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Good morning!
No worries about the complaints of the 13 year old – our oldsters are allowed to complain LOL!Lots of great stuff here, he is so fun to watch!
With toys, we all talk more – so 2 thoughts: be as crisp with making the markers distinct as you are with the food.. add feel free to add more talking to the food play so it is more like toy play 🙂 It is a fine balance, right? We want to build in a conditioned response to talking to him, but we don’t want to get muddy. I try to to use my ramp up words (“ready” is my favorite too :)) then be quiet, do the thing – then when the dog is interacting with the food or toys, I praise and talk. Then after the reset ready – I try to be quiet. Note the use of “try” LOL! Thankfully dogs are GREAT at figuring us out 🙂Looking at the bite-the-toy tug cue: because you mentioned that he sometimes will get flesh and not just toy, we can play around a little here. Using the nice long toy you had, you can wait for him to focus on the part of the toy you ant him to grab, then say the cue (he already has a strong focus forward behavior happening and that will create a nice bit of feedback for you both: you’ll know where he is likely to grab, and he will figure out that if he is looking at the part closer to your hand, you are not going to give the cue: I bet the then changes where he is focusing because he seems super smart). And focus forward is a concept, and he is a concept type of fellow 🙂
When they goes well, you can make it into a bit of a discrimination: the grab part of the toy can get closer to your flesh and you can use the focus forward to help him figure out where to put his teeth.
I would start that in the relative calmness of sitting on the couch or something 🙂
Then, add speed: back to the long toy, get him more ramped up, then try it. And I like to also do this ‘but’ game with a toy in each hand: bite the first one, then out then bite the 2nd one in the other hand. That helps him learn to make the decision on where to grab more quickly and in more ‘real life’ settings.
The Catch looks good – fun! And he was definitely happy to chase. He is not as quick to bring it back – he goes from a run to get it down to a walk/trot on the way back. That might be partially a product of being indoors, or partially a reflection on the value of bringing it back when you are not moving. You can play some games to build the procedures up here:
You can do a catch or chase then as soon as he gets his mouth on it, you run away and when he gets the toy near you: the drop it as you are moving (this is harder, you might have to stand still when he gets to you) then using another toy, a chase the new direction. Wheeee! Then we fade your running out so he drives back, because driving back has a ton of value.Also, even when you are going to throw it again, try not to immediately take the toy away when he arrives back at you – that short time between the taking the toy and the throw or cookie might be a bit of a negative punishment (“I bring toy, toy goes away”) so you can tug for a bit when he arrives back at you – the drop it then tug again with the toy he just dropped (or cue engagement with another toy). Or, have the cookie ready so before you even pick up the toy he has dropped or move it away, the cookie is already in play, if that makes sense.
I also let the dogs win the toy a lot, to strengthen the bring-it-back-fast: when the toys get back to me, I play for a few second, and then don’t ask for the out. Instead, I give a victory lap cue (I say “go for a run” which is not very creative LOL!) so the dog can run around with it for a bit 🙂 It might sound counterintuitive but it really strengthens the drive back to me and also that cue is great for when training sessions are hard and the dog needs to clear his head.
Going to the dead toy – you had mentioned wanting to get more drive to this too, if I am remembering correctly. His focus forward is looking great! So, split the behavior a bit more and release sooner so he doesn’t look back at you . He is completely engaged in those first seconds but then looks back at you, and you can see the excitement relaxing a bit more than we want right now. So you can start with practically instant releases then ping pong some duration into it to maintain the drive to it. Eventually we will get it going with longer duration but for now, let the toy marker come very quickly so he can barely contain his joy at grabbing the dead toy 🙂 Also, have you ever played toy races with him? It is not a reinforcement procedure, per se, but it builds the love of driving to a dead toy 🙂 Let me know – I can dig up some videos 🙂
One last thought: Hand up and hand down might be too similar because the first part of the cue is identical – thinking about latency, he is going to have to wait for the second part of the cue so things might take longer. He will of course read context and your hand position, but for ultra clarity, I would consider dropping the hand from one of the cues so ‘hand’ only has one potential meaning and he can start the response instantly.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>So–leaving out the fact that I have atrocious aim on my throws–my idea of catch would be the same as yours. But I also purposely throw very far behind at times because I don’t want there always to be a visible cue on the ground behind the dog since won’t have one in the ring. Not to mention setting up the signal exercise so that there is always something behind my dog no matter where I make the turn would require way too much pre planning for me LOL So I’m thinking differentiating Catch with a word meaning it’s going way behind you so turn away from me to get what I throw might be useful? Don’t want them coming forward on a catch for those exercises….Thoughts??? >>
two ideas for you!
I use the turn back cue as part of the remote reinforcement process, so in that situation it is OK to let the dog see where you left the reinforcement outside the ring.
Separately, for the catch, yes – you can totally throw it waaaay back 🙂 The dogs do not come forward on the catch cues even if your throws are not great: as long as the throw is towards their mouths or behind them, they find it VERY efficient to stay there and wait for it (or turn back for it). My smallest pup lifts her head and looks up at the sky slightly behind her what I say catch – it is a reflection on where my throws are LOL! But… so stays where she is and does not come forward 🙂let me know if that makes sense!
TracyGood morning!
Your words make me laugh, and that is good – aye aye aye and yum yum and great choices! LOL!
>>I learned today that my puppy, unlike every other Lab I’ve ever had, will refuse to eat a piece of cheese that has significant dirt sticking to it. Fascinating! I edited out a few I learned today that my puppy, unlike every other Lab I’ve ever had, will refuse to eat a piece of cheese that has significant dirt sticking to it. Fascinating! I edited out a few minutes of him analyzing cheese and deciding not to eat it when it was too dirty — about 3 reps.>>
Are you sure he is a Lab and not a sighthound? Maybe a new sport mix? LOL! But it is good info – that way we can be sure, for now, we don’t use something kinda sticky in dirt or grass because it interrupts the training session (or toss it in a lotus ball) and separately, we teach him the joys of snarfing dirty treats off the ground 🙂 You can start with cheerios which have a nice history to them already: if he grabs it off the dirt, he can get rewarded with cheese fro your hand. I have found that doing this as a group helps too, because if a brother is going to eat the cookie while he is thinking it over, he is going to be more likely to just eat the cookie 🙂 And we really need him to eat it fast, for the sake of training efficiency.
>>I’m loving his engagement, which has been present from the beginning.
He is a super good boy!!! It is hard to remember that he is so young 🙂
>>My clicker timing, however, was all over the place. Eventually, I stopped clicking because I felt my timing was too muddy to help.
Yes, the clicker timing did get a little muddy. You don’t need to click all of these – I use it in the get it procedure to partially add in engagement quickly after getting the tossed treat, and also so we can sort out our mechanics (or grow a third arm :)) So when you play with the get it, continue with the clicker and isolate the mechanics:
start with cookies ready and your hands stationary in a neutral position (like on behind your back like you did here, or on your stomach because it is a little quicker and helps him learn to ignore the treats)
Say get it then wait a heartbeat then toss the treat
click
get it
toss
(all separated by a heartbeat – be extra obsessed that you don’t click or say get it or toss simultaneously. This is REALLY hard, I know! It will also feel slow at first, but that creates super clean mechanics. We all want to do all the things simultaneously but that gets muddy :))When you were working the ‘get it’, your click and get it were a little too simultaneous, so try to separate them. Your get it and hand movement were generally separate, and that is great!
Yes! You were really focusing on the distinct mechanics and that is so critical! You can add in some praise after he is eating the cookie – inserting it after the treat delivery and before the click or next marker. It might be easier with toys! We are going to add in praise because that is a useful marker as long as it doesn’t take over all the other markers LOL! You did add in a good boy after the yum yum at about :54 while he was eating, and that is perfect 🙂
Looking at the yum yum versus aye aye aye: I think the markers were more about location than movement of the cookie at first: the yum yum was consistently in front of your knees. And the aye aye aye was consistently off to the side – moving a little at the beginning and a lot by the end. And that is fine, as long as you remember where your yum yum position should be (that is a sentence I never thought I would write haha). And yum yum can also be off to the side, so remember to show him the difference 🙂
Great job here! I am looking forward to seeing how he does with the toys and combos!
Safe travels today!!
Tracy
That’s a fun idea about the different surfaces! It makes sense that she would not feel as comfy doing a 2o2o in sand!
TracyGood morning!
>> above. I worked on the initial Reward worksheet (which I assume is for our own info and you don’t really want to see it)
You can totally post it, it is great for planning purposes 🙂
The threadle session went really well. She was VERY responsive to the threadle cue! I think she did best when you said it right before takeoff on the very last rep, in terms of timing and being ready for the threadle. Normally we would want to cue a turn on the turn jump but she didn’t really seem to need it here, and she also had no questions about the balance. Nice! Now, you might need to cue that turn instead of saying over when the bars are higher or there is even more speed, or when you go to the harder flat threadle setup. But she didn’t need it here! We will keep an eye on it and see what she says. It was smart to let it simmer 🙂
You can move the tunnel if you want more running room 🙂 the tunnel didn’t seem to be in the way here and your position was good, but moving it can give you more room to add motion, which of course adds challenge 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>Do you use a different marker for catch versus a toss of food purposely behind the dog (thinking I often reinforce back for a drop on recall or moving stand) or reinforcement placed behind the dog (as in the stays sometimes or again the moving stand)?>>
yes – tossed versus pre-placed are two different markers 🙂 Catch is only for tossed (dog should remain looking forward) and ideally is is sorta behind the dog (my aim is not always great) and ‘behind’ is for the thing I left on the ground behind the dog 🙂 o the dog should turn around. On a catch the dog lifts upwards but does not turn around unless my throw is really atrociou.
>>Warned you it would be obedience heavy LOL>>
I love it! Perfect!
TracyHi!
yes, hello from Georgia, heading into FL tomorrow!>>What do you give your dogs for their small meals during the competitive day?
I give them a small meal of their regular food (although the Papillon had part of a grilled cheese sandwich at the flyball tournament for lunch on Sunday LOL!!) and it seems to help them mentally 🙂
PS – Facebook ate my profile, so I had to start over 🙁 Please come friend me 🙂
TracyHi!
The layering went REALLY well! And I think she liked it!
Was the stop at :25 because the bar was down? Try to give her a better setup, that was a little close to the jump get a good takeoff while you started running.
:She had trouble getting the right turn and not the tunnel – at :47, I think she was on autopilot after a few layering reps, so you can balance sooner.
Also, to handle the turn – give the verbal basically when you gave it at :46 but also add in more handling to help: turn your shoulders sooner but also support the line – she might need a brake arm, because when you turned your shoulders too much she didn’t take the red jump, or threadled the 2 jumps on the last rep 🙂It sounds like she got it right at :52 but it might have been edited it out of the video by accident, or YouTube is being glitchy?
So I think that brake arm might make it easiest for her to get the jump AND turn – forward, no brake arm, tunnel verbals means go go go and the slight turn plus brake arm can be useful for the discimrination turn in front of the tunnel. Let me know if that makes sense!
Nice work here!PS – my Facebook account got eaten by Facebook, so if you see a new friend request, it really is me 🙂
TracyHi! Great list here!
he is definitely a foodie, so we can incorporate that for sure! Question about the interacting with people: do you have a cue on it, such as ‘say hi!’ so he knows when to go visit them?
And have you ever tried attaching the food stuffed toy to the flirt pole? We can get creative 🙂
Onwards to the foundation games! We will have fun incorporating them!
TracyHi!
>>The random times I offer him to go say hi he’s wiggly, happy but then quickly loses interest in the person and wants to chase a bug, watch ducks or something more entertaining.>>
So at best, the visiting of people is of relatively low value in the hierarchy at the moment.
>>He likes other dogs but can be a bit much for them these days now that he’s big and a teenager. He’s used to very rough and rowdy play with our Swissy and that tends to not be great in the settings we end up in. He also had a weird period of dog reactivity about 2 weeks ago while we were at dog camp so we’re working back up to where he was before that (prior to that he hadn’t really shown anything like that) and we’re aiming more for dogs are interesting but not a threat and don’t anticipate that I’ll be asking you to interact with them.>>>
I think at some point when he is adult, that he will probably end up with a group of buddies, such as dogs that he sees as training partners, teammates, etc. And that way he might eventually have a big romp with his buddies as an available reinforcement. At this point, especially as a teenager, I like that you are more focused on “dogs are interesting but not too interesting” 🙂
>>1. I’m a behavior nerd,
Yay! I love this!
>>2. He really likes clarity.
Yay to this too! And more importantly, you recognize the importance of clarity. That is so critical!
>> He doesn’t get fussy or not participate in training but did used to show some confusion when the reinforcer I was delivering or how I was delivering it weren’t what he expected. So, I’ve just added more over time to be super clear. He’s big into concepts so I try to use that to our advantage wherever I can.>>
OMG I feel like we are on similar paths – my young dogs are VERY big into concepts too. And I have also added more markers – as needed, because I don’t want to drive myself nuts wit markers on top of the 35 verbal directionals for agility 🙂 but I like how we are all listening to feedback from the dogs and working more towards clarity.
He already has a ton of really good markers here! And you are consistent and reliable about matching the marker to the presentation (as opposed to saying one thing and delivering something different, so saying “get it” or “yes” for all the things LOL!) as you know, the consistency is the hardest part of us humans!
And it took me a moment to realize that heads & tails were links and that is so funny! Perfect!
Since these are well underway and your are not in the introductory stage, a couple of ideas for you:
He is watching your hands a bit and also watching contextual cues. That makes perfect sense and many of our markers are contextual anyway. You are really good about the marker with the hands in ‘neutral’ position then presenting the cookie for most of them so for those markers (some of the markers rely on the hand in a position like over his head, or the hand cue for tails), you can take one more heartbeat before you present to see if he will look to the right place and not just at your hands.
For example, the heads cue is perfect for this- say heads, wait 2 heartbeats, then toss the treat. You will know if he is truly reading it if he lifts his head to catch it before your hand moves. Plus, it is cute when they do this (cute is important :)) I also build in slight delays for get it and for yes (when the dog is relatively far away, because hand movement tells him which hand).>>. Tails – turn to take reinforcer behind you (our least used one so I added a hand cue here)
Least used a the moment, but fabulous to have in your repertoire because it is GREAT for training in the ring at trials! For example, UKI allows us to bring toys in the ring for ALL runs, not just training runs. I always leave the toy with the leash, behind the dog – sometimes I give the ‘tails’ cue to get it, which makes for a great start line reinforcement – sometimes I release forward to run.
>>8. Follow cookie in hand – no verbal really just based on context and how I hold my hand – using pieces of kibble here as like a treat magnet>>
As we add more movement into the training (your movement :)) you might end up putting a word on when you want his eyes on the treat magnet versus when your cookie hand will be moving but you don’t want him following it.
I liked the combos you did here! He did really well, it seemed that he had no questions. So you can take it up a notch – play with discrimination combos, rather than complementing combos. For example, get it tossed treat with the dish out there too – the get it treat is tossed in the same relative direction as the dish versus sometimes the dish cue, so he discriminates which one is available (I would start with an empty dish out there first to make it a little easier, and you can toss the treat into the dish when he is heading to it). Or you are next to the dish, alternate the yes where he moves to you and the dish where he leaves you for it. Let me know if that makes sense, or if I need to re-write it after morning coffee 🙂
And depending on how he feels about toy play, incorporating toys really helps clarify food procedures too! And makes for some fun games back and forth between food and toys.
>> want to try to increase the value of the udder tugger since it’s such a nice multipurpose toy and easier to carry than his favorite, favorite hollee roller on braided fleece.
We can insert the udder tug into the procedures in coming weeks! I just did that with a tennis ball… by baby dog is also training in flyball and did not have any value for the tennis ball (oops, my fault!) so I built value very quickly by inserting it into existing procedures. Now the tennis ball is quite valuable!
>>P.S. He is a long-time and fierce thrasher, since he was a tiny puppy (like literally since he was less than 8 weeks old). I try to reinforce weight shift back and steady pull but the act of thrashing is quite enjoyable for him (less so for my shoulders and neck).
Yes, I feel this pain too – my 2 year old dog comes from a long line of thrashers , like we are deep sea fishing and pulling in a marlin or something. Lordy!!!! So I also inserted non-trash intro procedures – I will get video of that too (plus I use a lot of bungee toys for the residual thrash moments to protect my shoulders :))
And, because I like my fingers to not get bitten up, I also worked my ‘bite’ cue to have no flesh involvement (especially because bite is right up close to my hands!) That is all going on the list of things to do add to the coming games 🙂Great job here! Let the know what you think!
TracyHi there!
Yes, Cowboy is going to think this first set of cookie games is the EASIEST thing on the planet haha! That is fine, we don’t need every single thing to be challenging for the dogs LOL! He was great here, of course 🙂These all went well – Cookies where he is following the hand almost sounded like you were singing to him LOL! Love it!
the main point of feedback is to be hyper vigilant about your hand movement, being as stationary as possible (for now) until after you have said the cue. That will really empower the cue rather than keep him watching your hands for info.
When you did the get it procedure, you were moving your hand after the “yes” and before/during the get it, so try to keep your cookie toss hand completely still after after get it. If you toss after ‘yes’, then ‘yes’ becomes the marker and he will stop what he is going to get the treat on a ‘yes’ moment (ask me how I know this LOL! Oops!)Same with the Snack – move your hands after the word- you had the hand then the word here. It is SO HARD, I know 🙂 It gets easier as we add more things to it 🙂
Cookies and hand moving to follow work well together with the movement, so I think you can keep going with that. The start of the Catch was best about word-then-move-your-hand at the beginning! yay! There was a clearer separation of the word and motion. It got a little more simultaneous towards the end, but the beginning was definitely more of the word-then-cookie-presentation.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
This is a great list!!!The food list is impressive, I am filling out an application to be your dog haha! Yummy yummy!!!! And all of it is relatively high value.
The toy stuff is interesting!
Have you every tried attaching a frisbee to a tug toy? I do this for my 3 year old – I will get a picture. It has almost the same value as the frizz, but it is attached to a long toy so she can’t break herself chasing it too much.
>>super value in training, very low value in a trial environment outside the ring. High value though in the ring when I run FEO. Have not figured this out yet.
That is really interesting! And a good view f how the environment changes things. When you are FEO, are you able to move the toy more? Maybe there is more room so he is more comfy playing?
>> Also need to work on improving the out
We have some of that started this week! You’ll see it in the toy procedures and comob procedures – I know that technically the out is a cue, not a procedure, but toy play procedures are MUCH easier if we have a good out.
>>4 – bath mat – it’s his go relax and observe spot when waiting to run and then turns into a tug toy when I release him to get up -one of the things he will consistently tug with outside the ring>>
That is awesome! Reinforcement is in the eye of the reinforcee… and I like how the bath mat is both a relax spot and a toy LOL! Brilliant!
For the activities… I see a trend: Chase! That is good to know and we can play around with incorporating it.
>> been playing this a lot lately in training after a mistake I am also working on loosing my use of NRM’s. Cody hates making mistakes and I think the NRM’s have become a trigger to oh crap I screwed up and I’m out of here>>
Yes, I like that you are getting rid of NRMs. There is a lot of controversy about those – in general, I think the dogs perceive them as punishment markers (negative punishment, as in we are stopping and you are getting nothing LOL!). and so I can see why he doesn’t like them!
Nice start here with the lists! Onwards to the first set of games 🙂
TracyHi!
“Regardless of environment” is amazing!!! Environment is so powerful and having the hierarchy be stable is amazing!!
Safe drive to Jax! See you soon!
TracyHello and welcome! All 3 of your Eskies sound so fun!!!!
It sounds like we can totally help shift the value to driving ahead of you and also get Laci really confident. We can jump right in with the Hierarchies: they are all foodies, which is great! Also, check out the activity hierarchy. And one more question: do they like remote feeders like a Manners Minder or Pet Tutor? Lots of fun stuff ahead!
TracyGood morning!
It makes total sense! He is a wee puppy, still. My guess is that we don’t have a full picture of WM yet either, still a teenager. And due to the pandemic, you probably don’t have a full picture of Phyzz in new places. Hot Sauce is 3 and there was a shift in her hierarchy last weekend. So, it is ever-shifting and we just keep track of it 🙂
I do love that you’ve established a Chill The F Out routine and in doing so, raised the are ofow value reinforcement. Pairing, for the win! Brilliant!!! When do you leave for Florida?
Tracy
