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TracyHi!
>>Frisbee and holy roller are super high value and, yes, I do use them. I just had a tug toy with small holy roller and 6ā³ handle made and being sent to me. I want to get some high value on that if possible.>>
Great! I use all sorts of soft and hard frisbees for my friz crazy dogs. Keep in mind that is doesn’t really matter what type of toy it is, or what their play style is – it is more about getting more arousal and engagement.
>>Morning play is just Brisk and I, evening is the pack.
try for more play sessions with just you an at different times of day, so the play is not just a time of day or situational thing.
>>Yes, he is able to play at trials, but we usually have a fair amount of distance between play area and ring craziness. I will keep that up and aim for moving closer as his behavior permits.
Awesome!!
>>Should play at practice be first? Short as to not tire him out too much?
yes – just short play blasts and be done before he wants to be done. 30 seconds at a time!
>>We are under a winter storm warning, 9 a.m. today until 5 p.m. on Wednesday, ugh. Hopefully it will fizzle out, but you just never know (Better than I95 in Virginia; however).
Ugh, winter. Thankfully I am about 5 hours west of I-95 in VA, that is pretty awful!!
T
Hi!
>> I will be going to a longer toy but I should be rewarding from the cross body arm, correct?
Yes, you can reward across the body but the main thing is to not be facing her.
>> With the way omicron is going locally right now not sure the arena is an option for the next bit.>>
Yeah, that is true, times are hard. She is young so we are not behind in any way. Plenty of time.
Rotated rocking horses ā
>>I agree totally, all that needs to be on verbals but I also worry about how hard turns (like the typical into the tunnel under the contact) might be on the dogs body, especially on the AF.>>
Thankfully that course design element is either illegal or really out of fashion that I would not worry about it. If you see it here or there in USDAA, it is not worth worrying about – I would just handle the exits with a tandem turn or scratch the run (I scratch runs that have silly course design elements or I make up my own course :))
>> I also worry about the running AF period given the number of dogs I watch on videos that are seriously inverting their spines over the top because they havenāt been trained really well or are trying to get over the top way too fast, and these are high level dogs and handlers in so many cases.>>
Yes, the inverting is bad but as you said – that is just poor training. I think the hard part of the RAF is the upside – lots of impact.
>>So think I would have to teach both running and stopped.
>>Lengthwise so it is still long enough to get a stride on it, correct?
Yes, it is just a smaller square than it is now.
Get out:
>>that might be it with the tossed treats, she definitely gets more focused on the floor when I toss treats for her and it doesnāt really matter what the game is.
I support that! I prefer to use a sit to start a lot of these games. The tossed cookies should be occasional, not all the time š
>>Ok, think I get it better now. I would use āall doneā for this I think. It basically means the game is over and I will usually play tug or something with them at that point but not always.>>
You can also think about what you might say at the end of the agility run. That is why I use “let’s go” because it is a natural part of what I do anyway š
Tracy
Good morning!
These sessions went really well – he seems very happy to play this game and that is great!
The full sentence of “let’s go get your…” is stimulating and also very likely to be something we actually say at the end of a run – very realistic! And, based on how the other dogs came running over too to watch from behind the gate – clearly the sentence and tone have a positive conditioned response. I mean, we have had some Greater Swiss audience in the past but I don’t recall seeing any Poodle participation LOL!!!He had no trouble at all with the cookie section, other than missing a down cue but that might have been because you were in motion when you gave it. He was crisp and responsive to everything else, and certainly seemed engaged and happy! Same with the toy section – my only suggestion is to play with him right before you put the toy down – he seemed a little unsure of what was happening on that first rep with the toy. But then when the toy was in play, he was great with all the rest of it: crisp in his responses and able to ignore the toy til he heard the magic sentence. YAY!!!!
Definitely revisit this here and there, in different places – especially any place that might be like a trial ring, to help build the concept up into somethin really easy and fun. For example, if you are in a training location – you can leave a toy outside the ring, run in, do a couple of tricks, mark, run out. And then replace the tricks with a tunnel! It is just something to add in every now and then.
Great job! See ya later!
TracyGood morning! Happy New Year!
The countermotion was really good at the beginning! If he has a question, 2 ideas for you:
You added distance pretty quickly, so you might want to add it more gradually. At :15, you were several feet further away so you can hear him vocalizing. He went *almost* all the way to the prop, so you can reward that effort! No, he didn’t touch it perfectly, but it was a really good effort. So I would reward it (maybe with a cookie, not the toy) and then get closer on the next one, splitting the difference between where he was very successful on the first few reps and where he had a question at :15. You did that at :21 and he was good – I didn’t see what happened between the ‘no reward’ moment at :16 and the start of the rep at :21 – was that his only oopsie rep where he didn’t get rewarded? If so, that is a good insight into his frustration tolerance – you can reward for effort and immediately get closer to the prop for the next rep, but still do the countermotion. If he had several failures, you can still reward for effort but you can ask for another rep before it (depending on the dog, I might allow 2 failures before changing anything).
About rewarding for effort – because he did really well at :15 but was not quite spot on, you can deliver a cookie and also reset him for the next rep with that cookie. That can keep the overall rate of reinforcement really high while also allowing you to isolate the behavior and reduce frustration.
Also, take a look at the reward marker discussion from week 7:
I think adding a reward marker for the toy will really help reduce frustration for him by letting him know when the toy in your hand is available (and to otherwise ignore it in order to earn it). I use ‘bite’ when I want the dog to grab the toy in my hand, and it can replace the click at this point.
Stationary sideways and backwards sends were good! You can add in some countermotion, starting nice and close and moving slowly.
>>Youāll see with some of the backwards sends that he spins and backs up to the prop, is that ok?>>
Yes, sorta LOL!! I agree with the reinforcement that you did – but it is also him asking a question because you were further away. So if he asks the question once by turning around and backing up, that is fine – reward like you did. But then on the next rep, start a little closer. And you can also click for the decision to go towards the prop, so he understands that it is not a hind end behavior. The prop hits do not need to be perfect, we are just using the prop for concept work to before moving to the fancy stuff. I also think his turning around is an indication that he is (correctly) predicting the reinforcement is going to be back at you, so he is being efficient LOL!!! You can click sooner to help reduce that, and you can also mix in some tossed reinforcement out past the prop to keep him looking ahead because turning tight back to you is clearly a strength of his.
Running contacts:
>>Is it ok that he often turns his head to look at me rather than continuing straight to where the food shows up?>>
He definitely trends towards wanting to look at you and drive to you, and it is nearly impossible to isolate his feet in the box or on the mat from looking at you. So with that in mind amd since he has value for the box and the mat , we change the setup so he cannot both look at you AND hit the mat. You started doing some of this towards the end, where you were behind him and he moved forward to the MM (starting at about 1:35).Keep doing that, with one more tweak: don’t click him fo coming back to you after going to the MM -instead, call him back to a reset cookie, then release him to move forward through the box again.
So if he is on your left side heading to the box and the MM, you would turn, face the other direction (away from the camera, in this setup) and call him back to you on your left side (putting yourself between him and the box) – then reward, then turn to face the MM again, then send him through. That way he does not go back through the box to reset to you (because we don’t really want to encourage more looking at you. He did really well moving away from you to the MM and not looking at you, so we can keep going with that!Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>We play lots of tug games at night (since it so darn cold, we canāt go out and chase the frisbee so we play tug and chase the toy/bring it back, tug tug tug, in the house.
Will he chase a frisbee as part of training? Or tug on it? I use frisbees a lot in training because they are super high value!
>> Everyone is involved and it gets supers crazy . . . he loves it, lots of different kinds of play, but the others are involved too. Should I focus more just on him, or is this increasing value as well?
It can’t hurt to do it with all the others as long as they are not trampling each other š , but we also do want you to get involved so he learns to play directly with you without the stimulation of the others around.
>> We are working big dogs first, so maybe while others are working I will play with him a bit and see how that goes. We do that at trials, but we are further away than the barn would allow.>>
Is he able to play at trials? If he cannot play while other dogs are working (it might be too distracting), you can try it when it is his turn. That is more important than any training skill!
T
Hi!
>>she was trying to get a treat from my empty hand
That reminds me of one other thing – have you added reinforcement markers so she knows when the treat is available or not? That can help clarify when she should focus on the cookies in your hand or ignore them to move away from them.
T
Good morning!
Rocking horse first video – She definitely is cleaner on the barrels when you are cleaner and her commitment is looking really stronger! When you are doing a single wrap, finish your rotation fully so you are not facing her when you are presenting the toy, which probably means start rotating as soon as she is arriving at the barrel. Everything went well here (keep reminding yourself of the words LOL, I feel that pain). She had two little questions:
She didn’t go to the 2nd barrel at 1:02, I think it was because you were a little early and your arm was too high (bearing in mind that she is a puppy) so she didn’t commit. Compare that to the next rep at 1:19 – slower transition and lower arm and she was lovely! So strange as it sounds – as long as you keep moving, you don’t need to be fast šAt 1:46 she exited a wrap and was looking around, towards the camera. I don’t think she was looking for a thrown reward, I think it is possible that you were blocking line to 2nd barrel so she was looking around to see where to go. Puppies are every literal LOL!
>>maybe not enough distance between barrels anyways?>>
The distance here was good! And any more distance will get more speed, and she slips on the mats here when she tries to go fast. So I think that means that the rocking horses need to go to better footing now – I am sure you have snow on the ground, so maybe at the arena or if you have a grippy carpeted area?
Rotated rocking horses –
>>With trying to get some of it more correct I probably wasnāt transitioning very well,>>
Yes, when she didn’t go (like on the first rep, 2:06) you were slamming on the brakes. When she got it nicely, you decelerated into the rotation (2nd rep, for example) and she was lovely! It was challenging for sure and she have the most questions about when the toy was in play and when it was not in play. So if you have toy in the send hand (which is good because it makes for really fast reinforcement), you absolutely need to use some type of “bite” marker so she knows when it is in play. That marker is more important than the wrap verbals for now, because she needs to know when to ignore the toy and when to grab for it – I think that was her main question here. “Yes” and other praise should not be the toy marker – I think your marker is tug it (you used it on the last rep) – so when you unfurl the toy, just say ‘tug it’ which serves the dual-purpose of marking the behavior and telling her to get the toy. I think that clarification will make these even smoother for her!
Running contacts:
>>I have pondered at times doing running for situations where it made sense but Iām super slow so donāt see how it could work on a lot of courses and I do USDAA which still allows those tight turns from contacts into tunnels, AAC effectively doesnāt anymore with some recent changes and UKI isnāt local yet.
For running contacts, training the exits with verbals (not handling) becomes a really critical piece. There are some folks out there that say you can do it all with just handling… but the vast majority of the agility world recognizes the need for trained exits and distance work with the RDW.
>>So think I would have to teach both running and stopped.
You can if you like, doing both is just another form of training exits with verbals. I like to teach the RDW foundation to puppies because it is great hind end awareness, and it is also great training for us humans: we learn how to watch striding/footwork, clean mechanics, etc. So even if you don’t teach a RDW, training the foundation is very useful!
>>I know you did it with Export, not sure if you have/are teaching both to any of the other dogs.
Yes, but that was 150 years ago (he is almost 16.5 years old) and the courses are VERY different. I only used his run with a straight exit and a big event so I wouldn’t really call it ‘trained’ LOL Right now, all 3 of my young dogs have RDWs and no stops on the DW. I will only put a stop on if I screw up the RDWs (which is always a possibility :))
She did well here! Try to stand still more and toss the treat with the hand closest to where she is going (rather than the arm across your body) so there is a quick delivery an she looks up at you less.
>doing the Through work using a dog blanket.
At this point, fold over the dog blanket so it is a little elevated and more salient from the other blankets/rugs under it. That way she will have to step up a little and then you can really isolate the clicks for back-feet only. The clicks here had some good back feet clicks but also some front feet clicks, so now you can move to back feet only (2nd back foot, ideally).
>>Sheās sort of interesting in that she seems to move faster in one direction (into the hallway) than the other. The prior session it was even more pronounced.
Do you mean faster going to the right of the screen than to the left of the screen? It might just be that there is a little more room to run in that direction, so you can try it in a different location with more space and see what she does.
>>Iāve been working with the TnT/MM and it doesnāt seem to bother her, sound or noise. Should I add it in for the reward at all?
Yes, if she likes it, go ahead and add it in – you can set up a back-and-forth where she goes one direction towards the MM, then back to you for a reward, and so on.
Get out:
>>Oops on the first couple here I was stepping towards the bag with the outside foot, pretty much corrected it after.>>
Yes, good catch! And that will go away when you add motion before the out send (like you did towards the end).
>>Also, realize now I probably shouldnāt have called her name on the couple that we didnāt do the out on and just done a normal release to see if she would simply come to my side.
her name was fine here, she correctly never considered the out, and you can definitely try the release too and see what she does.
She did perfectly with the value for the prop as well. It was correct to move to the next level of the game in the 2nd video! I am glad you isolated the ‘get it’ as the reward marker in place of the praise – she will look at you with the praise, and we want to avoid that as much as possible. “get it’ worked nicely!
You can also try this with you arm a little lower, so you can keep your feet straight as you add more motion.
A bit about the food get it – if she is chewing as you cu the next out, she is always a bit sloppier than on the reps where she is not chewing. So if she is not able to swallow the cookie fast enough for the next rep to be really clean, then we need to change the setup so you don’t reward sloppy (and so you don’t withhold a reinforcement when it is not her fault, it is a setup/mechanics error). So you can change the setup by using a stay before each rep – she is in a stay, you start moving up your line, then cue the out as the release (or a release if you don’t want the out on that rep).
Or, use food that is more easily swallowed (I know, that is hard – soft cheese is usually the answer). You can use easily swallowed food for the start and for the reward, or you can use a tossed toy for the reward, then reset her back around to the start for the next rep by tossing a soft, easily swallowed treat. The mechanics of the reset are more important than the speed of the reset.Serps – two general things: you can use a longer jump “bar” now (two rolled up towels laid end to end would work!).
For the angles – keep using a sit. I think she loses interest when there is a tossed cookie and a hand-delivered cookie. And that ends up being a TON of food rewards in all of these sessions over the day.>>She did pretty good until the end when she started anticipating and I didnāt notice a couple because I was looking at the target.
You don’t need to look at the target til after you release her. So, watch her until you release – then as she starts moving, shift your eyes down to the target. That way you can see what she is doing in the sit. And you can also reward a lot of sits! And be sure that you do not release at the same time as you put the target hand in. On a couple of stays in the second video, you perfect about putting the target hand in, waiting for a second or two, then releasing. But there were also several reps where you were releasing at the same time as putting the target hand in position, so she might be associating the hand movement with the release which is why she was releasing before the verbal.
On both sides, she is really getting the idea of the turn here and yes – she was setting up the in and out by herself which is what we want.
>>On this side she only touched the target a couple of times. This is the direction she seems to turn a bit better around the barrel though so maybe why? Should I work on getting the touch even though we are going to fade it in the advanced level?>>
She was not touching because she has figured out the entire behavior. Yay! So no – she no longer needs to touch it, she just needs complete the in and out.
So for your next session, keep the stays going and also you can use a toy as the reward! And if she is happy with that, you can work the toy to the ground (might need to start by dangling it first) or work to the MM being there on the ground too.
Remote reinforcement:
>>Iāve read through and watched the video and still a little confused about the marker word so I have a question. Why are you using an entirely new word/phrase and arenāt using the word that would be appropriate for the type of reward and itās placement? eg if āget itā meant get the treat from where it is why not use that instead of āletās goā? Wouldnāt the word/phrase that accurately describes what and where the reward is make more sense?>>
Because that is not what ‘get it’ means for me š ‘Get it’ means that the dog should pursue the reinforcement that I have thrown out ahead of them (which also implies that I am holding it or placed it out ahead). Get it means the reinforcement is on the course, somewhere, out ahead. In the RR context, the reinforcement is behind the dog (and the dog knows exactly where it is), not on the course and the word basically means “you are finished, let’s proceed to the reinforcement”. That reinforcement might be up on a chair or on the ground outside the ring – looking ahead to using it for trial runs. I don’t have any other markers that indicate this – ‘get it’ is tossed ahead, snacks is from my hand, ‘catch’ is thrown back, ‘bite’ is from my hand, etc. So if I simply run towards the reinforcement then use one of these when I get there, the act of moving towards it is the marker and that can cause big confusion in a training or trialing context where we often run towards or past what the dog perceives as reinforcement (such as the agility courses that swing back around past the exit gate midway though the course). So I use the RR marker from anywhere on course to mean that we are now going to get that reinforcement (there is also an implied element of dog & handler going together).
The only exception I have is for Contraband, the BW – when I use a ‘let’s go’, if the remote reinforcement is a toy and he is really high (just finished running a course, for example), I will also say bite when it is time for him to grab it. This is to give me time to pick it up, protect my flesh and give me time to brace for impact because he hits the toy really hard.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! I am glad your back is feeling better!!
>> Iām thinking she needs at least one more session on each side before mixing it up. What do you think? Iām not sure she knows the verbal as much as this direction is getting rewarded.
Maybe one more session, but I think you can mix it up really soon – too many sessions of just one direction will not help her learn to differentiate the verbals, and that there are 2 potential directions to turn. Easy sessions mixing them both in will help bring her to the harder stuff.
>>Also, Iām hanging onto her until she looks in the correct direction.
That is part of the reinforcement system – letting go of her when she looks the correct direction reinforces that decision with the opportunity to ‘work’ and get to the primary reinforcement. It is still possible she could be wrong, but far less likely.
Toy play looks good! Does she like any touching inthe gentle ‘smack the baby’ style? That can get her really pulling back (when your back is able to handle the extra pulling).
I think you were using Pitch for the toy thrown to/behind her – she was doing some fancy frisbee moves to get it so you can cue her to back up or something so she doesn’t pretzel herself in midair to gte it LOL!
The zuruck is great! That is a cncept that I use for a bunch of stuff – and we teach it to the baby dogs to help with trial start line routines, usnig a toy or leash as the ‘anchor’. In an NFC run when they start trialing, we have built in the leash-as-toy and part of the routine for a lead out is that the leash is behind them – sometimes we release forward into the game, at which point the leash becomes a remote reinforcement. And sometimes we reinforce the start line with the ‘zuruck’ marker to turn back and get it. It has been super useful!!! You can get her a leash that is a tug leash and introduce it as a toy first, to get the ball rolling.Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>She does turn and burn fine, since itās chasing me.>>
An element of turn and burn that will help the rocking horse commitment is if you can leave and do the tight FC going the other direction before she arrives at the barrel. That way she has to leave you and finish her commitment to earn the prize of chasing you š You can start further back and send her so that you have time and room to leave early.
Tracy
Hi!
Yes, bad weather and no internet yesterday for most of the day made for an annoying day! At least the internet is back on today.
>>Yes, and I think she was also thinking STOP TOUCHING ME, IāM WORKING! >>
Ha! Yes, that is very Border Collie LOL!!! Touching during work can be very punishing to them sometimes LOL
On her remote reinforcement game – I kind of like that she is enjoying food enough that it is actually hard for her to leave it at first LOL! She did really well here – you can ask for more tricks that have more movement to them, and when you say ‘candy’ you can explode back to the candy. That can raise the excitement level of the game, especially when food is involved.
She also did well on the contact mat – this is such a great mechanics set up for us humans! I likde the behavior better when it was raised, because she was bouncy and cantering – which will make the clicking easier when isolating back feet. When she was trotting on the flat mat, I think you were trying to click for he first rear foot hit – but in a trot, the first rear foot hits at the same time as the 2nd front foot – so from her perspective, it is possible that she was hearing the click as a frton foot marker (based on when she was looking at you, it is entirely possible). So, let’s go with the cantering because you can see a very clear split rear foot pattern – it is not fully extended yet, but that is fine. So now, delay the click until you see that 2nd rear foot hit. A MM at this point can be helpful too because you don’t need to also throw the cookie – sometimes your arm moves early on the throws (we all do that!)
She is young enough still that we have plenty of time to obsess on this mat work then the rest of the progression will be fairly easy!
Great job here, let me know wat you think!
TracyHi!
He did really well here! Part of increasing toy play is to figure out his preferred play style, and expand on that. He definitely likes chasing it – have you tried letting him win the toy? That can increase tugging too!>> Thought I would add the barrel to play to get him excited about chasing the toy or should I be throwing it?
Chasing versus tossing will depend on the game. This was turn and burn, so it is a chase-the-reward game. For other games, though, use the smaller ones that you can throw (parallel path, for example).
>> How would I incorporate that without a ton of room.
Throw low so it rolls and towards a wall or something it can bounce off of.
>>I can incorporate throwing and playing with the toy then? Let me know whatās best. He really enjoys tugging and chasing, but we havenāt really done a lot when working, just playing (trying to build lots of value).>>
Bearing in mind that at the barn, his agility is associated with food only at the moment. So, before asking for any agility games, just test the water and see if he will play: with no obstacles nearby take a favorite toy into the ring and just start throwing it around – just playing! And try the same with the tug toy. Just play a bit and see what happens.
If he is happy, you can do a bit of training of the fast and fun games with the toys.
Remember, though, that tugging takes a lot more energy than cookie training does so the session needs to be a lot shorter or he will get tired and quit. Even at the end of just 2.5 minutes on the video, he was slowing down. So for the tugging or chasing toys, set a timer on your phone to just 60 seconds and then be done. The goal is to end the game while he is still loving it! Cookie training can go for longer because it is not as tiring.
Have fun! Keep me posted on how he does in the barn!
TracyHi!
>> But, a questionā¦ I would still need to use the treats to start him off at the beginning of the rep right? Or could I also eliminate treats at the start of the session and maybe start him from his platform or something? Thatās no as firm as a stay but still gets me a little ahead and in motion before the cue. >>
You can start with treats if you think the toy will still have value, so you can use treats and toys in the same session.
If you think the toys will lose value when food is present, you can start him from a platform or stay to get the motion going before the cue š
Tracy
