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Hi!
Yes, you can hear the dammit from all of us at the end of that run!
>>But, the back and forth behind me lining up isn’t new. She definitely likes to do that. It’s like her pre run routine. >>
ah, it is her shtick! All dogs have a pre-run quirk. It is better than one of my dogs who had to put dirt on his head LOL! A bit of a decompression/pressure release perhaps? That is fine and yes you can interrupt it after a couple of seconds with a hand to stop the movement and then set her up.
T
Hi! Fantastic question… the answer is “it depends” 😁🤣
It depends on the dog you are running.
For example, I don’t think I need to *ever* use it with my Elektra, who is always very very tight on her turns and always looks for me on tunnel exits. I work to get more extension from her on course.
The opposite is true for my Hot Sauce… she goes forward at 10,000 mph all the time, so I use the brake arms in all the places you mentioned 🙂
Interestingly, those girlies are about the same size (15 inches tall, give or take).
And my other dogs are in between – my Voodoo needs it on tunnel exits and wraps (front and back) but not on 180s. And my Contraband needs the brake on 180s but not backside wraps or front side wraps. My young Whippet, Ramen, needs it on 180s when he is turning to his left. Very specific use LOL!
I figured this all out with some experimenting and video watching (then I had to write it down because remembering it is a whole other issue LOL!!)
So – thinking of Turbo and Topper: where are they naturally tight? Where are they naturally wider? Do they have trouble keeping bars up in certain contexts? That is the starting point for figuring it all out 🙂
Tracy
Awesome! The lazy game and the one step send games will also help get the commitment going. Have fun!
Tracy
Hi!
>> I started out low & have been adding height. During tonight’s session I raised the teeter itself by one chain link. Are you supposed to leave the teeter at full height & start at full height?>>
There are a coouple of different ways to do it – and since he seems super confident on the teeter, I would NOT change what you are doing! Looking great!! The teeter can gradually come up to full height this way, while maintaining his love for driving to the end. The next step that you can add is to have the reward already placed on the target. I found that with the flat target, a treat would bounce off but a dab of cream cheese worked perfectly so he could drive to it and lick it. That way you can add independence (moving past the end of the board, lateral motion, rear crosses, etc) and he will focus on the end of the board (then you can go back to him, reward MORE 🙂 , and help him off).
He was also super happy back and forth on the plank – nice job with the towels for the thrown treats – he was fast and looking straight!! He was figuring out to get on the plank from the angles – if you were not connected, he might have thought you did not want him on it so he followed you. So you can totally use connection to help him commit to the plank.
The next step would be to raise the plank a bit, with low blocks or bricks under it so he practices working across it with more elevation. He looks ready for it!!
Great job here!
TracyHi!
He was great here! I believe his slight hesitation in the middle of the board was *not* because the board or height was worrying him. I think he was making sure you (and the cookie) were coming LOL! And yes, blocking it off is a good idea for when you are not training LOL!The next thing to sort out is having the reward already placed at the end of the board so he can leave you in the dust and drive to the top. Have you thought about whether you want to do a 2o2o or a 4on with him? He is right on the cusp, in terms of size. How much does he weigh?
We can attach as target/food holder to the underside at the top of the teeter with some duct tape and a spoon 🙂 Have the spoon extend far enough away that he has to get his front feet to the end of the board in order to get the treat. And you can bend the angle of the spoon so he has to reach down and bend his elbows a little to get the reward, but not really have to crane his neck downwards.
Then, let him see you put a dab of cream cheese in the spoon… then let him run up the board to go lick it. That will add more independence and you can add more handling too!
Nice work here 🙂 Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi! Welcome back!!!
>>I have a question about the mountain climber game. I have always trained my dogs with the two table method but I can see where this would be beneficial in addition to that. >>
I also use two tables games – there are a lot games that we love to play with the teeter!
>>But I’m a little nervous because Reveille is a 11 month old crazy lab! I’m afraid he will just launch off the end! How do I prevent this?>>
You can try it by lowering the teeter to maybe half-height. It will be propped up like it is in the mountain climber game, but it will be safer on his body if he takes a flying leap and also a little easier for you to control the game. At half height, have him go up the board eating a cookie for each step. Then you can show him that you have placed a reward at the top (like a streak of cream cheese or something fabulous to lick) so he can go to the top but has a ton of incentive to stop there and not fly off. Then you can help him turn around and come back down the board to dismount.
When he understands the shape of the game, you can start to raise the teeter back to full height. Let me know if that makes sense!
Tracy
Hi! Thanks for the video, it is insightful!
I think the value of the toy is not strong enough to override the value of you moving away. Two ideas:
You can add moving away before she gets to the toy, but move very very slowly.Or, you can use food! Throw a giant treat and send her to it like you did with the toy, and move away before she gets there 🙂 Commitment doesn’t have to be trained with a toy retrieve – it can simply be trained as ‘go there and do a thing while I go the other way’ so the thing can be eating a cookie! I think she really likes food, yes?
Keep me posted!
Tracy
I just made all of my dogs bark by yelling “OH DAMMIT!” at the end of your run LOL!!! SUCH A GREAT RUN!!!
I think the brake arms and RC were actually good, she was looking right at the correct jump til you called her hard… then she looked at you and came off the jump. Bummer! So we will definitely practice using a ‘jump’ verbal after RCs rather than calling her, we have RCs in the sequences coming up.
It was overall a good save, and a bit more trial experience will get that ending in what will be a winning run. Frustrating for now, I am sure, but the future is very exciting!!! Your connection and hustle looks great and she is really fast and focused on course!
>>She was definitely distracted going in. There are 4 rings at this trial and a practice ring. USDAA on one side and AKC on the other.>>
Is that what she was looking at to her left, when you were lining her up? Something was very interesting (and plus there was all sorts of pressure behind her and to her right – why do leash runners gotta be stalkers? LOL!!). I think she did really well considering it is her first time at a 4 ring circus. Yes, the line up took a moment but once she was lined up, she was completely on task and wonderful.
Great job 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
>>Standards are going to have to wait for now…it is just too hot to be outside more than a few minutes at a time.>>
Yeah, I have a feeling it is going to be a crazy weather summer so I will probably extend the date to end the class, so everyone can get the training in whenever the weather decides to behave itself.
>>Last weekend we did AKC at Danville. All 3 of her starts on Saturday were tunnels where I needed to start lateral and behind her…just the startline that she wasn’t comfortable with and we needed to practice. The tunnel was very helpful as the starting obstacle because she wasn’t at all confused and drove very nicely and let me get my distance.>>
Yes! What a tremendous advantage for you to be able to get distance on the lines… she is fast so it helps so much to get you to the next position on course! Yay!!
>>As far as conditioning, we do some core stuff like puppy pushups and prairie dogs (begging stance), but I’ll admit I don’t have a clear and defined program. Can’t wait to learn more from our special instructor.>>
I am not a conditioning expert, but I think all sports dogs should be evaluated by a sports vet/ conditioning expert then get some exercises specific to their needs. Fortunately, there are great people out there to see in person and online!!! Just a little bit of targeted conditioning work can make a massive difference in jumping – try to do cardio and strength training for the dogs mixed into the week (they wish I would do some cardio and strength for myself too hahaha)
>>For jumping, I do use Susan Salo’s book and set up jump grids and work those (probably not as much as we should) between other courses and practices.>>
These are helpful, even if they are not that regular! When you do grids she is familiar with, try to add in your motion and more excitement, so she learns the jumping skills in a context that she will need them with you running 🙂
On the video:
She is doing really well finding that first jump with you more and more lateral! You can add a hand cue to see if she will look forward – that hand cue (moving a hand forward to point to the jump) can tell her exactly when to look at it, and you might even be able to add a verbal to it too!
Looking at the runs:
You can tighten the turn 3-4 by adding more exit line connection at :13 and 1:28 (super direct eye contact back to her as you run forward).
Nice job on the FC at 5, push to 6 and send to layering!Bar on layering 8 at :21 – you took off and ran without connection. Compare to 1:37 – you were miles ahead but connected more and she got it nicely!
The turn at 10-11 looked great on the first run! I think you were too early on the tunnel cue at 1:40 (she had not yet turned) so the bar came down there.
Very nice flip and layering to the weaves!
>>Is there another way to handle the jump to the weaves? I like how this worked and she let me layer the jump, but it is a weird feeling to me to actually be waiting on the dog, so I thought maybe I should be doing it a different way.>>
On this course, you probably don’t need the layering because you did have to wait for a bit. But it is an important skill to teach (especially for a dog that does ASCA gambles 😁). So you can do it without layering. You can also send to the tunnel entry from closer to the tunnel exit, then run to the takeoff side of the jump and threadle it rather than push to the backside.
>>We still struggled with the layering from 14 to 17, but I don’t think my cues are good. I think I need to be clearer. >>
On the first 2 times through there, you were turning a little too soon (:41) and disconnected a bit (1:58) so that pulled her off the line.
Holy wow you nailed it at 2:30!!! And again on the last rep!! You were more accelerated and forward-facing, and VERY BIG LOUD VERBALS given pretty directly to her… she seemed to have no questions! Yay! You can totally work layering lines and throw rewards out into them, so she gets even more confidence on those type of lines and then you won’t have to work as hard to get them 🙂
The layering set up a gorgeous ending line there too, both times 🙂Great job! Stay cool!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>I think about your training in 3 to 5 minutes advice all the time (because it makes me crazy). >>
LOL! I am glad it is thought-provoking 🙂
>>How would you be effective in only 3 minutes?
I think two things make the 3-5 minutes very effective:
– The plan! I spend time planning before bringing the dog out. I plan not just my handling (timing, connection, and those darned words LOL!), but also the placement of reinforcement. Placement of reinforcement is such a huge key to fast learning that if I am training a skill, the reward placement is well-planned. While I do leave the toy outside the ring sometimes in order to train the dog to be able to run sequences with a toy outside the ring, I rarely do it when training skills or short sequences because it is incredibly inefficient in terms of placement of reinforcement, and also eats up the dog’s legs sending him to it and eats up the brain bandwidth because he has to ignore it AND pay attention to my cues too – expensive! (see below about fatigue).
And a decent plan allows me to keep the rate of success pretty high, which also makes for good outcomes and prevents frustration or over-arousal from getting built into the sport.
The 2 failure rule is VERY easy to maintain in a 5 minute session as opposed to a 15 minute session. That way I make bigger strides towards my goal even if I don’t get the full result in one session.
And part of the plan is that I might not fully accomplish my plan 😁 because the dog might need something different or a break or I need to re-think my plan, or I just need to let it go and let the science take over:
– Trusting the science I’ve learned about, in terms of processing, latent learning, and fatigue. Mainly, that means I might not see the finish product or desired end result in that 3 to 5 minute session… and that is perfectly fine! Latent learning is amazing: I let the dog sleep on it for a night or two and then BOOM it is there when I go back to it. Magical (but not really magic, it is the science of how neurons wire learning into long term memory).
For example, I was working a sequence skill with my young whippet a couple of weeks ago and he was simply not finding a jump after the tunnel. I tried a few different ways to show it to him, had a little success (but definitely not the end result). After 5 minutes, I ended the session and that was it for the day. Went back to it the following morning, and the skill was there, exactly how I wanted it to be, as if he had been doing it for years. This is not an isolated thing – I see it over and over in all types of dogs 🙂
Also, I keep fatigue in mind: yes, muscle fatigue is always something to consider, but fit dogs can be in motion for more than 5 minutes, but that doesn’t mean the jumping mechanics will be strong that whole time.
>>He drops a lot of bars but I think that is more mental than physical – when he is confident in what’s happening, the bars tend to stay up.>>
I am sure confidence and understanding is part of it! But also, physical fatigue was part of it (you can really see it after 3:52 – bars down there and multiple after that including not using his rear at all at 4:00 and trying to hoist himself over the bar. He was adding shorter, slower strides and his rear was fit-tailing a bit… all signs of fatigue.
And, brain fatigue is a bigger issue particularly for younger dogs and/or harder/newer behaviors: these agility behaviors are ‘expensive’ on that brain in terms of the oxygen and glucose that gets burned up. That is what fuels the brain, so if I burn that fuel then the body might keep moving, but the brain will not be learning or processing the way I want it to. Training more is not the answer – recovery is the answer to that. And results are very very quick, which is very reinforcing to me because I am a strange combination of a little lazy and also having 5 dogs to train LOL!!!
With all that in mind, onwards to the video!
Seq 1:
The big lines before the backside/threadle stuff are looking good in general. He does pull some rails and I think it is mainly because he is looking at you too much.Part of that is cues can be sooner –
For example, you can tell him to exit the tunnel straight and jump before he enters the tunnel so he doesn’t look at you at the exit for more info.Also, I don’t think you have time to praise him on course when you are going to keep going – it causes him to look at you and then he doesn’t have time to look back at the bar and keep it up. An example of that is at :13, where you said ‘good boy’ (he looked at you) then cued the jump – so he tried to organize for liftoff but couldn’t quite get it done in time and dropped the bar.
You can also use placement of reward here to get him looking at the bars more and at you less: rather than use a ‘yes’ and have him come to hand for a reward, you can use a ‘get it’ marker and throw a reward on the line. That can efficiently help him learn to look forward on the line and keep looking forward even if cues are late.
On the threadle wraps: he is figuring that out nicely! Try to keep your feet facing forward and not moving towards the slice line at all – the cue is mainly upper body (hands and connection) so the collection cues are stronger when your feet do not turn to the jump (looks like a bit of a slice cue, so he jumped wider over the bar.
This is a place that placement of reward can really help too! Drop the reward behind you on the landing side of the jump for the threadle wraps – that allows him to associate the cues with where he is going, and he will really begin to independently set up the collection. You can also do. The same emphasis on placement for the threadle slices: use a marker like get it and throw the reward back to the landing area of the slice line. That can really solidify the behavior and helps with the jumping too, because he will not be watching you as much.
Threadle slices are also looking good – note the positional difference at 1:04 where he got it nicely (threadle slice position) versus 1:09 where you were more in a serp position on jump 1, and moved Serp-like to jump 2 so he took the front side. You rotated to help him after that, but he night not have needed that – the position is what he reads really well!
Building speed into the bigger sequences and the backsides:
This is where you can play with earlier timing on the jump before the backside push. He needed a turn cue on the jump before the backside or he ended up going straight (especially with the tunnel looking 🙂 The turn cues worked best when you gave them no later than landing of the jump before the turn jump (like a 1:39) which set him up well for the backside. If you called him while he was in the air on the turn jump before the backside, the bar would come down as he tried to adjust.
The slight angle difference when he was on your left to the backside did require a backside cue – the ‘come’ or ‘here’ cues are things he might also get for a front side, so he took the front side there (like at 2:22). The backside verbal really helped!!
Speaking of backside pushes: you can use placement of reward on the landing side as you move through so you don’t have to cue the push to the backside AND taking the bar. As he is committing to going to the backside, you can be throwing a reward to the landing side as you move forward – that way he enters the backside looking for the bar and not at you. The rewards were from your hand, so he was looking at you – and you had to give an additional cue to indicate he should take the bar on the backside… which makes it harder to get to the next position.
You got some fallout from physical and mental fatigue once you got past the 2:25 mark in the video:
When working that backside line, there was physical/mental fatigue (jumping into the wing, for example) at 2:31, plus he wasn’t getting the around to the backside, then rate of success drops, then you get mad (2:46), he slows down, you alter the cue by rotating then stepping into him (which presents a different picture then what he was asking questions about….
In the time frame from about 2:25 to 3:50, he had something like 26 reps and approximately 55% rate of success (yes, I counted – failures included times he hit the bar, went to the wrong side of the jump, didn’t get rewarded and successes where when he went to the correct side of the bar and/or got rewarded even if it was not correct) That is lower than I prefer to work the dogs (I’d say 80% success is the lowest I like to go – anything lower than that is when we start to see frustration behaviors creep in). After he had some success there, you did more and that is where we saw the fatigue behaviors where he was not moving the same way or sorting his mechanics the same.
So for your next session, try 5 minutes total for the day and keep an eye on the number of failures – it will feel weird for sure! But I bet you will see exponential leaps forward (pun intended!)
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning! I am glad things are going well at home – his stay here looked happy 🙂
He is doing really well with the forward focus!!! You might consider adding a hand cue (slow, low point to the jump). You had a foot step forward and you had very direct eye contact… but those are subtle and in a harder/busier environment, he might miss them. Plus, the hand cue tells him exactly when to look at the jump and takes some of the pressure off of the eye contact.
The sequence went really well after you released to jump 1 – the line to the tunnel was super easy for you both. The blind to the jump and *not* the tunnel was perfection! Well-timed, great connection… he was able to set up gorgeous lines without having to drop off any speed. YAY!!
Great job here!!!
Tracy
Good morning! Welcome back to you and the corgs!!!
>>I think getting the timing will be challenging.
Yes, but also because we have threadle cues, we don’t have to be as concerned with perfect timing (no one has ever accused me of perfect timing LOL!!!)
>>The first one is: You state that when approaching on the landing side, (slice or wrap) push to the backside, then do you immediately do a blind cross (timing is tricky) to get to your position for the next part of the course?>>I might be a little under caffeinated, so let me know if I am misunderstanding 🙂
For the landing side backsides on slices or wraps, the timing depends on what the next line is:
– if you remain on the landing side and head back in the general direction you came from, the timing of starting the blind is as soon as the dog is ‘committed’ to the backside. The commitment is generally an invisible line that is a 45 degree angle between the foot of the jump and the plane of the wing: when the dog hits that line they are committed (yes, it is before they arrive at the wing and definitely before they arrive on the backside of the jump).– if you have a countermotion exit like a German turn or a reverse wrap/full circle, the timing of the blind is actually a little later! For the slices (German turns), I do the blind as I am passing the exit wing – this of course relies on pretty independent commitment. And the same is true for the circle wraps: I move forward as soon as the dog has passed me, and the reconnection from the blind happens when I have passed the wing. If the dog has good independent commitment, you can turn your head forward and begin the blind pretty much as soon as you think they are committed to going to the backside, but the reconnection happens after you pass the wing.
>>The second one is: You state that approaching on the takeoff side, you would need to do your blind beforehand, then a threadle to get the slice or wrap then move on down the course?>>
Yes – we used to start our blinds REALLY late (in my opinion and in the opinion of the dogs LOL!) by starting the blind when. The dog was committed to coming to the backside. We didn’t need a threadle for that… because the turns were so wide LOL!!! So now we start the blind a lot sooner (as they are in the air over the previous jump, approximately) and use a threadle to “seal the deal” if there is *any* choice if which side visible to the dog when they land from the blind.
Plus, course design has evolved a lot and we are seeing these blind-to-threadle lines. The dogs are recognizing them well after a bit of training.
Have fun! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>For the warm up sequences Mookie needed a threadle arm plus “in in in” verbal cue to go from 1 to 2 correctly at first as he was very impulsive today :).
And, if you set the sequence the same way as I set it, it was indeed a threadle so the in in cue was needed.
>> Break arms worked beautifully for Mookie out of the tunnel for both sequences. Alonso was perfect for 2 runs in a row and understood my “in in in” verbal well. The break arms worked nicely to turn Alonso tighter
SUPER! So now we apply those brake arms to bigger courses, to see where they are needed and where they are not needed.

>> Buddy could not get 1 to 2 without a huge threadle Feet face dog with a cookie

Buddy has never threadled well but I have not really practiced with him. >>Yes, probably lack of experience with threadles because you have put a lot of value into ‘get on a line and go!’
>>Buddy did well with the backsides and the backside circle wrap. All three dogs went to the backside of 6 without a question. Tunnel Exit: Both Mookie and Alonso were perfect X 2. For seq 1 all 3 dogs turned nicely 5 to 6. Seq 2 Mookie wanted fly by me 1 to 2 and I really had to use hard break arms to get the backside circle blind to 3. Alonso my only Max pup graduate nailed seq 2. >>
Great! This gives you good info about what helps each dog – they are all lightly different, so figuring this out can help you in the long term as you switch back and forth between them.
>>However, I am seeing that Alonso really needs Break arms both in and out of tunnels but especially at the first jump or he could knock the first bar. He wants to go fast immediately at the start and the break arms get him to collect to not crash or knock the bar of the first jump. This was a great exercise in learning your dogs.>>
That is pretty normal for a lot of young dogs: GO FAST!! GO FAST!! And that is great – the brake arms will get the turns and keep you moving.
>>And I did let Alonso start a run when he held a stand stay and he nailed the run. That was great advice to start the trial with a down stay and then do the second run with a stand stay. I will try this next trial which is at the end of AugustPerfect! The most important thing is to keep the start line stress-free, so it is fine to let him stand if that is what works better 🙂
Thanks for the update! The boys are doing great!!
Tracy
No worries! I figure we will spend the summer dodging the heat, so the end date will get pushed back and back as we see heat, hurricanes, etc, worse than ever. Do what you can but there is plenty of time to catch up.
Hi!
Toy races for forward focus are great, and I am glad she loves the toy! The next application of this game would be to have you moving 🙂 She is good at it with you stationary but my guess is that might change when you are walking or running.>>Tarot also likes to chase me (very velcro) instead of focusing on the next obstacle so if I try to leave, I will pull her off the obstacle because her commitment is not that strong (focus forward again, countermotion?)>>
For now, put all the bars back down low (you will get better commitment if the jumping effort is easy) and reward everything out on the line… no rewards from your hands in agility 🙂 That plus the training games will start to get a lot of value on the lines!
Tracy
