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Hi!
Set point went well! I am glad you moved your position to out by the MM – the handler position on these will always be out by the reward target so we don’t dilute decel cues.He definitely has the concept of this now – the correct ‘bounce’ between the jumps and a strong stay behavior. With the stay – be sure to watch his hind end before the release, there was a bit of butt elevator before the release at 1:05, I think he heard you inhale and was anticipating the release 🙂 So keep throwing reinforcement back to him to maintain the stay.
The MM was not all that exciting for him, plus it is stationary, so he was organized nicely but really not powering through the set point. That is exactly what we want as we get started to be sure the young dogs can organize themselves to jump before we ask for speed. Since he was happy with the concept here, we can go to a toy: a stationary toy to start, then the dragging toy. Be sure to do the dragging toy/moving target pre-game before adding it to the set point, so he can get organized on the flat before he has to do that with a moving toy and 2 jumps.
When the toy gets involved, especially when it starts moving, you might find he has more power and then needs a little more distance between the 2 jumps – and that is fine, you can spread them out by 6 inches or a foot.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi1 I think it is more of a side preference than a value balance issue – plus, if you did the choochoo side first, it might be an arousal thing where he had to ‘remember’ that life is not just about the tunnels 🙂 So for the next session do the digdig side first and see how he does!
T
Good morning!
OMG that toy is both perfect AND hilarious!!! It looks like an actual rabbit on a rope.
She did really well on the set point – no worries about her landing spot – next time, try to set her up maybe 2 or 3 inches from the start jump to see if that gives her a little more power, and measure the distance to see what works best for her to be pretty centered. The stay looked good and she didn’t lose her mind chasing the bunny LOL!She did well with the Wind In Your Hair game! I think the hardest part for her was the start wing, when you were further away and trying to leave sooner. We can strengthen that skill, which will make the rest of the game easier too:
She also had trouble when you were too far from the start wing, so add distance more gradually by holding the send cue a little longer (the arm and leg forward, don’t drop the arm and leg back to do the FC til she is at the wing) and then throw reinforcement to the wing for her commitment – that will allow you to work on getting further from the start wing, which will allow you to get further ahead of her for the jump
then when you are rewarding for the jump – when she is driving ahead, keep moving during and after toy throw. The motion will support the cue, and we don’t want to dilute your decel cues by having her jump in extension because of the toy throw.
She mad a normal young dog error of chasing you and not taking the jump when you were ahead and running, so try to be ahead and walking for now til she can lock onto the jump more. That will need more distance on the send to the start wing so you don’t have to rush. Or, you can have someone hold her so you can walk forward and she will be pumped up and still getting challenged to find the jump when you are way ahead.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! These both looked really good!!
Serps – yes, she is really terrific with her serps so it is a good setup to play around with the verbals. The RIIGHT and LEHFFT definitely sound different than the wraps! Yay! And you can repeat them, as long as they are still kinda slow and stretched out like you did them here. One thing to add:
Say the serp verbals sooner, as she is at the wrap wing so she can associate them with setting up for the jump. You were tending to say the second verbal late (when she was jumping) so if it is a left turn on the wrap wing, say it when she is on her way to the wing but then as soon as she arrives at the wing, switch to the right verbal for the serp jump, so she hears it in time to adjust for the jump (which is easy for her to do in this setup).
You can definitely go to the Serps Part 2 game!! Fun!The backside slices are also looking good. When you stand still, she didn’t get it but that is fine because standing still is the one thing she probably will never experience on a backside send on course 🙂 So, add motion especially when you are moving to the center of the bar, like you did at 1:14 – she was great with the motion added! Just be sure your feet are facing forward to the bar and not to the backside as you line her up 🙂
For the next session on this one, add motion and mix in some front side soft turn verbals too. And if she does well – you can then move to the next game, the Back Front Combos 🙂Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I love the wind chimes! And I am glad the weather is improving so you can do some games outdoors 🙂
She did well with this game – she will enjoy it even more when you can be running 🙂 And she was fine with the can falling over LOL! Some ideas for you:
>>I use a bunch of other marker words but when I’m not on my game then yes is the default to come out of my mouth.
I feel this too 🙂 All of my marker words with 9 year old Voodoo seem to be “YAY!” Every.single.one. Ha! No wonder he was so frustrated with me when he was young. Oops! So before each rep with the young dogs, I do a quick inventory of when to reward, where to reward, and the marker – when I mentally run through it each rep, my mechanics are MUCH cleaner and the session goes a lot better 🙂 And now I am pretty good with the young dog markers (and somehow still say “YAY” for Voodoo all the time haha) an =d this will help you get your zoom marker out too!
On the video:
Her commitment is looking really good in general! This is great! We can look at a couple of things involving mechanics to get her looking ahead even more and also, not biting you 🙂When you throw the toy to reward the line, throw sooner. She has a magical ability to find the jump AND look at you the whole time. Normally, I would suggest that you throw as soon as you see her look forward at the jump – but she really never looked forward LOL! So, we will just associate the placement of the reinforcement with the cue, to elicit looking forward: as soon as she exits the barrel wrap, as you move forward, throw the toy with the marker. it will be REALLY early – but she will begin to look ahead and not at you. And when she is looking ahead, we can change and delay the timing of the throw but for now – just throw really early, it doesn’t matter if she is looking at you or not. You were throwing when she got over the jump bump, which was causing her to look at you. For now, throw so early it is almost a lure 🙂 But if it helps get her looking forward, then it is a win!!
She does seem more stimulated here and that led to some bite-the-momma and a jump up at your face moment too. I don’t want her to rehearse that, I don’t want to ignore it, and I don’t want to get mad at her or punish her… so different mechanics will solve the problem with reinforcement, so we don’t have to ever see it again LOL!!
Use reset cookies to line her up for each start – and be really fast with them. When she wasn’t quite ready for the wrap cue on the 2nd rep, and you stepped back too quickly – she jumped up at you. So before the rep, use a line up cookie and take a moment to make sure everything is ready before sending. And if something goes wrong (because sometimes that happens :)) use and immediate reset cookie to get her to your side. I prefer early & often reset cookies over the leaping up or biting (I am sure your flesh prefers that too haha!)
The other bitey moments were after the toy retrieve – her retrieves were really good, as you mentioned! SUPER!! So before she can even think about trading for your flesh, whip out a line up cookie or a second toy, or something that keeps her mouth engaged in a happy reinforcing thing as you get the original toy back, while saving your flesh so she doesn’t rehearse biting. And you can do this without her jumping up on you, because that is definitely where you were seeing the most tooth hug action 🙂
>>3) Hold hands lower when asking for tug – up seems to mean jump on me (and apparently bite me).
Yes, I agree with the lower hands idea – one hand can be holding the original toy and the other hand can be trading for the cookie or next toy, and the 3rd hand can be… oh wait, only 2 hands hahaha
>>4) When she spits toy to bite me don’t pick it up – make her pick it up and bring it to me.
Try not to even get into this position – use clean, fast mechanics to get the retrieve toy back and get her lined up before she spits it and before she bites. And if she spits it, use your reset cookie or 2nd toy. I think if you make her pick it up and retrieve it, that can be frustrating to her and frustration leads to more tooth hugs.
The other option is to have a reset area like a dog bed or cato board or klimb, so she can get the toy, meet you there, hop on her spot, get the next reward, then proceed into a smooth clean line up for the next rep – no tooth hugs anywhere! The more she learns how to earn reinforcement when she is stimulated, the less she will want to bite you 🙂
I worked all of these with Contraband because working whippets and lurchers can be VERY bitey, and after Voodoo’s tooth hugs when he was young, I knew that I wanted high drive, lots of speed, and ZERO tooth hugs 🙂
Let me know what you think! She is looking great!
TracyGood morning!
>>So Lanna and I went to a UKI trial this weekend.
UKI is great for both having really reinforcing runs, and showing us all the things we haven’t trained yet LOL!
>> It is clear her go and lateral send from 20-30 feet behind nonexistent (it is also clear that her arousal level exceeds her ability to actually take the jump but that is a separate issue ;)). >>
>>So obviously she needs substantially more long line distance go work (speed circles, forward send lines, and lateral distance curves), but the question is do I start short and work up on variations of exercise 1 and 2 or put the tug out as a lure and work big distances (the way I trained Pip) or some version of all of the above.>>A bit of all of the above, fading the lure into a thrown reinforcement as early as possible – thrown at the moment she looks ahead. Exercises 1 and 2 here are turn exercises, so the big wide open course running skills come for the big distance stuff (like the little course game in the last week).
You can try to add some tunnels to the bigger distances, getting her nutty by doing a tunnel a bunch of times in a row, then an increasingly bigger and bigger distance so she is finding lines in higher arousal.
I also HIGHLY recommend a helper in UKI – someone to throw the reward when she looks at the line, so she gets reinforcement in that environment (internal and external environment) for driving the big lines. Helpers and thrown reinforcement are both legal in UKI NFC runs. I often bring 2 or 3 balls in – throw one, bring the dog right back for the other.
>>On the flip side it didn’t exceed her ability to hit and hang on to every set of weaves all weekend.
That is great!!!
>>I realize this is philosophical vs strictly about verbals, but given limited training time and wear on body I want to be strategic about how to get where I want to go.
I think it is mainly an experience issue. Is she able to run the bigger lines in her normal training setting? If yes – great! If not – that is the starting point, with placement of reinforcement matching with the cue produces. I use a lot of toys that are easy to throw, so I can wing them out on the line as soon as the dog look forward (and I am using the verbals and handling too). A lot of folks are anti-thrown-reinforcement but that is only because they are late late late LOL!!!! The thrown reinforcement is an issue only if you wait for the dog to get to the jump then throw – the dog either loses confidence at the last minute, or looks back at you over the jump. I like to throw early, marking that first moment of getting on the line.
The lure can help produce the behavior but needs to be faded quickly – happily, both the lure and the thrown reinforcement can be used in UKI (and some USDAA) NFC runs.
You can go back to long distance toy races and long distance driving ahead to one jump (or lateral sends) – with all of the turn work, the reinforcement value might have gotten lower and so it needs to be pumped up a bit. Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>How long will you be monitoring this forum? I had to fly out to California for a family emergency last Tuesday and may not be back until the 25th of March.
We will be here in the Forum until April 1st. I hope all is well with the family!
>>I had a lesson last Monday with Claudia. Skye was running over the jumps! He was still methodical on the contacts and the weaves but the jumps…. I led out two jumps to do a cross, and I felt like a freight train was coming at me at full speed!!!>>
This is a GREAT update! YAY!!!!
>>I need to continue to work through everything here, but something has clicked with him this time in this class that hasn’t clicked before. I did all the Max Pup things etc, but something has changed… Maturity? Tossing the ball? Three Susan Salo seminars? Your workshop in December? But, it’s really only started since we started this class after the first week, when you had me throw his toy a mile after completing the jump.>>
I think it is the high value thrown reinforcement (plus you run run run running :)) Balls and frizzers for the win! The next step is to train the contacts and weaves with the balls and frizzers and more running to see if that helps him be less methodical 🙂
T
Hi!
I firmly believe in separate cues. The backside slice and the backside wrap are behaviors that are as different as sit and down – so require different cues. That way she can hear the cue much sooner and make the right choice! Picture this: she is exiting at tunnel 18 feet from a backside. At the tunnel exit, you can tell her if it is a slice or wrap so she has plenty of time to set it up in terms of jumping and collection.
If you only have 1 verbal – she won’t know til much later if it s a slice or wrap. This can lead to bar knocking or guessing where she defaults to one or the other (usually the dogs pick the slice). You all need to rely on the handling which can work sometimes… but won’t work when you can’t get there.
Some folks use the backside verbal plus a wrap cue, but many dogs find that late info because they don’t hear/process the wrap cue til they have arrived at the backside.So… I think you will be happier if you have 2 separate verbals (and so will she :))
Let me know what you think! How did UKI go this weekend?
TracyHi!
I like how you set up this space – the jump for the out and the tunnel behind you. It is challenging but also this is what we are seeing on course lately: running through boxes and past things without the correct obstacle being visible.
He did really well on the out, especially when ou cued it as soon as he exited the wing wrap. The go-straight was indeed harder, maybe because there was no visual obstacle ahead and therefore he didn’t think it could be simply straight? So you can add a wing or jump straight ahead, so there is more value for the stay straight moments… which also adds challenge for the out cue 🙂Nice work!! Have fun!
TracyGreat! And thank you for coming to the connection seminar today, it is always fun to see you there!
T
Hi!
You and Fritzi looked great here!Baby level – really nice connection with your baby dog! That is why she had so much fun AND was so successful – connection! The only spot I think she ended a little more connect was on the left turn ‘racetracks’ from wing to wing at 1:15, where you looked ahead a bit and so she looked at you. If you keep your eyes back to her, she will find that line without looking up at you.
The leaf chasing moment was so funny, she came back with so much speed – she is just a joy to watch 🙂
Mini course:
You had really good connection here too (except for one spot LOL!) At the beginning, when she went wing-to-wing from :04-:06, you had better connection than in the baby level reps so she really didn’t need to look at you there. Nice! And she found her lines easily thanks to the good connection on the rest of it too, except…>>Has a funny Oops at the end
That was HYSTERICAL!!! Baby dogs are the BEST! Nailed it with lovely jumping form LOL!!!!
Keep your arm back more for connection – she was coming to the correct side but then you pointed forward while she was still behind you, so she read it as a blind cross to your right side… and then the tunnel hurdle was the only option LOL!
Compare that to :32, where you kept your left arm low and back until after she passed you and she had no trouble finding the correct tunnel entry 🙂Awesome job using all of your verbals too – the earlier we start, the better we remember to use them 😂 and the better the dogs learn them 🙂
Great job on both of these – it was SO FUN to see her nail these!
Tracy
Hi! Hope you had fun at the herding seminar!
This is DEFINITELY less bouncy. She seemed to think it was GREAT lol!!! It took her a couple of reps to get organized – the game was more exciting so she lost some of the precision and organization. She was getting it back at the end, so we will definitely use this but make sure we take our time to keep the thoughtful organization. You can lead out a little more and move the toy very very slowly 🙂 Maybe in the bigger space try it with a bar on the 2nd jump and let me know how it goes?Great job!
TracyHello and glad to see you back, it is so fun to watch you two!
This game is going really well – he keeps getting faster and faster 🙂 I am really happy with his commitment!!!
>> had a couple times where I lost connection and he went in the wrong end of the tunnel. I think he’s going to make sure I improve on this. LOL. >>
Yes, connection is key to this game 🙂 Your connection in general was really strong! Just a couple of little disconnects with the tunnel: The first rep where he ended up in the other side of the tunnel was because you pointed forward and that broke connection and turned your shoulders to where he went. Keeping your arm back and looking at his eyes got on the correct tunnel entry beautifully (like at :25)
At 1:26, your dog-side arm WAS back (yay!) but I think he just needed you t move more directly to the tunnel entry – your line of motion turned to the other side of the tunnel so he thought you wanted that one. You moved more directly to it at 1:35 and he was great about finding the one you wanted.>>I have a couple questions. I am wondering if I was using the verbals right? I wonder if I should have been saying right or left on some of the start wings, instead of my wrap cues? I
Any time that he comes around the wing to go back to the tunnel or you do a turn and burn exit, you can use the wrap cues (which you did here) When you are doing more of a racetrack moment from wing to wing, you can use your left/right cue.
>>There was also a part of the session where he just kept either anticipating the tunnel or the wrap. Do you want me to handle that differently?
The good news is that he loves loves loves these games. So that is why he was trying to anticipate and start without you LOL!!! I suggest fast reset cookies to line up at your side: after the toy reward (or after an error), call him back for a line up cookie at your side. That way he can build as much value for lining up to start, as he has for running the sequences 🙂 the value of the line up cookie will depend on the value of the toy – if he can handle a high value cookie also playing with the toy, you can use a high value cookie. If he will stop playing with the toy, you can try lower value treats so you can maintain the toy value.
When you are feeling comfy with the connections here, you can spread this out so there is even more running 🙂 Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Nice work on the tunnel-wrap proofing game. It is a hard game for sure!
The look on your face when he went into the tunnel was so funny LOL!! You were like, “DUDE!”Keeping the wing further from the tunnel was great – the tunnel value has come up recently so he had trouble when the wing was too close and turning to the left.
He did not appear to have the same trouble turning to his right, he was perfect – maybe the wing was further from the start on the right turn reps? Or maybe turning left is harder. Either way, it is also perfectly fine to have a bit of handling involved – you can say the verbal and then handle. For example, holding his collar, start the wrap verbal, let him go, then do a front cross. He will find that helpful and it will help solidify the verbals, but cause the verbal cue will predict the FC and reinforcement placement. We don’t always do FCs with wraps, but the concept will work for this and then we can fade out the FCs. He definitely seemed to like the handling, and he was GREAT for both of you when you did the tunnel-tunnel-wing game (which had a little handling in the form of decel but not a lot).His commitment on the smiley face games looked great! I think the first two reps were warm ups to get the verbals going but them BOOM! The bigger sequence with the wraps and lefts/rights was fabulous! His commitment looked great, your verbals were spot on. When Mike took the wheel, he needed the one rep to warmup the verbals and then the next rep was great too! You can do walk throughs at high speed with the verbals… and without him 🙂 There are a lot of words in this game LOL!
My only suggestion is to make more connection to him on the tunnel exits – try not to be looking forward. When you two look at him at the tunnel exits, he immediately finds the line. When you don’t look at him, he looks up a little at you or comes off the line. The very last rep is a good example: At 2:44, perfect connection on the tunnel exit so he went directly to the wing. At 2:47, you were looking forward, so he came off the line.
Next steps for the smiley face? Spread it out 🙂 Go to 20, 25 or 30 feet between the wings and tunnel so he really feels the wind in his hair 🙂
Great job here!!! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
