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It is really interesting!! There is a high percentage of dogs that turn the same way their tail goes. We have to take out the answers from all the people who have dogs that do not have the curled-over tail set LOL!!!
Good morning!
>He tends to be very focused and serious when we train so it’s still hard to get him to go from “work” to toy play, but getting better.>
This is such a good thing to balance in these early stages, because it is definitely easy for pups (herding breeds in particular) to get very locked into the reward value of ‘work’ and not switch to play or other rewards easily. Your efforts here are definitely going to pay off!!
>We’re still working on fluent arousal mobility.>
Yes, it is great to be playing with that too! Trying to install it at every level of brain development is also going to pay off in sooooo many ways: regulation, resilience, improved access to what he has learned when he is aroused, and more.
Looking at the video:
Oooh that big new toy is COOL! So much great stuff here! His value for the prop is exactly where we want it, which will let you build up even more fun variations to add to a jump in the future 🙂 And he was adding distance by sliding it further away on the countermotion game LOL!He was definitely switching from toy to work to toy nicely. One thing to start adding now is a clearer bit of info about when that switch should happen. What I mean by that is proximity to or availability of the work is not the cue, but rather than progression of toy out on cue then wait for cue from da momma to do the work thing.
Two examples of what I mean: Lovely toy play at the beginning! When the prop went in at :17 ish it was a little unclear about whether the tugging was going to continue or he should go to the prop. He stopped tugging but was looking at the toy then you sent to the prop. So you can actually slow down the moment a bit by asking for the toy back, then sending to the prop.
At :28 when you were tugging near the prop, he left to the toy to go to the prop because you were near it.
So you can keep the toy play a little further from the work for now, get the toy back so there is a clear moment of tug-over, work-start. That will make it even easier for him and more predictable in a good way 🙂 and will also reduce errors in the future, where he might offer work if he is near it but not when it has been cued. Let me know if that makes sense or if I need more coffee haha!
Parallel path game looked great here, easy peasy! You can take the clicker out now an replace it with just using your ‘get it’ marker – the clicker was creating looking at you even when you did use the marker, because the click draws his focus to you, then he tracks the reward throw. The marker alone will keep him looking forward nicely.
And you can add more distance away from you on that parallel line. If the weather is cooperating, you can totally add in taking this outside to get more distance! You might need to start close to the prop to make sure he has the same value for it outside – or you might not need that at all because he is really good at generalizing things already. I bet if you take it outside and ask him what he knows, he will happily smack the prop.
Looking at the countermotion: He is again showing a marvelous ability to ignore the distraction (you moving away with the toy) while continuing to work. Good boy!!!! Very nice ability to continue to the prop while you are moving the other way.
Next steps on the countermotion game is to clarify the cues to start moving to the prop and expose to it – that will give a clear start to the work which will increase the speed to the prop (he was slowing down a bit on the way to it) and also let him know that the presence of the ‘work’ does not mean it is actually available.
To do this, add more of an antecedent (or a slightly different one) to go to the prop after the cookie reward – in the video, you were moving after he ate the cookie so he was looping right back to the prop.
Instead of that, you can ‘expand’ the loop by calling him too you for engagement – can be tugging, can be a bit of the ready dance, anything that is rewarding because we don’t want him to send himself and get called back (that can be confusing/frustrating) – then take a moment of engagement before doing a big rotated send to the prop.
What you will see by adding that is explosion to the prop and even better commitment (he already has really good commitment) which will let you use countermotion too!
By staying in continuous motion, he was slowing down on the way to the prop: trotting to it then galloping back to you. The moment of engagement allow us to get the gallop to the prop and maintain the gallop back to you as well 🙂 It is how we get the tremendous drive away from us (even in collection) along with the drive back to us.
This also folds in arousal regulation because the quiet engagement moment is stimulating 🙂 He is ready for that!
He did really well tugging with the milker toy even with the big new toy on the ground (and eating treats too!) So fun!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
I am glad you like the screenshots – the frozen moments in time can help us see what the pups are processing for sure!
>In general I’m not good at rear crosses.>
You are doing great with them! Rear crosses are definitely a trained cue and there is nothing natural about them for most dogs, so this session was mainly about showing that yes, it is possible to turn away on the line.
>she was trained with a target, so I defaulted to that after several fails.>
I don’t consider it a default here – it was more of a useful aid to show her the concept that it is possible to turn away when she sees/feels the pressure on the line. She was already turning away as soon as she exited the wing wrap LOL!! That allowed you to show her the turn-away concept while also showing her what the cues look like.
Also – Having your hands empty helped her, she was a little locked onto the toy in your hands when she was unsure.
To help with the RC cues, try not to think of it as cutting behind her to the new side. Think of it as pressuring the line as you run to the center of the bar of the jump – that gives her the take the jump cue and also the turn info. When you were focused on cutting behind her, the info was too early on some reps and pushed her off the line. But when you didn’t cut behind her on a couple of reps, the info was late and she turned immediately after landing 🙂
Basically, she needs to see the pressure forward to the center of the bar AND you need to get to the new side when she is still a stride from takeoff
So 2 ideas to help make it even easier:
– since she is young and needs to see the entire cue, add a little more distance between the wing and the jump to buy more time to show her all the info. Another 5 feet should be perfect! When she is more experienced, you won’t need to be as perfect because she will read the pressure as the first part of the cue.
– continue using a target, but you can make the RC cues more relevant by using an empty food bowl on t he turn line, near the wing. Sometimes you do the RC towards the food bowl (then toss a treat to it). Sometimes you continue straight, and throw the toy. You can also use a TnT in place of the food bowl, as long as she doesn’t obsess on the TnT and just keep running towards it LOL!
I grabbed more screenshots so you can see what she was seeing in those moments:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vvnRAEvGGPO8bYV-gZOtB5qeEoWuwXXWoitmz1wkr4E/edit?usp=sharingNice work here! Let me know what you think!!
Tracy
Good morning!
>, trying to wait for her to fully cross in front of me before I start running to cross. >
Yes, you were moving forward to the center of the bar on the left turn RCs and she was able to drive forward nicely!!
That resulted in super left turn RCs, you had all the right motion and line and verbal cues on reps 1 and 2, and also at :35 – you were already on the new side before she took off.
>I think I was over correcting here at the end and going too far away from her, so she ended up coming towards me?>
Yes, she didn’t get the right turn RCs at :26 and :44 (she turned left on those) because the info was late on both of those. When she was taking off, you were still on the left turn side so she was totally correct.
I think part of the reason why the cues were late was the position on the start wing. With it in the same spot as the left turn RCs, it put you too far away from the line to the center of the bar to show her the info in time. You can move the start wing over to the other side and try the earlier line of motion/side change like you did on the left turn RCs and see if that helps!
To give you the visual, here are the difference in timing of the RCs, showing why she sees in her last stride before takeoff for the left turn RCs and the right turn RCs. Getting you to be earlier on the right turn RCs should make all the difference:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lo99XBs1l5l2MPmvQfolaBNwVzVEjAdePyivs5JwuCY/edit?usp=sharing
It is pretty cool to see how strong her commitment is already, which allows us to play with timing of the different cues!
Great job with the serp versus threadle versus tunnel!! She didn’t seem to have any questions and was very happy to layer to get the tunnel without needing extra help. Love it!!! You can revisit this here and there, adding more motion of walking into position with your arm in the correct position (back for the threadle or serp, ‘normal’ for the tunnel :)) and release to see how she does with extra motion!
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
Sounds like you had a fun weekend all around! I hear the seminar with super fun.
>Between the week off, the wind knocking over jumps, lack of connection and bad tosses by me, the trash and green waste trucks coming by for pickup as well as the kids out for lunch recess in the school across the street, all in all she did pretty good.>
I agree! There was a lot going on in the environment and she did REALLY well!
>Still working on the retrieve. Feedback from Loretta is that I put too much pressure on her when I face her and walk/jog toward her. Loretta suggested that when she grabs the toy I turn and go in the opposite direction (similar to reverse retrieve) and then drop to the ground when she catches up with me. I left one of these in the video for you to observe.>
Yes – moving away is always more fun and less pressure in terms of bringing the toy back! Be sure to play play play with the original toy or a 2nd toy when she brings it back when you run away and/or get low for her… if you take it away when she gets to you, she will stop bringing it back because bringing it back means the toy goes away.
On the rep you left in where I could see you, she got to you and you petted her, but I didn’t see any other reinforcement and you put the toy away. Keep the cookies and toys in play for a lot longer there, make it a big playful moment – she looked a little surprised when she got to you and the toy went away.
She ran to you when you ran away on another rep, but it then you were out of frame so it was hard to see what happened with the reward. She did see you reaching for your cookie picket though, so that is a big draw to come back 🙂 Try to run away without reaching for the cookies, so the cookie reach doesn’t become part of the cue.
Looking at the videos:
>I think that’s why she was cutting behind me rather than driving forward on the first couple of sends – lack of connection so my shoulders were turned. Glad I still rewarded these as it clearly was handler error!>
Yes, you were lovely with the rewards! And yes, more connection and even being a bit ahead can help there, but I also felt the distance was bigger than what she had seen previously so it was harder. Interestingly, when you switched to the rear crosses to the right, the pressure of the rear cross line helped her see the jump, then her commitment was smooth sailing for the rest of the session 🙂
The right turn rears looked great!!!
Left turn rears are harder for her for sure – at 1:30, your line was maybe the tiniest bit late and she had just gotten a bunch of right turn rewards. At 1:47, the rear cross line was definitely late 🙂 but to help her with the left turns being the harder side, you can place the toy or an empty food bowl just behind the wing on the left turns, to help her lock onto the line.
>She was OK with me holding the harness for a couple of reps, and then rebellion hit.>
She did really well! I think part of it was after you took her collar, it took a long time to start and let go of it. That is probably not something you were feeling in the moment, but she sure was. The video time stamps are useful to see why she started to want it less – the collar holds ranged from 8-9 seconds at the beginning, to a short one of 5 seconds, then an 11 second hold. That is a long time in dog years 😂 😝 so you can hold the collar, give her the treat, then start within 2 or 3 seconds so there is not build up of frustration with it.
Great job here!!
Tracy
Good morning!
She did well with the find the jump game! It all hinges on the info she gets from your motion & connection. On the first rep, you were moving near the jump and connected so she got it easily. On the 2nd rep (1:03) you were further from the jump and not connected to her (looking ahead and moving your arm to throw the toy) when she exited the tunnel so she came to you. 3rd (1:24) and 4th reps (last rep) were both connected with good line of motion and she got it easily. Super! So as you keep expanding the distance and changing your position, keep that connection and stay in motion like you did here.
The zig zag reps went really well – her stay looks great which allowed you to get to the 3rd wing, which in turn allowed you to show the cues very clearly. Since it went so well, you can revisit it and move the wings closer by about 6 inches or so, to see if she can do the lead changes even faster 🙂
Looking at the minny pinny game:
>Did we do it correctly?>
Yes, but you are kind of starting at one of the hardest points of the game 🙂 You can start with the easier turning towards you and then work up to turning away. This might have happened before you filmed the session though.
Her right turns away from you were very smooth and easy! For the left turns, she turned right towards you first then left – the girl is a definite righty 🙂 You can help with the left turns away from you by setting her up on an easier line through moving over o she sees the bars really easily while turning left (rather than starting without seeing the bars and having to turn left to find them). You can also place a toy or food bowl as a visual aid between bars 1 and 2 to help get it started then after a couple of left turn away reps, you can move the visual aid to between 2 and 3, then take it out entirely when she is more comfortable with left turns away from you.
Sends & Serps went well! She is coming in towards the serp line really nicely! You were using your opposite arm which is great – just make it more obvious, really reaching across your body to show it to her. That way when you are both really running, she can see it easily 🙂 And great job with the front cross! You are connected and clear, and she seemed to have zero questions.
Set point – looking great!
Good advice from your videographer (high Donna!) to start closer to the bump: that set up better form into the set point. I think her form also looked better when the bump in the original position (a little further from the jump) because the distance was a tiny bit too short when you also added the moving target.
Speaking of the moving target: that was lovely! She maintained her form and added some more power, even with the distraction of motion and the toy. Super!! You are ready to move on to the ladder grid.
Great job on these!
Tracy
Good morning!
>What kind of object should we be using? >
Any object that is pretty meaningless to the grand scheme of life and dog sports is perfect. Maybe a big wooden spoon from the kitchen? I personally do this with balls all the time, because the ball is something likely to elicit an open mouth grab and I am not throwing it in this indoor session at the beginning of training. I start with just getting the dog to grab it then pick it up if it is rolling, then stationary. I can’t find a video of those beginning stages but eventually they are shaped to bring it to an object such as my hand 🙂 or to put it in a bowl:
>This was an old tug I got years ago when people demanded dogs had to tug to do agility.>
Ha! I remember those times. I am glad we have moved past that!
>but I think I was clicking for nose touches. >
From the camera angle, I did see some grabs but also possibly there were nose touches mixed in. One suggestion is to NOT look at her – just look at the object so you can see if her mouth opens or not.
>She’s very frustrated and I’d like to avoid that route.>
It is possible that going from the object in your hand (50 seconds, approx) to on the ground was too big of a criteria leap for a pup 🙂 You can do a full session with it in your hand, then come back another time, start where you left off then split the behavior into having your hand holding it but lower to the ground. Then depending on her rate of success, you can let go of it.
You can also try it with you in a chair or standing: when you were low to the ground, that elicited a down behavior which is a bit incompatible with retrieving. So you can raise yourself up, or you can put the object on a low table (like a Klimb or cato board) for her to pick up. Taking the down behavior out might help a lot!
The other thing that I have found helps is to toss the object, rather than just leave it ‘dead’ 🙂 A short toss almost always gets us an open-mouth grab to click! She might like that a lot too.
So, there is no single way to get it – keep experimenting with narrow slices of behavior and let her success rate (90% or better for the criteria of the moment) tell you when to make it harder or how to make it harder.
Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi!
The stays are going well!!
I think with the barrel, toy, and the bowl on the ground, he was not sure if he should offer a sit or something with the barrel/bowl/toy. Asking him to sit was very helpful and clarified things for him.He was holding the sit really well especially as you were moving away – for now, no need to praise the sit though, that was causing him to come towards you. You can be quiet for now while he is in the stay, the release (the catch of a cookie was really good, or release forward for the toy) then praise. We can add in a bit more quiet praise during the stay soon!
You can also add the toy to this game – let’s get him doing his stays even when he is more pumped up and a bit wilder 🙂 Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
Getting him pumped up with the toy here was super fun! He definitely liked it!! It was hard to se if he was tugging with it on all the reps- if he was, yay! If he was not – you can throw the toy.Yay for the line on the ground!! He had no trouble staying committed when the line was halfway around the barrel. Keep moving the line, inch by inch (because now it is going to get really challenging). When you didn’t move the line and tried to do the FC sooner, you didn’t really do it sooner – you still did the FC as he arrived at the line 🙂 So keep inching that line towards the starting spot. It will mean you do a number of reps on the same side, which is perfectly good to do. Then you can move the line to the other side. The line is basically a jump bar replacer at this stage, so it provides a great visual for you both.
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
Lap turns: going really well! He turns both directions nicely.
Your arm position is really strong – just add in stepping back with your dog-side leg as he arrives at your hand. That will help draw him toward yo more than turn him away. Without the leg step, it was harder to get the turn.
The timing of starting the turn was spot on (just as he was arriving at your hand) so the leg stepping back will make it even smoother: leg steps back and your arm draws him toward you, then you turn him away, then the leg steps forward again.Nice work!
TracyGood morning!
The resilience pattern game is going great! The slower responses are indications of how challenging the environment is: it takes more brain power to process the distraction so his responses are not as quick. No worries! Still totally rewardable. And he will get faster and faster with practice.
You caught yourself waiting too long on one rep LOL – no need to wait for eye contact. I am sure you will get a lot of eye contact as a bonus in easier environments, but it is not a mandatory part of the criteria in harder environments. The more important elements are looking towards you (and not at distractions) o you can even click the moment he sniffed your knee when the bowl was on the ground 🙂
Since he did so well here, you can take this game into different environments – and reward him for looking towards you. Start with easy places and see how it goes – and bring great treats because that helps too!
Nice work!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Whew! Perfect!! Get It! Will be my dead toy marker, love it. Less words for me the better LOL!>
You can eventually change to a separate dead toy marker if you want to or if she seems confused. I have never seen dogs get confused though, unless the ‘get it’ is only ever used with something like a ball throw or frisbee throw. That is not the case with Sunnie. And less words is better because then our brains have a good chance of using them correctly and that helps the dogs truly learn them 🙂
The parallel path game is going great! It is hilarious how much value we can build for a potholder LOL! But it is a good way to think about how to build value for eventual agility obstacles when she is older. Shaping for the win!
You can add more and more distance to this game of course so you might need to take it on the road when you run out of space in her training room. That will be a good way to refresh the value in new places (start closer in a new place and see how much she ‘remembers’ the pot holder).
In the home space you can add starting right next to her but walking slowly, so she can drive ahead of you. That will set us up for the rear crosses!
The giant crate wing wraps looked great! She has a ton of value for this too – I think you will both have fun with Turn And Burn! The pop up crate might be too big for that, so you can use something a little smaller for that game.
Great job here! Have fun!
Tracy
Hello! These games are off to a great start!
Backing up: We can make it more independent by changing the placement of your reinforcement. I think you had the cookie in your hand the whole time, so it looks like he was following the cookie more than thinking about backing up 🙂
When you are working it on the flat – put one cookie down just underneath you, then when he backs up, you can toss the next treat – no cookies delivered from hands, and your hands don’t assist in moving him backwards.
When adding the mat: start with him having all 4 feet on it then lure his front feet off with a cookie in your hand. Then freeze your hand (don’t move it back towards him) so he can offer stepping back with his front feet: then toss the treat to him.
The turn and burn around the barrel is also going well. This is a fat moving game but also needs a lot of precision:
Be sure you are starting close to the barrel (close enough to touch it, no distance added yet) with him lined up at your side before each send. If you were too far and just tried to send (like at :22 and :58), things went sideways because the cue was not as clear and he is new to this game.
So after a reward, you can tug him close to the barrel before getting the toy back, then line up, then send. Go for the precision of the line up and send with connection, because those are really good reps like at 1:22! When you didn’t have that, he got frustrated and started leaping and grabbing.
>Ziv loved this although coupe of times he had trouble going from toy reward back to work->
If those were the moments where he was leaping, I don’t think it was a toy transition question – it was more of a send lacking clarity question. The prevision lineup will help smooth that out.
For the next step of the game, add the line on the ground that moves closer to the start point after each successful rep or two, so you can cue yourself to do the FC earlier and earlier. Without the line, you will default to the same timing and we want to get the FC happening sooner and sooner.
Nice work here!!
Tracy
Good morning!
Keep me posted on how his belly feels after class. Charley Bears treats are very visible and don’t roll, so maybe they won’t upset his belly? I break them in half so the pups don’t take too long to chew them.
The parallel path game went great! He is very good at hitting his prop and was focusing forward to it – he didn’t look at you until after he hit it. The distance away from you didn’t seem to matter. And he was happy to do it on both sides of you, no weaknesses on either side. SUPER!!!
So 3 next steps for this:
– You can add more of your motion, getting further ahead and moving a bit faster: can he still find the prop and ignore the increased excitement of more motion?
– You can go all the way to the cookie reward with him and don’t start moving til he is ready. When he starts moving, he will be next to you: will he drive ahead to the prop? This will set us up well for the rear crosses!
– Take the parallel path game like you did it here to a bigger location so you can add more room and distance!
The countermotion also went well. You will get a snappier drive to the prop if you don’t loop him back to the send after tossing the reward. Instead, you can call him to you, do a bit of ready dance, then send him. That gives him a clearer start indication so he will move even faster to it, and that will let you start moving the other direction even sooner.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
Definitely a wise choice to get this game in before the rains come!! And the session went SUPER well!! Fun!
>also noted the arm back connection parts in the demo video…. And I still noticed I need much improvement there. I was trying!>
Most of your connection here was really lovely with your eyes on her eyes and your arms down while you moved. For example:
– dog-on-right from the wing to the tunnel at the strait of each rep was consistently connected and with a low arm. And so was dog-on-left from the wing to the tunnel when you switched sides. Nice!!! She had no questions.– the exits of the blinds at :22, :29, :44 and :52 were lovely and connected. You can see the lovely connection more easily on the other side: 1:01, 1:08 & 117. In other words: every single one. Happy dance! She was able to turn nice and tight on those with no questions.
– you were good about staying connected when she exited the tunnel to go to the wing, but I think the rep at 1:16 was the best connection from the tunnel exit to the wing. On that one, your arm was back to her and she could very easily see the connection. Your arm was a bit more perpendicular to your shoulder on the other reps (a right angle in your armpit 🙂 ) which makes it harder to see your connection.
– the race tracks were almost perfect: low arms and lots of eyes and verbals delivered to her. Lovely!
So let’s compare all of that great work to the little blooper moments. She is too young to keep commitment going if the connection shifts the cues, so she had a couple of questions:
At :45 she didn’t go to the wing after the blind. In the video you mentioned it was because you said yay, but it looks like it was mainly because you pointed with an arm and that turned your shoulder away from the line, so she followed your shoulder turn. Compare to the next rep where you were more connected to her eyes (not pointing :)) and she found the wing with bo problem, at all 🙂
She had a similar small question at 1:37 on the race track – it was the only time you pointed ahead of her and it turned your shoulders, so she looked at you to see what you wanted (then went and took the correct wing).
I grabbed screenshots of those subtle details so you can see how the line of your shoulder changes. The link is here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LEisBDxsDUxnPe56IybeHbbPPKrlY0BD5I2cLS4cdyw/edit?usp=sharing
For now, you can keep working on getting perfect connection 🙂 but thankfully, she won’t need you to be perfect as she gets more experience. None of us humans cane be perfect which is why we reward the dogs sooooo much for finding the lines 🙂
Great job here!!
Tracy
