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Good morning!
>> And it’s interesting how I don’t fling for the first rep but do for the second😂😂!
You have gone into a higher state of arousal LOL!
>> I will give it try tomorrow, with water not my coffee yet lol!
Yes, start with water before going to something precious like coffee 🙂
>>Why does this dog insist on pushing me so hard😂! I get away with NOTHING! She has instituted nothing in life is free for me😂. She’s one of those dogs that changes everything.>>
I agree! She will lead you down new paths – it might not be easy at first but the results will be so completely worth it!!!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>I haven’t named soft or hard turns at jumps/tunnels because I haven’t trained them. I WISH I had both.
It is relatively easy to apply the verbals to tunnels – generally use the verbal about 4 to 6 feet before the dog enters the tunnel, and place the reinforcement on the desired exit line. The dogs catch on really quickly!
>> How to define/differentiate them is something that I am not clear on. I’ve also thought about teaching a verbal for 180*’s. Do you think that is something that would be useful?>>
I use my left/right verbals for those. So you can teach a separate 180 verbal, but you might not need to.
On the video –
the wing and jump combo is definitely challenging for her! It was interesting that she was not sure about moving forward to the wing on that first rep. She got better after that, but with the added motion, she was definitely wider on the wing (you noted it, thinking maybe she was looking for a thrown toy? But it might just be that without ‘handling’ it, she was finding it hard to process the verbals and that is fine – the more we expose her to this, the easier it gets to process the verbals 🙂In the middle of the video, you had the bar pretty tall – that was too big of a skip ahead, so I am glad you went back to the lower bars – that is where she will get more of her processing done. I think she did well on those! One question – at :48, it sounds like you told her “oh no” and didn’t reward… but on the reps after that, she produced basically the identical behavior and got rewarded. It is possible that she touched the bar on the rep at :48 but I would still reward that for two reasons:
– we humans are incredibly inconsistent about rewarding or not rewarding when the dogs touch a toe nail to the bar. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t… and that is confusing to the dogs. So for now, just reward even if you think you heard her tick the bar.
– by the time we realize the dog has ticked a bar, the decision that caused it is miles in the rear view mirror for the dog so she is not likely to know why she is not getting rewarded. So she slowed herself down on the rep after that but we don’t want her to slow downSo for now, just ignore anything about the bar and reward anything that is within criteria (which she was there). Let me know if that makes sense!
I think she is ready for you to add the wing wrap before the 2 jump setup. Go back to walking forward like you did here, that was great! Nice work – let me know how she does!
TracyHello and welcome! I am excited to see you and Sly play these games!!!
Totally understandable that you want to start with one wrap cue. The key is to prioritize – what is important? Train that. Then you can add more later, or not! If we try to train ALL the things, it is easy to get overwhelmed and end up training nothing LOL!
>>Hope I don’t regret that and well….if I find out I really need separate ones then we’ll just have another training project 🙂>>
You won’t regret it – either you will find your way cue is all you need, or you might at some point decide to add another. Either way is a winning situation!
>>On a totally separate subject….Sly offered to tug with his leash last week at a trial while we were waiting on line for the ring crew to change the table legs 🙂 WOOHOOO!!!!>>
YAY SLY!!!! That is exciting!! I am glad to hear he is feeling so comfy in the ring!
Tracy
Hi! Good session here! Her jumping looks good – she is setting her hind end well, not flinging herself, and creating really nice fast lines, so I am happy to continue to let her sort it out. At the moment, she is finding the right balance of the ‘go fast’ and the ‘turn tight’ 🙂 so as long as she knows where she is going and responds to the cues, we are going to let her keep doing that.
She really only had one error moment (2 in a row) – it could have been her looking at the toy on the ground at the left turn, then realizing she was wrong and offering going straight when you wanted the right turn. But otherwise, she was strong here on her wraps 0 see below for ideas on next steps.Her main question was about going straight! The “jump” verbal and the placement of reinforcement out ahead are not synced, in her view. She just didn’t seem to know to look for the reward out ahead on the straight line balance reps. It is possible that the reward marker “toss” has built in looking at you and the toy being tossed from you (and she is used to seeing that). So when you said ‘toss’ on the straight line reps, she wanted to look at you.
I like all of my directionals to also predict/imply placement of reinforcement, so you can break down the ‘jump’ verbal to just mean ‘toy out ahead’ without a marker that might accidentally draw focus back to you (if you have a marker that only means “toy out ahead” you can use that otherwise the jump cue and context can predict the availability of the reinforcement. You can just use one jump, say the cue, throw the reward. In that scenario, the reinforcement can be available based on context because you probably have not done any self-control work of throwing a toy on her line when she is working and NOT want her to get it (nor do we want to do that – if I say a forward cue and throw a reward on the line, I want the do to get it in response to the cue. Too much ‘don’t get a toy that I have presented as an obviously available reinforcement’ can be frustrating to the dogs :))
OK back to the wraps 🙂 Now let’s add more of your motion (note how w are adding motion, not handling :))
Using the same setup but now adding the wing before it: start close to the wing, wrap her around it, start moving forward and say you wrap cue (at a walk, but in motion the whole time). Move straight forward, no handling or rotation needed – when she makes a decision to wrap (versus go straight) you can takeoff and turn and reward 🙂
At first your line of motion will be towards the wing you want her to turn on. After a couple of sessions with you adding more and more of your speed you can make it harder by having your line of motion go a bit more towards the bar, so it is less obvious if you want her to wrap towards you or wrap away (for now, they are still wraps towards us).let me know what you think! Great job here!
TracyHi there!
He is a tugging mad man with the flirt pole! I love it!
He is doing really well with his threadles here. Yo can totally add the 2nd wing so it looks like a full jump.
He was really strong on the first side, coming to your left hand (left turn around the entry wing). He had a couple of questions on the other side (right arm, right turn( – I think on the first rep at :35 he was eating and didn’t quite make the threadle line (because, eating haha) and then you helping him a little with your arm moving back – then he as perfect.A couple of things to add now:
To help get the default of going to the jump after the threadle and not waiting for additional help, do two things:
– delay the click of the MM until he has rounded the entry wing and turned his head to the jump bump. Your clicks were perfect for coming to the correct side, and now we can delay ever so slightly so that he starts thinking about taking the bar and not just coming to the correct side. If he has any questions about that – such as looking at you and not at the bar – yo can change the position of the manners minder so it is more center-of-the-bar as he comes to the threadle side, so he is more likely to look over the bar to it.– as you are cuing the threadle and waiting for him to look at the bar to click: keep your shoulders frozen in threadle position so you don’t accidentally build in motion towards the bar as the cue. We want it completely independent of your shoulders/motion. It will feel weird, yes, but it is only for a few reps LOL!
When he is coming to the threadle side and looking for the bar easily… you can move to the next game which adds motion! Yay!!!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I think he has this down. I can be rotating away and he will still go and wrap the wing. One of the reps I forgot to say the verbal immediately, and I could see him eyeing the jump. Good boy when he turned!
I agree!!! Not only will he wrap perfectly when you are rotating away early but when you were late rotating: he still wrapped. YES! Good boy! You can make the bar on the distraction jump lower, so it is more tempting because it is even easier.
>> I added in the toy because I wasn’t getting much momentum.
Yes – it was correct to start with treats but he was so bored LOL!!!! Things got exciting when the toy came out but he didn’t lose his accuracy. It is great to see him maintain and even improve the accuracy when the arousal level got higher. YAY!!!! So… onwards to the jump replacing the wing. That will allow you to also add in the GO rep over 2 jumps. Let me know how he does!
You can also do game 3, where the distraction jump is moved to tempt him on the exit line 🙂
>>Flurry is going to Skylos tomorrow. The Chiropractor thought it was a slip on the ice and she splayed her legs. I haven’t seen any lameness since the night of the incident. Thanks for asking. It was very scary.
It sounded really scary! Hopefully the docs at Skylos will find anything that isn’t quite right, or even better: tell you that she is perfectly fine. Which vets are you seeing? If it is Dr. Peter or Dr. Faith, please tell them that Hot Sauce Sklenar sends her best regards 🙂
Nice work here with Skye and keep me posted about Flurry!
TracyHi!
No worries about the teeter footage, he looked good LOL!>>Started without looking at the homework closely so used the bar.
We do use the bar, but start it really low so he can get the mechanics smoothly and save his body because there are a lot of reps – on the full height bar, he was turning but he was landing ore on his front (not powering from his rear as much). So I think the next several sessions should be 12 inches or lower, so he can sort out how to engage his hind end to make the turns. The 2nd jump (distraction jump) should also be low so it is very easy to go over… which makes it a more tempting distraction LOL! Plus the low bars make the “GO” jumping easier because the distance is so small.
>>He was doing it correctly because of my position and motion. Need to test and practice at all positions!!>>
yes – try to handle less and just move forward more 🙂 You did that at :49, for example – and it really challenged him! He was not as tight as when you were helping with the handling, but that is fine – he was still correct (came back around the wing, didn’t take that distraction jump) so you can totally reward that!
So for the next session, you can add the wing wrap before this setup, so he is going around a wing then heading towards the wing/jump combo – you will be saying the wrap verbal for the wing, but moving forward til he makes a decision. If he wraps, even if it is not perfect: big party! And if he does well, you can add jogging then running 🙂
And if you get a good session or two on the wing, you can add the rest of the jump back with a low bar and start from the wing wrap, moving forward at a walk.
>> I added for tight left. “Check check. ( noted I said check only once on one jump)”. And tight right is “ dig dig .”
Great! 2 different cues will really help clarify things for him.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Lots of good stuff here – he had a lot of success and I can see things that we can add to get more success to transfer to the big running courses too.
On the first game – he is beginning to sort out the turns but he has not sorting out his hind end yet. The video has a great angle of his butt LOL!! Play it in slow motion, like from :28 to :31. Watch his back feet go higher than his shoulders there (he was doing this on a lot of the reps especially to the left).
Basically, it means that he is generally understanding of WHAT you want him to do (turn tightly around the wing) but not HOW he can do it. So he is using his front and gets it done here… but on big distances over full height bars at a trial, he will probably just end up jumping in extension because it is too hard to process the weight shift at speed (he doesn’t really know how). That would also explain why he jumps long and sometimes runs around things instead of digging in to get them. It is not that he is not using his brain, it is more like we need to help him with the mechanics. I can relate – mechanics are hard!He was better turning to his right and GREAT at :58 but your extreme deceleration of falling on your butt is probably too much haha
The GO reps were AWESOME and the jumping was much more balanced.
So I want to help him sort out how to shift his weight into his rear more – for now, make the height easier, no higher than 8 inches til you see him jumping with the proper balance in his rear (no feet going over his shoulders). Start with walking – and when you see him shift his weight back, take off and run to deliver the reward, and run on that hard countermotion angle that you did at :39-:40. That hard angle really helps convince dogs to engage their rear more – but start with a walk because the running is part of the reward. And we don’t want you to run into it until we see the hind end use we want at a walk. Keep the camera at this angle, it was perfect!
And if we don’t see him being able to sort out how to push from the rear, then I have other ideas but I think these will get him started 🙂
Game 3 was put in specifically for Stark and the pups like him LOL! I am glad he found it challenging because it is indeed challenging! He was able to maintain a tight turn after the first rep when you were moving at a walk/slow jog. As you added running, the turns got wider til he went off course at 1:38 and 1:48. He was not wrong on a jump but I don’t think I want to put him on a jump yet with this game. Instead, try this to get him to go really tight on the wing:
Add the wing wrap before it so we are adding his speed, but not yours – you will still be walking forward. And don’t do FCs – just keep walking forward until he makes a decision to either wrap or to go off course. When he makes the wrap decision, mark it and take off on running on that tight countermotion line so he can grab his toy.
Use this setup for a couple of sessions til you see him starting the collection before the wing and you are able to run forward into it – then we start the process with a jump. That also gives us the time to help him sort out his hind end with the other game.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHe knows he has superpowers LOL!!!! He tries to convince us he is just Clark Kent but the truth he is Superman (sometimes Naughty Superman, but generally good Superman haha)
Hi! Very happy to see you here! And Promise at 13 months old is definitely ready to start learning the grown up stuff 🙂
>>I was happy with this exercise of turning on the wings! She showed me she understands her max pup turn and burn very well! I felt like her body placement was good and she didn’t once fall for that sneaky jump! >>
I agree! She was terrific with her turning ability, she never took the distraction jump… and the GO reps were perfect. Happy dance!!!! You can move the distraction jump in little closer 🙂 And you can also delay the FC timing, be late on purpose: see if she can still make the nice wrap even with less help fro the physical cue (you might need to go back to walking at first for that).
>>The issue that I sometimes run into with her on wing wraps is displayed here though. Thankfully most of the time it is with double wing wraps(figure 8s) and her jumping up at my side after the first wrap. >>
I wanted the video with this in mind, to see what might be causing it.
>>Unfortunately for her, the bad trainer showed up today and then had the toy flopping in face😂 on the first rep🤦♀️. >>
Ha! I don’t mind that – it is a great distraction 🙂 And I don’t think it is the source of the jumping up, because she does it even when the toy is not in her face.
And great job with your reward markers, I thought you were quite clear on those,
>>I think this subsequently caused the other jump ups.
I don’t think so –
>>I do also feel like it’s a connection issue with me sometimes too. >>
Yes – more like this is the cause. And it is not that you are badly disconnected, it is just that when you ‘swoosh’ your hand/arm forward to send her past you, it is either too disconnecting or too stimulating (or both) and you get the jumping up every.single.time.
You can see it very clearly with the camera angle at 1:23, watch her reaction (jump up!). Compare that to 2:04 (harder to see because she was on the other side of you): – you didn’t really swoosh your arm forward when she was behind you, the arm moved after she passed you, and she was quite smooth to the wing. Nice!
So for now (maybe for always haha) she is a dog that does not want you pointing to the jumps and will bark/jump/bite to let you know that. Try this game with your elbow locked back the whole time, as if you are holding a drink that you don’t want to spill. Even as you are sending her past you, don’t move your arm ahead of you. Start at a walk and nice and close, and see how she does.
To give you an idea of what I mean, here is an old video of Voodoo when he was not yet 2 years old and I was trying to teach myself to NOT fling my arm forward because he was jumping up, barking, biting (sound familiar LOL!)
Here is a video with explanation:
>>I do believe the wing wraps have a history of frustration tied with them. When she was younger I don’t think she understood when the toy was available as the reward. After the first wrap she was like ”I did my thing why are you withholding my reward?!!!” She would get frustrated and sometimes she would bite me! We are past the biting now lol, but I still think it has a frustration element possibly tied to it. To get past the biting I had to use food on a target and take the focus off of me on these.>>
This is definitely possible! You are clean with your markers now, and you can also throw a reward to the exit of the wrap with the other hand, to help smooth it all out. But I bet the connection change with the arm locked back ends up helping her a lot LOL!
I think my theory will hold true based on the class video!!! (LOVELY stay and wrap, BTW!) Watch your dog-side arm in that video – it was locked back as you released her, and it barely moved. You moved it a little after she was passing you, but just as little. You definitely did not move it forward to point to the jump while she was still behind you! And she was perfect in that little clip!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I think you can go to the wing wrap before the setup, with you walking into it to see how they do.
to clarify, keep the set up the same and walk? Should I run the exit line to get the acceleration?>>
Yes, same setup and walking forward. And you can run the exit line if you think it is a higher value reward, but don’t start running until after the dogs have made a decision 🙂
>>It is entirely possible that I placed myself incorrectly. I think that my line was likely on the backside line instead of the centered wing, so I should set the line closer to the centered wing?
Yes – you can be a bit more centered so he can see the wing you want him to wrap. Eventually you can proof being in the wrong position to see if he can learn front versus back cues but at this stage, he is probably not going to shove you out of the way to get the front side LOL
I>> apparently haven’t had enough caffeine yet because I’m feeling extra concrete in needing clarification this AM.
Ha! Caffeine is LIFE!!!!
>>Ha yes, I realized this too and put him up when I changed out the wing. I really struggle with him not wanting to come to me if he thinks he’s going to get put up while his sister works so it’s something I need to continue to work on. If I had a perfectly trained place behavior, that would be ideal.
He can hang out off to the side, as long as he is not using his Border Collie Superpowers to shape her line 🙂
>>His recall since your seminar and his small escape has been SO GOOD- like seriously comes skidding into the house now so I don’t want to do anything to damage that.. hahaha
Totally understandable. Also, the death threats that many of us gave him might have contributed? Maybe not but still, I have a few new grey hairs named after him 🙂 Glad he is being a very good boy 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>>Extension on a line: “Go on “- jump in extension, jump middle of the bar, look for obstacle directly ahead, take off in extension looking straight ahead and land in extension moving straight away.>>
Sounds good!
>>Get out: “Out, out, ” – jump in extension, jump near middle of the bar, look for obstacle laterally farther from me, moving diagonally/laterally away from me in extension.>>
Yes, this sounds good too 🙂 One thing to add to this from the dog’s perspective is the lead change – so if she is on her left lead, for example, she would move to her right lead. This is an easily seen behavior that you can mark/reward to help her understand the out cue.
>>Wrap verbals: “Left, left, left ” or “Right, right, right” – collect, shorten stride, add extra stride, head turn in direction of turn, jump bar near wing, stay close to wing on a line back toward me.>>
Also a good clear definition and I like that you have 2 separate verbals.
>>Soft turn: “Shhhh, shhh” collect, shorten stride softly, head turn, jump bar nearer to wing closest to me and/or in the direction I’m moving, look for next obstacle laterally (180, 270 or serp line). I use this to indicate a turn towards me either right or left. “Turn, turn” indicates a soft turn away from me, collect, head turn away from me to jump bar near far wing either right or left.>>
Makes sense – so shhhhh is the soft turn towards and turn is the soft turn away, but they are similar lines with ‘towards’ and ‘away’ being the difference, right?
>>Backside slice: “Back, back” collect, shorten stride, weight back, start head turn, pass close to far wing on the way to backside of jump, take jump near first 3rd to middle of the bar on a diagonal line (slice), landing close to wing nearest me, continues head turn, look for new line in direction I’m going.>>>
Nice! This is super specific! Exactly where she is over the bar will depend on the sequence itself but you covered that in your definition nicely.
>>Backside wrap: ” Zip, zip ” collect, shorten stride, weight back, start head turn, pass close to near wing on the way to backside of jump, take jump bar close to wing, head continues to turn, landing is near the wing, moving on a line in the direction I’m going.>>
Since zip zip means an entire circle wrap, theoretically she should keep finishing the circle even if it is not the direction you are going 🙂 When you are close to her in the handling, your running line will likely support it – but if this is distance work, your handling might not support it and she should finish the full wrap 🙂
>>Threadle slice: ” Heeere” collection to pass by wing to non obvious side of jump, head turn away from me toward bar, weight shift, take jump first 3rd to middle of the bar on a diagonal line (slice), landing near far wing head turn for new line in my direction.
Threadle wrap : “Digga, digga” extra collection, head turn away from me toward wing, weight shift back as dog goes around wing to non obvious side of jump, jumps bar near wing, continues head turn, landing near wing, looking for new line in my direction.>>Terrific! 2 cues for 2 entirely different behaviors, and you have really defined them nicely. You can clarify if you mean entry or exit wing (come around entry wing for the wrap, slice to exit wing for the slice) but that is also pretty much implied in the name of the move 🙂
Great job here!!! I love how extensively you have defined these!
TracyUnfortunately this software only allows for tiny things to be added – you can post a google doc link, or send it as an attachment to agilityuniversity@gmail.com. Sorry that it is a pain!!
Tracy
