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Good morning!
I think your NADAC plan sounds good! And remember to take as much time as you need to get to the line especially with the 10 foot rule, and also don’t feel pressured to get in there too early 🙂
He is running well in class!
>>He’s usually a bit more distracted in class after Sun trial.>>
He is probably mentally depleted, that is normal. I get mentally depleted on Mondays after trials too 🙂
I also like how he is sticking with things when you stop & discuss with the instructor! And offering engagement when after he eats from his clam, and moving with you at the end to the leash. All of these might look like small details but they are such HUGE great things in the ring 🙂 plus your connection looks good and that helps too.
>>. You can also see he had a little trouble with circle trick which is similar to the trial when he couldn’t do that one until more pattern. His tire sniffing might have been real smell distraction as the well-trained border collie sniffed same area and trainer said female dogs in heat attended class.
Yes, that would be a big distraction – add in mental depletion and you got a little sniffing. I like it when dogs in heat attend class, because it gives my boy dogs the chance to work through a tremendous distraction 🙂
>> The first run he kept tripping me up and trainer insisted my clam in my hand was distracting him and I should keep in my pocket.
I haven’t really seen him get too locked onto the clam that he was tripping you – usually it is a connection thing. If he doesn’t see connection, then he struggles to see the line and comes into you (but not to the clam, it happens with or without it hahaha) Now that he is such an engaged hard-working dude in class, the next area of focus you can do in the classes will be to sort out what he needs from you in terms of connection, and also building up more commitment for when you are not perfect in your connection (SO HARD to be perfect!) You can ask your classmates or instructor to throw the reward out on the line, so he looks for lines more (and especially for tunnels and tires!)
On the first run, looks like he was having a little trouble with driving forward off contacts (like off the a-frame at 4:09), so being a bit further ahead and pointing ahead of him less (more connection to him) will help that.
The tire at class is hard for him especially on the start line, so you can totally help him by isolating the tire hole: have the tire resting on the ground (so he can’t go under) and jump wings blocking the gap between the frame and the tire (so he can’t go through it)
The offered engagement when you took the leash off was fabulous 🙂 And a good place to keep rewarding for sure!!! He seemed very strong about staying engaged even with the ’empty hands’ on the way to the line.
He got the tire nicely here especially the first time and you were brilliant to reward it. The pumping arms running style works well and pointing ahead doesn’t work as well for him – at 2:07, for example, when you pointed ahead he totally thought it was the pink jump (set at 20″ LOL!) so as strong as it sounds… looking at him more directly as you run forward will keep him on the line (seems so counterintuitive but works so well :))
He looked really good on the 3rd run too!
>>He followed me as I placed his leash off course but I was able to reset and lead out.
He is probably not used to you moving away to put the leash off course, no worries 🙂
>>He had a little trouble with few jumps
One of those spots might have been at :50 – teeter to jump – it looked like a blind cross as you pointed ahead, he could only see your back and your shoulders were turning, so he guessed a bit. He stayed engaged, though! Good boy!
>> but he took the tire first time after jump sequences but not for the end.
It is good to see him taking the tire in sequence when he has momentum! Helping him locate the tire hole more consistently will help make that more of a 100% thing so you can trust him and run through it 🙂
Great job! Keep me posted about the NADAC trial!
TracyHi!
>>We can use food in the Fun Run but since I really don’t train with food at home, I’m not sure I should use it in the ring.
If she likes food in the training context, it might be a worthwhile reinforcement because it will be particularly amazing for her 🙂 if food is not going to be reinforcing in that context, stick with the toy. I am not sure the home routine will make a difference for the fun run, because the home routine is as much about context as anything else: see breakfast, train for breakfast LOL!
>> Maybe I should change my routine in the am at home and try feeding her breakfast first thing and then going out to practice and see if she is more into tugging/running?
because the train-for-breakfast scenario is really embedded, I think she might get confused or frustrated, so it doesn’t seem worth it. We don’t want to add any questions to a context where there are already a set of ‘rules’ 🙂
>>Also, do you think I should try just doing a push back and run at the start-line? I know that stationary starts are demotivating for her.>>
I think it can be a tool in the toolbox, but not the only tool because it only works in specific situations (like super easy starts, tunnel starts, etc). If it is a longer line on a start or a more complicated start, a push back and run puts you behind immediately which can be confusing to her and set up errors. So yes, use it here and there where it will totally work in that situation so she can chase your motion on the opening line. I also recommend the cartoon lead out (she really liked it in practice!) or even running to your lead out then releasing while you run, as this can get you to a better position – it is very motivating for the opening line to be clear and fast where she can chase your line of motion 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi –
>>Well fuck, I wasn’t getting the vibe that he wasn’t into the toy… Is this for all sessions or just the first one where he was extra shut down?
Definitely the first one, and here & there when you did not run Callie first.
>>He gets really excited when I run without a dog. I noticed that in your seminar when you had me run without him and you held him.
yes – so you can narrow that do little things like dance moves or crouchy cartoon lead outs or jumping jacks, stuff you can do in small spaces outside the ring when you can’t run a lot and Callie is not around 🙂
>>I think this is partially my doing. I always assume it’s my fault and reward anyway because I don’t want him to melt so we are in a vicious cycle. We do a good bit of drive lines and those go well, it’s mostly turns that I lose him.>>
Which is why going back to low bars (so it is easy to commit and organize the jumping), and ramping up reinforcement for commitment will help. And also, I don’t think you tossed a reward on any of these – all reinforcement came from your hands. Getting reinforcement thrown on the landing side of the jump and not coming from your hands will make a massive difference. A toy would be great but if that is not going to work as a reinforcement, you can also do a lotus ball because he does like treats!
T
Hi! Definite improvement, she did really well!!! And she held her stays even with you walking out (she is at her best when you run away, but running away on ALL leads outs for a camp? Yeah, that is a LOT haha).
What I noticed on the video was that she was pretty good lining up with a toy visible, SUPER good lining up with treats in your hand… and a barky back-talker when your hands were empty (like on rep 4). This empty hand thing is just like trials – so this line up behavior can be worked through the 4 training in the ring steps too: visible toy, empty hands (toy/treats in pocket but rewards still delivered), remote reinforcement of in-and-out (quick rewards) then full remote reinforcement – that should help her be quicker to get into position!!
Sounds like the camp was fun!!!! Loved the photos of her in the video too 🙂
TracyHi!
I loved her standard run! The refusal on the tunnel and missing the jump on the way to the a-frame were little handling errors – she was fast, focused and engaged!
>> She was not interested in tugging before the JWW run so I kind of knew she was going to be slow.>>
JWW went pretty well, part of the problem was that it was a tight, slamm spaced course with a lot o fturns so there was no place for her to open up and no fun contacts to lock onto.If she won’t tug beore a run, you can whip out the fast moving tricks, barking outside the ring (more on that below), better treats, Cartoon lead outs, etc.
>>I just can’t figure her out. She needs so much amping up and some days it can be really difficult to do
I think it is a matter of being ready to change “tools” in the toolbox in the moment: no tugging outside the ring? Ok, how about barking for meatballs? It will have a similar effect 🙂 And if she is not tugging outside and youthink she might be slow, try a short, cartoon lead out!
I see a MASSIVE improvement in her runs, though – yes, the JWW was not quiet as fast as the standard but it was still really strong, and she will continue to pick up speed!
>>She did not want to speak on the line this morning.>>
I don’t recommend the speak while she is already in the stay and you have done the lead out, most dogs (Char included) think that is weird and don’t do it – in that moment, the release should be next. In the order of events, the speak belongs outside the ring or right before you set her up in the stay, but not while she is in the stay.
>>. I also really can’t use it as we enter the ring because I think it will distract the dog running. >>
That really should not be a problem at the excellent/masters level, but you can go to the line, wait for the other dog to be leashed, then get her to speak or do a trick, then line up.
At home, you were asking her if she was ready, and she was totally ready, then she got stressed when almost a minute went by and you were asking for the speak. So if you ask for a behavior twice, and she can’t do it for whatever reason – don’t ask again, move on to the next thing and figure out what happened later on 🙂 In this case, the speak trick was jus in the wrong spot in the order of events.
>.So the second run i just did the Pink Panther lead out.
You said at the end of the video that you were not sure which one felt better – the pink panther lead out made the sequence faster, I timed it 🙂
>.This Friday I’m doing a Fun Run and then sat. and sunday I entered a CPE trial where we can train in the ring. Thoughts???
Will the fun run allow you to use food in the ring? Either way – do the fun run with all sorts of reinforcement in the ring, to make a lot of deposits into the reinforcement bank account, just make it really fun and super reinforcing.
For the CPE trial, for courses with contacts – try doing some ‘for real’ runs mixed in with some empty hands/hidden toys runs. For runs that are jumps & tunnels only, build up her love for jumping courses with ‘just like home’ runs with visible toys.
Let me know how it goes!!
TracyHi!
Hi!>.Areas of disconnect happened with a mistake
Those mistake moments are great for either rewarding immediately, as if it was correct, or a Find My Face moment then reward
>> I really tried to keep him tugging but man I pull it out of his mouth a lot my accident. He also doesn’t grab it as well as I’m expecting when I run with it.>>
You can let him grab it on the fly, trade for a cookie, then when discussing with the instructor – do engaged chill or hold his collar or have him lie down. At 7:33 of the first video you were trying to tug and listen to feedback and you pulled it out of his mouth then he went to look at the fence. Or in the 2nd video at about 1:00 you were listening to Annette but feeding him the whole time – that can diminish the food value, so the engaged chill or just a down or collar hold is something to definitely add in.
I skimmed the videos without sound, to look for any details to pull out – I think the first choice of reinforcement was not actually reinforcement, so he was kinda meh. You can have 2 or 3 types of rewards with you and if he is meh about one… switch! John worked him for treats and he was great! You worked him for the toy dangling and he was not as into it. There is nothing wrong with using high value, stinky gross food rewards instead of a tug toy 🙂
And you running Callie first DEFINITELY helps him – it is something to play with and then try to get him stimulated like that when she is not present so you don’t rely on her being there.
>> He nahh get him he’s been fine>>
Ha! I am glad he did that LOL!
A good summer project is going to be commitment, commitment, commitment! He runs past things a lot, for no particular reason 🙂 So I recommend working on 12″ bars and doing a lot of simple lines with thrown rewards for taking the simple lines, to help bring his commitment to the next level. His commitment is better when is was super aroused after watching Callie run – which is why we can’t rely on it, we need to train it independently. Also, be careful when running with a dangling toy past jumps that you make it really clear that he should ignore the jump and take the toy – I think there is not a lot of clarity there (verbal is late, or not always there) so he chooses to watch your hand over taking the jump. Food for thought!
Overall, it looks like it was a really great experience!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
OMG! I can see your foot action to cover thecheese LOL!>>I sent her off course before the first jump
Yes, you were like ‘let’s get outta here’ but didn’t quite set the line to the 1st jump – she was a good girl
>> instead sent her to visit the ring crew>>
I think that was more of an indication that she needs more ring crew randos in class, where you are running towards/past them, and you have food in your hands/pockets so you can reward her very specifically and in-the-moment for ignoring them. She struggles with people aroind and the judge, so that is definitely something to tackle in group settings with reinforcement right there (not remote reinforcement until she is great with reinforcement right there).
>>She is learning to be resilient to my screw ups.>>
yes! One recovery pattern tha works well with her is if you go towards her to kind of re-connect, then run away again. That seems to help!
>>they are not designed for fast dogs.
Correct! They are designed for medium speed 20″ dogs – literally! I beliee their guidelines discuss this specifically. For most AKC courses, dogs will work in moderate collection, which is why it is such a problem for 24″ jumping fast dogs, for example.
>>I was very proud of her dogwalk to the table.
Yes -you did a great job making sure she knew about the turn and she had a great DW!! And she ignored the judge! Happy dance!
Tracy
Hi!
>>vI also found the off course interesting as she was so convinced she was right
Yes! And that is not something she usually does.
Hendersonville is SO NICE!!! Enjoy 🙂 I am jealous LOL!!!!
Hi! Just thought of this for NADAC -they allow a zip lock bag of treats in your pocket, I think. So it would be like combining step 2 (e.pty hands, which he has seen in training) and step 3 (in and out) – you can show it to him, stuff it in your pocket right before you go in (tap it to remind him in the 10 foot No Cookie Zone lol) and then run with it, delivering the treats afterwards when you arrive 10 feet away from the ring. Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyThanks for reminding me – I thought I sent an invoice but maybe it went to the wrong email address? I just resent one to your gmail 🙂 Thanks!
TracyGreat job with your standard run!
For JWW – I think working through the FEO/training in the ring levels will really help – in FAST & T2B you can make up your own JWW courses so you don’t put him on contacts (an CPE/USDAA/UKI if is is local). So yes, running with a toy but also then fading it with steps 2 and 3.The other thing to work on is the different levels of Find My Face – the opening was great here and he lost focus and couldn’t recover when you had a slight handling bobble and had to call him back. The Find My Face games applied to course work in training will really help keep him engaged even if there is a bobble. And JWW is a place where there might be bobbles, because there are no contacts to stop or catch up 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I can’t get my previous thread to load anymore. Clearly agility U thinks it is too long :). I have been struggling for about a week, so I am starting a new thread.Are you using an iPad or iPhone? When the iOs products update, it takes a while for iOs (Apple) and YouTube (Google) to talk nicely to each other especially on higher volume threads. We have talked to WordPress about it and there is nothing we can figure out because Apple and Google do what they want, when they want. Very terrier-like LOL! So a new thread works best.
Looks like the trial went really well!!! You did a lot “for real” and she seemed to do really well – her runs here looked lovely like her runs in the turf facility or at seminars, and better than the runs in the barn with the distractions! YAY!
>>A cattle dog ran up to Lanna on Sunday the first run. She growled so was clearly uncomfortable with the encounter. That’s not her usual when approached by a new dog so I don’t know if there was something about the approach/dog or if it was a leave me alone I am doing the stuff.>>
In that heightened state of arousal right before a run, my guess is she was both uncomfortable being charged (the cattle dog came in fast & hard) and also, a bit of ‘leave me alone I am doing the thing’. She was very resilient though!
On the first video – Leash runner perfectly placed to obscure most of the run but what I did see looked GREAT – focused, connected, FAST!
2nd run – also lovely! Note how she is quiet and looking at line when you are connected with low arms. When you point ahead and try to use an arm to connect? Bark bark bark, look at you. She eventually does find the line but I think she is telling you that with the low arms, she can see awesome connection and it is better handling. High arms obscure her view so it frustrates her a bit.
3rd run – the real view! Yay! Also a good run, really connected!!!
>>She was still very looky at the start but ran well. >>
it is possible that it is too much to look at you during the start line moments – I have seen that in a LOT of dogs especially BCs and BC mixes. She might not be looking at stuff, more like she can’t look at you in that moment. My BorderJack and BorderStaffy could never look at me at the start line, and it was fine.
That off course WAS interesting! I wonder if she read your shoulder turn as a ‘pull and send’ to the tunnel? She seemed very convinced before, during and after LOL!! At least it was a good opportunity to practice a bit of “find my face’ and happy fixing, she was fine with it other than feedback in barking form haha!!
And ending day with the NFC run was smart.
I think you will have fun with Kerry!! I wish it was closer, there are still spots! And time off after that is good. Where will you be in NC?
Tracy
>>Last day! We survived!
Huzzah! I knew you would have a great weekend!
>>Interestingly, he wasn’t as high as he is in trials but I could really get him into the proper state by running Callie for just a second.>>
And it also is a goo demonstration about how enagement and focus can often come from *increased* arousal! “Conventional wisdom” thinks we should calm the dogs but science tells us to embrace increased arousal.
>>He did get some distraction with the ring barrier- chasing the movement of the other dogs but called off when called.
Which is why every agility dog should actually start with flyball foundation classes, because that way they will enter agility with zero distracton issues. But again, the agility community thinks I am insane to even suggest that LOL!
>> The last run, we kind of went a bit overboard on it because another dog had just gotten chased.
Probably a good example of depletion, especially at the end o fa long hot weekend.
>>Our areas of disconnect were in the spaces in between.>>
Like when you were talking to the instructor? or stopping to reinforce? Or literally between obstacles while running?
>>I’m really glad I got John because I tried to chicken out of running in the afternoon and he encouraged me to keep going.
I got to co-teach at a camp with John a few years back and really enjoyed him!
>>I was feeling super emotional all weekend because I really don’t give either of us enough credit for the work we’ve put in and can mostly only see the things that don’t go perfect.
Now I need work with both you and Annette to work on controlling all the feelings >>There are a lot of emotions and resilience that go into this thing we call dog sportsing! It is heavy on the mental game – I highly recommend that everyone does a sport-specific mental prep program and a life-specific therapy program LOL!! turns out they were very much the same 🙂
T
Good morning! Lots of great work here!
<>>I did a good bit more of pattern games upon arrival and for his first set of tricks as he was having a hard time doing some initially. He settled in after a chance to take in the environment and later was offering some.Oerfect! And good for you for noticing that and helping him get settled in.
Really lovely run! He toally did smoke you on the opening line 🙂 I am not sure if he was running off when he ran past the a-frame, or was just driving a line… but there was no actual line LOL!! He came right back when you called him and then he was perfect!!!
>He had good engagement when I took off the leash >>
YES!!!
>> This run felt really good and he was charging ahead taking obstacles so seemed a little better than class as I can’t usually get that much distance.>>
I agree with your choice to help him at the tire start by not leading out and the DW as teh 2nd obstacle was great in a way but hard because he smoked you LOL!!! Hopefully future runs will have no tire at the start and you can lead out a bit 🙂
He seemed like a really happy little dude, very fast, very engaged and relaxed too!
On the gamblers run:
>> We had to wait for the course change while in the ring so I bent down and he snuggled into my legs for a chill out session and he did a few tricks.>>
Great!!! You can also hang out outside the ring with cookies while they change the course – I like to go in only after everything is done so I don’t get hung up waiting there for hours LOL!
>> He stayed when I took off the harness but then he headed off to some distractions on the side of the ring with some dogs. So to get him back I took out the clam and just started the run. He ran well but did run off to the side again as a little dog was right by the ring near the extra obstacles.>>
If you turn up the sound, there was some seriously loud alarm barking outside the ring while that was going on – my guess is he was distracted by that! Good job getting him going! The rest was great 🙂
>>One of my trainers was the gate steward so she warned the scribe he might try to run out or over but he’s a totally different dog after this class>>
Teehee 🙂 He didn’t seem to even look at the ring crew! You have done your homework and he is definitely looking fabulous!
>> It was interesting to see how well the dogs doing FEO ran compared to the others, and how happy the handler and dog walked away afterwards.
Excellent observation! I agree – FEO helps teach dog AND handler how to be happy in the ring 🙂 Everyone has goals that are NOT Q goals, and is more relaxed and that transfers nicely even to ‘real’ runs.
>> I heard him debating whether to reward her afterwards and I’m thinking don’t punish further.
I agree with you 1000% . Plus, withholding reward afterwards won’t have any impact on teeter performance, which it will affect how the dog feels about the entire environment!
>> No, it’s gamblers and he might get a Q so why waste the money.
Very interesting observation about the money! I think it is a great use of money (especially with the relatively inexpensive USDAA and UKI) because when I spend the big bucks (AKC, or big events) I will know that my dog is happy and ready 🙂
>Not sure how his class will be since it’s likely to storm during the day and rain for class but he will like the 69 temp. We might be inside so he’s way better and I can run weaves.
These cooler temps are SO nice!!!
>>Next, I will be able to assess with NADAC on Saturday 5-28 at a place he runs frequently. This will be more challenging so we’ll hangout in the 10 foot legal area. I signed him up for 4 runs as it’s double runs in Standard and Touch and Go. I’ve never done Touch and Go but it seemed to have his favorite obstacles and I don’t have to worry about the discriminations. At least right now the forecast is showing even cooler temps.
This all sounds great – Touch and Go is a-frame, dog walk & tunnels, from what I remember. No Tunneler runs? Tunnelers is the greatest class ever invented, according to my dogs hahaha!
For the 10 foot rule: I believe you can hang out past that with your cookies until the very last minute before heading in – you don’t want to get caught in the Cookie-Free Zone too early 🙂 And keep me posted!
Tracy
