Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi!
>>OK, I haven’t been doing this so will start this routine at my next trial which is the first weekend of June.Perfect! It should help him be more prepared for the environment at trials.
>>Oh, my I forgot all about that lead out. I will for sure do it next time.
I think he will like it – just do a short lead out so he doesn’t break the stay.
>>Ok, I was so excited that he was doing the course I forgot to reward him. I will try very hard to reward more when he is doing good.
That is the hardest thing, right? Rewarding when things ar egoing well is so hard but so important!
>> (no classes here)
Do you have a training group, or friends who can help add trial-like distractions?
>>So, for the trial first weekend in June, I should pull him from all runs that aren’t FEO. (FAST and T2B) (need to pull regular runs)>
I would definitely consider this, especially for the first runs of the weekend.
>>Then there is a local trial that I could enter him in FEO only the second weekend in June. (Not entered yet)>>
>>The third weekend is a local NADAC where he can run everything FEO. (I’m Trial Sec)>>
>>The fourth weekend UKI at Blue Springs all classes FEO (not entered yet)>>This is all perfect! And in the NADAC and UKI runs, you might be moving into the ‘real’ runs, which is great for venues like NADAC and UKI where there are lots of runs available each day 🙂
>>Did I miss commenting on anything else to work on? Thanks for all your feedback. Do you offer private feedback after the June 1 deadline that I could buy?>>
I think the Find My Face game will help him know where to look on course even if there is a disconnection. And the cartoon leadouts should be a fun game to add as well 🙂 In June, we start the CAMP class so that can be a place to keep building skills and getting feedback! Keep me posted!
TracyAh! Being in season would explain things, plus add in a little upset belly. I am sure that contributed GREATLY to her day on Saturday. Yay!
T
Hi!
>>Any suggestions other than looking at her to keep her path out and not coming into me. I mean when we’re going to the jump and I’m trying to stay over,she comes into me and then back out around the wing. Lateral running distance….that I’ll need.Two other things you can try –
take the bar out, and do it on just one wing – see if she can stay parallel to the outside of the wing (and still drop the reward as if there was a bar there as you move away :))
You can add lots of lateral distance on just the wing! The bar has a LOT of value, so taking it out for a bit will refresh the value of the parallel path behavior. You can also try using the opposite arm but I don’t think you will need it in the long run.Then when you add the bar back, rotate the jump 90 degrees so it is perpendicular to where it is now – so it is more of a 180 than a backside. All 3 wings will be in a line. Then you can gradually inch it back over to the backside position over the course of a few sessions, while still maintaining the understanding. Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
Have fun!
TracyHi! He is doing SO MUCH BETTER! The final stages are about getting into the harder environments likes classes, seminars, trials and working the games at the line with reinforcement (and 2 leashes so he can’t speed away :)) I put together some flow charts, I will go through them in the chat in about 90 minutes and then they will be posted 🙂
Hi!
>>I guess I didn’t really feel like I was blowing passed the steps because he’s done a good bit of seminars, run feo and ACT courses but my toys weren’t exactly hidden.>>
Bingo – lots of experience in Step 1, maybe a little in Step 2, in training environments. But very little experience in Step 1 in trials, and no experience in Step 2 and 3 – moving straight to step 4.
>>How will I know when to transition because lord knows I can stay at one step forever?
You will know when the behavior you get in the ring matches the behavior you get (and are happy with) at home. He enters with ring with engagement and can respond quickly to line up cues? Holds his stay? Finds the jumps on his line? Hits contacts and weaves? And so on – the trial runs should look pretty much like home training runs before you go to the next step.
>>I didn’t feel like I was having signs of stress in my runs but I don’t want to create stress either or shut him down.>>
Rather than discuss it as “stress”, which is an emotionally charged term and can be applied in weird ways (there is stress is everything, some of it is good stress!): think of it as arousal, latency, and accuracy. His arousal is lower (or higher, depending on the context, but not easily optimized), he is not as fast to respond to cues, and his accuracy wanes: looking around, missing jumps on the line, running past the table, missing contacts, etc. So while it might not match the classic signs of stress (yawns, sniffing, avoidance, etc) the behaviors we see in the ring match behaviors that stress can bring on, and the behaviors in the ring don’t match what we see at home. In the days before training in the ring, we would have to just deal with it and hope for the best (didn’t work out all that well!) but nowadays we can sit at each level of the training runs til the dog is fully confident and acting the same (or better!) than what you get in ‘home’ training 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyHi!
Looking at the Mac, if you right click on the page, you will get a window that has a print page option – so you can then print it with with Save As PDF option.On the iPad: if you press and hold on the text in the thread, a window comes up with Copy – Look Up – Share. Click Share. Then another window comes up and you can either “save to files” or Drive (if you swipe left on the icons) or swipe left and you will see More (3 dots) which can give you more options for saving it 🙂
>>Will the Forum still be there after today? Can I go back and view their videos and print my feedback, later?>>
Yes, totally! The forum is here forever!
Tracy
Hi!
>>One question with the wing wrap straight out of the tunnel – Would it be the go command before she enters the tunnel and then the wrap verbal while she is in the tunnel (or exiting)? that is what I have been trying to do but wondering.>>
This will depend on the dog and how she naturally exits the tunnels – if she exits the tunnels looking straight down the line naturally, you probably don’t need the go 🙂 If she is more likely to turn and look at you? Then yes, add the Go. I have 2 dogs that need the Go and 1 dog that does not need it there. If you use it, the Go happens before they enter the tunnel (at least a meter before) and then generally the wrap cue happens while they are in the tunnel and no later than exiting.
On the video – she did really well here! You can say go more frequently especially when you are lateral or behind, to keep supporting the line. If you get quiet, especially if the Go happens while she is in the tunnel, you might have to rely on body language – that is fine for when you are close enough to the line and easily ahead, but a repeated verbal will be helpful when you are not as much in the picture. So you can say go while she is in the tunnel, but then say it again at least once when she exits (and when you are behind her, say it a couple more times :))
>.She is figuring out her striding to the jump bunp on the various reps, changing it some.
That is because the distance was changing. She will see the distances on a jump in a grid first, so it should be fine when you use a bar here.
I think you can add in the Rear Cross game to this one too! Great job!
TracyHi!
>> I definitely need the bar to stay over…I would follow the jump and then set in at the last minute. I couldn’t keep her out on the path. And she really just wanted to go around the jump.>>
Because she is new to the backsides, there are some things we can do to help her out:
– drop the reward in as soon as she arrives at the entry wing to help develop the default behavior of jumping the bar, rather than waiting to see if she takes it then rewarding (or helping her with handling) – waiting and helping get her looking at you more.
– you can use a longer bar too, which is easier to come over, this one looked a little short LOL!
– angle the jump so that the entry wing is pointing more towards the start wing and the exit wing is closer to the camera/further from the tunnel. That way, as she comes around the entry wing, she will see the bar a lot better and come over it more easily.Angling the jump will also help her find the entry wing more easily – the other thing that will help her is more connection – you were looking ahead so she was looking at you. On the first several reps, you used your running line to help her so it was when you moved over that it was harder.
to see the power of connection on the backsides as you move forward, watch :37-:38 and the following reps, and also later at 149: as you moved up the line there, you were not looking at her so she came into you. When you reached the jump, you connected and she went to the backside. The connection turns your upper body to the line, so you can connect to her eyes sooner (as soon as she exits the start wing) so you are connecting the whole time and running up the line.
She did do really well on the countermotion exits, so now you can move forward even more!
>.I just won’t have the tunnel distraction but it really wasn’t.>>
the visual of the tunnel *might* have been a tiny distraction playing into why she had trouble finding the bar, so that is even more of a good reason to take the tunnel out for now 🙂
Great job! Have fun with this and the starfish game!
Tracy
Hi! Lots of great work here!
Backside video – he is finding the backside wing really well! The further away you get from the entry wing, the more you will want to connect, so add a little more connection to his eyes when you are across the bar. And keep dropping the lotus ball in really early, just as he is arriving at the wing, so he automatically looks for it. I think you were waiting a little too long so he was considering going past it on a few reps. You can add more of your motion to this now (jogging!), And since the backyard is challenging, to get more engagement you can use a toy or a ball, or tie the lotus ball to a line and use it like a toy by dropping it then moving it around for him to chase 🙂
Tunnel threadles:
Yes. that first rep was unclear, but everything was much clearer after that and he was responding beautifully!
You can use a wrap verbal on the wing before the tunnel threadle to help him know it is coming and give your kiss kiss verbal sooner (as soon as he arrives at the wrap wing).
>>On the threadle I felt like I didn’t know what I was supposed to be doing with my upper body.
I personally like using the outside arm on these, across the body. Your feet go towards the tunnel entry you want, and your opposite arm can be up by the dog-side shoulder – it is an easy cue for the dog to see especially when you are behind him.
Lateral lead outs – He did a great job figuring out the commitment on the first part of the session, and you did a great job adjusting your mechanics in the 2nd part! He looked really good!! Two little suggestions: watch him as you lead out so he doesn’t stand up (and definitely look at the stay before the release, and reward lots) and also, connect before the release (look at him and not at the jump) and give the cues while being connected to him and not looking forward at the jump.
For the handling for jump 2, when you have more room you will be able to move through a serp on landing side of 2 (when you are on takeoff side of 1, or do a FC and run (when you are on the landing side of 1). This is a good one to take outside, so you can add the handling for jump 2 as well.
Rear crosses – I think this is a perfect one for outside, because being able to run will get the Go happening better, and will also help you set up the RC better. Doing it at a walk made it harder to show what you wanted. On the go, you can accelerate more outside for sure, but your verbal was energetic here and it helped! You will want to be able to run on all of these, so it will work a lot better outside. And yes, left/right for the rear works better than silence or Go, but also the physical cues are important. Bearing in mind that you will have more room outside, you had a bit of a Goldilocks and the 3 Bears thing happening as you sorted out the rear cross timing:
Too early: At 1:00 and 2:01 you were early so you pushed him off the line
Too late: At 1:32 and 1:40 and 2:16 you were late – you moved forward towards the “go” wing for too long, he was already on his right lead turning right, when you started to show RC info.
Just right! You got onto the rear cross pressure earlier (but not too early :)) at 1:47 and 2:27, so he was passing you and seeing the bar, but also before he made the decision about which way to turn.
When you take it outdoors, you can give yourself an extra 10 feet of space, s you can show the rear cross diagonal (running more to the center of the bar as he is exiting the start wing) sooner without pushing him off the line.
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
Tracy>>Wheeewww I got to sleep in this morning to a whopping 6:30 😴
6:30 is practically midday!
>>I need to keep hearing this. I’m hoping to do UKI in a couple of weeks so I can bring the toy in and do a ton of feo. I’m toying with the idea of the USDAA regional with some FEO thrown in because it’s more chill and generally a supportive environment.
Write it on a post it and put it on your bathroom mirror! UKI allows NFC ni any class. The USDAA regional allows it in all non-regional tournament classes. I am bugging everyone about skipping steps: going from Step 1 (FEO just like home, visible toy) to Step 4 (full runs, all the things, no reward in the ring) is incredibly hard for the dog and can be stress-inducing for most dogs… especially if they have not yet worked to steps 3 and 4 (running sequences and courses without reinforcement on the handler) in training classes or seminars.
>>My goal is to run him in something at the open-idk if that’s unrealistic or not but I need something to work towards>>
It is realistic, but it is an outcome goal. Process goals will get you to the outcome goals.
>> I really liked him in between my feet- but 8.5 minutes is too long for anything. I got him out at 7 dogs before with only 2 height changes…
7 dogs in a standard course is about 7-8 minutes, and each height change is about 2 minutes, so you might be able to narrow it to more like moving to the ring area with 4 or 5 dogs if there are height changes.
>>I did get the down but what started my spiral is that I asked for a through my legs to come on my side. He didn’t get that correct and just did the down.>>
In that moment, just go with it – he was able to respond to *something* even it if was not perfect. I think the bending over to cue it is a bit too much pressure there which is why you got the down.
>>When you say cartoon crouch do you mean like at home or is it something I did on the runs?
At about :30 you moved away and crouched a bit, and bent youer knees at hthe start of the run. He seemed to like it and was fast and focused on the release! Moving away takes the pressure off. And when you bend your waist or knees, lean away from him, not towards him.
>> We’ve been going directly to cheese. He stands patiently for me to put his leash on- like we’ve done it that way for centuries 🤣
and that is fine – leash on, run to cheese. Plant the reward station nearby or have someone standing by so it is easy access if there are challenging dogs around.
>>I’m struggling as mention with the mental game. I can’t control the environment and just part of my having reactive dogs was always being aware of what’s around.
Step 1 of all good mental prep programs is always to focus on what you CAN control, not what you CANNOT control. You can be aware, you can control your plan, your responses. You cannot control the other dogs, the environment. etc. Focus on what you can control.
>> This layout was another thing that stressed me. It wasn’t super easy to get away on Saturday. Sunday was much better because everyone left and I could get out. He was also less reactive Sunday because no Irish setters scared him.>>
So you can note the environment and then plan how you are going to respond to it – getting to reward nearby, or having someone there, or running away fast, etc.
>>If you have any 🧠 prep with instructors that you recommend, lmk. I don’t do the best with independent studies.
Kathy Keats might have something, let me take a look! And maybe Kathleen Oswald too?
>>Interacting with feedback gives me dopamine as opposed to none on my own.>>
My guess is that is it oxytocin and/or serotonin more than dopamine for most of it (dopamine is really not always our friend LOL!!!!)
Tracy
Hi!
>> On our way home from a RV trip to Florida for a mini family reunion. The 4 sisters were finally all able to get there at the same time to spread my Mom’s ashes. It actually all worked out well, Mother’s Day weekend and the first year anniversary of her passing, it all just seemed right ❤️
That is so amazing, I am so glad you were able to do it!!
>> Lots of opportunities for Pattern Games and instant focus with the car keys, quick hand touches and sits in all sorts of new places with all sorts of new distractions.
Yay! I am sure he was great and got lots of reinforcement in all sorts of new environments 🙂
>>Changing subjects on you….do you have any interest/availability for “seminar tour of New England”? Jennifer Johnson and I are trying to figure out how to work with you on person! She loved the seminar she attended in Florida. >>
A seminar tour of New England would be super fun! The challenge is finding dates. Is there a time frame you are looking at? Winter makes things really hard in terms of planning travel, so maybe spring/summer/fall?
Thanks! Safe travels home!
TracyHi! Lots of good stuff here and plenty of big distractions to play with too! She did really well!
Looking at the videos, I think we can start to form her process more specifically! Each dog helps us define what they need in different scenarios, and I think this helps us figure it out for her by doing it in a high distraction environment!
On the first part of the video, this looked like a kind of a mashup between pattern games and volume dial – the delivery of the cookie was like a pattern game, but there were tricks and you were using “ready” to draw her back to you. She likes things to be very clear, so two ideas for you:
– do the pattern game, first thing, in new environments. This is where the food gets tossed, and you are not cuing behavior or saying ready or doing any pop ups – you are just standing still, or walking back and forth, being cookie-throwing-in-chief. The calm ‘get it’ toss is what starts the game. Then, when you are seeing relatively low latency in terms of her re-engaging with you, move to the volume dial games:
– the volume dial games (the ‘ready’ word, the pop ups, etc) have more energy in the cues and in the cookie delivery: you can be moving more, and the cookies now come from your hands and she can chase you a bit for them.That will help her make a better distinction between the pattern games (which say to her: assess the environment and re-engage when you are comfy) and the volume dial games (which say to her: let’s get you pumped up!). If she is still feeling the need to assess the environment, then the volume dial games will be harder.
And you can add in the remote reinforcement game as step 3 to this – a bit of a pattern game (til she says, “this is fine”) then a bit of volume dial til she seems more pumped up – then you can put the rewards on the reward station and go into the remote reinforcement game. The outside-the-ring environment is very challenging, so that is why you can use all 3 games in a step-by-step fashion – and that will also mirror the pre-run routine, which makes for a great rehearsal for actual runs too!
Let me know if this makes sense, in terms of showing her each piece in order and observing her response to know when to move to the next step. Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
Lots of good stuff here!
>>As you know I have been focusing on the pattern games, engagement and recall work. I’ve also been working on adding new behaviors like a bark on demand, and some front paw value using a bowl as offered behavior.>>
The bark on demand is starting to develop nicely! And if the bowl has value as something you want her to offer behavior on, be sure you remove it as a distraction from the other side of the jump in training.
Video 1: Overall this went well! A couple of suggestions for you:
For the pattern games: do those first, on leash, and without any volume dial or tugging or tricks *before* them. The pattern games are intended to be done in a natural state of arousal, so that the dogs learn to assess the environment, disengage from distractions and re-engage with us, without us helping or cuing behavior. It teaches the dogs the coping skills for the internal state that they find themselves in with distractions. And definitely use the leash, because it is realistic to the various situations she will need to learn about. I train on leash at home all the time, it makes it very easy to deal with the leash at trials and classes!
The volume dial games look good in this environment, especially with the tugging. I am glad you are getting the barking on cue!
One thing to note is that you don’t have to mix up all of these games within a couple of seconds of each other. For example, the instant focus game is not a home game – it is a randomized environment coping game, with no volume dial or pattern games before it and no obvious reinforcement til after she interacts with the prop. Doing all of thse games as a mashup starts to get a little muddy, like when you were cuing barkin but she was on the instant focus prop. Think of it as more of a step-wise progression and not jumping around as much.. For example, I will do pattern games in new environments (or challenging environments) until the dog tells me she is ready for the next step. She will tell me by looking at me and not enaging with the distractions. If I toss a treat and she looks at me immediately after getting the treat (like the demo of Contraband entering the ring area at the flyball tourament), then she is ready for the next step. If I toss a treat and the dog does NOT immediately look back at me – then I stick to pattern games for longer until the dog can look back at me immediately (and move away from the distractions if needed).
And if you think she is ready so you start some volume dial tricks and she can’t respond or she is much slower to respond (high latency)? Go back to pattern games.
When you moved to the grass, this is a good example of when you should be on the pattern games for longer. She was not realy able to engage in that environment yet, so she couldn’t respond to the tricks cues – and it gets stressful for both of you when that happens. So, move her further away and go back to pattern games til she is very engaged.
** I totally understand that it is INCREDIBLY hard to not cue behavior and to stand still and observe, letting her drive the bus. But is it critically important, and observing her behavior will give you a much better handle on how to help her in other environments as well – the volume dial really only works when the dog is already able to offer engagement, so getting the offered engagement is the first and most important step **
You can use Mimi as a distraction for the Kryptonite games, and it was definitely harder for Skipper! For now, though, she was not successful enough to move to the next step of Mimi being right there next to her. That is already anxiety inducing terriers, and that pressure was also really hard for Skipper: note how the responses got slower and she couldn’t really tug. It was too much pressure, Mimi being *rightthere* suppressed Skipper’s behavior. So be sure to note the rate of success (high or low) and the latency: if the success rate drops and her responses get slower – dial back the distractions rather than keep asking for behavior in the same location. I would leave Mimi on the other side of the fence for several sessions, til Skipper can completely ignore her, can tug, and can respond with low latency.
Video 2:
>>In this session I started with some treats in my pocket but she saw me put the treats on fence post where most of the rewards were coming from.That is fine, she can see where the rewards are, and there were a lot of good remote reinforcement reps here. What is your RR marker? You were using “ok” but I think that is your release from a stay marker?
>> I started with the fence gate open and I think this through her off a bit. The neighbor next door was also walking back and forth in the driveway. When she is in the fenced in yard on her own she will often bark at the children playing on the driveway so I think this contributed to latency, as well as the fact that we had to go to the rewards which were behind her.>>
Yes, it was a bit of a kryptonite session especially if she has a history of alternate behavior there. It is also a good place to use your leash, to get the leash on, leash off process fully part of daily life. That leash off, offered engagement is a critical piece and I don’t see it here – it is going to be a massive piece of your puzzle so raise it in priority so you can condition an engaged response to the leash coming off (whether you carry her in or not, doesn’t matter, do it both ways :))
>>I liked watching this session because as we worked together her response rate and engagement improved.>>
Yes, she is doing well! Be sure to note the level of difficulty and make it easier if she struggles (she sometimes struggled with the left/right spins. Also, ping pong the amount of behavior you ask for if you are doing the remot reinforcement games so it doesn’t get perptually more difficult. Do some really easy reps in there too.
In these scenarios, get more toy play involved! Tug toys, balls, treat huggers, anything she likes other than cookies from your hands because cookies from your hands are the one thing we can’t use for NFC. And the NFC runs are what will bridge the gap between training and trialing 🙂
Seminar video:
>> This video was painful to put together because it was so obvious to me what happened over time
>>Lots of good information here.I have a list of ideas for you…. but I think it might be better if you start by detailing why she struggled and making the list of what you would have done differently, and will do differently next time? Then I will add to if it anything is missing, or just give you a high 5 if you have it all sorted 🙂
Let me know what you think! Send me your ideas on how to changes things for the seminar context!
Tracy
Hi!
>>. I think having a noise buffer may be key for her right now. The fans were awesome for this!!!
yes, I am totally a fan of noise buffers! Fans, music, anything that helps.
>>Will you send me the link for the seminar?
Here it is:
https://fb.me/e/2jAHu1JomShould be an interesting seminar!!!!
Tracy
