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Good morning!
>>Everyone is like…WOW…..lol.
Yes – that is what I am like when I watch your videos too! Wow!!
>> I have decided to use ‘Push” for the BS wrap and stick with “Back” for the BC serp. That’s going to work good.
Perfect!!
>>Maybe even retrain Jedi.
My Voodoo is almst exactly the same age as Jedi, and he has all the new verbals too – mainly because I can only remember one set of verbals so he HAS to hear the same ones as the youngsters 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
>>We have been doing lots of short simple reps with the three wing Zig Zags and I feel that it is all coming together for Kip.
Totally agree! I think he has the idea of the pattern we were looking for – he is nice and tight to the wings, shifting back and forth nicely, and you’re not having to work too hard to get him to do it 🙂 YAY!!
The next thing to do is the send’n’serp game which has an emphasis on slice jumping – starting at walk then building to a run 🙂 It will be a good application for him to transfer the skill and will help us figure out what he needs for serpentine understanding as you add more motion 🙂
>>Interestingly I ran my other two experienced Agility dogs on this exercise and it also took bit of work to get them to take the trailing arm cue since they had been trained with an outside threadle arm cue.>>
That makes sense – the trailing arm on threadles is entirely trained as I don’t think it has a lot of natural motion to it that makes it intuitive for the dogs. The cross arm threadle is a little more naturally intuitive.
>>Am I correct in my understanding that by training this slice serp/theadle with just the trailing arm cue allows the bent threadle arm cue to be used in addition to the trailing arm when a stronger cue is desired?>>
There are a LOT of opinions on this in agility-land LOL!!!! On serpentines, it is now widely accepted that all you need is the trailing arm (although it is possible that the Derrett system and OMD system both still use the cross arm on serps? I admit to having fallen a bit out of touch with both of those systems).
For threadles… so many opinions! Some folks only ever use the cross arm, some never use it, some use each in specific situations. It will come down to the needs of the dog and how the handler feels about it 🙂 For me, I fall more into the British/European style of the trailing arm (open door) style of threadle is how I start training it and then I use that on the easier threadles and when I am in a good position. I also teach the dog the cross arm threadle and it is on really hard threadles and especially when I am behind or out of position (or both haha). But the verbal is the same regardless of which arm I use – the verbal names the dog’s behavior, not my behavior 🙂And I use a cross arm serp on all tunnel threadles (and a verbal that is different from the jump threadles).
Sooooo much to obsess on LOL! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I feel the pain of the video editing LOL!!! He is doing well here 🙂The jazzed up downhills looked really good! No worries about overrunning the cookies on 2 of the reps, those were just little crimes of passion LOL He is getting a lot of speed on a game that doesn’t usually elicit a lot of speed but he is also shifting his weight really nicely on most of the reps and that is GREAT! Yay!
The next step here is to get the board to the ground… but that also requires him understanding how to go to the target with no cookies on it with the bang game. I looked back at the April 14 bang game video and he looked good! On that session, you were stationary or sending him ahead. So before you go to the full downhill, warm him up with a few reps of the bang game with you walking a bit. If that goes well – onwards! Do the downhill with some walking, just to introduce it and then we can add more motion 🙂
Wobble board – there seemed to be a bit of frisbee staring at the beginning! This is a GREAT game to work through the visual of the frisbee with a behavior that is opposite of the running that the frisbee elicits. You can just use a plank and hold the frisbee – a great opportunity to work through how to earn the high value reinforcement 🙂
On the session with the MM – yes, there might have been a bit of lumping 🙂 One thing that will help is if the MM is even further, so it is a more distinct decision: stop in target position, or go to the MM which is several strides away. It was close enough here that he could kinda reach it while sorta targeting, so I think it was grey at the beginning. He was totally getting the idea at the end! So you can flip the order of festivities in the next session: with the MM 8 feet away or so, warm up the behavior by sending him (from the side) then from behind the board. Then if that is all good… add in walking forward.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Both games here went well!
He was much more successful with staying in position when you were on his left – breaking it down to get more success helps a lot! And when he had a little question at :25 and on the next rep, you split the motion into smaller steps and he was successful again. Yay! Very nice. Remember that he is just at the beginning of this end position learning, and he is doing really well!
Releasing to the MM worked nicely. When you throw back a reward, yes: he has to leave position to get it but he is moving back behind him to get it (which builds value in NOT stepping forward out of position, which is what he wants to do). So basically the throw-back rewards act to counter-balance the urge to step forward by making stepping forward inefficient, because the reward will actually come behind him 🙂
So keep doing this type of session for a while longer: before adding more, we will want to have 2 sessions in a row of about 90% success (which is going to be 1 error or less). Then you can add in more motion, gradually. I think once he gets that understanding on both sides, things will move very quickly!The elevator game is looking REALLY good too! He stopped noodling, just did a little tap dancing hahaha So now – you can add a little more height by raising the board a bit more after he jumps on it, then do the countdown and target cue. I am sure that will be fine, so then we will be able to add motion to this one too.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
He was such a good boy with the elevator warm ups here – he was adorable with his ball 🙂 And he totally had his game face on – didn’t look concerned at all. He looked happy happy happy and engaged. And yes – weight shifting!! Woot!It looks like the food was on the target on all of these reps. So for the next session, structure it just like you did here (elevator game to start and when he was happy, the downhill runs across the board) but without the cookie pre-placed on the target. That means you will either need to be close to the board so you can get there fast to get the reward to him, or you can release him forward to a toy. Now that the board is hitting the ground, we can fade out the use of the pre-placed cookies on the target but maintain the high rate of reinforcement with speedy delivery 🙂
In your on-the-road session (tomorrow I think) you can start with one elevator for a pre-placed cookie. Then if he is happy, go to one rep without a pre-placed cookie. If he is happy, go to downhills: first rep is with the pre-placed cookie, then if he is happy: shift to speedy delivery and not pre-placed cookies 🙂 Basically, read his expression: happy game face, like this video? And success? You can move to the next step. If at any point he either looks concerned or he fails – take it back a step to get him happy and successful.
The rebound game also did not appear to be a concern for him at all. In fact, he just looked at you and shifted his weight: WHAT A GOOD DUDE!
About calling the teeter something… because he is getting on from the table, no need to call it anything yet. You have your target cue going and that is perfect for now! When we add games next Monday – we will install a teeter cue as well. More on that coming soon.
Great job here! Let me know how he does tomorrow!
Tracy
Good morning! Great job here!
This is the hardest game for mechanics and you are doing really well! At this point, I think it will be easier to not use the squeeze cheese can (sorry, Nuptse haha) because it takes up so much room in your hand! So when he hops on, you can now move to giving just one cookie and then start the countdown – that will take out the visual of the cheese can (again, sorry, Nuptse :)) so he can focus forward to the target during the countdown. He was starting to do that here REALLY nicely! And he was better when you did not have the cheese can right there 🙂
His target position looked great! So now you can move to the next step:
Using not quite as much tip as you had here, do everything the same except after the countdown and the paw cue and you let go – start to walk forward to challenge him to hit and hold the target position – then either run back and reward or release forward to reward.
Like with the bang game, keep walking forward for 2 or 3 more steps after you are sure he is definitely stopped in position to avoid accidentally decelerating or stopping with him (and so he doesn’t rely on you stopping to get him to stop).
If he is fine with walking after a couple of reps? Add some crosses! Add some speed! It is basically the same progression of adding motion and distractions that you have already done with the plank and the bang game 🙂Great job here! He is lining up perfectly for the next set of games!!!
TracyHi!
The downhills look really strong too. He is definitely the epitome of progressive value building: he is a wild man for the teeter now!!! After each rep, keep working/luring/bribing him to get him to NOT try to jump on in random places or start without you hahaha!! You can use a tab if you have one, to save your back from bending over the whole time 🙂Because the dogs start from a standstill, we don’t get a lot of speed here but that is intentional because we don’t want them to fling themselves off by accident 🙂 By he end of the session, the downhill was definitely going uphill too – super! He is still thinking about it a bit so do a couple more sessions like this, picking up where you left off here in terms of angle/height of the board. That will bring us directly into the next set of games which he is going to be fully ready for: EXCITING!!!!
Other than continuing to reward this like crazy, one tweak for you: now that you are adding motion, try to keep moving for 3 steps more after he stops. You were in the rhythm of stopping with him (also might have been a good effort to not run into the wall haha) so you can add challenge with continuing to move for several more steps AND maybe toss in a blind cross or two 🙂
Great job here!!!!
TracyHi! He did really well here! The ball replacing the MM was higher stimulation but not a problem… YAY!!!! He was still really successful which is very happy-making 🙂 And no worries about the throws not being perfect, he knew to look straight (my youngest dog just keeps running forward looking straight and up, because she knows my throws are crap but will land out there *somewhere* LOL!!!)
Two little suggestions –
on your very first rep, don’t run as hard. Let him warm up for a heartbeat so that he can remind himself how to use his hind end so he doesn’t get tangled up in the poles. After a ‘calmer’ rep or two, then you can add back more motion – he was great with all of that after the first rep here where he caught his back end.The other thing is that you don’t need to be restricted to using the wings as entry points – yes, you can use them but you can also send from the harder entries around the clock, so he can hit and hold the weaves from anywhere 🙂
You can add those in on the next steps, which I think he is ready for 🙂
>>Do you think we are ready for the 6 and 4 game?>>
Almost but not yet. Since he was on 4 poles here (I think by the end they were completely straight) – Next step can be adding poles 5-6 for a couple of sessions til they are basically straight as well. Then do the Find Em 3 game for a couple of sessions to make sure he can find the entry and stay in, with the temptations of the tunnel and the motion 🙂 That game requires 6 poles, but the poles can be a little open (don’t need to be straight).
Then when he is proficient at both of those for a couple of sessions each… onwards to 6-and-4 🙂 6-and-4 is easy for the dogs so getting 6 poles great and also the Find Em is more important: I figure you will get to the 6-and-4 game next week at this time because now that the poles are straight, a session every other day so we don’t overwork his body puts us into next week. But that is perfect, because 6-and-4 easily builds to all the straight poles.
Let me know what you think! Great job here 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Things are going well here! Some ideas for you:first, with both sessions, the frisbee is both a great reward and the biggest distraction. It elicits that ‘run out’ behavior because he is used to it being thrown. So in order to be able to use if more effectively as reinforcement, you can change the way you play with him for it. Ask for thoughtful, control, tight-to-you behaviors then reward with the throw. For example, leg weaves, or chin hold, or even a stay. One of my dogs is completely insane for discs so the routine is that he offers a sit stay, I lead out, I release him and do a short throw. That way he gets the joy of frizzer without any of the flanking or running wide without thinking about behavior other than “WHERE’S THE FRIZZ” LOL! I have not taught him to go around me and then run in anticipation of the disc throw, even though the disc instructors want me to teach that haha!
So take a look at how you play with him with the disc and we can change that so it becomes more effective as a reinforcement but still have a great time with discs.And we can use the disc to raise the value of the MM – carry the disc with you but reward with the MM on most reps, then he can have the disc after eating the cookies. That helps balance arousal and will also help him love the MM more because it is paired with the disc. And you can ‘up’ the value of what is in the MM by mixing in stinky delicious stuff with the treats – I mix in stinky cheese with the kibble so the kibble smells/tastes a little better 🙂
On the weave sessions – the setup for the channels was good, I think you can tighten them even more 🙂 And the MM can be a little further away so he can take a couple of extension strides to get to it after leaving the poles. Because he has a harder time on your left side than on your right when arousal comes up – start the sessions on your left as he tends to be less aroused at the start, then move to your right side when he is more stimulated later in the session. That can help you get a higher rate of success!
2 other things that can help make the success rate even higher:
Move on all the reps at this point (here and in the 2×2 games too), no more standing still 🙂 He is getting used to you *not* moving so we need to be sure that he sees moving all the time now, because you will be moving 99% of the time while he weaves. Slow moving, and carrying the frizz but rewarding with the MM. And be otherwise pretty calm 🙂>>Chapter was running wide to the right when he was anticipating the frisbee throw and ended up weaving the three poles on that side of the channel.>>
I think he was vortexing a bit, meaning anticipating the throw so popping out and then trying to resend himself. So after a success, you can reward with the MM then have him come tug on the frizzer or do a short throw or grab. And after an error, call him back and reset either between your feet or with a chin rest or trick – then reward with a cookie from a pocket. That will help him balance the arousal which will raise the rate of success overall too 🙂
On the 2×2 session:
>>This was also a new location and direction for him to weave in.>>
Great! And the angles were good too!!! We are starting to see real weaving here!
A couple of ideas:
As he is balancing the arousal with the frizzer and learning the tighter poles, you can clarify the line ups and sends – when you are on the 1-2-3-4-5 side of the poles, make sure you start on your right not on your left for now. Same on the 11-10-9-8 side – start him on your left on those. He is confused when you send from between your feet or on threadle entries and fails on almost all of them. So, since the variable is tighter poles and also motion, we don’t need to worry about the threadle side sends, those can go back in later on.At this point, move on all reps 🙂 No more sending and being stationary 🙂 Send and start walking up the line so he gets used to the movement – and if he struggles, not worries: don’t take out the motion, you can open the poles up a little for a session or two.
And as with the channels – build a routine of line up, send, MM, frisbee tug, line up, send, lather rinse repeat 🙂 And if there is an error, skip right into the line up/reset and give a cookie so he can maintain the state of arousal and doesn’t try to fix it without you sending him 🙂
I think for now that this routine will help: he is getting the poles when you throw the frisbee and you don’t really move… but I think we need the opposite where you are moving a lot! So for now, just carry the frisbee (that is plenty stimulating) and reward from the MM then he can have a little frizzer moment with you.
Let me know if that makes sense! I am excited to work out the reinforcement here because it will help him learn to weave but more importantly, it will help you figure out how to balance his arousal and that will transfer beautifully to trials!!!
Nice work 🙂
TracyMM then disc will raiset he value ofthe MM
Hi!
She looked great here! This is exactly what the goal was: get her going fast TO the poles and not thinking about it at all. Yay!I think the angle of the poles should stay the same as they were at about :23 for now. She was blasting towards them. When you got them straighter like at :42, she trotted. Since we don’t want any rehearsal of the trotting or thinking hard… I suggest staying with the slightly open poles like at :23 and just throwing them into a sequence for multiple sessions over the week. It can be straight line sequences like this, or curved sequences – anything where she can recognize the poles and blast to them. If we are getting repeated blasting… the next step would be to add poles 3-4 at the same angle. But the main thing is to let this percolate without changing any variables that might make her think about being accurate 🙂 Depending on weather and schedule, I recommend 4 sessions similar to this over the course of the next 6 days or so. Then if we like what we see… poles 3-4 can go it. We already know that she is fine with the angles of entry and staying in, so we can isolate the drive to the poles and let it percolate before adding back the stuff she already knows 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense! I love her speed here!!
TracyHi! These were two really interesting sessions to watch back-to-back.
On the first video, I was really excited by his success – he was consistently getting it right, even on left side angles he was having trouble with previously. He did have an error here and there – sometimes not quite enough connection on the wing exit so he was watching you and not looking at the poles, or at 2:02 you did a spin and that distracted him a bit so he missed. But overall – really nice! And with the poles at this width, definitely add more motion so you can build to running. We want to be sure he understands how to get the weaves while you run, before we make the poles tighter.
On the 2nd video, though, he was avoiding the weaves more. I don’t think it was because you tightened them, but maybe it was enough of a change that he couldn’t get it? It was not because of too much motion or bad angles – but he was definitely avoiding (offering wings instead of the poles). And I don’t mean avoiding in any ‘naughty’ way – he was not sure of what to do so he was trying to be correct. Good boy.
So, why was he doing that? Hmmmmmm…. could be that the poles were a little too tight. Could be that he was getting too stimulated by the MM (he was flanking out around the poles on the left side and looking at it while he was doing it). Could be that this 2nd session woke up some soreness or whatever was bothering him previously?
I went back to the video from April 16th – it looks like the tightness of the poles there was the same as the tightness of this 2nd video? If so, we can game plan – it might be an understanding thing of how to use his body. Also, if I recall correctly, you mentioned he doesn’t love it when things touch him: maybe we have reached the tightness where he will feel the poles and he doesn’t like it! Let me know what you think.For the next sessions: We can focus on getting him to do the tighter poles with you moving and the poles touching him 🙂 I suggest 2x2s for that, because only have 4 poles is easier and it gets the rewards in faster. Looking back at the last 2×2 session here, it looks like the first base was at about 1&7 and and the 2nd set was wider. So keep the first base at 1&7 and angle the 2nd base to 1&7 as well but make it maybe 2 feet away so he has a little extra room. You don’t need the wings for this (plus no wings means the weaves are the thing to offer :)) And do angles plus have your motion going too – fast walking, jogging, and then eventually we will build to running. If he struggles, we can widen them. If he is fine with it, we can tighten them 🙂 And when they are pretty tight and touching him, we can go back to channels but the 2x2s will help for now 🙂
Let me know what you think! We will get him figured out 🙂
TracyHi!
I relate – I spend a lot of time checking the weather LOL!!! He did really well here: each time you get him into the outdoor environment, he shows massive improvements in being able to ‘find’ the poles. His focus and engagement looks great, like usual 🙂 Yay!Bearing in mind that the outdoor environment is so powerful – you don’t need to try to close the poles to where they are indoors. You can leave them pretty open while you layer distractions. The outdoor environment is a biggie, and so is your motion 🙂 So before closing the poles, leave them at 1&7 or 2&8 (wherever he is most successful) and add both harder angles AND work up to you being able to run. This took 4 or 5 sessions with my dogs, spread out over a couple of weeks (because, well, weather LOL!)
Then you can tighten them gradually – and with more experience outdoors, it will allow him to more quickly match what he can do indoors in his home base training center. And you can move forward indoors to straight poles and other challenges (like going to 6 poles) – it is kind of lime 2 separate training tracks 🙂Great job here!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
:>You are so funny. Eekk! Yea. At least she is not at the low end of that jump height. She’s right in the middle. Yea. Perfect. She really isn’t as little as she looks sometimes.>>
She is basically the same size as my Export was in his prime – he was super competitive in USDAA and UKI, and also did really well in AKC against the bigger Border Collies 🙂 She is going to be very competitive!!
T
Hi! Wow Joni she looks great, this is a lovely session! Great job with all of your connections and verbals and running lines and throws and all the things. SO AWESOME!
All of the Go reps looked great, she is smoking you and that is what we want. Yay!On the RCs, I watched in slow motion – you got her head turned before takeoff on all of them, right AND left turns. I don’t think you were helping too much, it looked good to me. There was one that was a little wide but I think that she was looking at something out ahead – no worries about it, they were all great.
On the backsides – great connection! I don’t think you were blocking the wing when she was a little wide, I think she was just feeling the wind in her hair and all of the rewards are thrown out ahead LOL! So one thing to do is to slow down your motion a little so you are not as stimulating. And one more idea: throw the reward to the landing spot as you move through, so she realizes that we want her to wrap tighter as the momma moves ahead on the line. That means dropping the reward in behind you a bit so she looks there and will therefore turn tighter 🙂
Great job here!!!! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
