gets to the bar hahaha). I have put a leash on the ground to help me remember where to move .
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
On serp versus go – I am still glad she wants the go go go 🙂 On this setup, she isn’t ready for you to eliminate the serp handling with the closed shoulder yet (which makes the handling look the same as go handling. The setup is plenty challenging, so you can use handling to help her differentiate. How do you normally handle serps? I think most of us open our shoulders to the jump, swinging the arm back.You can add this to this game: use serp upper body (shoulders rotated to face jump and keep moving, rather than decelerating or rotating feet or pulling away). And you can close your shoulders forward on the Go Go Go reps.
On the 2nd side, you had a little more serp upper body like at :50 and I think it made more sense to her.>>Backside wraps- more like what you were describing?
Yes to the starting point, she could totally see the wing and that really helped. But no to the reward placement LOL! You are throwing it ahead of you, which encourages her to get to you as fast as possible which can cause her to skip the circle wrap when you are running.
So picture a bar on the circle wrap – and toss the toy behind you as you run through, to where her front feet would be landing from the jump (more back to where you started). She doesn’t complete the circle with this placement, because it emphasizes commitment 🙂Nice job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
