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It sounds like you used a little time out (negative punishment) followed by watching your other dog (which is stimulating and that type of stuff has been known to increase behavior in studies). Time outs can be effective but can also backfire – so I use them sparingly. If I find I have to use them over and over and over and over, then I stop and sort out where I can prevent the undesired behavior from happening so I can train the desired behavior. If the pup has a general understanding, and gets a time out for an undesired behavior – and goes back to the desired behavior, then you are generally fine. I also find that after a negative punishment, I like to fill the next sessions with positive reinforcement for the desired behavior to help balance whatever shift might have led to the undesired behavior. Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyHi!
>>Wow the toy transtions group /link looks great! Question on the beginning stay training vid for this class:
what do you do when you are using a toy but the puppy takes victory laps instead of retrieve? Lure back with 2nd toy? what if that fails?>>A couple of things will help:
start in a smaller space so there is less room to run, which makes the victory lap less reinforcing 🙂
I put toys on long lines so there is not as much option to run around with them – and then you can work on the retrieve games with that, as well as rewarding for coming towards you with another toy or a treat (I *might* lure it once or twice to get the ball rolling, but then it becomes a reinforcement after a choice to at least bring the toy a few steps towards me).
Two other things that I find important for getting better retrieves:
I name and cue the victory laps, so Ican send the dog to do it. I say “go for a run!” and the dog can take the toy on a big loop – then when I think he is just about done, I call him back and reward for coming towards me with the toy. The cued victory laps allow the dog to have a moment as a release valve – and turns out they take fewer and fewer laps on their own.And – an important one – watch your toy mechanics (the Toy Transitions class has more on this). If the pup brings it back, and you take it away and go directly to your next rep… many dogs perceive that as a negative punisher for bringing the toy back and they stop bringing the toy back. That is why sooooo many dogs start out with great retrieves… but then they deteriorate through adolescence. Accidental punishers! So when my pup brings the toy back, I reward with something: a treat, another toy, tugging with the original toy. And when I take the toy or ask for an out – I also build in a TON of rewards for that too, very often giving the original toy right back.
And, be sure to train your retrieves, using the retrieve games, in the bigger areas. Most of us train them indoors in a small space but don’t also train them in the bigger spaces. Oopsie! I am for sure guilty of that 🙂 The games don’t generalize without training them, so do the basic retrieve games in the bigger spaces and you will see a difference too.
Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyHi! It sounds like you had a great week! Perfect!!! And I am really glad to hear Ted did so well. I definitely worry that our crop of pandemic puppies will have a harder time when life gets more normal – but there is not really anything we can do about that other than train 🙂 His toy play and his downs looked good!!!! He also did not look too chompy on your fingers 🙂 About the blinds – it was hard to see your eyes, so be sure you make eye contact as you finish the blind – eye contact is more important than hand cues, and I think you were emphasizing hand cues (which might be why it felt weird :)) You can use the hand cue for the tight turn when he gets to you – you used the opposite arm to set up that tight turn and I think it was very effective for him: note how he was turning his head and bending himself around your knee, but not swinging his butt out wide. YES! Very nice 🙂
If you have room, you can add challenge by going to a bigger space and increasing speed and then adding in the GO element of the toy race at the end after the tight turn.
Great job!!!
TracyHi! Thank you for the update!!
>>We have been working on the drive ahead and she continues to do a great job. I am moving with her but would like to work more in a more open area. Outside not an option right now. She likes to ride / bite on my shoe in general (not when focused on her toy) and I want to work on moving with her and making sure she is not doing that. So not checking it off yet although going well indoors.>>
Perfect! My smaller pup is all about biting my shoe, for some reason – I have her pick up a toy or eat a treat in any situation where she might get triggered to grab my feet LOL! So I will enter a room (that is a BIG trigger for her) and when I enter, drop a treat or give her a toy. Then I start to let her make a choice- if I can take a step and she resists my tasty feet… toys and treats! I can now enter and walk around a room and she will re-direct herself to a toy and not to my feet lol
>>So we introduced chicken for this exercise. The chicken trumps the toy drive. She is also doing well with this. We’ll do a few more sessions and check this one off. Since it is a small indoor space, I am not really seeing much decel, but something that I will need in the future. She is a fast little thing.>>
Decel in a small space will translate when you have more room, because you are still pairing in ‘drive to da momma’ even though you don’t have room for big sprinting yet 🙂 It builds a lot of value of drive to you!
>>We started the prop game this am using chicken. It went well but I need to be careful when I cue the prop that my arm does not arc back up at the end…that causes her to jump up towards it. The chicken residue is quite tempting. I tried it a few times with a toy but the chicken was already on her mind. Next session we’ll start with the toy and only pull out the chicken if needed.>>
Does she like lower value food? You can build value for a ‘boring’ cookie by rewarding her for swallowing it – she swallows a boring cookie, then she gets rewarded for that with a toy or chicken! It will help the less valuable cookies become more valuable 🙂 And yes, with the early stages of the prop sends, keeping your hand stationary helps. The hand (and chicken lol) has more value than the prop does, so keeping the hand still will really help.
Great update! Sounds like you are progressing beautifully!
TracyHi! Hooray for good weather!!!!! I am glad you got to play!
It fascinates me how young dogs need a really clear connection out of tunnels! All of them are like that – Eden, my dogs, and all of the pups here 🙂 At :03, you gave her the connection that your adult dogs would have no problem with, but she did not commit to the jump after the tunnel. Then at :16 you made a VERY direct connection as you kept moving – and she never even asked a question, just found the line perfectly. Yay! At :28 you didn’t even have to be close to the jump – just connected on the tunnel exit and she found the jump, no problem. I think the motion helped too – see below for more thoughts on that when you were trying to get to the blind cross 🙂
Wraps – I am glad you did not delete them 🙂 Your transitions are good – you can rotate a step sooner maybe but she was collecting really nicely! The main thing to tweak here is your position – and that might be why you didn’t like them – try to position yourself more on takeoff side near the wing. On the wraps at :19 and :30 you were transitioning into the turn nicely but positionally past the jump, on the landing side: so she collected but drove to your position, creating a wider-than-desired turn. If you aim for getting to the takeoff side of the wing you will find you get better turn – you might have to run closer to all of the wings on a small set up like this, because otherwise you might get there too soon and feel like you are waiting if you send her.
In the bigger sequences with the blind to the wrap: turning to the outside away from the course was good, she had no trouble with that! It was a little harder to stay connected so she missed the jump at :49 (you said tunnel, so she did LOL! I have made the same mistake with my pup LOL!) You had strong connection at :56 and 1:05 so she nailed it.
She had trouble at 1:11 and 1:16 and 1:28 finding the jump after the tunnel. It started with a little more connection needed and you did add connection – and then I think it was all about motion – you can run deeper in towards the curve of the tunnel, so you can be lateral (to set up the blind) and moving (so she sends to the jump) – kind of like what you were doing at the beginning of the session. The send without as much motion was hard after the tunnel (but we do have that as a Wingin’ Game to help fix that!)
After the blinds, try to keep your new dog-side arm further back and give her more eye contact so she can set up a tighter line for that. You had your dog-side arm out and to the side, so she didn’t see as much of the new line and was a little wider (the connection lines your shoulders up to the line better than the hand cue does).
You had great connection going on the pinwheels after the wraps and all the way back to the tunnel!Great job here! These are good challenges for baby dogs and she looks terrific!
Tracy
Hi! I just found a question that I don’t think I ever answered:
> What are your thoughts with adding in a peanut underneath so the board wiggles? Of course the peanut will be stationary so it can’t roll.>>
I would add this after he can do balance stuff on unstable surfaces (peanuts, donuts, discs) without the plank, so he is familiar with the movement of these. Then add one end of the plank on one unstable/low disc and see how it goes, before adding the height.
>>I haven’t put criteria to it yet but no time like the present.
What should the criteria be for hitting the mat?
Both rear feet hit the mat?>>Yes – you have already done the value building, which is basically “any foot hits the mat please and thank you” 🙂 and now we can go to the more specific split rear foot hit. Both rear feet. My best advice is to learn to stare at the mat and not at his feet. 🙂
T
Hi!
>>Didn’t have any pockets in my COVID attire.>>
HA!!! That cracks me up! I grabbed some new COVID attire because it had pockets LOL!!!! I think Covid attire might end up being my permanent attire, though 🙂
The backing up is going really well! Great job on the warm up and also great job pingponging the distances. You got better with being stationary… when you were moving even a little, she was turning and getting on the mat with her front end. When you were standing very still, she was backing up onto it like a champ! Yay! So now you can be a bit more selective: only click the ones where she backs up, and don’t click/treat the ones where she turns and gets on it with her front feet. Now, do this with an eye on rate of success – if she fails too much, she is going to get frustrated. So when you are selective – if she makes a mistake, get closer to the mat so it is easier to be correct.
>>How do I add the verbal on now?
When adding the verbal – do a quick warm up at the beginning of the session to refresh the skill (no verbal). Then when you are really very sure she is going to back up – right as she is eating the cookie that you have placed between your feet, quietly say the verbal – then click/treat when she does it. Basically, we are pretty sure she is going to back up after eating the cookie, so you can add on the verbal by doing it just before she offers the behavior, in the scenario which is causing her to offer the behavior. Let me know if that makes sense!
Great job 🙂
TracyHi!
Yes, Wayne Gretzky and Ken Jennings – both GOATs 🙂For t he cans – a low, big tuna can or a soup can can both work!
>Maybe glue some non slip on them.
Great idea! And on a non-slip floor too.
> Hmm….. I have her up on the Peanut already. She can almost climb up by herself. Hmm…I bet I could do the Goat game with that.
Yes, just be careful that the peanut doesn’t move around at all so she doesn’t slip. Have fun!
Tracy
Hi! We had a moment of a white Christmas but now it is back to green grass, thankfully LOL!
On the stays – try to not be tense as you walk away – that will draw her to you rather than help her stay 🙂 She was getting the idea! You can reward sooner though – toss the treat back on that very first step away, mixed in with the instant she sits, mixed in with a step or two away. You were using a catch cue (yay!) and I think adding a clicker will help too – something about the concept of ‘wait for the click’ really helps the pups get this started.
The putting-it-together game is looking good!! All of the elements look great- my only suggestion is to decel sooner after your blind cross, as you get into the turn – when you are late with your decel, she either doesn’t get a moment to slow down or she ended up on the wrong side. But when you slowed down it looked lovely! Your reps at approx 1:00 and definitely the last rep were smooth and beautiful. Yay!
Great job!
TracyHi!
This is also going well – I know I just bugged you about wrap timing but on the 1st 2 runs here – super good wrap timing! Really nice! On the 2nd wrap on each sequence, exaggerate your connection more (and sooner) because you were pretty far up the line, so that will help keep the turn tight when she finds her way to the jump before the tunnel.
Push cues – you can leave sooner on the FC after the push at :29 but she is reading them really well! Yay! But I totally see what you mean by getting toooooo many backsides LOL! You got an accidental push fter :29 – might be a slight bit of pressure from your feet as you deceled? Or just an error on her part.
At :43 there was bar down on the wrap jump after the tunnel – Theverbal was good but I think you were slamming on the brakes in the decel and ending up rotating late. And on the other sidem the a similar thing happened and she tried to read it in the air at :50 and her butt was higher than her shoulders 🙂 So, let her see a few steps of your slowing down then slide away into the rotation
to help smooth that out. The RC there looked good, the wrap RCs are HARD!!!
Back to the pushes: Ah now we have a lot of bonus backsides 🙂
Push cue at 1:10 was good! Then she was in push mode: at 1:18 and 1:27, maybe she needs more forward facing deceleration and transition starts when you see her looking at the front side of the jump – you can also call her name right before the push cue, to be all like “THIS IS NOT THE PUSH” haha so it would be YOWZA! checkcheckcheckcheck 🙂
The handling cues at 1:38 and 1:51 definitely looked like front side cues to me… but she was in a backside vortex. It could have something to do with more arousal from the added speed causing her to do Border Collie things like flank out away from you a bit… which puts her on the backside line. So, an idea: each time you add arousal by adding more speed or distance, only do front side wraps/go/RCs so that she learns to find the front when she is stimulated and not ping to the back. Let the first 2 sessions be all about the front. Then on session 3, when she has reconciled the arousal… throw in a backside or two 🙂 then back to all front side stuff. The backsides are low priority for the moment, so we can emphasize “find the front” when she is feeling the excitement of the wind in her hair 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! She seemed super confident going all the way up the board and did not seem to mind the noise or movement. Perfect!!
>> so this time I did this with the lower end slightly off the ground, >>
I think this actually slowed her down, because she had to wait and balance as it was dropping before running up the board – she had to think about 2 tips instead of 1. So, I think leaving the entry side on the ground will get you more speed and balance on the board.
>>Also, I put her in a down at the top, then at the bottom too – I thought it was a good idea, as I am teaching her to down at end of teeter>>
I think it is fine but it needs to happen sooner so she doesn’t lose her footing off the side 🙂 What is the cue for the down – a verbal from you, or a target, or a default/offered behavior? If it is a verbal, you can give it as soon as she gets to the top (before the reward). If it is a target, the target can be there. If it is default/offered – we should probably work that separately so she can offer it on a moving plank that is lower so she can control the balance sooner.
Let me know what you think! Nice work!
TracyGood morning! This is going well, her commitment looks really strong and your connection looks super and you were rocking the verbals, so now all we need to do is talk about the timing! The timing in general was really really good too, just a couple of spots where you can be sooner:
At the beginning of the session, your wrap versus push versus RC cues all looked different in the best way – I could tell from miles away what you wanted, and so did she! Yay! On the Go line, the cue also looked good – just remember to keep running until she gets to the toy and you can throw sooner so she doesn’t look back. Dogs love to look back at us on the last jump!
I think the only timing questions had to do with the wraps – your check wrap (to the right) at :48 was a little late so she was wide, but the RC version of it right after that was really lovely!
When you added the tunnel, it took you a moment to get into the groove of the wrap timing (things were happening pretty fast at that point LOL!) The decel for the transition into the wrap late at 1:03 and 1:10 – she saw it happening over the bar so she responded over the bar but couldn’t actually make an adjustment til after she landed (so she was wider on those). You can look for her landing spot from the jump before the wrap or exit of the tunnel before the wrap jump, to plan your decel into the wrap cue. You were much sooner at 1:19 and her turn was really nice!
BIG yay for the push at 1:22! You were behind her, she was flying… but you nailed the good timing and connection and verbal and she got it independently. That is TERRIFIC especially because she is young and inexperienced!!! You got another good one at 1:29. Double big yay!!!
And at the end you had good timing going on your wrap transitions at 1:33 and 1:38. You are pulling your shoulders a bit on those, meaning turning towards the wrap wing with your upper body before rotating away. I don’t think it is hurting the info but I do think it might end up delaying your rotation and your ability to get outta there really fast (which I believe you will need LOL!) so try less shoulder pull and just use changes in motion and see if she will still commit – your running line will still be towards the wing but you don’t need to turn your shoulders as much. Let me know if that makes sense.
Great job!!!
TracySo the dog comes between the jump and you then turns away to take the jump? I use my threadle slice verbal for that (‘close’) – kind of like this, except the handler continues to move past the jump and not towards the bar:
I probably have video of it somewhere, let me look…
Hi there! I will have more coming on the mat work, but a couple of things here –
I really like that he is moving in a trot to and through the mat: not bouncing or leaping or bunny hopping. Yay!!!!! That is really good- it will make it easier to build the running without leaping 🙂
first question that I always ask people: what is the criteria? It was a little hard to tell – split rear feet? It was hard to tell because the MM was not marking the behavior in terms of the beep – so a few ideas for you with that:
in these early stages, turn the beep off on your target mat and you will use a clicker or the MM beep. Three reasons for that:
first, as you establish criteria, he might hit the mat with front feet so it beeps – but you don’t reward. That causes the beep to lose value and then when you need the beep later on (because you are miles away and can’t see it), the beep won’t be useful to him in terms of knowing if he is correct or not. When my mat beeps, I always reward (more later on how to make sure the mat beep matches criteria :))
Second – if he hits the mat properly on the way back to you – reward him. Otherwise, a whole bunch of gorgeous hits go unrewarded and then you lose the gorgeous hits (I think that was happening here, it became a bit about going to the MM and not necessarily the mat). And if the beeper is on with the mat, a whole bunch of beeps go on rewarded which causes the beep to lose value. So, if he hits it on the way back – reward 🙂 and you can move off to the side to get him to come to your hand or tug on a toy so you can reset (although I do a LOT of back on forth on the mat to get the criteria firmly established).
Third – I like to train my eyes to be able to see what it looks like when the dog hits criteria (they all move differently) so a quiet beeper mat forces me to stare at the mat to watch for criteria – I have to rely on my eyes only and not my ears LOL!Let me know if that makes sense! Welcome to the RDW adventure!!
TracyHi!
>>I had to really break this down.
I think that was a good decision, led to a really strong session!
>> Stark forgot what a straight line and “Go” was so I sat the toy out front for a couple reps. That really helped jog his memory.
Yes – the GO is hard on the 2 jump set up because there is very little momentum. Setting the toy out is fine, he did well! And also good job mixing it in between the reps that had turns, to keep it fresh.
>>I mixed in a couple wraps and and he said check! Got this.
Yes – you were behind him as you did this, so the timing is a little harder (it is about his position) – the 2nd rep was really good! And I like how he was able to read it with you behind him, that is a good skill because we don’t always want to be ahead on the wraps.
>>His backside are weaker than wraps but we have not done nearly as much training with these. So I had to start in front of one jump with little motion. I was able to quickly add a second jump and more movement. This was nice to see. He appeared to be good on both sides.>>
Yes, backsides are usually a little weaker at this age because most of the value and training is on the front side (in terms of prioritizing, he really won’t need backsides skills any time soon :)) On the first part of the backside section, you recognized that the default to taking the jump was not yet in place and then you did a great job with the early placement of reward – that really helped him come in and take the jump! My only suggestion on those early toy drops (or any toy drops for this) is to have the toy already in your dog side arm (the same side he is sent to the backside with) and then that is the arm that drops the toy back: it will give you the physical look of the arm back serp posture that we use on those, rather than the cross arm (which we don’t use anymore on the serps). I think he did better on the backsides on the left turn side (starting on your right arm) than on the right turn side, but that might have been because you had already rewarded a bunch on the right turn side.
>>His rear crosses are basically non existing. I think I need to break these down some more and focus on these. He really does not understand them and that’s because we really haven’t spent much time on them at all.>>
He did really well! I have more rear cross work coming up soon. The handling is a little tricky, because you will want to run with pressure on the line without pushing him to the backside (which happened a couple of times) and also, try not to ‘pull’ your upper body to the front of the jump: that can set the line to the wrap side rather than the rear cross side. I like to think of my entire body (feet and shoulders) moving to the center of the bar – and then I cut in behind the dog when he is pretty close to the bar, within a couple of feet. It is the pressure line that creates the RC, not cutting in behind him – so on the reps where he ended up on the backside, your running line was cutting in to the new side before he had a chance to commit or get past you. Going to the new side on a rear cross will actually feel kinda late, a little last minute – because it doesn’t happen til he has made the adjustment just before takeoff, if that makes sense.
>>Next time I’d like to start with rear crosses and also add some backside wraps.
You can start with general RCs without the wraps, that will make it easier to get commitment because you don’t also need to cue collection. And yes you can totally add in backside wraps here – don’t do too many because they are the hardest thing on the dog’s body, so you can throw in a couple to reward the countermotion of you moving forward while he turns back to commit to the jump.
Great job!
Tracy
