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Hi!
>>>> I * think* your hand was empty as you were cuing it? but watch him reach for the hand with an open mouth
Yes, my hands were empty. I saw his air snap which is probably from magic hand where I drop the food for him to catch. I was able to use my empty hand to keep his focus walking in during training and run thru but didn’t work at trial. I did notice in walking in he tends to jump on my legs so maybe would work better.>>When we build on the tricks and remote reinforcement, he will display preferences for which tricks he likes so you might find that the jump up and circle and middle might all come into play!
>> we would like for him to run agility and there are no cookies! So I think the games will build up to where he can do all sorts of things with no cookies present
I do use different process in agility. I wear training pockets with toys, food, and treat dispenser loaded with cheese. I was running him in training with no rewards and my trainer said something. He loves the obstacles and agility. I was using the food to keep him quiet in between. So I use the cheese on contacts to reinforce stopping as that goes out the window in trial. At the end I toss the clam loaded with cheese over the last jump.>>I think that we are going to start planning to use reinforcement differently in classes at trials – he loves the obstacles, yes, but he doesn’t necessarily love the “in between” spaces so he gets distracted or stressed. So for now, use the reinforcement early and often in class, especially for tricks at the start line and for handling and jump sequences. And we will also work on fading out the training pockets and the clam, while maintaining value for running with focus, even with distractions around.
>> At home, I use remote treat dispenser for agility. It’s unreliable so he gets a lot of standing in front of it with head cocked to side wondering where’s the reward. >>
Ah, must be a Treat N Train, mine does the same thing LOL!! It can indeed be unreliable for precision rewards but can be useful for end of run jackpots. Does he seem happy to patiently wait for it to spit out treats?
>>For fitness, it was mainly luring and slowing him down with food in my hands. For his daily meals, I use training games so it’s tossed or comes from hands so I can leave that on table or in pockets.>>
Perfect! I see no reason to change any of that.
>> feel free to try this with toys
I will try some sessions with toys. Should I try different toys to see what works? Is it ok to use the clam with food? I was able to connect the clam to the flirt pole so he got excited (too excited to go to bed).>>Yes, you can totally use different toys so we can sort out a hierarchy of value for the toys. And of course, keep me posted – he is a great little dog so I am asking a ton of questions, so we can start putting all the pieces together 🙂
When is your next agility class?
Tracy
Good morning!
Hey I have that shirt! Love it!So I know that you couldn’t get a lot os success on the soft turns here but I am actually excited by this session: when we started this class, wasn’t your MAIN goal to get more go go go in your world?
Well, it has arrived hahahaha And I want it to stay 🙂 So unless you think you have a problem getting soft turns on course – do more GO reps than soft turn reps. And when you do a soft turn rep, help with handling a bit more. If she is all spicy for the go go go now, I LIKE IT! And I will take some extra off courses as we balance back and forth a bit to find perfection. I am confident that if you simply turn, she will turn (like you did on both the soft turns and the serps) so keep up the excitement for the GO!Let me know what you think 🙂
TracyGood morning!
Sorry this one is later than 4:30am LOL
>>Also my bar was locked in, he still knocked it.
No worries, he really doesn’t have a bar knocking issue so no need to really worry. There is not a lot of momentum in this game.
>>He wasn’t super excited for this session but we had also played frizz about 6 different times today so he may have been a bit drained.>>
For getting the most positive conditioned emotional response, try to do the agility when he at his freshest and feeling great, so it is all fun and giddy up. That way he never has any association of having to do it when he is tired.
>>I feel as though feedback on rehearsal will be given because I kept fucking up the wing wrap thinking so hard about the jump. Got it!
You were doing a spin on the start wing – for the backside slices he probably doesn’t need it but it certainly didn’t seem to hurt! His only real question was on the front side to the right, Iso think a spin on the wing can help to get him to come off the backside line on the first reps, then you can do a simple post turn to add more challenge on front versus back.
His “passes” are looking SUPER good both in getting to the backside and in jumping the jump! I noticed they looked good in the Dudley videos too 🙂
Circle wraps are hard without running but you were good with your mechanics reward placement! And he looked good.
He had one more question, at the end – when you dropped the toy, he started to go for it, then you said strike and he said, “HUH?” I think strike is for toy-in-hand , right? So he was confused and that is why he looked at you sideways LOL
When your nose is happier, add more motion. While you are waiting for a happy nose, move the start wing to position 2 🙂 Great job!
TracyFor some reason, the forum is not letting me answer your question in the previous post. So:
– When I video the set point one (after your feedback on this one), is it better for a straight on or a side, or both?
On the side is best so we can see the full picture of her striding.
Great job here!!! Looking forward to the set point!
Tracy
Good morning! That toy is awesome!
She did well holding her stay but more importantly the more the toy moved, the more she got her head low and powered to the toy. LOVE IT! She looked good on the flat and on the jump too. You can play with adding more speed to the dragging toy on the flat for more fun and excitement with the toy 🙂
Onwards to the set point!!
Good morning!
Good boy for working with horses in the field! And you were smart to use food, the higher value reward worked well in the face of big distractions.
He did really well with the game here! He had a couple of questions and I think they were mainly about starts (or resets) –
When there is an error, reset at your side with a cookie then start over by taking his collar and/or making connection, then sending into the game. That way he doesn’t rehearse the frustration behavior of leaping up when you keep going after an error. And when you do reset him between reps, let him have the cookie, take a moment to connect and line up, then send. I think some of the starts and resets happened too quickly so he was not entirely sure when to start 🙂
In the next session:
You can totally use more handling here – motion will both help make it harder! You can stretch the tunnel out even more so you can meet him at the exit then move forward to the wing. More speed will add challenge for both of you 🙂Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
He did well on both of these! Here are some ideas for you:On the proofing game:
At the start of each session, you can move more for both the tunnel and the wrap cues so that there is handling help to get the game rolling. Think of it as helping (with some handling) then testing (with less handling) rather than testing then going back to helping if he struggles. And the handling can be pretty high action, especially some turn and burn running on the exit of the wraps 🙂
And if there is an error, give a reset cookie and start over rather than keep going because continuing might get more errors. The reset cookie gets a reward for lining up again, and gives you a chance to change plans for the next repSmiley face is going well! You already noticed that you needed to give the tunnel exit cues sooner and more often and by the end of the video you had them going. Yay! For those right turns, 2 ideas:
For a bigger visual for him, you can turn the angle of the wing so he can see the face of it – jump cups pointing to the tunnel and the entire set of white poles visible as he turns the corner from the previous wing. That can help!Also, I did not ice a difference in handling when you got it right versus wrong:
You had lots of motion and connection at 1:15 and 1:58 and you were pretty far ahead! When you are ahead and connected, he does better. On the other reps, when you stayed closer and decelerated, he collected and came into you, which made it harder for him! So tay connected like you did but send and run run run – he will let us know if my theory is correct or not 🙂
Emmett wanted in on the fun LOL Good boy!Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! Sounds like she had a great day 🙂
She did really well here! Most reps were really lovely – one thing to add is the “toy is available” reward marker so she is not trying to track toy presentation to decide on the behavior. I think that is what happened at :37 – as she was heading to the tunnel, your movement was basically identical to the toy presentation when she was correct on wraps, so she came off the tunnel. At :49 I didn’t see anything that you did differently that caused hr to go into the tunnel – and you don’t have to reward the same way as if it was correct. You can use a rest cookie there to gt a reward in and line her up for the next rep. So a “strike” marker can mean “that is correct!!” and a “come for a second” type marker with a cookie to line up can be more of a nice try, let’s go again.
Let me know if that makes sense!You can also add more motion in this, doing a tunnel then meeting her at the exit so you can move forward up the line to the wing wrap 🙂
Great job! Have a great day!
TracyGood morning! He is doing really well!!! Most baby dogs are either handler focused or line focused as they start out, so I am not concerned that he is handler focused right now – we will be able to shift that pretty easily now that the snow is gone!
A couple of ideas for you – handling and training ideas:
From the handling side of things, try more direct connection here, more eye contact with your arm back as you run (I know, I am asking for all the things :)) The increased connection will help in the moments when he exits the tunnel straight and needs to know where to go (like at :13 when you were looking ahead, he didn’t know which side to be on, and on the left/right soft turns where he jumped up a little when the connection was a little too soft). So for now, exaggerate the connection and then you can soften it as he gets older and more experienced. And the connection will help support the verbals too!
For the tunnel turn verbals, you can say them sooner – trust that he is committed to the tunnel after the first couple of tunnel cues, then when he is 3 or 4 feet from the entry, switch to the exit cues especially on the left/right turns. On the very last rep at 1:38 you said “run” before he entered – that is more like the timing and can be a little sooner!
From the training side:
I like the placed reward for the run reps and you can also throw the reward really early on those if you are not placing it in advance (throw it as soon as he is heading to the tunnel so it land before he exits). You can also throw reinforcement within the sequence, especially for the RUN moments (throw rather than cue the wing) and the left/right turns so he continues on his line after them.
One other suggestion – you can make the verbals more salient and individual by changing the pitch and rhythm in the delivery. I am not sure if you ever played in a band, but your verbals were in a distinct 4/4 time 🙂 and relatively same pitch which makes them sound a bit similar and harder to distinguish in the heat of the moment. So you can speed up the wraps and extend the left/right, and be softer on the turn cues and really loud on the run cues 🙂 All of that will make each sound ‘pop’ more so he can distinguish better as you are putting all the pieces together.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Congrats on his success in the Rally ring! I love training in different sports and competing in different sports – I debuted my young dog this weekend in flyball, using many of the games we are doing here! Cross training really helps 🙂
He did really well with the pattern game here in a new environment, I am really excited about how well he was offering engagement!
If he is engaged, and offering re-engagement really fast, you don’t need to keep working it because he probably won’t look away from you LOL!!! You can end the session or go do something else. And yes, try to stick to the one style of delivery in each session but he totally was happy here!
>>look at his strange reaction when I offer him food from my hand … if I was in motion he would have taken it .. but this scenario sees him not wanting to take it from my hand…any thoughts on this?
He looked like he was not sure if he should jump up to take it? You can offer it with your feet stationary and your hand moving really low, so he can chase your hand a bit.
Watching the remote reinforcement session:
A question about markers: are you using the same word (treaties) for cookies from hand and for the remote reinforcement? If so, I suggest a different one for the RR so he doesn’t get confused. If not, carry on 🙂
When working the RR game in a new environment, especially one as difficult as this: dial back the criteria 50% or more to set up success. So if he can do 4 steps with focus and no sniffing at home, try for 1 or 2 steps in the new environment. You were doing several steps so he was sniffing. So start with 1 step and then mark and reward. Then 2 steps, then 1 step. And when he is head up and not sniffing, try 3 steps 🙂 His response will let you know when you can add more steps 🙂 The environment is difficult plus he has a bit of sniffing history, so making this game super easy in the new place will really help us towards our goal of having him move with you with engagement and without sniffing 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyNo worries, I think he is still learning the parameters of new games and new cookie placement, so he just needs to see a couple of sessions then he will be very happy with it 🙂
TracyGood morning!
She did really well here!! Hooray!
Building up the RR game is so important and this session went really well! I think the most important element is simply getting the dog to choose rather than the human cuing all the things 🙂
When she is on leash… you can totally hold the leash, so it is normal to what she will see at a trial, as long as you don’t use the leash as a cue.
>>Of course we’ve done similar things but this was a little different, perhaps because we’ve been playing games lately and so maybe she’s more keen / curious about what new shenanigans I’m up to? But I’m telling you, I don’t think I’ve ever just walked along with her “off” leash at my side without feeling the need to make sure she’s paying attention. >>
My guess is that you might have previously played several steps down the road when we do ask for behavior… but that will fall apart quickly in higher distraction environments if the dog has not learned how to choose to leave the reward station in the first place. That’s why we just start with a couple of steps and no cues here. And there is no pressure so it is relatively easy, which makes for a high rate of reinforcement.
>>(that could say a lot more about me needing to chill a bit, as well).>>
Haha! Yes, chill is a great thing! NOT cuing something and still having engagement is critical. How is your engaged chill coming along? I will bug everyone about it because it is really important and so far there have been exactly zero video submissions on it from all the people in this class LOL! We are not a chill bunch LOL!
>>But what I learned in the segment not shown is that I need to give her a moment to finish chewing before walking away or she’ll just wait for me near the food. If I wait for her to look up after chewing then turn to walk away it becomes a together thing!
Yes – definitely let her finish the chewing. You can pick up the entire reward bowl or bag as you deliver the treat, let her finish it, then let her see you put it down to start the next rep – that can help cue that the next rep is starting, rather than walking away without a sense of readiness.
>>You’ll see at 1:25 the environment started to draw her focus away, so I experimented with a couple of “get it” tosses to bring her up a bit, then restarted Remote Reinforcement walkaways. This felt good – what are your thoughts?>>
I think that falls a little too much into the category of cuing the behavior versus letting her choose – so you can just wait for the offered engagement for now, let her see you put the reward down, and try it. If the environment draws her focus, move away from the environment because we don’t want to teach this in a distracting environment. The game is pretty distracting so for now, the environment should be relatively sterile (we will crank it up soon enough LOL!)
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>>> have you worked on any reward markers with him, like when the cookie is tossed versus handed to him I use yes/nice for marker and get it for ones I toss. I’m not as consistent on the hand feed especially if luring and a little soft spoken on the toss. These are more noticeable in the below with cookies on table.>>
Perfect! Keep working those, especially with toys
>> he was hilarious when you did the empty hand leg weaves and he looked around like you must’ve dropped the cookies hahahaha so funny! Yes, he keeps my class entertained and trainers shaking their heads. I call him Mr Fun. But he probably remembers that I did drop cookies when I was doing it during his fitness.>>
Yes, and I also think it shows us how convinced he is that there will be cookies in your hand. And that is fine for fitness but it can get us in trouble when we would like for him to run agility and there are no cookies! So I think the games will build up to where he can do all sorts of things with no cookies present 🙂
For example, on the leg weave video – I * think* your hand was empty as you were cuing it? Hard to see – but watch him reach for the hand with an open mouth, so he has a conditioned response to cookies being in your hand – which means he probably gets stressed and changes arousal state when there are no visible cookie or toy reinforcements.
>>What do you use for a line?
I use a long, light leash.
Cookies on the table: this is great and definitely an important step!
This was definitely harder! Note how his favorite trick, middle, was not as crisp on that very first rep – he kind of did it but then kept moving through and looked at you with a bit of a question in his facial expression. He was able to do all his tricks but not quite as well as with cookies in hands, which is fine (and normal) – that is exactly why we are doing this game, to help him understand how to do tricks without food in your hands (because agility is really one giant string of tricks :)) At the start of each session:
Try to drop your criteria back by about 50%, meaning – accept smaller bits of the behavior and reward sooner. You can get one rep and reward immediately, even with tricks that you might normally get 2 or 3 things in before a reward (like touches). And if there is a trick he can’t do (like reverse), then don’t ask for it at this point.
As the session went along, he got crisper and crisper with his responses – SUPER!!!So for this game – do another session or two, like this! We can move to the next step when he is responding the same as he does when there are cookies in your hand 🙂
Also – feel free to try this with toys (or cleaning implements :)) It is the same progression as with food – first the toy is in your hand and quite obvious, then it is on a table next to you.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyOMG! I love the Webster!
I know that we spend time and money trying to find the perfect dog toy… but I think you have them in the form of the Webster and the feather duster and maybe a little hand broom 🙂 I know dogs that have won world championships and their toy was a fly swatter or an empty water bottle LOL!! So if he likes these as toys, I highly recommend them!Another option to consider: cat toys. As long as there is not catnip and also that you don’t let him play with them on his own (they are easily destroyed), you might find that the feathery wonderfulness of a lot of cat toys are really appealing to him! I used cat toys a lot with my Papillons and other smaller dogs.
(Yes, it is a pain the butt to try to clean the house with the dog loving implements as toys, but he can chill in another room while you clean and then you will have a treasure chest of toys available :))
T
Good morning!
>>1. I have been working on the pattern game on walks. How fluent should the pattern be to continue verse bailing and moving further from distraction (ie squirrel in tree)? Is a 1 second look on each end okay, 5 seconds, 10 seconds? She was able to disengage without my signal but when I was what I would consider too close (based on her response) it was 10 seconds to disengage each end. I didn’t intend to make it that difficult and next time worked further away with much more fluency, but in the moment I couldn’t decide whether to immediately back up or continue with the slow responses (FYI it didn’t improve in several reps).>>
It will depend on history with the distraction, level of distraction, and if the latency shortens when she recognizes the game. So if the game is relatively new, it won’t be as easy to recognize in the face of squirrel excitement which as a longer history of being something to stare at 🙂 So if you get caught in a real life moment, you can play the game as you are moving away – start it with a get it rather than waiting for her to automatically disengage (if the game is not already underway) and throw that get it cookie in a direction that takes your further from the distraction. And if she gets ‘stuck’ you can totally move away to help her (10 seconds is a relatively long time, I am glad she could do it but yo can move her away to help shorten that up). The main thing will be what happens in the NEXT session so we have an idea of what she is learning. For training, for now, set things up so she is far enough away that she can respond within a second or two.
>>2. I the game where you leave the toy. I put it on the chair and rewarded 1-2 steps with great focus then pinged to 3 and she stopped dead. She didn’t go grab the toy but didn’t come for what felt like an eternity. What do I do in that moment – freeze and wait, continue walking, or call her reward and reset? I did a few more short and then she did 3 steps with focus and we quit. >>
So it was just that one time? That is not that unusual for dogs learning this game (I think the scientific abbreviation for it is “WTF” hahaha). You can freeze and wait with engagement, smile, breathe. And count in your head. If another 10 seconds go by with her being frozen, you can call her out of it and reset the game (I use a reset cookie there to avoid stress, that frozen moment at 3 steps is a stress sign).
I think it is GREAT we are seeing these behaviors because they are showing us where she doesn’t understand something and that is changing her ring behavior.
The nose work video is GREAT! I love that she enjoys it! And yes, that is a really lovely work state from her! If she really loves nose work and finds it relatively easy…. we put the remote reinforcement games into it (I don’t think anyone does nose work for RR, I have only ever seen the cookies with the handler). One of the reasons dogs love nose work is that the reinforcement gets to be VERY predictable – I really don’t see the stress we see in agility where reinforcement can be wildly unpredictable and almost never at the ‘source’ in competition.
I am a huge fan of cross training, so the nose work is great. It will help teach her skills that can be brought into agility! Is there even a time in nose work where the handler does NOT have the treats with her? Maybe you and Shelly can do nose work games where there are other dogs moving and around as distractions (I believe that nose work does not have other dogs present, right?) I need to get video today of how these games get played in the flyball setting, because using these games I was able to get Contraband to debut in flyball despite having never run in a 4 dog line up and never having run with a 4 dog team in the other lane (definitely not ideal LOL!!!) but his focus was incredible and reproduced the current state of his trained behavior, in the new cray environment.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
