Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi!
>>In classes, I have been working on keeping her connected between runs, re-sets, instructor talk, etc. I’ve been using a treat that she needs to keep nibbling on. It would be lovely to also be able to use a tug toy but she doesn’t tend to tug in class. The flirt stick works for a little while. The food works almost all the time. >>
Great!!! I like the food better in this situation because it is just easier to let her nibble while you listen, then get her ramped up for the next turn. Toys are harder to use while listening, then the dogs tire out faster because tugging is quite the exertion!
>>I do believe she would be less sensitive to many of these if the pandemic hadn’t hit us when it did. We’re working on it!
Truth. I totally agree. These youngsters will take a little longer to get into the ring but they are going to still be amazing!
Your distraction list is really clear and extensive! Yay! So to begin planning the training, let’s sort it into 2 smaller lists:
– happy distractions (the Daddy, delicious smells, squirrel!, etc)
– worry distractions (sudden noises, sudden weird things, running towards people – unless that is a happy distraction and she wants to visitAnd begin with the easiest happy distractions, to help teach the framework of how to ignore them (that is why the demo video had a bag of closed pretzel chips on the floor and a dog that doesn’t really like food LOL!) and then we gradually apply that to harder and harder *happy* distractions.
When she is nailing it with the happy distractions, we can slide in the worry distractions, at a big distance. She will be far more successful because she will recognize the pattern and the reinforcement procedure 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> But it didn’t make sense to me. I would have expected he to look at me more on the left side (heeling side). Is it my throw since I have more trouble throwing left handed? I will try the quicker releases also.It is possible that she is more used to working on your left side, because that is where the obedience value is so you are both more comfy on that side and less comfy on the other side 🙂
Good morning!
>>I do find that she has more focus/value on chasing me than the placed reward. This even comes about with the treat n train also.
This is pretty normal with most dogs, especially breeds that are bred to respond to motion.
>> Hoping to get a little more focus on the reward sometimes.
With this in mind, it becomes an important element of the reinforcement procedure and we can build it up. It starts with two simple words:
Slow down.
LOL! In order to increase the value of the placed reinforcement, you need to decrease the distraction of your running. Running is a higher value reinforcement and also a high value distraction so to raise the rate of success with getting the placed reinforcement, you will need to dial back your motion to something like a steady walk for now, in situations where you are using placed reinforcement. That will help placed reinforcement come up in value and also, you can build it up even more by installing it into a bigger procedure and pair it with something more reinforcing: your motion! Or a throw toy.
So for example on the circle wraps: walk slowly til she gets the placed reward after you cue it. And then you can take off and run and also reward that with another reinforcement for chasing you.And an example of the MM – I create MM chains with my dogs. When I am moving slowly, they go to the MM on cue and eat the cookie… and then I reward that with running and frisbee throwing. That has really built up the MM love to the point where they will still drive to it even if I am running.
So with that in mind, on the video:
On the circle wraps, the first few looked good. I agree that I don’t think she loved having her collar held but also, on the reps where she did NOT get the placed reward, there was a lot of motion from you! She was more successful when you either stood still or stopped moving after she missed it. This is a good one for you to be moving slowly the whole time (walking) and then when she gets it… take off and run 🙂On the sequences – I think it was generally easy for her to ignore the placed toy because of your motion and then when you were near it and cuing it, it was easy to grab (which might mean she is reading your proximity as part of the cue to get it?) She had one error, but I think it was a good error (or, not really an error) at 1:32 – the toy was right on her line where a tunnel reward would be, so expecting her to run over it after a tunnel was a little too much and she was fine to take it there. The placed reinforcement should not be a proofing game even though there is a self-control element to it, so be sure the placed reward is building a specific behavior on the sequence.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think about the ideas for building up the value of the placed reinforcement.
TracyGood morning!
These are really good distractions on your list! One thing I notice is that they are all super high level, difficult distractions. Because they are such challenging distractions, we can’t start with them for two reasons:
– they are likely to put the dogs over threshold very quickly, reducing the chance for success while trying to teach the reinforcement procedures
– you don’t have regular access to them, to teach the dogs the initial stages of ignoring distractionsSo, what easy, low level distractions do you have readily available at home? In the demo videos, one of the first things I did was just move the dog to a new location, the other side of the garage. It was hard for her! And the other early distraction was a closed bag of pretzel chips on the floor. The demo outside the flyball ring was much later – the dog would have been unsuccessful if I had started there, in terms of teaching the framework.
So teach the games with easier distractions and you’ll see that the harder distractions get much easier because the pups recognize the games from the context of the easier distractions. This is especially important with the distractions that cause fear or reactivity (another form of fear/anxiety) because those responses are more challenging to work through. So start with easy, happy distractions and work up through harder ones, before adding worry-related distractions.
>>I think they have both figured out that I want them to chase the flirt pole and they are on strike. I will keep trying but they aren’t biting! Under the right conditions inside they are both chasing a rope tug that is about 2 feet long. That’s progress, I think.>>
Yes! Progress! Keep finding no-pressure ways to see if they will chase toys or engage with them.
>>You used the cue “toy toy” to turn back for the reward. Then when you were on the field and you released forward and the dog did some obstacles you sent him back to the toy using a cue “Get it”.
The toy toy procedure is very specific to the dog being in a stay position (or stopped contact) and releasing from that stay to get a reinforcement that is behind them (they have to leave the position and turn away from me)
“get it” specifically means to run forward to a toy – so when the dogs were asked to ‘get it’, they were already in motion and could run forward to the reinforcement on the ground.So the subtle difference is in the context – if I send the moving dog forward to a thing on the ground (or thrown), it is a get it. If the dog is in a control position and they can release to get the reinforcement behind them, it is a toy toy 🙂
>>I have been using the same cue “get it” to turn back and also to go get the reward after a few obstacles. But I have also used “cookies” to cue for the reward I left at the start which would be the same as the reinforcement behind. I am confused about whether we need to use different verbal cues or can we use one and I am thinking that whatever it is, I should try to be consistent.>>>>
If ‘cookies’ is your end-of-run, let’s-go-to-the-reward-outside-the-ring marker where you move with the dogs to go to it – where is the get it reward located? “Cookies” as remote reinforcement is very specific to outside-the-ring while ‘get it’ might be reward tossed out on a line, or placed to help build a skill… but it might be unclear is get it is used for both, and also used for the reward left right behind the dog at the start line. I like different markers for those 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I don’t have obedience experience to bring to this but yes – in order to compete at their best, the dogs need to understand remote reinforcement in agility both for the complete run and the individual obstacles. It is a complex sport! So it obedience, but I think obedience folks work more remote reinforcement in, sooner, than agility folks do.Hi!
>>The helper as a “target” is something she quickly cues off of.
Yes – dogs are brilliant at figuring out the when/where/why of reinforcement LOL!
Good morning!
>>I’m really surprised with how fast he’s picking it up. Actually he picks up most things quickly
Clarity is LIFE! He seemed like a super happy camper here. I have some stuff coming next week that also involves the leash, so you can build in a bit of trial routine too!
I think he liked the wing wraps really well – that part was very clear in terms of what you wanted him to do.
The shadow handling was a little less clear for him – he was moving with you, it was short and sweet but I think he didn’t know what he was supposed to do other than bop back and forth LOL! So, stick with obvious stuff for now so he knows what you want him to do 🙂
>> I should probably be training my RDW…
Train that in the percentage of time that you will need it any time soon…. so put it away for now other than bits here and there because the engagement stuff is higher priority.
>> Let me know what mechanics I need to improve because I still feel like word placement can be better
I think it was fine! There is going be a bit of messy feeling to the remote reinforcement in agility because there is so much movement from both of you. I think you should keep going with this , pingponging amount of behavior before going back. And take it to Carrie’s where you ask for a LITTLE bit of this (and work on the go for a swim as a remote reinforcement activity :))
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
He was great with the toy toy game! And Changtse is a very lucky pup, that is a GREAT toy!
I am impressed with how well he did the ‘toy toy’ especially the 2nd time you cued it, after he had gotten cookies and the toy in your hand. This procedure can help build his excitement on start lines too! For planning purposes… do you think he will play with these toys in the ring at a trial? I know that we still want to build even more excitement into his start lines. And while I am thinking of it – I think the toy toy procedure will be useful as a remote reinforcement application for weave training: weave away from the toy, in order to get the toy.Only little mechanics suggestions here; the sessions overall looked great – it was high energy and fun fun fun!
-for the ‘out’ of the toy, say give before moving the cookie hand. Otherwise the moving cookie becomes the cue (I have made that mistake – Hot Sauce’s cue to out the toy is my hand moving to my pocket. OOPS!)
– same idea with the OK release and toy in your hand, especially when the other toy is behind him: say it then move the toy, rather than simultaneously, to help keep the OK release super strong.He was a tugging wild man here, even after the cookies! I love that! Great job 🙂 Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
I love using the value of fun activities to raise value of other things too! It is almost backwards training – using the sequencing to train the reinforcement LOL! This looks strong and she seemed to really be enjoying it too!
I loved her tugging on the frisbee! You can then continue to transfer the value by throwing it right away or putting her back into the sequence. If you do throw it, be sure to use a consistent marker for that – you were consistent with the tug markers but the throw markers were varying a bit.
At the very end: The “Take it” to tug before running the sequence was harder for her, she did think you had lost your mind for a moment LOL! So if you start with a take it – do a quick take it then go right into the sequence the sequence then the throw, just to build up the take it as part of the order of festivities.
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
I think this is going well and she is beginning to give you great play with the frisbee!!!
A couple of ideas for you:
Using a smaller space is more likely to get her to bring it back, and she did pretty well here. You were able to reward approximations where she brought it pretty close to you. And, adding movement will help – give yourself enough room so that you can move away from her when you are asking for her to bring it back, as that will get her chasing/recalling to you, which is more enticing than you standing still and facing her.Having her retrieve in training sessions with the sequencing like you did below will help too – she seems to want to run the sequence (hooray!) so the faster she brings it back, the faster she can get back into the running 🙂
Using the treat when she brings it almost all the way back is good – you can use one of your treat procedures to get her to bring it closer: for example, having her come all the way to you to get the treat is going to make it more efficient for her to bring the toy closer and closer to you (rather than stop 10 feet away). So, when she is close-ish to you and before she decides to drop the toy, cue your ‘out’ and when she drops it (doesn’t matter where she drops it as long as it is after the out cue) – present the cookie from your hand as close to your leg as possible (snacks!).
You can then shape things over time so that she brings it closer and closer to you. The mechanics are the tricky part to make this happen – you can be moving away but don’t move the cookie hand til after you say the out cue, or she will be watching the magic cookie hand the whole time LOL!>>When I added the leash to the disc, we did a bit better, but since it was a leash, when the metal part reached my hand, it hurt to keep holding on>>
The leash on the toy helped make it more of a tug toy, which is also really valuable – but yes, that HURTS especially when your hands might be cold. I have a bunch of long, soft tug toys that I attach to the frisbees with strong knots 🙂 Much easier on the hands! And when I am tugging on the leash, it is also a really soft leash and I duct tape over the metal so it doesn’t hurt and so the dogs don’t accidentally bite the metal.
A lot of folks have been asking about leash work as part of this, so I have been videotaping that this week – more specifics coming on Monday!
Tracy
Good morning! Lots of good work here on these videos!
Th wing wraps and back-and-forth on a jump are really good for getting things going here! She is going to offer the behavior easily, which makes things easy for you!
The big question:
In these sessions, you were using yes, good girl, yay when she was correct on the wing and the jump… but I couldn’t hear any other markers about where placement of reward would. It is possible they were really quiet – so if you did have markers going, making them more salient (louder LOL!) than the praise 🙂 And if you did not have the markers going (like get it on the tosses, for example), add them in on this stage, with the easy behavior.I personally had to retrain myself to use the markers (which provide great info for the dog) and stop saying “yes!” for everything, because that was causing my dogs to look at me in situations where I did not want them looking at me. So use these easier sessions to get the markers to be really clear for you and her.
Onwards to the next installations!
TracyHi!
>>Tugging on the leash is only a problem in a trial setting, everywhere else no problem
He might need to see the leash as the reward at the end, by specifcially using it in training. Stay tuned for videos to outline that specifically. And you might need to shop for a brand-new tug leash, so we can start this as a blank slate.
>>Like I said, the mat and a T ball are the only things he will reliably play with outside the ring. But if I bring a toy into the ring for an NFC training run, then all is good, he will play. Have not figured this one out yet.>>
It probably has to do with the pre-run nervous energy that we all feel – and then when he realizes the run is a training run, he can relax and play. That is my best guess 🙂
>>Going to try “inserting the leash into the mat play. I’ll start with the mat and a bit of play and then add the leash on the mat. Have a CPE trial this weekend where I’ll play with this.
If you have time, work this at home first: basically showing him what this looks like, how the leash will be the toy and associated with the mat, etc. Then it will be more recognizable to him in a trial setting, where distractions are much higher.
>>I also use ball play at the end of sequences, but I’ll have him sit, I throw the ball and then release him after the ball stops moving. Is this actually rewarding the sequence or is this just some fun play?>>
You raise a good point here – I am not sure that toy play at the end of a course or sequence rewards anything specific about the sequence in most cases. I think it rewards general engagement and running the course with you, and also makes being in the ring super fun. Now, don’t get me wrong – that is really important! Engagement and having the ring as a good place to be will help everything else!
>>This video is how I primarily use ball reward
– catch while in position
– get it after the ball stops moving
– get it to a placed ball
– catch at a weave exit, tunnel exitHe did really well here on the video! These are good uses of the ball reward. I do have a question, though, and it might just be because I can’t hear exactly what you are saying:
When you were working the A-frame – I think you were saying catch there after the praise on the first 2 reps, then tossing the ball back to him. That it is a really good application of the catch reinforcement. On rep 3 at :30 , I think you said ‘catch’ as he was coming down the frame and then tossed the ball forward, kind of a proofing moment – then praised & released with the get it. So my question is… what does catch mean, exactly? It can be different for each of us, as long as it is clearly defined. For my, ‘catch’ means: good job, reinforcement is available now and it is being tossed back to where you are. So there is an element of release to it but also the dogs are aware that the reward will be coming to them. On rep 3, the catch would mean something else than it did on reps 1 and 2, so we want to be super consistent.
Now feel free to completely ignore this if you were not saying catch LOL!!! It was hard to hear 🙂
The use of the ball at the end of the poles was good too, and it will be even better when you work up to driving way ahead – picture yourself being 10 or 20 feet ahead while he is still weaving, then you can reward the poles by using the catch procedure and tossing back to the 12 pole.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I am glad that Tori was such a good girl in class!!! Yay! I am not surprised though, she really is doing so well!!This was a fun session to watch – I *think* your catch cue implies retrieve, as in ‘whenever I throw a toy, you retrieve it to me’, yes? And yes, he totally forgot and was really enjoying that toy (flinging it around was ADORABLE).
>>I liked at the end where if I followed him in so I had room to move away from him I got closer to what I wanted.
100% yes, that really helped! He needed that little bit of help because the context alone was not getting the behavior, and a subtle movement cue was totally helpful for him. I totally chuckled at just before 2:00 when he looked at you and a lightbulb appeared over his head and he brought the toy to you. Priceless!!!!
The other thing you can do is warm up the concept with a few reps with a toy that has a long history of him bringing it right back to you, then switch to a toy that might be more entertaining to play with alone like this one was. Maybe warm up with a more boring toy LOL!!! And yes, feel free to help – my mantra is to help as much as needed, but as little as possible 🙂 So moving in to give yourself room to move away a little was great.
Nice job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Remote start in my pocket….shut the video off at a critical part!😢
Ugh I hate when that happens! But you still got a lot of good stuff here on the video 🙂
>>I notice that I’m looking at her when I run. But I should also be focused forward at toy, right? >>
Actually, you are fine to look at her a little as you are running – that simulates the connection you will need when running courses (I am sure you have been told to connect, connect, connect LOL!!!!!)
It was interesting to see both videos here – she is doing SUPER well but I think she is stronger on your left side than on your right side.
Looking at the first video – all of the left side reps look good with the distance! You are both hustling! Wheee!
The right side reps are harder for her – she was distracted by the toy in your pocket on the 2nd rep and had questions on the last 2 reps which were both right side (she was looking at you more than she was looking at the toy.On the 2nd video, you started off with a shorter distance first and she was great as a warm up – longer distance on the next one which also really helped her.
Those were on your left – the right side rep (rep 3) had a bigger distance and she didn’t drive as well so it is either a right side weakness or the distance is too big then you won on the right side – better on the last rep!
So – keep going with the bigger distances when she is on your left. Try to do short distances on the right side reps with fast releases as soon as she looks the toy, to build the right side up to be as strong as the left side. It will balance out pretty quickly.Great job here!!
TracyHi!
She is picking this up really nicely – backing up to the target is easy for her.Note how she is looking really high at you. That is because the food is in your mouth. Because everything between the click and the food delivery gets reinforced and built into the behavior, you are getting the high head position because she sees you reaching for the food up high then handing it to you (it causes her to lift her head and look at your face, which then gets built into the behavior). We ideally want her head down below her topline for this game, so a little adjustment: have the food in your hand, 4 or 5 cookies so you don’t have to reach up for it. And, either bend over or sit on a chair so you don’t have to bend over and hold your hand nice and low, ready to deliver the food but don’t move it til after the click- that way your food delivery is super quick and low, so she doesn’t look up at you.
I think the looking up at you is causing her to not be straight – the gates as a channel certainly help! The lower food position will definitely help too. You can use the gates but they will need to be faded, so maybe use them for one more session while you get the rewards nice and low, then fade them out 🙂
Nice work!
Tracy
