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Hi! She looks great here, she is really getting the idea of the rear crosses!!!
The go lines looked really good too – you can say go sooner so she doesn’t look at you when she is exiting the tunnel – you can say it just before she enters the tunnel so she hears it nice and early, then say it a few more times so she comes blasting out looking totally straight.
The rear crosses are looking really strong. Youc an put a little more pressure on the RC line by getting closer to her line and moving across behind her as soon as she is passing you. It will be fun to see how early you can show the pressure and change side: she has gotten even faster recently so you can get right on her tail to get her to look away in the new diection before she takes off for the jump.
>> A little miscommunication when turning left on the first try, got better as we went along.
Yes, that was at 1:07 – you got too far up the line and had to stop to let her get past you, which made the RC info late. You had much better position and timing at 1:14 and got it there and on all the others. YAY!
Great job here! And she was also brilliant about ignoring the disractions. Super!!
TracyHi!
Got it, I think:
>> Entering from same side of the jump, say the right side, but in one instance dog is on your right side (so a regular backside push), in the other instance dog is on you left (between you and the jump) and you still want the backside from the right (so a threadle).>>
Yes, those are my 4 verbals:
2 for pushing to the backside (dog on my right in your example) – ‘back’ for slice and “dig’ wrap.
2 for the threadle side (when I am on the takeoff side, dog on my left in your example) – ‘close’ for slice and ‘in’ for wrap>>Would this be the same verbal for both options?
Nope – 4 different behaviors, 4 different verbals.
>>What if on the dog landing from the jump they need to turn to their right and go back across the plane of the jump? Is that a different verbal or maybe an additional one added to the first?>>
Coming back across the plane of the jump on the entry wing, or on the exit wing?
If it is the exit wing (opposite of the entry wing) then I use my slice cues: back for push slices, close for threadle slices.
If the do enters and exits on the same wing, I use my wrap cues: dig for push wraps and in for threadle wraps.
>>Wondering same if instead of exit to left wanted the 360deg wrap exit or exit back to the direction you came from, cause sometimes I am just not able to get on the ideal side with my crazy fast dogs (crazy fast compared to me at least).>>
That is why I use verbals that are relative to the wings – the 360s are enter and exit on the same wing, so those turns (and the super tight turns that are similar to them) get the wrap verbals.
>>Trying to figure out if I have the right verbals for all the options on one jump and don’t make up too many. I think I might have more than I need for some of this but oddly also might be missing some that I maybe should have.>>
Make your complete list! Then we will see what you need or don’t need, and we can add or delete some.
T
Hi!
>revisited our wind beneath your hair or whatever you call it
Wind in your hair, as in hair blowing back because you are running so fast 🙂 Although Wind Beneath Your Wings works too LOL!
On the video:
She is doing really well! You can have your start wing more centered or moved over more, so you can basically run straight past the jump and not have to peel away and show lateral motion or to avoid colliding with the wing. That made your connection a little harder after the start wing.As soon as she recognized that this was a drive ahead to the toy game, she was great! And she was still great in terms of driving ahead and looking ahead, even when the toy was not already placed out there. YAY!
One little detail – after a cookie reward, and before the wrap, make a cleaner transition into the start. Let her finish eating an look up at you – then you can gently take her collar, start the verbal… and then let go and step to the wing. That will set her up for success on all of them, and limit errors like at 2:05 where she was not quite ready, you sent and tried to leave and she was like “WAIT WHAT?” 🙂
When you turned the camera angle to the other direction on the video – this is a little better wing lineup, you could run straighter so it was easier for you to connect and set the line 🙂
Look at her bring the toy back!!! HAPPY DANCE!
Zig zags – the good news is that you can she can be on either side of the wing, all the variations are good 🙂 And the handling is not all that important – we are pretty much in get it done mode LOL!
Only one suggestion: Start her a little closer to the first wing, almost touching her shoulder to it, That will add some more challenge to that very first step.
Since she did so well, you can shorten the distance between wings – this looked to be 6 – 8 feet, approximately? You can try them at 5 feet apart to see if she can organize herself faster (and to see if you can do the handling faster :))
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Definitely not a train wreck at all! Easy fix for you:
Rather than face her to get her to come in, turn your feet to face the tunnel and move towards it (keep doing the strong upper body handling, that looked great).
What was happening was you were facing her and not moving, plus pretty far from the tunnel… so she came in and then thought it was toy time. In the moments when you face her, you will need to flip her back out to the tunnel with motion. But ideally you don’t face her, but rather you will be facing the tunnel entry you want – Try to have your feet turned to the tunnel (not facing her like a lap turn) so you can move towards the tunnel and she will find the entry on her own with your motion.
The foot position I am talking about is what you did at 2:19 when you were doing it without her – upper body cuing the ‘come in’ and feet facing/moving towards the tunnel.
The toy was indeed a little too exciting at first, so putting it on your pocket was smart! You can do the next session with food only so she has less excitement to look at, which givesy ou time to sort out your feet and motion.
She is very smart got it at 1:24 when you moved to the tunnel and leaned towards it a little. YAY! So you can see how effective the motion towards the correct tunnel entry will be.
Compare that to 1:58 and 2:15, for example when you were facing her and not moving towards the tunnel (and a couple of feet away) – she just came to you.
Start off nice and slowly, then I think as you both get the hang of the motion, you can add more and more speed 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
This is going well!
>> I think I need to be doing something different with my arms. I mean, he figured out what I was showing him, but it’s probably not ideal. “”
It is fine for now, my only suggestion is to do the arm motions faster 🙂 In future versions of this game, you will be serping along and moving the whole time, so the arm stuff here is not that important in the long run. What is important is his understanding of that kinda sideways, lead changing, slice jump – and he was great!
If you want to increase the challenge for him, you can shorten the distance between them by having the 2nd and 3rd wing touching the bar before it or even overlapping a little. That will require him to do the jumping coordination more quickly – which also means you should do your arms more quickly LOL!!
Great job here! And also it was smart training to reward the stays 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
I agree, he was a bit rusty at the beginning and was locked onto the tunnel entry like the original smiley face game 🙂
But then you got clearer with the wrap verbal on the wing, and he remembered that it is possible to take the other end of the tunnel – then he was really strong 🙂One thing to add to it is giving the wrap verbal and letting him finish the wrap almost entirely while you move away to the tunnel entry you want – then give your kiss kiss cue. The quality of the wrap on the wing will really help the tunnel discrimination. And remember to add in some GO TUNNEL lines too, to be sure he is processing and not just assuming that it is now all about the other side of the tunnel 🙂
>> The biggest was not walking towards the tunnel opening I wanted him to go into.>>>
Yes, good catch! He did really well when you did keep your feet moving towards the tunnel entry you wanted – at :51, for example, when you stopped, he was confused.
One other thing to consider: after the kiss kiss cue, you don’t need to also say ‘tunnel’ because the kiss kiss cue is also the cue to get into the tunnel 🙂 tunnel means ‘take the entry on your line; and kiss kiss means ‘go in the other side’ 🙂
Great job here! After one more successful session like this, you can add more motion 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>>Would be great if it is late May, then I should be able to work on a number of the things that I can’t in the basementLast day for videos is May 20th.
>>
So no differentiation based on the side of you the dog is on?>>
Do you mean a verbal for a backside push where the dog is on my left and slices to her right, and a separate backside push where the dog is on my right and slices to her left? Heck no – that would mean 8 separate verbals on just the backside. I just don’t think we need that right now, hopefully never! If my cues are good enough to get to the backside of the correct jump, I don’t need the additional layer of reminding her to slice to her right, for example – I have already told her if it is a slice or wrap so the bar will dictate which direction the turn is. There are some people out there doing it that way with the extra verbals but the dogs are reading it from handling and from the position of the bar. I remain unconvinced that the dog is actually trained to know the difference (and it makes no sense to the dog to slice the other way on a backside jump because the bar indicates the direction, so the extra verbals are redundant).
She is doing well on the wrap versus tunnel game!!!
She had a little trouble with the tunnel at the beginning, so you warm her up with the tunnel without the wing wrap – just send her into the tunnel to kind of ‘wake up’ the value of it in this context.
The main thing I think will help as the wing gets closer (and as you either add more movement or fade it out – do both on this game :)) is to start the verbal before you let go of her, saying it 3 or 4 or 5 times and THEN let go of her collar. That adds an extra layer of processing for her -when all the info comes at once (verbal, motion, letting go of her collar in the same instant), she is processing motion and verbal in the same moment and that can lead to the errors. That way, while still holding her, she can hear the difference between the verbals before processing the motion.
But overall, she is looking great! You can add in the double whammy element of sending her to the tunnel then moving into the wrap too!
Great job 🙂
TracyWhoa! Look at Zippie doing her pops! Love it! It was really good to be able to then reward off leash offered engagement with a treat after that (and the sequences, of course) – it is a good way to add these in without going cold turkey on reinforcement. And then on the 2nd rep, where there was a dog in a down right nearby – VERY nice!
Remember to not keep cuing it – let her look away if she needs to, and wait for her to offer re-engaging before the next pop cue.
So far, I am LOVING this!
>>I did remember to play higher energy Volume Dial (does anyone ever call them VD games?)
Great job remembering to play them! She looks really good here, very engaged! And no one calls them VD because it makes me think of either Valentines Day or venereal disease LOL!
>>I also had time to set down our cookies container (lid on) and do some VD and feed from hand, but that’s not really “kryptonite” if she sees me put it there…she did great, more value for working and food from hands.>
It might not be pure kryptonite but it is NOT easy 🙂 And it is part of what she will see at trials, so it is useful to do that.
>>We have a CPE trial Friday afternoon, we should talk FEO. I can run with a toy, and she will chase it a bit but it’s not a big “reward.” Do you want me to break it out and run to the exit right after the line up or after a few obstacles? Or after a difficult section? (I don’t plan to have any difficult handling but sometimes things don’t go per plan). >>
If she will be interested in it and will chase you and then you run out to the cookies – then the toy can serve as a bridge/secondary reinforcement as you then run out to the primary reinforcement.
And I think running out after a short, fast burst of obstacles will be ideal – toy in hand, get a fast speed line, be done. Wheeee! Don’t ask for anything difficult, don’t even go near anything difficult 🙂
>Our first event is akin to Beg Speedstakes, nice and flowy I expect.
Perfect! Pick a fast & fun section for FEO. And resist any little voices in your head that might try for a Q 🙂
>>Wildcard is a 9-10 obstacle course with modest discriminations,
Make the discrims easy and if she ends up on the wrong one? Pretend it was right and keep running 🙂
>>Snooker is last. As I’m FEO-ing, I don’t think I have to follow snooker rules and will avoid funky handling.>>
Great! Make a very flowy course out of it.
>>My gut says I don’t want to restart after a reward break, since the toy isn’t really much of a reward, but I could give it a try on the last run of the day?
I agree, I think your gut it correct – the toy is more of a bridge than a primary reinforcement. You can extend the number of obstacles before the reinforcement, potentially, but I don’t see a reason to present it and NOT have it be the bridge to the primary.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>.(and even greeting an invisible leash runner which Ripley didn’t care about (but Mighty Mouse thought I was crazy).>>
I must admit that I am glad to know that I am not the only one who greets the invisible leash runner when practicing. I mean, MM is not wrong to think you are nuts, but we are all nuts in that way hahahaha!!! I swear that MM was looking for the leash runner. SO FUNNY!
Ripley was amazing here – you were splitting the behaviors brilliantly and he was highly successful.
He cracked me up at 1:06 when he offered a very relaxed down – I was just thinking that maybe it was too easy for him at that point, and that was when he went into the hip roll down LOL!
The initial c/t for engagement when you were moving your hand to the leash/collar area in that first minute was really great! I already knew he would be a great agility dog, but now I have added obedience to that – he would be amazing in obedience with that prolonged attention like that. You can move into the higher levels more quickly, I think he only needed 4 or 5 reps and then you can add a little spice – the other dogs, moving the leash more, etc.
And in the other environments (like weekend trials), you can ask folks to move around while you play these early c/t stages. And if he is fine with that, you can do it near enough to the ring that he will get ocmfy ignoring other dogs (and also far enough from the ring that he will be comfy ignoring dogs :))
He continued to be brilliant when the other dogs got involved – MM sitting in front and the Swissy providing the musical accompaniment in the background. It made the game a little harder because Ripley really wanted to look at MM – it was really hard to NOT look at Mighty Mouse!! That is good for future planning, such as MM on a mat or platform, then MM chewing a bone or running around with a toy, and so on – practicing trial envionment things at home!
The leash off and on, and leash tossing was all good – Ripley took a heartbeat to look at the leash toss but immediately returned to engagement. Perfect!!
If you want to add tugging on his leash as part of this game, feel free to put it in so you can get it on stimulus control and use it for remote reinforcement as well. And, you can use a toy as th reward instead of cookies, which will change the state of arousal for sure!
It looks like he will be 15 months on May 18th? Is there UKI in your area? You can do NFC in UKI at 15 months at a lower jump height (like he can do 12″ NFC, you just need the trial secretary to adjust it in the computer). I mention it not because I really think any 15 month old dog should be running for real, but because he is mature enough and strong enough with the games that you can enter a class at a super low height for NFC, and do some leash on, leash off, tricks/toys games with the added element of moving into the ring. UKI is super baby-dog, user-friendly like this.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> So this whole breathing thing. I am pretty convinced you made it up. I won’t be taking further questions at this time. Thanks
Ha! I swear, it is the real deal. Dr. Karen Overall is the person to google search:
https://www.dacvb.org/members/?id=57319655
And Leslie McDevitt brought it into the dog training world in a more accessible way.
And he was TOTALLY doing it in the video! You can see it after the first Chex huff moment: note how he closed his mouth and TOOK A BREATH. Score! It is good for both of you 🙂
And yes, I too would be eating all the Chex mix LOL!!
>> But really. So because we struggled so much to find ourselves early in life, I did a ton of trick shaping with the red one. We love it. It’s our jam. I love shaping tricks. He gets really fucking happy for it.>>
The tricks are GREAT and very useful! He clearly thinks heeling is the coolest trick, so keep playing with it 🙂
>>We are out here cold. It’s 75 degrees and he starts open mouth panting super quick. I can’t appreciate his calming deep breaths when he’s panting!>>
Just a sign of arousal increase in the training environment. Rate of respiration increases! So the take a breath game gets more important to work canine mindfulness 🙂
>>Here’s me eating snacks, huffing Chex mix and moving a shoe. Maybe dog training?>>
The take a breath moments are looking good! Do a short session here and there… and then when you want to work the instant focus, break out of the other game, take a break, and reset for instant focus. Going directly into it was a little confusing for him, about where to look: at the shoe? The mom and the Chex? So for instant focus, you can be standing and holding treats, just like a trick training session. And when the shoe is magnetic, take it to step 2 🙂
Now I am hungry for some cereal for breakfast 🙂 Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>> But that’s what we’ll try next with a lesser toy and work our way up to the “APDB”. >>
This might take two sessions or 100 sessions 🙂 It doesn’t matter how long it takes, because it is important learning 🙂
>>How important is it for the treats/toy to be naked and free for the stealing in my reward chair? For our purpose it’s still ok for them to be in jars?>>
It is important that she is successful, so having them in bags or jars for now is perfectly fine 🙂
>>There’s an agility buddy I will ask to be my first person. She is in class with us and we recently shared a VRBO. So Posh is used to her, likes her, but isn’t used to her in our backyard. She can be our leash runner. Ha!>>
Perfect! Happy Kryptonite!
>>So here’s something I’ve discovered about Posh and her toy possessiveness. If she tugs with a toy, she is more possessive of it than if we just play fetch, no matter the value of the toy. So, if we do a sequence and I reward her by holding out the toy for her to run, grab, and tug, she has more trouble letting it go (possibly hanging on my arm with her paw or jumping repeatedly at me to grab it back) for our next sequence, than if I throw the same toy for reward and we play fetch. Weird? Normal?>>
Normal! As the arousal gets higher, the body chemistry of the dogs will change – and we often see the dogs struggling to let go of the toy. It is simply a barometer of how high her arousal is – in those moments, note it and bring her back to a more centered state with cookie tricks in between toy play moments. We are always looking for that optimal state of arousal 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> >She really likes the T&T as reward.
Was the T&T on her reward station? Many dogs love love love the T&T on the reward station!
>>I also prime the cup holder of the chair with two to 3 different kinds of treats that she gets to gobble up. We did pattern games, foot target games and she was able to bark before “entering the ring” through all her reps.
Great!
>>About half way through, one of the students, who Tango really likes, brought his puppy out and played tug and did some stanchion work on the jump. Tango and I then entered the ring as he moved away from the jump still tugging and playing with his puppy. That definitely upped the kryptonite for her, but while she wasn’t as ‘up’ as I would like her, she was still able to check in with me on entering the ring and when I took her leash off. She also was able to take the jump enthusiastically. I was pretty pleased overall.>>
This is also great – it sounds like a happy kryptonite 🙂 Yay! Since she had a little bit of trouble (not being as “up” as before) stick with happy kryptonite for now – and we can plan to add some less-happy kryptonite like noise. Does she notice the bang of the teeter at all? I think noise is hard for her and also gates – movement and noise. You can have the previous dog exiting through a gate but she does not see a gate as she enters, if that makes sense.
>>So, here is my challenge and question: Tango’s ball is not enough of a reward for her in the ring or out of the ring to bring enough value to our FEO runs. I have entered her in two runs of a USDAA trial that I want to run FEO, but need some help brainstorming how to do this well for her.>>
Will she interact with it as a bridge to the primary reinforcement? For example: when I was doing a lot of NFC with Nacho, I would throw his ball (he would go get it, but it was NOT a primary) and then as he was getting it, I was running for the exit and then he got his T&T which is a primary reinforcement. I have video of that somewhere that I can dig up 🙂 It is one of the reasons that he is so great at flyball – the ball is the bridge to the primary reinforcement, so he goes to get it as fast as he can, in order to get back really fast for the cheese LOL!! It was a real problem solver in terms of focus and engagement.
I am also a big fan of entering a whole lot of runs so I can have multiple short blasts (thankfully UKI is inexpensive and most USDAA might be too?) So if she really will not interact in a reinforcing way with the ball, you ca do short blasts in and out of the ring to treats. Are any of the USDAA classes the MISC class? Last I checked, you could go out, get a treat, come back in. And I think there are more UKI trials in your area that might be useful and fun!
>>I have been really working hard on the pre-ring offered behaviors and the remote reinforcement as I think these will be key for success with her.
Totally agree! And adding the Kryptonite games will help too 🙂
>>I am trying to build massive value into the delayed reinforcement and get the optimal mental state from the pattern and instant focus things. Any other suggestions? >>
The ball-as-bridge is a good addition, meaning that when you throw the ball, it predicts heading out too get the primary (FOOD :)) You won’t be able to get more than one rep of it at the trial because you are heading put of the ring, but you can prime the pump for it in training with the games you describe above: ball-then-T&T 🙂 Criteria for the ball? Chase it a bit, she doesn’t have to grab or play or love it, just chase it. And at the trial, ask a friend to be ready to go get it for you because she is not likely to carry it out LOL!!
For USDAA, ask the judge if you can throw it – it is generally fine in a 1 ring trial. Who is the judge? (The thrown ball is not fine in AKC – and totally fine in UKI :))
>>I think that because she is aging that I need to be careful with how many times I use the jump up and touch my hand reward. Any thoughts on that?
Good point!! Spins might replace some of that? And barking on cue – only her vocal cords will get sore LOL!
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
Is he in a regular group class? Can any of your classmates act as rung crew, or provide some distractions by having their dogs out and about? He definitely can use some more trial-like distractions to practice his games!
Tracy
Good morning!
> I noticed in some of the videos you are able to use food while in line by the ring. What do you do with the food as food is not allowed in the ring? NADAC does not allow food within 10 feet of the ring so i can’t use it when the dogs are waiting in line but I did start leaving something near the ring for between runs since the crate area is far away.>>
Yes, UKI and USDAA and AKC allow food all the way up to the ring gate and at the location where you can see some of the NFC runs – the area was really tight so the only good waiting spot was by the ring 🙂
For NADAC and I think also ASCA where food is not allowed that close? In those instances, I have my reward station out 10 feet (or more) past the exit, and I do almost all of my waiting 10 feet away from the ring where food is legal 🙂 Then at the very last minute, I move into line then basically run into the ring when it is my turn. Otherwise you end up potentially waiting a long time without food and the state of arousal can fizzle out and he might get stressed.And if the gates steward tries to rush you into line? Smile politely and tell him/her that you promise to be on the line before the judge needs you to be (because you will be jogging in LOL!) It works well – it does require being an advocate for the dog, but that is good!
>> at the NFC runs you will want to not ask for a stay
What would that lineup look like? I usually just take his leash off, wait for him to come back and then get him over the first obstacle as quick as possible. >>For your first run, position him on an angle or near a tunnel so it is really easy to just go go go. For the first run, try to take off the leash and wait for him to look at you. The instant he looks at you? Cue the first obstacle and run run run 🙂
It is hard to know exactly what he will do at the trial – he has a history of the behavior of moving away then coming back at the start line Ike in the video, but for the last 6 weeks he has had a LOT of reinforcement for engagement when the leash comes off. So – this is mainly an assessment to see how much the reinforcement has shifted his reflexive response, and what else we need to do 🙂
>>Often he will come back and lie down near me so I just spin him over. His last start at NADAC before this class.>>
You can try asking for some of his favorite tricks as you move to the line, before taking the leash off.
So in my perfect happy world, he will immediately engage and NOT leave, like in class, so you can just get started for the first run (and then plan to add more for the next run). But since we are looking to see what he does in the more challenging environment, it is possible he might take longer to engage, or he might leave and come back – it is all good, just information. So if he takes longer or leaves then comes back, you can still cue the first obstacle and run run run 🙂 You can totally make up your own fast and fun course!And for the first run – run with a toy in your hand so it is just like home! Even if you don’t play til the run is finished, have it visible.
>> with the leash runner and he had trouble staying. I was wondering if maybe he just didn’t have a long stay
The leash was hanging down and caught his attention similar to the run Thru. He does not have a good stay the more excited he gets the more it goes. I just get him to the line and go. At trial that’s the point he takes off and runs around to leash or whatever.>>UKI is a really competitor friendly organization, so you can totally tell the leash runner that you are running NFC and he is learning to ignore the leash runner… so to please stand still while he is starting and not grab the leash and walk away til he is into his run.
>> I noticed that he stayed engaged during discussion with your instructor and got right back to work
Yes, that’s much improved and I didn’t really have to do much>>This is GREAT!!!!!
>> What did you enter?
Jump Height: 8 Regular
Event Date Event Level
April 24,2022 (Sunday) Gamblers-1 Beginner
April 24,2022 (Sunday) Agility-1 Beginner
April 24,2022 (Sunday) Speedstakes-1 BeginnPerfect!! So you can start anywhere you want in Gamblers and I believe you don’t have to start at the start jump if it is hard to find a good line – you can ask them to start the timer for the NFC on whichever jump you need to start on. That first run is an assessment – how does he feel on the start line? And do a short fast run, then out to the rewards. Yay!
If he has questions, do the same thing on the second run.
If he has no questions, we can add in a line up and short stay on the next run(s).
You had mentioned that is might be possible to take him up there the day before to play some games and get acclimated – let me know if that is still possible 🙂
I will be at a flyball tournament so I will be able to get to my email and messenger all day! If you want to send updates and ask questions, feel free to put it here in the forum, or email agilityuniversity@gmail.com or facebook messenger 🙂 That way if you have in-the-moment questions or planning, I am happy to help 🙂
Have fun!
Tracy
