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Hi!
I think she did well here! She was nice and tight on the wing and jumps! She made strong adjustments around the wing and really can’t he tighter. Yay!!Yes, she was stimulated when you added the other wing, but I didn’t see much of the jumping up. Yes, lots of noise though LOL! She might have been doing that because it was too much to do all of those levels in one day and she was brain-tired. Or, it might have been that you were not moving enough to be clear. Your arm back was good, so keep the water bottle going and just use food so you don’t need 3 arms. And you can move a bit more too, I think that will help.
Definitely try it again when she is a bit more rested and see how it goes – try it at the beginning of a session, rather than the end, and let me know how it goes!
TracyHi!
This is a really important game for him!! I’m glad he is figuring it out.
He just needs to see this setup for several sessions as you oh-so-gradually add motion. This is the one game where you don’t need balance reps for now (you added the soft turn and a rear cross, but resist those for a few more sessions): we don’t want him to think about turning or not turning, we just want to get the turning super conditioned so it is second nature.You were jogging on these, and he did well. Yay! So next session, build to running and keep doing the countermotion exit that you had here. You’ll know when he is ready for more when he gets the first rep correct 🙂
When you can run, keep the setup but change your exit line: instead of the countermotion, you can do a more normal FC back towards the camera here. 🙂 start that one walking then work up to running. No rush to get the jump involved yet, we can do a lot on the wing.
This is a great camera angle to see him jumping up at you and barking 🙂 2 examples (:42 and :58) show your hand low but close to your side – he drifted wide behind you and barked/jumped. I think he finds it disconnected. So, try your hand further back, fingers towards his nose, and make a much more direct eye contact as you move up the line. Let’s see if that helps him drive smoothly to the wing rather than to your hand or back.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I really liked this session! High success in all ways: he got all the wraps correctly, he got all the go reps correctly, you were able to add more motion, and most importantly… he was really working on his mechanics to make the wraps!!!! And his hind end stayed below his shoulders the whole time: HUZZAH!!!so for the next session, warm up with this setup and then add a wing before it (with you not moving too fast).
About the jumping up at your right hand on the left turns – I think he finds the arm send disconnecting and maybe frustrating, so he jumps up and barks. On the right wraps, you didn’t really use your left hand, and he didn’t jump up and bark. Aha!
So when you add the wing wrap before the 2 jump setup, try it with your dog-side arm locked back and not pointing forward. Let your motion, connection and verbal indicate the line and see how he does 🙂
Nice work!
TracyHi!
She is doing well with finding the wraps! I will trust that your verbals were all correct, because I could only hear Veloz’s verbals lolYou did have motion happening, but it was mainly after she got to the wing. She doesnt need to see you past the wing before she turns on these, we want to focus on motion before the wing. So now, reverse the motion you had here for the next session so she sees you moving more on the way to the wing:
Start her a little further back, with your hand on her collar. As you start to say the verbal, let go and walk forward ( don’t send her). That will let us know if she can still wrap with motion.
Then if she is fine with that for a few reps, you can repeat the process with you jogging. Don’t try to handle, just move forward while she is moving forward.And if that goes well, you can add the wing before this setup so both of you can have more motion into it.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Really nice sessions here! I think some of the video had duplicate parts but there were a ton of nice reps.
He was better turning to his left here. On the right wraps, he was lifting his head and a bit wider – I couldn’t tell if he was a little weaker on the right turns, or if he was gazing longingly at the dog walk lol
You can test and see if it was the dog walk distraction bit reversing setup so the right turn was away from the DW.On the left wraps -he did really well with you adding motion like at :38 – he collected to turn even though you were running forward. That is EXACTLY what we want: turn on the verbal cue no matter what the momma is doing.
He also did that at 3:48 and 4:01 at the end. Super!He was improving the right turns and at 4:07, he really had a light bulb moment and had a great turn there.
2 ideas for you:
With the verbal cues, say the cue multiple times. Say it from the exit of the previous wrap all the way to his takeoff point, to really support the line. You did this on the very last rep at 4:37.And, now try this with toys! The toys will add challenge because he will be more excited, and that is great because he will be pretty excited when he runs courses 🙂
And, with a toy you can reward sooner, especially on the Go reps.
The Go reps looked good, but definitely throw the reward sooner because he is looking at you and we want his head straight.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
On the first video, he definitely found the game a bit challenging! You helped with body language on the 2nd and 3rd reps so he was able to sort it out and resist the temptation of the jump 🙂
He was still sorting it out, with the wing added before it – you can see him looking at the temptation jump but finishing the wrap, good boy!!Two Jumps- this went well, he was definitely getting the collections and turning on the correct side of the bar. Super! He was definitely thinking hard, though, so I think the next couple of sessions can be just like this one with one tweak: don’t help with handling. What I mean by that is you can walk forward until after he makes the decision- then either FC and run for the reward if it was a wrap cue. Or, throw the toy straight for the go. Taking out the FC before the wrap decision will really help him process it independently of body language.
And placing the toy for the Go reps is helpful… but you can leave it out there for the wraps too! That will let us know if he really is processing the Go versus the wrap 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyTo keep things in one place, here is the reply that should have come through in the email:
>I would like my dogs to collect and wrap nicely but I have managed to teach both Enzo and Patt to dive into a position just after the jump, instead of collecting. At the start of my video I drew a picture, in case that isn’t clear.
Yes, the picture was clear! Thanks!
The actual jump is 4 feet past the wing. My rumba thing makes an appearance but we ignored it.The rumba thing was HILARIOUS. (and it has a nice tight right turn lol)
Quote of the day:
“It won’t hit you or maybe it will, whatever” hahaha!>>As I review the video, I see that he isn’t very close to the wing when it is just a wing. I guess I should have seen that and stayed at that level.
Yes! He was very good – but definitely processing and looking a bit straight. One thing that we will rally focus on with him is to NOT add handling to help him. We want to have you not have to rely on being ahead or being rotated – so on this setup, sending him around the red upright was a great way to begin each rep. Stick clsoe ot the red upright and as he is exiting that wrap, you can be walking straight forward and saying the verbal (no decel, no rotation, just moving forward). When he makes a decision to collect and turn, then you can do a FC and run and reward. So basically you will be doing a late FC but that is also part of the reinforcement for the collection decision.
What he did here was very good, totally rewardable. And you see him continue to get tighter when he doesn’t have to think about it as much – and that will continue as you add more and more motion.
>> I think his “dig” side (right wrap) is better.
Possibly! You can test the theory by starting with the dig side next time and then going to the check (just be sure that you are consistent with the verbals – yuo had dig going on the right turns then a couple of checks snuck in then back to digs).
>>I sent him over the jump a couple of times to try and see if he was collecting.
The GO balance will make more sense to him when you do it on 2 jumps – he figured it out here but the difference in wrap versus go will be even more obvious on 2 jumps.
>>When I got the toy out, I thought he looked good on the wing wraps,
Yes – after the first rep or two, if he has the general idea, definitely use the toy for all of this. If something proves to be too difficult., we can dial it back but I think the toy will be very helpful for raising arousal. He did have a good one at 2:44 but that is where you can use less handling – just run forward and yell the word 🙂 If needed, move the red upright further back so that you have more space to add motion without needing to decelerate. In my mind, I picture him driving ahead of you into the turn, kind of like the turn on the video we talked about on Monday. You were closest to this at 2:53, you were moving but not really helping too much.
>>so I set up the 16” jumps. That is when he immediately went into dive-bomb mode.
Not too much dive bombing!! I think the first rep was a surprise to him: “Wait, there is a 16″ jump there now?!?!?” This is particularly so becuase he was tugging, facing the other way – then you took the toy and BOOM went right into it so he had very little time to process. I totally would reward that because he maintained enough criteria – did not take the distraction jump and did put a little collection in before the bar. It is not what it will be eventually, but for a first (and surprising) attempt, pretty good!
The turns on the 16” jump at 2:58 and 3:00 in particular were both rewardable, within the criteria on. the takeoff side. he hestitates a tiny bit to balanc eon the mats before driving around but that is fine and he won’t need to do it on grass or turf. At 3:04 (last rep) – you were very helpful, too helpful LOL! witha lot by body language. He did slow down to turn but it was not that different than 3:00 (which was pretty darned nice!)
>>> I tried running up and decelerating and that seemed to help but defeats the point of teaching him.>>
Correct, totally agree – any time you get tempted to help with decel and rotation and getting ahead, try dialing back the speed of your motion and juts moving forward, no handlng “help”.
>>SHOULD I HAVE JUST STARTED AT 8 inches??>>Yes 🙂 A wing to 16″ is a giant leap in the levels. Letting him sort this first at 8 or 10 inches so you can be able to run like mad, yell the thing and get the desired collection is the starting point.
Keep me posted about how he does at 8″!
TracyHi!
>> So how do you define a soft and hard turn?
A hard turn is a wrap, where the dog comes all the way around the wing. A soft turn is a 90 degree turn, where the dog lands roughly parallel to the bar but does not come around the wing. The wrap and soft turn definitions are here:
>> At the first part of the session, she was obsessing on the frisbee on the ground causing her to go wide.
Ha! That would explain it LOL!
Hi!
Great job on with the session here! She is SO FUN!!Either the video didnt have sound or my internet has gone bonkers (which is very possible), because I couldn’t hear the verbals but I could see you talking to her LOL!
Her commitment is very strong and she is very speedy, which might be why you felt like you were not moving a lot on the wing reps – you were moving plenty, but she is fast so you didn’t have far to go before she committed.
So one thing that will help is to spread out the first wrap wing even more from the wing-jump setup, that’ll give you more room to move forward.
Also, you can handle less by moving forward until she makes a choice to wrap the wing (it will feel like a late front cross :)) Your handling was REALLY nice – for example, check out the lovely timing and rotation on the front cross at 1:14!
But to help her learn the verbals, you don’t need to support the turns with handling – just move towards the wing and use the verbal 🙂 when she turns, you can front cross and run as part of the reward.When you went to 2 jumps – nice go lines! Those were easy for her. Yay!
For the wraps, you can definitely move more on those, this might be where you felt like you were not moving a lot – try starting with your hand on her collar then let go and move forward. That can feel less like a send and you’ll be able to move more.I think she didn’t get a reward at 3:09? Looking at it on the video, it was a good turn so you can reward.
For now, anything that isn’t taking that second jump on a wrap cue is rewardable 🙂
The only other question she had was at 3:51 – that was you stepping to the backside as you were indicating the jump, so just move straight up the line to the wrap wing, don’t try to handle or step or send. You might be trying to step to take off and you don’t need to for her – she has great commitment!!!So for the next session, try the wing wrap to the 2 jumps, with you moving forward but not trying for any timely front crosses or stepping to the jump.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Good session here! Thanks for leaving the “naughty” in LOL! It is very useful:Interesting frustration behavior from him when he was incorrect on the 2nd rep and he took the toy and left. Clearly the marker and withholding reinforcement was too much punishment (I know it seems like it shouldn’t be, but he says it is, and the dog gets to make that decision)
So if he has an error, call him back and reset him at your side with a cookie. I think that will be much more happy-making than a “you’re wrong” moment and should keep him in the game better. He definitely finds this game hard, because even on the correct reps, he is still a little wide (it would look like turning on landing).
After 1:27, he was starting to get tighter, which is great! We are definitely going to build on that, because he was really starting to turn before the wing. Yay!
No need for a go cue when it is just a wing – that is confusing, because he would have to ignore the wing (go only really applies to bar, and we don’t really want him ignoring the wing). Looks like the tooth hug/belly punch was produced by that (1:57 ish) because the go didn’t make sense and he had been wrong. So you also reset with cookies after errors like that, to help protect your flesh lol
And sounds like Callie had the same question on the go: “why would we ignore the wing??” The Go applies to the first jump when you have 2 jumps there, it is not just permission to take the second one 🙂
I think we give him one more session like this with the wing (only wraps, no go) with you increasing your motion… then onwards to adding the jump. He was really starting to get the collection nicely!!
Nice work 🙂 let me know what you think!
TracyHello and welcome!!!
Several folks have said the same thing about training tons of verbals but having trouble using them at trials. I’m going to add some humans games for that LOL!
Have fun!
TracyHi!
Interesting that she hit the wing on the first rep! She didn’t do that again but we will definitely keep an eye on it! She also hit the bar turning right on the first rep, so we can add in some games later on to help her be super successful on the first reps.She did a good job on the wing but was rounding her line more than collecting – so adding the jump definitely made it harder!!! She approached the jump a little differently each time, it was actually pretty interesting to see her work it out! She started over the bar with hitting it and then had some wider turns… but got better and better each time. Yay! And she was definitely more balanced by the end.
Because she hadn’t done the same thing twice over the bar on this session 🙂 give her a day off from it then do the same exact session again (with the 2 jumps, not the wing and jump). I bet latent learning kicks in and you’ll see her be able to produce consistent, tight turns while you add more motion.
And also, with 2 jumps, have them about 6 feet apart so you can also use your GO verbal as a balance.
Great job! Let me know how she does in the next session!
TracyHi!
The session went well!
No need for balance reps when it is just the wing – it doesn’t make a lot of sense to the dogs, because it asks her to ignore the wing which we dont want her to do. The “go” reps come in when we add 2 jumps 🙂She did well sorting out the wraps nicely – she was figuring out that it was not just going straight, but it was hard enough that she wasn’t tight yet – she is still processing so the turning was happening a bit late (if there was a bar there, she would be landing then turning).
So for the next session, keep the same setup (but only do wraps). You’ll know when you can go to the next step (more motion and the wing before it) when you see her decelerating and starting to bend before the wing.
It will probably only take one more session.About the jump verbal – jump and go might be redundant? Or jump might not be a full on extension, it might be more of a semi-extension followed by a slight turn (which is perfectly fine, I use it like that :))
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHello and welcome!!
>> I realized I’m not quite sure how the dog should really look over the bar when jumping right/left. I guess what I’m unsure of is if their body should be more “turned” over the jump or if they actually end up kind of slicing it in the direction of the turn. So better understanding how they really setup for a right/left and where the bulk of the turning happens would help me get a better picture in my head.
This is a good question! What the turn looks like on the takeoff side and over the bar will depend on 2 things:
– how the dog is built
– the angle of approach in the sequence (which can vary, depending on the course design)But in general, the dog will be jumping on the part of the bar that is halfway between the center and where the bar meets the wing. And the dog should be looking in the new direction. On easier angles of approach, it will look like a slice. You’ll see more collection on harder angles of approach.
>> My other question was in differentiating between a 90 degree left say for a 180 and the more gradual left for say a 45 degree pinwheel. Especially if a judge sets it up so both are options with say the pinwheel being the off-course. I know we’ve used the arm for right/left before, but I wasn’t sure on verbals vs handling>[
For me, it will depend on how I want the dog to land and the timing of the cue. If the middle jump of the pinwheel requires a turn where the dog need to land roughly parallel to the bar, the I would use the left or right turn verbal. If it is more of a gentle arc, then a name call or general jump cue will work.
And if I don’t want the middle jump, then I would time a left or right verbal a lot sooner so the dog knows which jump I want the turn on.
Let me know if that makes sense!
Tracy
