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Hi Tracy
Haven’t had much chance to do videoing. Need the yard for some of the games so some of them I will have to wait until after the course since still way too much snow. Plus started a part time job and still figuring out fitting things in with that given Beka’s and Rayven’s stuff.
Zig Zag For Slicing:
Did this during the live session – haven’t had a chance to get back and try it again.
Left/Right Verbal Proofing:
Remembered I had a third jump bump so switched to those from the pool noodles. This was our second time doing this game. First time (during the live session) I had to help her with my dog side hand to get the turn away, this time I didn’t need to do that. Seeing this video my positioning wasn’t great on the right verbal but overall she did well.
Send And Serp:
Here is our third session of the Send and Serp – she still has trouble figuring out the wrap and then taking the jump so I still warmup with just the serp before adding in the wrap.
Thanks
Lori
Hi Tracy
<<She looks around when you lead out, so mix in more “catches” randomly, throwing the reward back at difference points – it will make things exciting and shape her to watch you – the reward could come at any time, so she won’t take her eyes off of you 🙂 I am not worried about her looking around, and I don’t think she is stressed – I just think she doesn’t believe anything will be happening for a while so loses focus for a bit.>>
LOL! She gets a tossed reward almost every rep, so toss-rep-toss-rep and so on most of the time, I just cut them out of the video to shorten it up. She regularly looks on the floor for treats regardless of what we are doing.
<<I totally agree – the more I watch dogs do jump work with a TnT or dead toy, the more I think it drains the dogs of all power because it is more about slowing down than powering through. The dead toy is better than the TnT for her, and the moving toy is best!>>
Funny, she is the first dog I have had that is like this, for everyone else this food is everything. Rayven drools over her kibble and even though she is pretty sound sensitive the TnT is amazing to her.
<<Since the set point is going so well, this is something to re-visit maybe once a week? >>
Agree, I figured maybe once a week for a while. The other thing I liked here was minimal vulturing on her part. She doesn’t have the best sit all the time yet but we are working on that.
<<Now, going back to the the lazy game, add in 2 elements:
– Start very very close to the wing so as you walk forward, so drives ahead of you. You might have to hang out at the wing to let her finish wrapping it before you start walking forward.
– And do the opposite as well – start as far from the start wing as possible so you can send her way away to it, and you are past the jump when she exits it, so she has to find the jump from behind you (and not just chase you past it).>>Ahh, ok, I was pretty close to the wrap wing but give her a really good chance to drive away to the jump, and I missed that we were to do it from far away also. I redid a bit ago and here is what we got.
Week 1 – Wind in Hair – Baby Lazy Redo
DOR went fine overall, I will need to get into the motion part to get any distance past the jump before she gets there. DOL was more interesting, she struggled when we added distance to the wrap wing, so I shortened up. While doing it I was wondering if the toy in the hand I was holding her with was an issue. Watching it after I noticed that I wasn’t stepping forward with my right foot, it was already forward, so thinking that might have been a bit of an issue from farther back for her.
<<You can throw sooner or even leave the toy placed out there – I suggest placing it NOT because she needs the help finding the jump, but because as the distance gets bigger, it is harder and harder to throw on time and keep her head from coming up.>>
Doesn’t help that the toy has a lot of built in drag, but I wanted to use something with a handle to make sure I could grab something if needed. Probably trying the milker next time. Definitely curious as to how she handles the toy placed on the ground. That was so hard for Rayven.
BTW, I was just going to work on the first game from the zoom call thinking it was the ‘smiley face games’ game that is posted for Week 1 and when I looked at the video it isn’t for the game that you did on the call. I got onto the zoom call after the video was played on the call and in rewatching that part I see the video was about proofing wrap verbals.
Am I missing something or is the proofing wrap verbals game missing from Week 1?
I tried it out based on the Zoom recording. Beka started out fine but as soon as we did the tunnel by going around the wing she lost it (LOL!). Moved the wing a ways out, still had some trouble so I dropped the tug early and she started to get it after that. Moved the wing a bit closer and she was still ok wrapping, but when I tried it in the original spot again the tunnel was too tempting.
I’ll play with this with the wing about 5-6′ away for a while before trying it closer.
Only did the one direction as this session when longer than I wanted. Will swap sides tomorrow to see if that side works better for her but will still have the wing farther away to start.
Thanks
Lori
Hi Tracy
<<Moving target game also looked great! Nice stay!!! It was a nice big hollee roller… and she grabs the handle LOL! Is there something you can put in the HR that she might like, such as a tennis ball? I have a frisbee and some fur in mine. She was lower on the handle with it was really moving towards the end of the session, though, so it might ultimately not matter (and looks like she might have grabbed it on the last rep?) We just wan to be sure she is looking down and not up or sideways to grab the handle 🙂>>
Umm, border collie! I have yet to have one that isn’t more interested in the handle on long tugs over the end of it at least some of the time, and they usually like to work their way up to the handle regrabbing. LOL! Beka was really doing that on the set point work today and you’ll see it on the first video below. Even when I hold the toy so the hollee roller is at her mouth level she goes for the handle. I’ll try putting something in it but not really expecting that to make much of a difference.
<<Yes, some dogs did well organizing themselves but one thing that I saw with those was that it was too sterile… and they had a whole lot of trouble maintaining that organization when the handler and/or toy started to move – for those dogs, that is where I would see rushing or changes in form. So this will help them handle the added distractions by installing them pretty early on while maintaining good form.>>
Yes, that is where I could see moving the target helping them to work through dealing with some arousal from the motion of the toy and holding their form.
Pre-Work – Moving Target Advanced:
Here’s with the jump wings and a 4″ jump bump added. You’ll see where she is grabbing the toy on this one.
Week 1 – Set Point – Baby and Advanced
I did use the TnT getting started here just to see how tht worked, then switched to the toy. Funny thing – the first time I used the toy the TnT was still sitting in place – she TOTALLY ignored the toy and headed right for the TnT – LOL! Me thinks food/treats mean more to her than it appears – LOL!
With the TnT she isn’t driving – not surprising given what I see with the RC foundation work. The toy definitely ups the drive quite a bit and she holds things together. No patting before the jump bump, is bouncing the space, front legs spread but rear pretty much together. Not unexpected with the front leg given she is really just running through the space.
She is right around 19″ tall right now, and has been pretty stable for about a month. Spacing on the Advanced set up was about 3.5′. I liked the way that worked for her with the jump bumps but need to play a bit with where she sits. Of course, it won’t be enough when we get to the point of adding height when it makes sense.
Added in today’s (March 11) work as I didn’t see that you were out until after I posted this originally.
Week 1 – Wind in the Hair – Baby
I worked this over three sessions today – first was ‘lazy’, then ‘motion’ and finally ‘distance’. combined the lazy and motion into the same video as I had it in my head that distance was the Advanced.
Lazy and Motion – switches to motion at about 1:10.
Distance – started at the 8-10′ foot range and ended up at around 16′.
Will do the ‘real’ advanced tomorrow.
Thanks
Lori
Hi Tracy
Ha! No early spring this year! Last year today we would have been able to be outside, not happening, actually getting more snow right now.
I’d love to post a photo of my backyard but the forum doesn’t seem to allow for that in a post??
Pre-work – Verbals Review
Did this a couple of days ago. DOL she had a little trouble after I moved the wing out a bit more but figured it out. DOR she grazed the jump on one turn, I initially thought I either said tug it too early or moved too early but not so sure after watching it, she didn’t have issues with me moving early on a later one.
Pre-Work – Moving Target – Baby
I did a quick session of the Moving Target game after the live session tonight. Beka did great with holding her sit – I did reward the sit every other rep.
Gonna say that I have never had any of my BC’s that have done jump grid work have the issues you mention in the video. They all jumped beautifully on their set point work, focused on the target, head down, rounded back and powered through with their rear ends. That being said, I like this game for proofing the stay and cuirous about it’s use with contacts.
Thanks
Lori
HI Tracy
Good to know re the mat stuff. We aren’t in any rush for a lot of stuff, she just figured out that she can in fact put all four feet in a box that is shorter than her normal stance – LOL! She is getting better about shaping for food (if the value of the food is high enough).
Really happy with the backing up. I’ve switched to the way I taught Rayven (sitting on the ground) after Beka started to get the idea of the first few steps and tried adding the mat (with ridges on it) which gave her a target to hit. got her up to 10′ in like three sessions, she just needs to work on form and straightness some.
I have as much as 3+ feet of snow in parts of the backyard (thankfully the snow fence helped but that has been overtopped in some places). It usually clears up decently early (mid to late march) up by the back of the house, enough to do a jump grid at least, but this year has been stupid. Lots of people in Winnipeg are running out of space in their yards to put it. As of Feb 20 we’ve had the 3rd highest snow total to that date on record (156cm/61″).
Looking forward to the next class even if we might not be able to manage eveything until after the course finishes.
Lori
Hi Tracy
Not sure if you are still checking the forum but I am a bit stumped on something.
I moved doing the running contact foundation downstairs where we have more room to do it and she can run more but I can’t get her out of a trot in a way that isn’t adversely affecting her inteeraction with the mat (ie running across it).
The MM doesn’t seem to be enough to get her running at all and if I throw a toy (one that won’t roll) she is looking back at me too much and either misses the mat or, if she is running, she invariably looks back as she is hitting the mat when I would click – sigh.
I’ve tried changing my position and doing things like a treat toss back away from the mat then calling her back across it but that doesn’t seem to be really helping much either.
No recent video.
Any suggestions? Are we going to be working on this in the next course?
On the good news side of things – she is backing up almost 10′ to a mat. YAY!
thanks for a great course. Looking forward to the next one although I am going to have trouble with space I think so might not be able to do some things.
Lori
Hi Tracy
>>The other option is to reward with food then bring the toy out, so she doesn’t rehearse pushing the wings to get to the toy.<<
Will try this first I think as I haven’t retried the rocking horse with food yet but when I did the 360 with food and walking during the one online group session she did much better with not pushing the barrel out of the way.
>>Even when you didn’t drop the toy, she was pushing the barrel. So – on the left turn side, give her lots of room so she doesn’t feel any pressure from the environment and use food rewards. She is understanding the countermotion element, so we can really work on the ‘don’t touch the barrel’ element there too. I don’t think you did anything weird or different with the toy, so it was either a smaller space, a weaker side, or she was more stimulated so she pushed the barrel more – or all of the above LOL!<<
That side is actually the side with all the room on it and nothing on the floor to crowd her either, so it’s food for all barrel work for a bit and slow speed on my part. I do also think it is her weaker side as this seems to be the direction she is more likely to do the pushing.
Thanks
Lori
Hi Tracy
>>Do you meant at 2:35 (last rep)? I think that was more about the toy being offered to early in an exciting way: when she sees the toy come out early on as she gets to the barrel, she stops going around it and just goes to the toy (which might mean pushing the barrel). So try to mark quietly and hold the toy til she is past it, presenting it more calmly for now – it is definitely something to consider as she starts to learn jumping and using wings. You can also Toss the toy to the ‘landing’ spot to help her look forward and not drive through the barrel to you 🙂 and that will also help when you add more distance between you and the barrel.<<
Yes, that rep. Tried doing a little of this on the backside exits when she started doing the same thing, had some success but I was probably still off a bit. Forgot the suggestion to toss to the landing spot, will try that next time.
>>Yes, I agree – I am pretty sure you have a ton of snow on the ground, but do you have access to any of the indoor locations? The tunnel rocking horses are super fun but they are high speed and you will want to have plenty of room and great footing.<<
Yep, way too much snow but we need more given the drought we are basically in. Just the arena (you probably recall the footing there) to use but costs are up big time and have to find a time where things can be moved around as classes on now.
Week 12 – Simple Decel – DOR
Here is the other side of the decel work. She seems to come in straighter on this side to me. I need to toss the toy earlier on the lateral work as she started looking at me, a bit more on the second one.
Week 12 – Backside Exit Countermotion – Baby
She did pretty well in both directions but defintely more into pushing the barrel on the left turn. tried delaying the toy, holding the toy, setting her a bit closer. Didn’t want to get rid of my motion. A couple were better.
Week 12 – Backside Exit Countermotion – Advanced
I didn’t mean to pause quite as much as I did on the first rep and I also forgot to have my hand out from the beginning. Whenwe switched sides she was thinking about coming inside the barrel so I held position on that one to make sure she got it.
Had a question about the video for this game – at about 1:55 were Voodoo is doing the backside serp you have your offside arm up. Was wonderirng what that was for?
Thanks
Lori
Hi Tracy
>>She also got bored with it pretty fast (her striding on the left turns was not as good mainly because she was looking around, checking her phone, etc LOL) so you can tug between each rep, or start her from a gentle collar hold instead of sit or stand. That can add enough spicy-ness to it to keep her more engaged 🙂<<
Something was defintiely catching her attention in the hallway area. When I switched sides she headed over there.
>>I would now change her position slightly so she is maybe 1 foot or so over closer to the center of the bar: and show her the threadle and the serpentine in the same session. That way, she doesn’t try to Threadle.All.The.Things. haha! The verbal makes the difference, as well as your position when you release (on the entry wing for threadles, almost at the exit wing for serps). The MM stays in the same place the whole time 🙂<<
Will do.
Week 9 – Reverse Retrieve
Had to show you this one, I was impressed, even though she lost it a bit when i switched sides she did awesome. I made it a fair bit easier on the lst one.
Week 12 – Lateral Leadout
Thise was two sessions. my video set up was super bad for the DOR side of it and couldn’t see the barrel or Beka so I redid it later. First session she had some trouble getting around the barrel so I moved her closer. By the time we did the second session she was good from a larger distance.
She did push the barrel out of the way a far bit on one of them. Will have to watch as if she keeps doing that we switch to wings correct?
Week 12 – Simple Decel
First time using a tossed toy for the reward in the basement since she took off on me during one of the very early games so I wasn’t sure how this would go, especially since we don’t use the bottle tug toy much. The one catch she did cracked me up.
Only did the one side as it didn’t feel like there was really much decel happening on her side of things so I wanted you to see before I do the other side in case I should adjust anything.
Not sure about doing the rocking horse game with the tunnel in the basement given the speed that could mean she gets into combined with the turns around the wing/barrel. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Lori
Hi Tracy
>>And keep tossing in a few ‘catch’ rewards too<<
I do that almost every rep, I just mostly cut them out of the video now to keep them shorter.
>>As you do add more motion, keep your shoulders/upper body frozen in serp position until after she has arrived at the MM so you don’t relax your upper body after the click. We don’t want to build the habit of the upper body turning forward at all, as that will pull her off the next serp line when she is on jumps.<<
This is goinig to be something I need to keep working on, I thought I did better on the threadle work today while we were doing it but after watching the video I still need to do it better.
>>You can definitely play with adding the threadles in too, but when you add the threadles be sure to use your wings – at least a wing on the entry side if not on both sides.<<
I like this idea and this is how we did the threadles today. Definitely helpful. Will use with the serps too.
Week 10 – Left/Right using Pool Noodles
Picked up some ~4″ diam pool noodles and tried taping them to the carpet with painters tape and also angled the jumps as you suggested.
I realized while watching the video that I likely should have treated this as a jump grid by either not sitting her at all or sitting her in a better position to start as she wasn’t getting consistent striding at times, but when she did it was pretty lovely. Will keep that in mind for next time we do this.
Also, my reward placement seemed better on the left turns over the right turns, probably because I am very right-handed and I just automatically gravitate to using the hand for a reward which got me turning on some of those.
Week 11 – Threadles with Motion on Wings
I thought the threadles went really well. The verbal seemed to work really well and we haven’t done threadles for a while. Don’t think I held my upper body positon well enough on these, surprisingly hard not to relax on clicking that little button!
Thanks!
Lori
Hi Tracy
Well, I didn’t try the pool noodles today. Decided to try Serp with Motion instead and get some feedback before I try the Threadle version.
Week 11 – Serp with Motion.
I messed up on the first side, I should’ve done a stationary one as a review since we haven’t done this for a while. Other than that it went decently I think.
Thanks
Lori
HI Tracy
>>She was cracking me up – she is matching her stride pattern to your ri ri ri (or you were matching it to her footfalls) – either way, very rhythmic! And also can be very helpful on course because the rhythm and energy of your verbal can help her understand what the rhythm of her collection (or extension) should be.<<
OMG, I had to rewatch the video and yes, SOOO FUNNY, thinking I unconsciously matched to what she was doing – LOL!
>>do you have any stride regular/jump bump things/pool noodles to replace the towel bars? <<
>>and, in keeping with giving her something more salient to move over – you can change he angles of this a little so she doesn’t need to reach as much and fitting herself into the gap between each ‘bar’ is easier.<<
I have a couple of 6″ and 8″ jump bumps and even in the dead of winter it looks like I can get pool noodles locally. thinking the pool noodles might be a little safer than the jump bumps with the motion being on a curve given they will have a little give if she hits them rather than her sliding if she hits a jump bump? Will see what I can do to hold them in place. All the little sandbags I use on the jump wings when it is windy are frozen in the shed.
Agree with angling the 2 wings since she is trying to single at times with this set up. Having the angles on the jumps will be better as she won’t have to reach as far, reducing the risk of her hitting a bump/noodle.
>>Smoothing the mechanics will help her be super clean on the wing wraps: you can move at the designated time of your choosing (when she is halfway around, for example) and you don’t have to say ‘tug it’ til she has cleared the wing and is on the way to you. Your motion affirms her decision to move around the wing, and the ‘tug it’ marker reinforces the full behavior including the clean wrap.<<
Got it, separate my motion from the marker word, move first, marker once she rounds the wing, ideally cleanly.
>>Well, covering the barrels with a garbage bag is completely brilliant. I bow down to you! Love it!<<
I can’t claim that idea, it was Todd’s 🙂 It was just a bit too baggy over the barrels to be something I wanted to use long term but was awesome as a test.
>>attempted “tooth hugs” bites (not sure if you noticed those but they were clear on video)<<
Funny, I see those now, definitely missed those watching the video.
>>Now let’s geek out a little about this behavior:<<
OK, read everything you wrote and it all makes sense and seems to boil down to-
– rate of reinforcement for doing barrels is way too low on these compared to what she is used to so far, which, to date, is well above 90%+ 1 barrel means 1 reinforcement. So up that back up to every barrel for a few sessions and then slowly add in the odd 2 barrels, 3 barrels, etc (basically ping pong the # of barrels she gets reinforced for),
– treat/toy in hand ready to deliver the reinforcement,
– method of reinforcement being at my side/across my body to ensure connection with her on my part (could be same side if treats though or still cross body?),
– keep in motion towards the next barrel until she gets the reward so I don’t end up facing her,
– remember to use my marker to tell her to get the treat/toy so she knows when it is available to her cause eventually it won’t always be available.
– start back with a small set up that requires very little to no motion on my part.Will try this a bit tomorrow and see how it goes.
Thanks so MUCH!
Lori
Hi Tracy
Week 10 – Left/Right Advanced Redo
Redid a quick session of this with the wings set up as you suggested (I hope), lengthening out the words some and tryng to get rid of the motion and the treat placement hopefully better.
>>Walk through these and use food. She is going to ramp up her own speed which is fine, but then we don’t need to also ramp up your speed and have the excitement of the toy. When she is consistently NOT pummeling the barrels, you can go faster and still use food. Then the toy can come back in when she is strong with your motion too.
Do you have opaque barrels? Not being able to see them might help.<<
I did a test with treats and walking and she did much better. I also tried covering a barrel with a garbage bag and again much more respectful of the barrel, so I went out and bought a couple of white ones and did some doodling around still using food.
This is what I got for video. She is still much more respectful of the barrels. Not 100% sure what is going on with the lookng to cut in, might be connection in some, especially the RS’s where I need to turn back sonner/faster but in others I look like I am pretty connected so maybe looking for the treats in my hand (they are fairly high value).
And the big question – what to do about the vocalizations? Stop when she does it? Ziva ‘grumbled’ at times when I was late on turns but this is turning into more than that. It’s sort of cute and funny but….
Week 11 – Turn and Burn on a Wing
Think I might have left a little too quickly a few times once we got past the basic shaping part. Once she connected with the wing pretty significantly trying to get to me so the next one I waited longer on it.
Thanks
Lori
Hi Tracy
To me Stripe is not ‘issue free’ as it kept my CC information recorded on file without my persmission or knowledge.
I just got Jeremy to get it removed as I only save that information online in situations where a monthly payment is involved.
So I am hoping that when I pay for the next max pup course it doesn’t get saved or I will need to contact Jeremy again.
I would really like a way to pay for courses without having to have a paypal account or save my CC information. Many other websites have options.
Thanks
Lori
Hi Tracy
>>it was fine to have the barrel ni the middle but now you can switch to a wing in the middle (ideally, 3 wings for this)/ That will help her learn how to approach a wing on this type of turn and also to not touch the wing <<
Unfortunately I only have the two wings in the basement and it’s not feasible to get to my other jumps. Unless I could use a jump upright instead? If that is ok where would it make the most sense to put it/them?
>>Being perfectly still for now (no foot movement) and having the placement cookie ready and in place before she gets to bar 3 will help her learn the behavior (the 3rd bar is the truest left or right on this setup). Also, if you have a reward marker for “cookie in hand” that will help her know where to look.<<
Just to be sure I get it – where should the hand with the cookie be exactly? I suspect it should be near my knee on the side of the set up that she entered to promote the turn over the last ‘jump’, but I might be wrong.
>> So, you can consider a slightly different delivery – elongate the vowels leeeleeeeleeeee riiii riiiiiiriiiiii because that will sound very different plus the slightly elongated deliver will match the physical cues that generally accompany these softer turns.<<
hmm, will try to remember that. I had been considering Brigitte’s Gee and Haw from sledding but I don’t have the background to just automatically know the correct one to use so thought modifying left and right might work better.
Week 10 – Rocking Horse 2
I moved the mats off the main area I use to get back to the berber carpet underneath to see if that would work better for faster stuff, especially the wraps. I had covered it up because Rumor and Ziva didn’t seem to do well on it wrapping jumps at full height so will ahve to see how it goes for a bit. I tested with Rayven, she slipped once around one barrel but she was crazy excited to be playing. If it seems to be ok we’ll relay everything and put the mats underneath for the extra cushioning.
Let me know what you think of how Beka is doing on it.
I also couldn’t remember where the ‘jumps bars’ are supposed to be on these so I didn’t add in any verbals as I wasn’t sure if they were back sides or fronts, although a RS can be used on both so likely not that big a deal.
Baby –
Sorry, I set the phone up a little wrong on this so my head is cut off for the most part.
She slipped the first time here but that might have been partly my bad send and she also seemed to adjust well after that. A couple of times she starts to cut in front on the way to the next barrel – not sure if that is me, her looking for the toy (she did seem focused on it here and there but overall did really well with it in my hand), or just the pattern she is used to with 2 barrels from prior games.
Advanced –
So, after all the crosses it is surprisingly hard to figure out how to do a simple post turn and end up doing a turn and burn on the right barrel in the right direction. I messed up the first couple of them.
And I might be in some trouble with this one on course – listen to her on the last one – LOL! Louder than Ziva when she would tell me I was late.
thanks
Lori
