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Hi! Glad you liked the video!
We do handling classes sprinkled throughout the year, with the big one starting in June called CAMP!
THi!
>>In this, I attempted to follow your advice from last night – wait to reward verbally til he is committed to the obstacle, throw the ball (don’t reward from hand), and use body and low arms to support what Forrest is being asked to do.>>
This went really well!!! Nice job making the adjustments!!
He was good boy, finding the difference between the jump and the tunnel! As the wing and your position get further away from the line, it is fine to take the extra step to help him see the jump past the tunnel. That really helped him! And if he ends up at the wrong obstacle, you don’t need to throw the ball – you can reset with a cookie then try again.
On the 2nd video,:
>>He was ok with the wing “in line” with the other two obstacles,>>
Yes, he did well there! You can take an extra step to the tunnel like you did :33 to help him see it, then fade it out as we add more and more layering skills.
>>but once I moved it back, we had trouble getting him OVER the backside of the jump. Did I remember my directional (BACK) – Nope.>>
Yes, the backside verbal would be better there and you can also change the position of the wing so it is far but not fully a backside. At 1:04 and 1:53 he was correct because you said “over” and that is the front side cue, which is where he went. He did well when you stepped to the backside though, that really helped!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
It sounds like the seminar went really well – so many new variables and she was great! Yay!
The first wing position was hard because there was no place for you to go, making it harder to find the jump. But the others all looked great! I think she is ready for more motion – you can be cuing the obstacle and moving up the line, so you end up layering the jump when she is taking the tunnel.
On the other side:
Going past the tunnel could potentially be really hard, so you set her up for success by using just enough handling to show what you wanted (one or two steps past the tunnel) – then you artfully faded it as the session went on. VERY NICE! And that set up great work on the last couple of reps, where she went to the jump with minimal handling help. And of course there was no problem getting the tunnel 🙂She only had one question, at 1:34. I think you were saying “go” and that could apply to either obstacle, so she did a little zig zag and ended up on the backside of the jump. Good girl, nice reward for the effort too! The rest was very clear with the verbals.
>>I noticed in exercise 2 that you said to use your threadle command on the rep where it’s wing, jump, jump. Isn’t that really just a discrimination though? Do you use a threadle cue for both a true threadle and a typical discrimination? When I took Jordon Biggs threadle class she made a big point about what is and is not a threadle. But, I still get confused sometimes.>>
Do you mean on the blind cross between 2 and 3? It is indeed a discrimination because of the tight handler line – when the dog lands from the first jump, it is entirely possible she sees the front and back so has a choice especially in those moments when the handle is not perfect LOL!
The handler needs to help with cues, so the “jump” verbal is too vague and could apply to either side. Because the dog has a choice of front or back in this context, a threadle verbal after the blind helps a whole lot. I think Jordan would use a blind-to-threadle in this context too, she leans towards the Shape Up method of handling and I am 99% sure they would use a blind-to-threadle here too.The other option is a forced blind which delays the blind til the dog has reached the backside plane… but in this context, that will put the dog right into the tunnel because it is a pretty late cue 🙂
Great job here! Fingers crossed for no rain!!
TracyThe upcoming backside versus tunnel games are hard, so it should make this premier course look easier LOL!
The brake arm is an opposite arm turn cue:
Have fun!
TracyThese little drills will help us all clean up the verbals, because a lot happens in a short amount of time 🙂
Hi!
>>I think I need to play a little more when resetting for the exercise when he’s wrong.Or use a cookie to line him up again immediately, which can also reset for the next rep.
Looking at the verbal game:
Finding the jump with the tunnel right there is hard and also tells us about where the value is! So you can tweak the game to be more about the jump by having your position be closer to the jump to start (but still have some tunnel cues too) rather than centered between the two obstacles.
Also be careful about the subtle help of where you are looking – when you look down at him, he is not as sure. When you look at the obstacle, he tends to get it right more but that might be a product of the physical cue, not the verbal cue.>>After re-watching, I think I should have ended the training session at 2min>>
I was thinking the same thing – 2 minutes might be a good maximum time because he might get mentally tired after that.
Handling 1:
I think the verbals sounded pretty different, but you can be louder for the tunnel word, and repeat the jump word less quickly so it is drawn out a bit more.The handling elements looked good – you can add more motion to all of these to challenge him to find the correct obstacles as you connect any run, especially when you are way ahead or when you start super close to the wing so he has to drive ahead.
Disconnection was the hardest one (as it should be LOL) – you can reward approximations like at 1:28 here he ran next to the jump when you were kind of disconnected rather than over the bar – it is close enough for a hard challenge 🙂 You can start with weak connection where he sees part of your face but not real connection, then you can work up to full disconnection.
Handling combo 1 – the handling and connection all looked good, he is finding them easy to follow even with the other obstacle right there. Yay!
>>OMG chirpy tunnel command!! What is coming out of my mouth!?!>>
Ha! I think maybe because it is in a small space that you are not using the verbals the same way you would on a big course? Do you have a video of running a big course at a trial, to hear what your tunnel verbal sounds like there?
>> So I thought I would leave the toy on the ground and try the exercise and release him to it.>>
That adds a really challenging variable, so the other challenges should be dialed back to be easier. On the first rep, he followed the handling well (broke his stay because you were not connected) but then the toy you left there was right on his line (no turn cue on the jump so he read the motion which said to jump in extension), so I can see his argument for getting it when he was driving towards it – then he got a verbal correction for it (twice, almost 3 times) but then drove to it on his line at the tunnel (the get it verbal was there but hidden in among a whole lot of other verbals) so that can be confusing.
To help him learn to do courses without the toy in your hand, create a reward station (a chair, for example) where you leave the toy. So it is visible and obvious… but not on his line as a possible reinforcement because we do leave toys on the line all the time as reinforcement we want him to target to. That way you can put a specific marker on it but it won’t be something he has to run over – which creates a higher rate of success. And, you can bring your reward station to trials so he can understand it there too!
Then, break the sequences down to small pieces to reward moving away from the toy a lot – on the last rep, he was avoiding the jump a little (1:45) because he was unsure. So breaking things down and rewarding after every couple of obstacles will help as you build it up to being able to do full courses.
On the last video –
>>Not sure why he thought that was a backside. >>I think he was probably a little tired, if all of these sessions were done on the same day or in a short time span – lots of repetition on the same visuals, so he loses his processing a bit, might have been distracted by something. And possibly your shoulder was closed so he didn’t see the connection, and was going wide to see the connection. So it is a good one to revisit at the start of the next session, when he is fresh 🙂
>>Which then got me thinking about my push command for the backside—which is “Push, Push, Push” emphasis on the P and a little staccato like the Jump command! >>
You can alter your push or jump verbals to be longer – puuush puuuush rather than PshPshPsh and that can help them sound different. I think the only truly staccato verbals should be wrap verbals, everything else can be stretched to varying degrees.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! This went really well!
All of the handling in all of the combos looked super strong: connected and clear (there was one moment where you were in her way a little and disconnected as you moved at 1:24 so she dropped the bar, but the rest was fabulous so we will ignore the one blooper. I don’t think she had any questions about where to go on any of them, she followed the cues pretty perfectly!!
One thing to consider with the verbals:
Normally it is fine to name a line “go tunnel” when she has to take a jump or two on the way to the tunnel if it is a straight line… but in this case try to use a jump verbal for two reasons:
– because it is a little turn to the tunnel, so the jump verbal will support that
– because you said tunnel for both obstacles here and we want to be able to strengthen the verbals so you don’t have to rely on handling as much.You did add a bit of “go” verbal before the jump cue on combo 2 but you also used it for the tunnel 🙂 So try to just use the jump or tunnel verbal to help build up those verbals.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! Welcome!!!
Thank you for the update!!
>> Question on handling games 1: I just simply post turned toward the jump and said jump and both boys got it nicely without the reverse spin. Why the reverse spin? I noticed with Elecktra it seemed pulled her off the line a bit.
I used the reverse spin so that the dogs would see rotation on approach to the wing for both exits – that way they didn’t learn to predict that it would be the tunnel because I rotated, versus the jump if I didn’t rotate. I wanted to show rotation on both so they would have to pay attention to the other cues (connection and verbals) when they exited the wing wraps 🙂
>>Funny watching both boys: Watson I had to say the obstacle name before he rounded the barrel if he was going to have time to take the jump or tunnel. Levy if I said the obstacle name he would immediately turn around and go to the tunnel or jump without taking the barrel 1st. Levy I feel is processing the verbal quite literally. Watson I feel is depending on motion and handling.>>
That is a really interesting observation!!! Yes, it is normal that they would process really differently and it makes sense. I mean, we humans all process things differently from each other so it makes sense for the dogs too LOL!
I have experienced the same thing you are noticing: my pointy dogs are very very verbal and pretty quick to process verbals even when running, so I don’t need to be as early. And it sounds like because Levy is young, he is being very literal and doing exactly what you asked in the very instant you asked it LOL! So you can start the verbal later.
Watson is doing what I have seen in my terriers and with Voodoo: processing verbals is not naturally as strong, so I need to be earlier so they can process it better (and I also needed to start with less motion with all the non-pointy dogs LOL!)
I don’t know why sighthounds and sighthound mixes are great at processing verbals over motion, but I am happy that it happens LOL!!!
>>Watson and I crashed and burned around obstacle 5 we weren’t quite able to get the last couple and I didn’t want him to know so we had a toy party instead. I will video next session once it dries out here again.>>
Yes, either get video or let me know what happened – I bet he nails it in the next session 🙂
>>I will try the combos with Levy later. I think he needs one more session on handling games 1. I would like him driving to the barrel on a long send before I try the mini sequences.>>
Yes, with his speed, you definitely want to be able to send miles away to the barrel 🙂
Keep me posted! Sounds like the boys are doing really well!
Tracy
Good morning! Nice work on these videos!!
Looking at the first video – either all the coffee is playing tricks on my brain or this was in slow motion LOL!
That made it a little hard to hear the difference in the verbals (even when I sped it up) but in a way, that is good: it takes out my brain’s understanding of the word, and locks into the other elements like volume, pitch, rhythm etc. And they were a little similar, hard to tell apart – you were saying them twice and then letting go, and they sounded identical in pitch and rhythm for most of the video. Interesting! When it went back to really speed for the last 30 seconds, I could hear the word but definitely I think you can make them sound even more different.
I like to think of Tunnel verbals as ALL CAPS 🙂 so there is change in volume and intensity TUNNELTUNNELTUNNELTUNNELTUNNELTUNNEL versus the jump verbal, which I deliver more conversationally and with fewer reps: juuuump? juuuump? That will help him differentiate when handling is not available to help (you are layering, or too far behind, etc).
>>2) be “less controlling” of his decisions but still adhering to the two failure rule.>>
I think you were inadvertently holding him til he looked at the correct obstacle on a lot of reps 🙂 So one way to limit that is to close your eyes 🙂 When you start the verbal, close your eyes and say the verbal 4 or 5 times, then simply let go. Open your eyes when you let go LOL! so you can see where to reward. That will give a better indication of what he is responding too! And it will be extremely challenging 🙂
The 2nd video was in slow motion too – like an art movie. Ha! A good challenge is to get your verbals to sound even more different, even in slow motion!
He did really well especially finding the jump past the tunnel. You can use reset rewards for ‘almost’ moments like at 1:08 when he was heading to the right spot but lost a little confidence that he was correct because you were rotated. You can also throw the reward sooner, when he is on the way to the jump before he gets there, to affirm the good decision! Note how he looked at you on the next rep and then finished his line to the tunnel when you stepped to it.
The rest looked really strong!! You can definitely change the start angle on the barrel now!
Great job!!
TracyGood morning!!
>>wow miracles do happen.. I did videos again.
YAY!!! Hopefully you are finding it easy to just throw the videos online, no big editing needed. The videos look really good!
>>It was hard to get the whole set up. I need to find a way to get it from above but for now this is what I got…. I tried to get the part where the handling takes place.>>
It was good! We don’t need to see the tunnel exit or jump landing right now, we can assume he exits or lands LOL!
> I did video my first tries and I see some of my errors. Gibbs did awesome.
Yes – you both rocked it!!
>> First video I used said tunnel before the wing (LOL) and did not even give my verbal for jump on the first try at the jump.
No worries, you were very clear and consistent on the rest.
>> Am I using too much body movement since we are suppose to be working on verbals?
The handling games are both physical and verbal cues, so you were good with your handling (more below on that).
>>And on position 2 and 3 I start out in the right position but looking at videos I move out of the position after the first try.
I thought you did well!
>> And am I suppose to be moving more on position 2 and less movement on position 3?
Nope, you were good, you can move on all 3 positions. The starting points vary to challenge him to chase you or drive ahead of you.
Looking at the 3 videos:
As you mentioned, you used a variety of positions relative to the wing: starting really near it (video 3), starting far from it and closer to the obstacles (video 2), and starting in the middle (video 1). Gibbs seemed to have zero questions about any of it: “Easiest game ever” was his thought bubble LOL!The only thing that was hard to see on the video was if you were trying the disconnection element at all (couldn’t see your face LOL!) So I would definitely try that – starting in position 1, walking, big verbals but not really looking at him or connecting to him. He will either think it is a little harder, or just as easy as the rest of it LOL!
>>Will give this another try tomorrow and the get Combo number 2 a try so I can move on to Week 2>>
For the next session, definitely try the disconnection. The only other suggestion would be to try position 2 where you are way ahead and running hard in between the 2 obstacles: can he find the correct obstacle based on connection and verbal, even when the motion looks the same and he can see both options?
And yes, he is definitely ready for the Combos challenge of game 2 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Good job making the serp jump a little easier for her!
When she was not going to it (first rep & :39), you had too much shoulder pull which was pulling her away from it. On the other reps where she ran past it, it was more of a serp question so angling it to help her see the bar was really smart!! That way you can keep moving forward past the landing side, like you did at 1:14.The tunnel sending was good, keep adding more distance and motion so that you can get massive layering!
When you added handling between the jump and tunnel:
The FC was good connection on the exit and you moved towards the jump, so she found it (:52). When you did the BC, it was a little late with verbal and connection so she was not sure where to be.
The BC started as she was taking off at 1:02 as you tried to connect after landing (more eye contact will definitely help her find the correct side) you were moving backwards to the tunnel (instead of forwards to the jump), so she had to choose motion or verbal because she couldn’t really see the connection – she looked at you and chose motion, good girl, that is fine and rewardable because she is not necessarily wrong there!So starting the blind sooner is the key:
as she comes around the start wing and looks at the first jump, start the blind so you are connected and running towards the jump before she lands 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I agree, she did really well here!!!
She should be on the same side on all approaches (left side on this setup) so the first couple of reps where she was on your right were not quite the same challenge. But when you moved the wing, you kept her on your left for all reps and that was great! She had a harder time leaving you to move away to the tunnel, so you added a little bit of handling help. That was perfect! In the next couple of sessions, try to fade the handling help and see if she can do it with just one step of help, and then eventually only verbals.
Nice work!!!
TracyHi!
>>Yes, very low frustration tolerance!!
I think that a key would be to use an immediate reset marker where she comes back to get a cookie to try again – that can really help reduce frustration while building up a calmer response when things are not perfect.
>>I’ll have to break out some really yummy treats for the lazy tunnel game… Would I play that game separately from the discrimination game so the tunnel is just by itself? If so, I might add the Manners Minder back in so she doesn’t have to work for the cookie by getting it out of the toy. I think she prefers that.>>
Try it separately from the discrimination work, to pump up the value of the tunnel. You can use the MM but fade it quickly from the tunnel exit because the MM might be too much of a cue – want the tunnel to be the cue 🙂 You can just throw big visible treat chunks rather than a lotus ball, I figure she will like that 🙂
If getting the food out of the lotus ball is not a good feeling for her, then definitely take it out – she ran off after a lotus ball reward early in the video here. Big chunks of treats for the win! Yes, there might be fewer reps but that is fine because I would prefer several high value reps over tons of medium value reps.
Looking at the video – she was doing well when she was on your left and even finding the independent line to the tunnel! If possible, shorten up the tunnel so it is easier for her to run through when you want it, and easier to see past it when yo uare on the other side trying to show her the jump.
She had a harder time on the other side, when passing the tunnel to see the jump. Maybe it is the visual of the tunnel is so big that i twas hard to process the jump cue? Or maybe her brain was already challenged enough from the other side 🙂 and this side needs it own separate day for training LOL! You can help with more motion, and you can also reward more approximations of going near the jump, even if it is the other side – the criteria can be “anything that is near the jump and not the tunnel” 🙂
And definitely add a reset marker/cookie. After about 1:30, she was frustrated and had a bunch of failures, and got barky then took off. The reset marker/cookies will really help this while buying you a moment to think of an adjustment to make, and will also help get rid of the moments when she is facing you and barking.
So when you cue a rep – if she has a question and you are not planning to throw a reinforcement, call her back immediately, give a cookie at your side and line up again (helping her more, if she needs it). The reset marker and cookie should be very consistent, happen every time, no change in demeanor from the humans 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning, thanks for this – it is a GREAT example of an AKC jump-tunnel discrim!!!!
>>After reading your feedback from today, I’m thinking I was too pointy & lost connection!>>
Yes, too pointy with too much motion and that off course tunnel was 10000% on her line. I suggest for her a “brake” arm (small use of opposite arm) to get collection and a ‘left’ verbal. And we have backside versus tunnel exercises coming up that will help that!
Let me know if you need a brake arm video 🙂
>>I’m noticing that I lack the eye contact connection that I see you have in your videos. I am relying on my hand/arm to direct her, but there is really no connection there.>>
The eye contact is what turns our shoulders/chest to the line and also the eye contact allows the dogs to see our shoulders/chest… so it can be super clarifying for dogs in terms of where to go. The low arm which is back towards her will help open up that connection.
T
Good morning!
>>(BTW, we got kudos on his sends and my layering today in class!!!!)>>
Yay! So fun!!!!
And yes, the wind was nuts yesterday!!
The main tweak I have for you on these is to throw the rewards and not having him come back to you for all the rewards. By having him come to you, he goes a little too much into handler focus so you have to handle more. To create more distance and not have to run as hard, you can throw the rewards and he will happily drive the lines without you.
First video:
He did really well with the first handling exercises! All 3 positions of the wing looked great!
>>Sorry I didn’t properly figure out the width of the view we needed, but you can hear me and see him execute. >>
Ha! No worries, we see all the important parts and I can see your shadows during the line up 🙂
Be sure to delay any praise til after he has really committed to the obstacle – when you say “YES!” he looks at you, and that pulls him off the line when he is working at a distance (like at 1:57). You can replace “yes” with “get it” and throw the reward, so he doesn’t look at you and instead looks at his line 🙂 You got closer to the tunnel on the next rep but I don’t think he needed you to get closer – he just needs to know to finish the tunnel because the reward will be thrown and not handed to him from you 🙂
The second video is also looking good! On the first couple of reps, he needed one more step or two for the jump past the tunnel (like you did at :40, that was strong) when he was successful and only one step to the tunnel. You were really good with supporting the line whenever he got the extra step or two. It was good to go past the tunnel entry to help him find the jump on the other side. Now on the next session, we want to fade that a little bit and work towards you sending him all the way past the tunnel without you needing to also go past the tunnel. The key to that will be throwing the ball 🙂 You will have fewer reps because it takes longer to get he ball back, but the quality of the reps will be super high and get more distance even quicker.
>>And I can see where those will definitely require me to forget my years of trialing with my girlie (now retired) where I used those arms just like that…….>>
Yes, course design has evolved so we need to use our arms differently, plus young dogs need extra supersized connection early in their careers (and later on, arm use won’t matter as much :))
Great job!!! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
