[Lori-Anne Harker]

HI Tracy

I tried a bit of ‘get the toy’ in the bathroom this afternoon. Not sure this is how you were thinking totally? The orange/yellow tug seemed to be less likely to get picked up at all, but generally she seemed mostly interested in chewing on the tug toy (lack of moverment of toy or teething maybe?). Wanted to see if this is on the right track at all. I’m blocking a lot of it but hopefully you get the idea of what is happening.

Send and Commitment (Toy Only):

I did another session of the send and commit from week 1 using treats and a toy with your suggestions, but Beka was paying too much attention to the hand as the treat was there. Decided to do a session with just a toy today and that worked much better. At one point she was heading back to the bag on her own. Used the wrong word once when she touched the bag and she visited the camera (LOL!)

Re the blind cross game from live class tonigh:

Is tossing the toy ok on this game given toy races are off limits for now with Beka? A long toy might be hard to manage when we get to try the full game. try tossing treats instead (i wouldn’t use a bowl to target in case it puts her off)

Thanks

Lori

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.

[Lori-Anne Harker]

HI Tracy

The hallway is only ~3′ wide and it’s unlikely she could get by me based on our first try at this but will try our other bathroom, the bathroom I have set up for training in is way too big.

>>I think Rayven was an unusual case in terms of arousal and environmental sensitivity, wouldn’t you agree? Unless Beka is a really close relative or a genetic repeat, I don’t think you need to worry as much.<<

Rayven is that, such differences between home (where she is quite chill and a lovely girl happy to play frisbee and go for walks) and doing the things she loves! Rayven is Beka’s aunt, from a half sister of both Rayven and Ziva (so Ziva is also an aunt), so pretty closely related but not full sisters or anything like that.

Ok, will just keep watch for any signs that she is concerned about the movement, etc.

Thanks!

Lori

[Lori-Anne Harker]

HI Tracy

Back up –

>>Take a peek a StrykR and Kirstie’s threade, she is using a chair and having the pup come pretty far under it, which makes the backing up even easier to produce 🙂<<

I took a look and will see if I have a chair that would work to let her get farther under it, I can totally see how that would help her automatically back up. Should I try marking the back feet moving too? You had me stop that, well switch to saying ‘get it’, but that isn’t a marker for telling her she is doing the right thing and I sort of feel that is something that is missing now since there doesn’s seem to be much telling her what is right as the tossed treat seems more of a lure than a reward.

>>I still think you should aim the toss between her front feet rather than putting it in past her shoulder because it causes her to turn around – your right hand tosses were past her and I think you left hand did a better job of getting the cookies under her. So work for dropping the cookies in under her chest, even if the hand comes in from the side.<<

That is going to be tough, she really doesn’t have much space between her front legs yet being not quite 19 weeks yet but we will try.

>>Now – let it percolate. This should not be trained every day but rather every couple of days at most, to allow for some cementing and latent learning (no puppy exercise should be done every ay, except maybe recalls).<<

Generally I try to do different things on different days, or nothing much on some, and she is still figuring out life in the house and still sleeping a fair bit, learning to live with her aunts (Ziva needs to tell Beka off more than she does when Beka is being annoying, and Rayven and her both need to learn it isn’t all about PLAY, they can settle without needing to interact – LOL!)

Wing Wraps –

>>One more step before adding the upright – you can do the stealth placement of the food by quickly and quietly putting the treat down while she is eating the previous one, so she is not relying on your hand movement – so you can encourage her to offer going back and forth on her own. She is seeing/waiting for hand movement so we want to be sure she is doing this on her own before you add the upright. So one cookie goes to the lid and while she is moving to it and eating it, the other cookie goes to the other lid and ideally she does not see that happening. And if she looks at you: do not move your hands. Let her make a decision to offer going to the next lid, then reward with the treat.<<

Ah, ok, missed that step, will do that one next then.

Drive to toy –

>>Yup. So…. this game goes on the shelf for now in a big space. The get it on toys game now moves to the smallest possible space (bathroom with the door closed or a big closet) so you can sit on the floor and play with her bringing the toy to you and not running off. Short get it toss will start the game, then when she grabs it and *does not try to move away* (or move away too far) you can reward that by having her tug with something in your hand, then let her have that toy, and repeat. She doesn’t have to bring it to you yet, she just needs to not try to leave with it (being in a tiny space will help that :))<<

I can use our hallway for this. I had this idea too after the last drive to toy video session but think I did it a bit wrong based on your desciption so I have some questions based on that attempt:
– Ttwo toys that are long enough to tug on?
– Toys about the same value?
– Hpw much distance do you think I should give her to get the toy and come back? I didn’t give her much and I am thinking that may have been wrong?
– if she doesn’t bring it towards me at all what then? Go in and play tug with the one she has?
– If she doesn’t pick up the toy just redo? no playing with either tug for that one?

Wobble board:

>>I don’t see any signs of over-stimulation. Great! Just playing with a toy on a floor that happens to move a little.<<

It’s not that I am thinkng the toy would cause over-stimulation. It’s more that I don’t want to rely on getting her to a high enough arousal level that it overrides any concern she might have that isn’t really noticed becasue of the arousal and there could come a point where I can’t get her arousal high enough to overcome the concern. That is pretty much what happened with Rayven and it took over a year to fix trying many different things and then finally using Amy Cook’s play way information which just got her super comfortable with minimal arousal being involved at each stage until she was comfortable.

>>Neither – she is a baby pup and it makes sense that she would want to sort out how to weight shift in tug on a stable surface rather than a moving surface. She did well! At this stage, there is no need for her to have to stay on the board to weight shift, that all gets added in later when the pup is more experienced and more developed.<<

Sounds good!

Blinds –

>>It was hard to see your upper body on this one, and it is an upper body cue – my guess is that she could not really see the new connection so if we make that clearer, the side change will be easier.
I think your timing is generally fine (yes a little late at :56 but also your were a little over-rotated on that one) – try making more eye contact down to her, or dip your shoulder down to make that eye contact, rather than presenting the toy. She might not see the eye contact enough so she is following your feet. The recall element of it looks great so now we need to show her the side change element 🙂<<

Ok, will try again in a couple of days and see about finding a better place for the camera to record from too. And this is definitely one where I find twisting my tors0 is more comfortable in one direction than the other, so that is going to affect things.

Thanks!

Lori

[Lori-Anne Harker]

HI Tracy

Back up –

Played with a couple of options for this. I thought the bed as a target would be perfect – not so much – she kept laying down on it since that is what I have been rewarding – LOL! Tried sitting on the floor like I did with Rayven, didn’t really like that one for me this time. Grabbed a small stool and tried using it and think I like that one the best overall.

Here’s the video, a few issues on my part with treat placement but this seemed to go MUCH better overall.

Wrap foundations update from Week 1:

Tried this again with margarine lids to drop the cheese on, went pretty well and she is turning on her own pretty much, a couple of times the cheese got stuck against the edge of the lid slowing her down. going to try adding in an upright next time.

We played on a couple of things in the basement. I need to figure out teaching her stairs (a full flight, she does three steps in the house all the time) as she is getting heavy to carry down and especially up.

Drive 2 Toy Redo:

Used two of my longest toys and tied them together for this one. I am pretty sure she is going to be a runner if she gets the toy before I can get there – drat. I realized i didn’t swap sides either.

GOAT 2 – Wobble Board with Toy

Then we did the wobble board again just using a toy. I think this is what you are thinking for use her. We did some tugging both on and off the board. It struck me that she was shifting off the board on some of the tugging but not all? Not quite enough room on the board or a bit worried?

Blind Cross Foundation Redo

Finished with trying the blind crosses with more room – also means more room for treats to go awry – LOL! Still not turning as early as I should be on these. I should have moved the camera position too.

Thanks

Lori

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy

Thanks so much for the additional options for this, sitting will be a lot easier on my back and hip, especially since a puppy requires a lot of bending overall. My back and hip don’t seem to mind movement but being stationary in odd positions tends to be a problem.

>>So you can reach your reward hand forward and place it to where you want the cookie to be – this will help her back up and NOT turn around. I would place it just behind her front feet.<<

OK, so basically trying to get her to see the second treat under her between her front legs should get her to move backwards without turning.

I think I like using a bed as a target idea for her too. Will try that option for sure.

Thanks again!

Lori

[Lori-Anne Harker]

HI Tracy

OK, will try with toy as the reward. This isn’t the actual teeter so there shouldn’t be a cross association in any case.

>>Feel free to cheat and distract her with a cookie throw (or a fake cookie throw LOL!)<<

Can do that in the basement at least, not in the snow or the arena.

>>I bet if you used a 5 lbs toy (it was just a bunch tied together) then she would not be as quick to run off with it, buying you tie to get into the tugging 🙂<<

hmm, yes maybe if it a few toys tied together she wouldn’t be able to grab it and run away (which hopefully she won’t try to do).

Back Up Again –

Sooo, I tried to make the adjustments you suggested, tried a few times today for that matter, and I am finding it incredibly frustrating.

It’s hard on my back and one hip because I have to bend over much more than with tugging and hold the position for a longer period without moving. If my legs aren’t the right distance apart it’s really easy for her to simply turn around rather than back up. If the treat bounces when I drop it between my legs depending on where it ends up she either doesn’t have to back up to get out or she just walks right through my legs to get the treat. I can’t toss a treat through her legs as she doesn’t really move from between my legs until after I toss it and I can’t really do it while she is still between my legs (plus the whole she has no chest yet – LOL!) and once she takes a step back out from between my legs she simply turns around to go find the treat so I don’t think she has backed up more than one or two steps at most.

This video is probably the best I have gotten. I started putting the treat between my legs while she was getting the one I tossed as otherwise the toss had to happen way too soon after dropping the treat and there was too much happenign in a small area. Saying ‘get it’ she seems to turn away as soon as she backs out from under my legs. I am having trouble trying to imagine this turning into backing up more than a step or two right now.

Thanks

Lori

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy

>>Perfect, couch cushions work<<
>>I think the balance discs and fitbones require a core strength and balance that a 16 week old puppy does not yet have, so do this with stable surfaces for another month or so with more limited interaction with unstable surfaces.<<

Couch cushions it is then for now.

Goat game wobble board:

>>This is a good set up! Get it for tossed treats and also having her go back and forth for the toy is fun for her too. Do you have a marker for when you want her back on the toy? I add in a “bite” marker. You can wait for her to offer getting back on the thing after the get it cookie rather than just smack the toy, so the toy is ,ore of a reinforcement of what she offers and less of a lure for this.
And, bear in mind that you can shape the whole session with the toy!<<

Haven’t decided on all my words for getting food and toys/tugs. Some are in place but mostly for food situations. I have to look back at the reinforcemtn course for some ideas.

2nd session:
>>My general rule with puppies is to get at least 2 sessions in a row of super high rate of success (90% or better of high level confident offering) before I change anything. She was starting to offer by the end here, but really only front feet because there was more motion. So don’t change anything on the next session, or you risk her beginning to overthink it. Instead, just do another couple of sessions like this til she is slamming it all around, then change something a tiny tiny bit. I think using toys only for this will be better than food- it is just more exciting and action-packed for her, so she moves more and thinks less 🙂<<

OK, will leave it where it is for a few sessions. My concern with only using the toy is that I don’t want to rely on using a higher arousal level to override any concerns she has with the motion. Have had too many BC’s go through teeter issues of various severity (Rayven being the worst) and taking a lot of time to work through them, when it would have been better for them to be comfortable with the motion without their arousal overriding any concerns until it doesn’t anymore.

Driving ahead session:
>>She did great with the driving ahead! Nice job being connected to her, releasing her when she was looking ahead, and she was great about driving ahead without any worry about your motion. SUPER!!!! Add more distance whenever you get a moment and have space to do it.<<

I thought she did great too. 🙂 For much farther will have to switch toys as this one doesn’t toss great. Outdoors will work for now, we don’t have a lot of snow so far, but probably will have trouble beating her even with a push back unless the toy is close to us. We’ll be in the arena in the new year once a week (Ray is taking a break for a bit) so will be able to do there also.

>>About the running off with the toy.. Bearing in mind that this is a drive ahead game and not a retrieve game: You don’t have to ask her to retrieve it, you can just get in there and play play play. You got to the toy with her then turned and ran away. By running away, you asked her for a skill she does not have and added failure to an otherwise great session on the skill you wanted to train. So when she arrives at the toy, reach in and play with her rather than ask for a retrieve. You were close enough to be able to do that here, she only ran off when you asked for the retrieve. If in the past she has taken off with the toy when you reached for it, then yes – make it a REALLY big toy by tying a bunch of toys together so she gets one end and you get the other. But even with a really huge toy or a toy on a line… don’t ask for a retrieve with this game, just play. The retrieve can be trained separately and that way you can build up both skills.<<

Got it! Separate drive ahead from retrieve. I may need to make the toy a fair bit longer to make sure I can get it when she beats me.

Thanks

Lori

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy!

Great re the videos, I wasn’t sure from the course description.

GOAT –

>>The disc is rather tall for a 16 week old pup to easily get her back feet on and then she doesn’t quite have the core strength to stay on it long (she is a baby dog) – do you have something flatter/easier so you can mark & isolate the back feet? I love that she offered her whole body on it, and we can keep looking at ways to make it easier and fun!<<

Hmm, about the only thing I have available is one of the cushions (about 2’x2′ and 4″ high) from an old couch that I use for some conditioning work at times. Other than that it would be a fit bone or use a couple of my smaller balance disks.

Any Toy –

I just pulled a variety of different things together in the bucket to see what she would do. She actually likes tugging on the leash and tugs pretty hard on it, but it’s always been done when she is wearing it so not so it’s not bunched up. Don’t have many long toys at the moment. I still don’t have a great idea of what types of tugs are more or less fun for her. Will try to build an order that offers more fun after less fun.

Backing Up –

Sound goods on all the suggestions. I think tossing the treat between her legs will be a challenge – she has no chest yet (LOL!) – we’ll see if I can manage that one.

I did a couple more sessions today:

GOAT 2 – Wobble Board –

Did 2 short sessions in the basement of this separated by the Drive to Toy session below. First session had 3 layers of pads under the board, second I had 2. The first time in the second she noticed the extra drop but seems to have adapted after a couple of times on it. Next time I’ll start with the 2 layers and then go down to one.

Wobble A –

Wobble B –

Drive to Toy –

Did this between the two wobble board sessions above.

She drove out to the toy pretty well, and didn’t seem bothered by me running up behind her. Will be using a toy on a rope next time to prevent the running off with the toy.

Thanks

Lori

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy

All your comments make sense and will apply them, timing might be a bit off with a few of the videos posted below for Week 2.

Have another question re video posts – we are past week 1 but there are a couple of week 1 things I haven’t had a chance to apply your suggestions (like the Send & Committment and wrap foundations in particular) and video tape. Can I still post short vids of those for feedback?

Onto some week 2 videos.

GOAT 2 – Movement and Noise:

Used one of my large balance disks for this session. She has seen this disk before but not in isolation. I had it surrounded by a bunch of my other disks and fit bones to just get her on them as she has a definite tendency only put her front feet up on them and then stretch across them rather them put her back feet up on them.

Next we’ll try the wobble board, think I will try it with towels to reduce the amount of drop mine has to it.

GOAT 3 – Plankrobatics:

She has seen and been on a raised plank at her puppy class a couple of times. There she was on leash and happily bounced on and off it, trotting along the length of it. A bit more exciting environment with the other puppies doing things too than shaping at home is.

Any toy, anywhere, anytime:

We have done some tugging on a variety of toys in different places already, including puppy class and a pet store and tha agil-tracks building. The red rubber hollee roller-style bone was the hardest to get her tugging on, might be a function of her teething right now as she has tugged on milkers which are also rubber.

Hind end Awareness:

Not sure about this one. I had to adjust how far apart my feet were or she could sort of just turn around more than back up. I found it hard to pick up on back feet movement for some reason so wasn’t sure how it was going. She is alo not much into using her back feet independantly yet, one of the reasons we have some issues with getting on things and especially doing the getting into boxes games.

Thanks!

Lori

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy

Think I get all your comments.

Here are a couple more of the week 1 games:

Blind Cross Foundation –

I was late doing the Blind on the first rep of each side, not quite so late on the next rep. Pulled out a new tug that she seems to like, although I think she was hinting that the freeze dried beef liver that I was using for the toss was better based on her not grabbing the tug a couple of times.

GOAT tricks –

Tried to be cognizent of my reinforcement rate with her. I should have played tug with her more often after treating her.

Re the notes on this and getting the puppy into a higher arousal state, I definitely don’t feel like I am really getting her into a state of arousal that is conducive to shaping. She is naturally at a much lower arousal and intensity level then Rayven (understatement of the year!), and probably also than Ziva (harder to say that was 13 years ago now and she was miss perfect).

I have been casually tossing treats and pairing with a game of tug and she seems to like that game, she is running out to get them faster it seems to me.

Send And Commitment –

I had done one other foot to target session before I thought I would give this a try. I thought Beka did awesome, even left the tug to go to the target on her own once. I accidentally rewarded her at the target on the send a couple of times.

Thanks

Lori

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by Lori-Anne Harker.

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy

>>What does she naturally do with the toy? You might not need the toy on a leash, maybe just a really long toy, or work in a smaller enclosed space like a long hallway so she doesn’t have far to go<<

Well, we haven’t really played any games enough to figure that out, but when she is just out with toys on the floor and she grabs one she will often run around with it, squeak it, or chew on it, just generally play with it. don’t think there is a built in retrieve with this one.

Can definitely play in the hallway behind us in the video, it’s just not a place that I can really do a video in as it’s much too short.

>>On this game, you can drop the toy to the ground sooner after you get it back, almost immediately – holding it in the air is not exciting and she is not likely to focus on it but dropping it is very exciting and will draw her focus to it. <<

Even if I don’t really have her by her collar or chest yet? She doesn’t really understand the set up part yet since this was our first time on the game. I would think she would just take off for the toy right away if I drop it sooner and not be focused on it. Not a big deal right now?

>>For this game, I would have you sit down so you are not bending over. And as soon as she drives to it, you can get in and get it moving (you don’t need to wait for her to grab it – she is really young and needs the toy to be moving for now). She was getting really good at driving to it!!!<<

Hmm, sitting and getting in to move the toy aren’t really compatible??? Ahh, so ok if I grab the toy and make it move before she grabs it, I thought she needed to grab it before I get in there.

45 sec? That is likely only going to be about 1 – 2 reps given starting the time, getting her engaged, doing a rep and playing in between and setting up again…

>>I like chatter and all but you can pick and choose when to use it (especially her name) so that it adds value and doesn’t fade into the background. I think you were calling her name to keep her attention – you can make the transition faster by having the treats in your pocket so that it is almost immediate <<

I get the chatter part, I can be so bad with that at times, will try to remember to keep it down. So are you saying use food instead of tugging to get engagement when we start a game so we can transistion into the game faster? Not positive if that is what you mean?>>

>>nice shirt!<<

isn’t it awesome!

>>You can cover the other toy a little more with your hand, and make the new toy that you are banging more visible. It was hidden behind you so she was ignoring the noise because she didn’t see the toy moving. So move the toy forward so she sees it.<<

Ok, that is an easy adjustment to make.

>>She had barely gotten her mouth on the toy when the other one was already banging – be less quick so she can engage with the toy for a couple of seconds. Count to 3 in your head before banging the other toy<<

Ahh, so it is ok for her to play a bit with the toy before I start with the other toy. Got it.

Question – with a toy being used would you expect her to turn away from the toy she is at and head back to the other toy if the other toy isn’t being banged? I am not sure I would expect that even if I stop moving the toy she is at or cover it up more. Using treats the treat is gone after she eats it so there is nothing on that side to keep her there anymore.

EEK!!! No IYC?!? NOOOO!!!! LOL!! We have been doing all the IYC stuff I’ve done with Rayven and Ziva in the past, so for food bowls, treats in bowls on the ground when we are training, placed/tossed on the ground, etc. So none of that for her for now sounds like?

So if I try this game with treats again I should probably toss it to the side rather than into a plate? Sort of like I was describing we did in puppy class on Wednesday night, toss to one side and as she turns back toss to the other side, then as she starts to pattern that delay the toss to the other direction?

thanks

Lori

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy

Here are a few videos for first attempts at some of the games.

Drive Ahead –

Going to say I hate working with a toy on a leash – so awkward. A couple of times she seemed to be more interested looking at the leash part, but things got better as the toy get farther away. I need to start teaching her a retrieve but have to decide on the how. With Rayven it was such a struggle with the bring back part.

Drive To Handler –

A couple of bad treat throws on my part. We have played a bit of FX games just goofing around outside so I thought I would try them at the end here.

Wing Wrap Foundation –

I am definitely not sure how to properly apply the toys to this one for moving to the next step where they should turn back to the other side on their own without the toy banging.

I also threw in trying with treats. Dog food bowls were a hard no even with saying get it – forgot that I have been doing IYC with her food bowl when she is fed – LOL! Plates were a little better with the ‘get it’ used, but to me that is not something you would want us to need to use.

Thanks

Lori

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy

Yep, until now I’ve been really lucky that all my dogs have come to me a foodies, so now I am paying for it – LOL!

No longet sure how much the issue is lack of food motivation or possibly motion of the reward. Had a puppy class last night where we were doing a variation of the wing wrap foundation game using treats we tossed in each direction as the puppy turned back to us. she had no trouble at all running out to get those without distracting to other things (including the other puppies palying the same game within a few feet).

Will play the treat and play tug game separately for sure. her favority activity? Not sure that I know that yet, maybe squeaky a toy, licking Ziva’s face (you can guess how Ziva feels about that), or playing with Rayven.

Question about posting videos – Do you want us to post a video and wait for your response before posting another? Or can we post several separate ones in the same post if we do a few of the games and edit/upload a few videos?

Thanks

Lori

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy

Yep, want to build food value! For me it’s so weird to have a BC that isn’t that food motivated.

After the online class did a bit of a session with the foot target, more for trying out ‘treat then tug’. This is most of it, she definitely stuck with things better this time, not going away sniffing, etc, but I also realized I wasn’t moving the treat in a way to get more movement out of her – next time.

Thanks

Lori

[Lori-Anne Harker]

Hi Tracy

Thanks for the response!

So,

1 – treat and then tug right after to build value for treats/food
2 – get excited giving her the treat, and moving the treat to make it more exciting (followed by tug after the delivery!).
3 – for the nose to target put it on the target (DRAT! I know to do that, me being lazy!)
4 – get on my feet. (Yikes! all the bending for the nose target)

Will do a foot target video a bit later – she needs a nap.

Lori

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