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I feel that, about the impulse control!!! He is SO TALENTED which is why it is important to go slowly and protect his gains. Things get very exciting in the last games package and it will also include a plan to return to the ring 🙂
Hi!
>>Rusey was feeling very fast!
To be honest, I thought the video was in fast forward for a moment and had to check. She was FAST and also nice and tight! When connecting with the opposite arm, keep it close to you and don’t move it (I often touch my opposite hip with it) – that way it will open up the connection but won’t look the same as a threadle arm.
I think the Smileys look great!!!! Only one suggestion: because I know your goal is tighter turns on course, change how you reinforce: rather than throw the reward so she explodes to it as you decelerate… keep running and make her chase you out of the turn for it. That changes her focus to driving to you, which will improve turns 🙂On the tunnel exits, I see what you mean about her exiting the tunnels like a rocket! I think the first left verbal cue was perhaps a little late, but even when they were earlier she was still not as tight as we want. I think 2 things were happening:
first, I know I said give the verbal when the dog is about a metre from the tunnel, and I think that is what you were doing. But some dogs need it more like 2 or 3 metres from the tunnel. My Voodoo (the black Border Collie – Croatian Sheepdog mix) is very “forward” so he gets his tunnel turn cues at least 6 metres sometimes 3 metres before he goes into the tunnel. Ruse might just be a smaller version of Voodoo 🙂
second – I think the physical cue being shown before she enters will help too: you were running straight, which seemed to override the turn verbal. You when she arrives at the 2 metre spot before the tunnel entry, give the verbal and also let her see you turn and leave for the wing. That should get the turn going.
I found a couple of videos to give you a visual of what I mean:
Here is Voodoo:
https://youtu.be/Zcrn6j1IOIM?t=273Here is the baby BorderWhippet learning tunnel turns with the 2 metre distance, so you can see how much we show the dog that early:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpdqbKmk5qoYou can shorten up the tunnel so it is not quite as stimulating (perhaps? LOL!). But I think the earlier cues (physical and verbal) will totally help 🙂
Let me know what you think! Nice work here!
TracyHi! I think he has it now! Note how he is staring at it before you let go. Yay! And he was super successful hitting the position and holding it while you did all sorts of things. Super!!! And it is fine that he wouldn’t get off the board haha!!! Good boy!
So… drumroll please…. onwards to the teeter!!!! Put the target right on the bottom edge of the teeter and with a tiny bit of tip, ask him to leap on and into position. Start it easy to transfer the concept, but I am guessing he will figure it out immediately and then we will be moving quickly through the bang and elevator games. Happy dance!
Great job!!!!
TracyHi! Lots of good work here!!
First up, the teeter-tables at the beginning and end: these look GREAT. He is doing exactly what we want: run run run stop. LOL! And not worried or leaping off or avoiding… fast and happy!
>>I’m struggling to find something to at more tip without just going to ground>>
I think we need one more level before going to the ground – I love what he is doing and want to protect it so you get more of it. Can the white PVC legs be removed from the blue table, or are they glued in? The blue table top would be perfect.
Do you have a wooden box or something? Or even a bunch of heavy tunnel bags?Definitely do more of this, he really likes it and has made great progress. We will be getting it to the ground really soon! I think if you can find one more level to do a couple more sessions like these, then he will be ready for it to go to the ground.
The elevator game also looks really strong – I know it takes about 4 arms to feel comfy with it LOL! I couldn’t hear if you were doing a countdown before the target cue or not? If so – great! If not, add the countdown so he can be prepared for when you add more height. Speaking of more height… add more LOL! And I added more to the Elevator Game today, so move to that step.
The elevator game is the game that really puts it all together AND helps us get it into the trial ring, so definitely put a lot of focus onto it.
His bang game is looking good! Add some more tip here too 🙂
And his end position on the wobble board was cracking me up – he was all like “how am I supposed to stop on this tiny thing??” LOL! But he figured it out, good boy! One thing to remember: if you are moving, keep moving for at least 2 or 3 steps *after* he is fully stopped. You were in a rhythm of decelerating and stopping with him, and we don’t want him to rely on your decel to stop in position on the teeter.
Because this wobble board is so portable, I highly recommend you take this game on the road – if you are going to be at a trial, you can play it near the ring as kind of a ‘pre-teeter in a more stressful environment’ challenge.
Excellent work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>wrap/tunnel: ok yes I see what you mean about multi wraps slowing him down. So many classes emphasize multi wraps and I never understood why.>>
Agreed!!! I obsessed a LOT on why it was being done, and which dogs actually benefitted from that.
When we use the doubles to teach the dogs to lead into turns with their heads to improve the quality of the turns… totally worthwhile as a training game (we did this in the first MaxPup).
But in all honesty… many people use multiwraps as a punisher if they did not like the quality of the dog’s turn in a sequence, so they make the dog do multiple wraps. The dog looks tighter (because he is slower) but never actually learns to turn tight in the first place (and the handler blames the dog rather than improves the cue to help the dog)Now, you were totally not using it as a punisher, you were just playing the multiwrap game LOL! But I don’t think he needs it because you said: he is totally balanced. Maybe that will change and he will go lunatic and you will need to ask for more thoughtfulness? And the head turn double wrap game is great for a wing near a trial ring because it challenges his ability to lead with the head in a highly arousing environment 🙂
T
Hi! No worries about several posts at once, editing can be really time consuming!
He did really well here too, I am really happy with how his commitment is developing!!
>>but wasn’t super happy with some turns being wide at first. I think having the cone plus wings was a little confusing at first?>>
I don’t think it was the cones plus wings, he seemed fine with that. I think it was a little bit of late timing and connection and a spot or two where your line or motion didn’t support a tighter turn. For example, at :06 he was a little wide on the wrap because your rotation was late, so he is very honest and went long 🙂 And a little more connection as he comes back around it will help too, rather than looking forward. At :13, you were pretty far from the line you wanted to get him into the tunnel, so he read you position (and that is why he was a little wide).
Compare it to what you did at :37: soooo much earlier on your rotation and on a REALLY nice line: great turn there! Super! Note how you were fully turned before he even got to the wing. And that was also a good place to reward.
>>he turns tighter and digs in more when he’s at higher arousal than in this video.>>
I agree, nothing to worry about, I prefer they go blasting around a bit at this age because it is easy to teach him to turn nicely (because he can work in arousal without losing his thoughtfulness). 2 things to get him to work in higher arousal: start closer to the wing or cone so you can explode out of it more, rather than send and be stationary for longer. That will kickstart the drive on the lines.
And… resist the multiwraps 🙂 At :33 you asked for one and it reduces his arousal which slows him down. So, for now, I recommend skipping them. I recognize that they are a popular training game but I reserve them for when we need to improve the quality of a turn or improve thoughtfulness. And if the dog slows down, I put them away for a while. He is doing fine with both so now it is a matter of working out timing to cue sooner.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This is a hard game, he did REALLY nicely 🙂
You started by wrapping him away from the tunnel, which is challenging but not as hard as wrapping towards it, so he was very successful! He had a couple of errors at :17 and :19: It is hard to see from the video angle, but it looks like you might have been blocking the view of the wing (and definitely learning towards the tunnel at :19). As the verbals percolate, be sure to let him see the whole wing.
His tunnel verbal is strong throughout! And the wraps were definitely a bit harder turning toward the tunnel of course 🙂 But he did really well! Good boy!! Yes, a couple of extra tunnels but that is part of the training process 🙂Food for thought for him, specifically: I suggest resisting the temptation to do a double wrap or multiwraps with him, for a couple of reasons:
– his success rate on single wraps with the tunnel right there is not high enough yet – we want to reward every single correct answer with a primary reinforcement (the cue to wrap again is at best a conditioned reinforcement, eventually, but probably not yet for puppies). So if he gets it right the first time, toy! Or cookie 🙂
– some dogs are a little wild or over-aroused, so the multiwraps can settle them a bit into a more thoughtful effort. For example, my BorderStaffy was a crazy frothing wild woman, so I would do that a little to get her to process the verbals and not just run as straight as possible all the time except the moments she was grabbing my shirt LOL! Your Robbie is pretty perfect right now in terms of the right state of arousal, so the 2nd wrap cue just causes him to slow down (also in the Smiley Face). Because he is already processing so nicely, we don’t need to ask for more thoughtfulness. If he ever loses his mind and goes wild and needs to be more thoughtful… then sure we can bring them back LOL! But right now the behavior you are eliciting is less speed (not improved quality of turn) so I suggest leaving them out for a bit. His errors were errors of learning the different verbals, not errors of over-arousal 🙂 I am happy with this session and I know he will keep getting better 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi there!
Lots of good stuff on these videos!
First up, driving ahead: He is doing a really good job driving ahead and looking forward! Good toy throws totally help that too 🙂 And that was good distance too!
Two little details:
When you will be asking him to drive ahead, start closer to the cone, right next to it and so you can move sooner. When you sent a little and stood still, he was (correctly) reading your lack of motion as a decel cue, so his acceleration to the jump started later. If you are closer to the cone, close enough to touch it… then your acceleration cue can start sooner and so his acceleration will start sooner too.
You can see that when you were way ahead of him – he saw the acceleration cue as soon as he exited the wrap and responded beautifully 🙂One other detail for the driving ahead reps: keep running til he lands (don’t decel as you throw :)) so the decel doesn’t cause him to slow down and also so he doesn’t learn to ignore when you decelerate to set up a turn. Run hard like you did when he was way behind you – it is the acceleration that will be a critical drive ahead cue and we don’t want to create any habits of slowing down too soon.
Great job here! We will build on this very soon 🙂
TracyHi!
I think the elevated target really helps! Yay! It seemed like she was really seeing it as “put front feet there and lie down” (you can see the really great decisions started at :37) Yay!! And it also seemed to help anchor her so she could resist the temptation to release on motion. That is helpful!!!Yes, I highly recommend more work on the board in terms of getting on right at the very end of it (rather than at the top of the yellow). Basically we want her to leap on and being moving into the downm all in one motion (kind of what BCs like to do anyway haha). Starting it on the teeter and around the cone is causing her to walk down into position and we only want to foster rehearsals of running to the end and driving into position. So while the understanding is growing, work lots on a plank. You can also use the target on a wobble board, and add the wing before it – that way she gets to come into it with a lot of speed (she will like that hahaha!) .
The other reason to work lots on the plank and wobble board for now is that you can get all of the mistakes out of the way on an obstacle that doesn’t matter. For example, when we use the wing with the wobble board, the dogs all fly off completely LOL!!! But better to work that out away from the teeter so it doesn’t happen when she is on the teeter itself 🙂And working the plank will make it easier to get the behavior generalized into different places because it is so portable.
When she is highly successful on the plank and the wobble board, the end position can move to the Bang Game but starting right at the very end of the board so she leaps on and lands in position.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Ah yes, she loves this game! Nice job!!!! As with the other games… I think the only hard part was the toy mechanics 🙂 She was easily able to do the minny pinny but was watching the toy and didn’t take the 3rd jump on the first rep. On the other reps, she didn’t know how to line up in the presence of the toy, so she had some errors due to facing the wrong direction at the start of the cue. And I think she also had some trouble giving the toy back later on. All of this gets sorted with those clean mechanics 🙂
So while it might have seemed like there was a LOT of questions going on across the different games, it is really only one thing that we are seeing – she needs clarity on the toy mechanics. A-ha! And that is easy enough to teach her! And I think once you have the mechanics worked out, the rest is going to be sooooooo easy 🙂 Yay!Now, disclaimer: training mechanics for us humans… those are hard 🙂 Cut yourself some slack if it takes a while to figure it out 🙂 When I started to learn training mechanics, my instructor didn’t even let me practice on animals, I could only practice by myself or with another human until he felt I was OK haha!!!
Nice work here! Let me know if it all makes sense!
TracyHi!
>>Getting Ria into position is a bit of a challenge that has occurred with a number of the games. She kind of wants to do her own thing and then after getting rewarded with a ball toss, she doesn’t want to come back to me.>>
This is also a spot that the training mechanics games will make all the difference – I think sorting out the mechanics of how to create cleaner training loops, a lot of the errors will go away. For example – you can line up, send, reward, line up as one fluid circular session. I suggest using food as part of it, even if food is not her favorite thing (incorporating food will actually help build value for it too).
So for example, using this game of a left turn on the wing then a serp on the jump:
she can come into the set up by tugging on the toy or doing tricks for treats. Use a treat to get the toy back and use a treat to line her up at your right side (she was on your left side to start and that creates confusion about which side of the wing you wanted).
Then cue the wing, cue the serp, throw the toy and when she brings it back, tug tug tug and use the toy or cookie to line her up again and do another rep. You were having her come back and line up at your side but I don’t think you were rewarding her a lot there so she was not as keen to do it as she would be with rewards.The other thing about working the mechanics is that I am not sure she fully knows how to ignore the toy in your hand (she is happy to ignore the food in the pouch) – a lot of your sends here were fine however if she doesn’t know how to *not* watch the toy, she will make the mistakes of not taking the wing when you try to move. That is why adding the clarity of when the toy is available as reinforcement versus when she should look for the obstacle will make it soooo much easier to do these – and I think it will help your tunnel games enormously too (see above). And by adding the cues so she knows when the toy is available, you will be able to have the toy in your hand and not have to worry about tucking it away or moving it too soon.
She ended up doing really well with these! She was watching the toy the whole time but you can already see how getting the line ups and being smoother in the mechanics will make it all more successful. Nice job!!!
TracyHi!
A lot of dogs think the noise of the MM is weird – her reaction to it is really interesting and actually can be useful for helping with some other things you might be seeing! Her reaction of biting it might be correlated to arousal when she sees other dogs (like the GSD you mention) so you can use the MM as a way to countercondition that response.
Rather than have her interact with it as a food dispenser, you can turn off the beep noise and just have her walk by it (on leash, so she cannot bite it) and countercondition (pairing food or toys with the presence of it). When she is happily ignoring it, you then you can trigger it like you did a bit here (the gears will grind) and you can pair that with food/toys too. This all starts at a distance, on leash, as if walking down the street 🙂Then the beep can get added back, as that might have been the hardest part for her. And then you can add the “Look At That Game” to this eventually too! All of that is designed to help her override the impulse to react or bite it (and some dogs also bite the teeter, so this can help her override that too if she would consider biting the teeter).
At some point, the MM might be useful as a reward dispenser but not for now (and it doesn’t have to ever be used that way :)) You can use a toy on the ground or an empty food bowl for the visual target aspect of it.
Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyGood morning!
Thanks for all the videos! I think there is one key to the puzzle that will actually take care of all the struggles you had here on these (except for the MM, that is different :))
The Clean Mechanics and Markers training will make all the difference in these sessions – I think she needs the clarity of when the toy is available as a reinforcement and when you would like her to line up or look a the obstacle. Without the clarity, you will both get frustrated.
This is the game I am talking about:
https://agility-u.com/lesson/clean-mechanics-and-markers/More on this concept as we work through these videos specifically:
I think that some of her struggles to find the tunnel had to do with thinking that your motion plus the toy means “run because the toy will be thrown” rather than “find the tunnel.” Good job breaking it down to get her going into the tunnel early in the session! I think she was stimulated by your running and the toy, and couldn’t quite ‘see’ the tunnel She did a lot better after a few reminder rewards, then she lost is a bit, then it came back. By adding in the marker for when the toy is in play versus when it is not, as well as lining her up so she is facing the tunnel and not looking at the toy, you will have a lot more success (the line ups will be easier if you use a cookie to line her up too, but you can use tugging to help her get into position).Having to get her into the tunnel made the turn cues late, so for example the left cues at 2:19 and 2:33 happened when she was in the tunnel and you were running forward, so she took it to mean “take the jump and turn left” Or at the end, you cued a right but you sent her to the tunnel on your right (which cues a left turn) so the line ups will totally smooth all of that out 🙂
To help smooth it out, you can set it up a little differently:
Try a shorter tunnel, and send on an angled entry so you are closer to the enrty, more towards the middle of the tunnel (rather than starting from far away and running hard) That way you will have an easier time getting commitment while also cuing the turn before she enters.And sorting out the mechanics will totally help: for example at 4:22 you had the toy on top of your head and she didn’t know she was supposed to look at the tunnel. The toy up there might also look like you are about the throw it, so when you ran, she just ran and didn’t tunnel. Being able to have the toy in your hand without her staring at it will take some training but is sooooo worth it! And you can also incorporate food for lining up. If she struggles to take food or line up with it in the presence of the toy, that is a good one to practice without obstacles so she learns the order of events 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense! The toy mechanics are the only piece of the puzzle holding you back 🙂
TracyGood morning!
“Fading foibles” that made me laugh, and so did the moment when you were getting on yourself about getting the words straight LOL!!!
The first part of the session went really well and then it got harder when the entire target was gone. She might benefit from a target in-target out – target in- target out series of reps, alternating the targeting being visible and then when she is off getting her cookie during a reset, pull it and send her right into position (then it is back for the next rep, and so on until it is not there more than it is there :)) Indoors, you can also make the target smaller and smaller and smaller.
And she might actually find this MUCH easier on grass, because the target is less salient on grass and she will end up targeting the grass which is actually ideal (same as on dirt).The only other suggestion is to have your treat ready so you can get it in before she looks up at you, rather than getting it from a pocket as that will draw her focus to your hands.
She is pretty fearless on the Bang Game, I love it! She was falling off a bit (losing some balance) when on your left, so you might want to warm her up with a couple of reps with it lower on that side then raise it back u. She seemed perfectly fine with her balance when she was on your right.
And keep starting her super close so she can leap on when it is that high – she is a willing participant when you started her further away, but she is also willing to crash and twist LOL!! So to help her have some self-preservation, no speed or distance needed on the bang game LOL!!Great job here! New games coming soon!
TracyGood morning!
I like your variation on it! Starting in the ‘neutral’ position makes it a real verbal challenge for the pups! She was incredibly successful and that is terrific! I like that she is speedy and driven but also able to process verbals.
Great job working both sides to get all the verbals in for the wing. I have one suggestion for you using your neutral position start: throw a toy out ahead so she can also be sent straight to it, either as a go or a ‘get it’. I suggest this because she was very clever and looking at the obstacle – and then you were cuing it. So to really add another layer of challenge, the toy out ahead that she sometimes goes to will keep her looking more straight, so you can then cue the wing or tunnel and she won’t already be looking at it. That way the verbals will be even truer to the obstacle and not associated with going to what she was looking towards. File it into the “trying to stay a step ahead of a really smart dog” department LOL!>>because I couldn’t envision when I would ever see a similar discrim on a course, i.e. asking the dog to go past the wing and into the tunnel without wrapping. But then, as I was editing the video, I could rationalize such a set-up>>
Yep, it is something we see on a lot of European style courses, I’ve just condensed it for puppies 🙂 And if the Europeans see it, we will be seeing it here pretty soon too 🙂 The main thing is to get the wrap and not go past the wing and grab the tunnel, especially with handler motion (not just verbals), as that is a common thing here. But the little bit of layering (past the wing into the tunnel) is coming in really handy for the distance classes in the various American organizations. And the Europeans are also shifting to big distance skills, layering, passing things to get to a tunnel… so this attempts to keep pace with them too LOL!!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
