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Hi there!
He is a tugging mad man with the flirt pole! I love it!
He is doing really well with his threadles here. Yo can totally add the 2nd wing so it looks like a full jump.
He was really strong on the first side, coming to your left hand (left turn around the entry wing). He had a couple of questions on the other side (right arm, right turn( – I think on the first rep at :35 he was eating and didn’t quite make the threadle line (because, eating haha) and then you helping him a little with your arm moving back – then he as perfect.A couple of things to add now:
To help get the default of going to the jump after the threadle and not waiting for additional help, do two things:
– delay the click of the MM until he has rounded the entry wing and turned his head to the jump bump. Your clicks were perfect for coming to the correct side, and now we can delay ever so slightly so that he starts thinking about taking the bar and not just coming to the correct side. If he has any questions about that – such as looking at you and not at the bar – yo can change the position of the manners minder so it is more center-of-the-bar as he comes to the threadle side, so he is more likely to look over the bar to it.– as you are cuing the threadle and waiting for him to look at the bar to click: keep your shoulders frozen in threadle position so you don’t accidentally build in motion towards the bar as the cue. We want it completely independent of your shoulders/motion. It will feel weird, yes, but it is only for a few reps LOL!
When he is coming to the threadle side and looking for the bar easily… you can move to the next game which adds motion! Yay!!!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I think he has this down. I can be rotating away and he will still go and wrap the wing. One of the reps I forgot to say the verbal immediately, and I could see him eyeing the jump. Good boy when he turned!
I agree!!! Not only will he wrap perfectly when you are rotating away early but when you were late rotating: he still wrapped. YES! Good boy! You can make the bar on the distraction jump lower, so it is more tempting because it is even easier.
>> I added in the toy because I wasn’t getting much momentum.
Yes – it was correct to start with treats but he was so bored LOL!!!! Things got exciting when the toy came out but he didn’t lose his accuracy. It is great to see him maintain and even improve the accuracy when the arousal level got higher. YAY!!!! So… onwards to the jump replacing the wing. That will allow you to also add in the GO rep over 2 jumps. Let me know how he does!
You can also do game 3, where the distraction jump is moved to tempt him on the exit line 🙂
>>Flurry is going to Skylos tomorrow. The Chiropractor thought it was a slip on the ice and she splayed her legs. I haven’t seen any lameness since the night of the incident. Thanks for asking. It was very scary.
It sounded really scary! Hopefully the docs at Skylos will find anything that isn’t quite right, or even better: tell you that she is perfectly fine. Which vets are you seeing? If it is Dr. Peter or Dr. Faith, please tell them that Hot Sauce Sklenar sends her best regards 🙂
Nice work here with Skye and keep me posted about Flurry!
TracyHi!
No worries about the teeter footage, he looked good LOL!>>Started without looking at the homework closely so used the bar.
We do use the bar, but start it really low so he can get the mechanics smoothly and save his body because there are a lot of reps – on the full height bar, he was turning but he was landing ore on his front (not powering from his rear as much). So I think the next several sessions should be 12 inches or lower, so he can sort out how to engage his hind end to make the turns. The 2nd jump (distraction jump) should also be low so it is very easy to go over… which makes it a more tempting distraction LOL! Plus the low bars make the “GO” jumping easier because the distance is so small.
>>He was doing it correctly because of my position and motion. Need to test and practice at all positions!!>>
yes – try to handle less and just move forward more 🙂 You did that at :49, for example – and it really challenged him! He was not as tight as when you were helping with the handling, but that is fine – he was still correct (came back around the wing, didn’t take that distraction jump) so you can totally reward that!
So for the next session, you can add the wing wrap before this setup, so he is going around a wing then heading towards the wing/jump combo – you will be saying the wrap verbal for the wing, but moving forward til he makes a decision. If he wraps, even if it is not perfect: big party! And if he does well, you can add jogging then running 🙂
And if you get a good session or two on the wing, you can add the rest of the jump back with a low bar and start from the wing wrap, moving forward at a walk.
>> I added for tight left. “Check check. ( noted I said check only once on one jump)”. And tight right is “ dig dig .”
Great! 2 different cues will really help clarify things for him.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Lots of good stuff here – he had a lot of success and I can see things that we can add to get more success to transfer to the big running courses too.
On the first game – he is beginning to sort out the turns but he has not sorting out his hind end yet. The video has a great angle of his butt LOL!! Play it in slow motion, like from :28 to :31. Watch his back feet go higher than his shoulders there (he was doing this on a lot of the reps especially to the left).
Basically, it means that he is generally understanding of WHAT you want him to do (turn tightly around the wing) but not HOW he can do it. So he is using his front and gets it done here… but on big distances over full height bars at a trial, he will probably just end up jumping in extension because it is too hard to process the weight shift at speed (he doesn’t really know how). That would also explain why he jumps long and sometimes runs around things instead of digging in to get them. It is not that he is not using his brain, it is more like we need to help him with the mechanics. I can relate – mechanics are hard!He was better turning to his right and GREAT at :58 but your extreme deceleration of falling on your butt is probably too much haha
The GO reps were AWESOME and the jumping was much more balanced.
So I want to help him sort out how to shift his weight into his rear more – for now, make the height easier, no higher than 8 inches til you see him jumping with the proper balance in his rear (no feet going over his shoulders). Start with walking – and when you see him shift his weight back, take off and run to deliver the reward, and run on that hard countermotion angle that you did at :39-:40. That hard angle really helps convince dogs to engage their rear more – but start with a walk because the running is part of the reward. And we don’t want you to run into it until we see the hind end use we want at a walk. Keep the camera at this angle, it was perfect!
And if we don’t see him being able to sort out how to push from the rear, then I have other ideas but I think these will get him started 🙂
Game 3 was put in specifically for Stark and the pups like him LOL! I am glad he found it challenging because it is indeed challenging! He was able to maintain a tight turn after the first rep when you were moving at a walk/slow jog. As you added running, the turns got wider til he went off course at 1:38 and 1:48. He was not wrong on a jump but I don’t think I want to put him on a jump yet with this game. Instead, try this to get him to go really tight on the wing:
Add the wing wrap before it so we are adding his speed, but not yours – you will still be walking forward. And don’t do FCs – just keep walking forward until he makes a decision to either wrap or to go off course. When he makes the wrap decision, mark it and take off on running on that tight countermotion line so he can grab his toy.
Use this setup for a couple of sessions til you see him starting the collection before the wing and you are able to run forward into it – then we start the process with a jump. That also gives us the time to help him sort out his hind end with the other game.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHe knows he has superpowers LOL!!!! He tries to convince us he is just Clark Kent but the truth he is Superman (sometimes Naughty Superman, but generally good Superman haha)
Hi! Very happy to see you here! And Promise at 13 months old is definitely ready to start learning the grown up stuff 🙂
>>I was happy with this exercise of turning on the wings! She showed me she understands her max pup turn and burn very well! I felt like her body placement was good and she didn’t once fall for that sneaky jump! >>
I agree! She was terrific with her turning ability, she never took the distraction jump… and the GO reps were perfect. Happy dance!!!! You can move the distraction jump in little closer 🙂 And you can also delay the FC timing, be late on purpose: see if she can still make the nice wrap even with less help fro the physical cue (you might need to go back to walking at first for that).
>>The issue that I sometimes run into with her on wing wraps is displayed here though. Thankfully most of the time it is with double wing wraps(figure 8s) and her jumping up at my side after the first wrap. >>
I wanted the video with this in mind, to see what might be causing it.
>>Unfortunately for her, the bad trainer showed up today and then had the toy flopping in face😂 on the first rep🤦♀️. >>
Ha! I don’t mind that – it is a great distraction 🙂 And I don’t think it is the source of the jumping up, because she does it even when the toy is not in her face.
And great job with your reward markers, I thought you were quite clear on those,
>>I think this subsequently caused the other jump ups.
I don’t think so –
>>I do also feel like it’s a connection issue with me sometimes too. >>
Yes – more like this is the cause. And it is not that you are badly disconnected, it is just that when you ‘swoosh’ your hand/arm forward to send her past you, it is either too disconnecting or too stimulating (or both) and you get the jumping up every.single.time.
You can see it very clearly with the camera angle at 1:23, watch her reaction (jump up!). Compare that to 2:04 (harder to see because she was on the other side of you): – you didn’t really swoosh your arm forward when she was behind you, the arm moved after she passed you, and she was quite smooth to the wing. Nice!
So for now (maybe for always haha) she is a dog that does not want you pointing to the jumps and will bark/jump/bite to let you know that. Try this game with your elbow locked back the whole time, as if you are holding a drink that you don’t want to spill. Even as you are sending her past you, don’t move your arm ahead of you. Start at a walk and nice and close, and see how she does.
To give you an idea of what I mean, here is an old video of Voodoo when he was not yet 2 years old and I was trying to teach myself to NOT fling my arm forward because he was jumping up, barking, biting (sound familiar LOL!)
Here is a video with explanation:
>>I do believe the wing wraps have a history of frustration tied with them. When she was younger I don’t think she understood when the toy was available as the reward. After the first wrap she was like ”I did my thing why are you withholding my reward?!!!” She would get frustrated and sometimes she would bite me! We are past the biting now lol, but I still think it has a frustration element possibly tied to it. To get past the biting I had to use food on a target and take the focus off of me on these.>>
This is definitely possible! You are clean with your markers now, and you can also throw a reward to the exit of the wrap with the other hand, to help smooth it all out. But I bet the connection change with the arm locked back ends up helping her a lot LOL!
I think my theory will hold true based on the class video!!! (LOVELY stay and wrap, BTW!) Watch your dog-side arm in that video – it was locked back as you released her, and it barely moved. You moved it a little after she was passing you, but just as little. You definitely did not move it forward to point to the jump while she was still behind you! And she was perfect in that little clip!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I think you can go to the wing wrap before the setup, with you walking into it to see how they do.
to clarify, keep the set up the same and walk? Should I run the exit line to get the acceleration?>>
Yes, same setup and walking forward. And you can run the exit line if you think it is a higher value reward, but don’t start running until after the dogs have made a decision 🙂
>>It is entirely possible that I placed myself incorrectly. I think that my line was likely on the backside line instead of the centered wing, so I should set the line closer to the centered wing?
Yes – you can be a bit more centered so he can see the wing you want him to wrap. Eventually you can proof being in the wrong position to see if he can learn front versus back cues but at this stage, he is probably not going to shove you out of the way to get the front side LOL
I>> apparently haven’t had enough caffeine yet because I’m feeling extra concrete in needing clarification this AM.
Ha! Caffeine is LIFE!!!!
>>Ha yes, I realized this too and put him up when I changed out the wing. I really struggle with him not wanting to come to me if he thinks he’s going to get put up while his sister works so it’s something I need to continue to work on. If I had a perfectly trained place behavior, that would be ideal.
He can hang out off to the side, as long as he is not using his Border Collie Superpowers to shape her line 🙂
>>His recall since your seminar and his small escape has been SO GOOD- like seriously comes skidding into the house now so I don’t want to do anything to damage that.. hahaha
Totally understandable. Also, the death threats that many of us gave him might have contributed? Maybe not but still, I have a few new grey hairs named after him 🙂 Glad he is being a very good boy 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>>Extension on a line: “Go on “- jump in extension, jump middle of the bar, look for obstacle directly ahead, take off in extension looking straight ahead and land in extension moving straight away.>>
Sounds good!
>>Get out: “Out, out, ” – jump in extension, jump near middle of the bar, look for obstacle laterally farther from me, moving diagonally/laterally away from me in extension.>>
Yes, this sounds good too 🙂 One thing to add to this from the dog’s perspective is the lead change – so if she is on her left lead, for example, she would move to her right lead. This is an easily seen behavior that you can mark/reward to help her understand the out cue.
>>Wrap verbals: “Left, left, left ” or “Right, right, right” – collect, shorten stride, add extra stride, head turn in direction of turn, jump bar near wing, stay close to wing on a line back toward me.>>
Also a good clear definition and I like that you have 2 separate verbals.
>>Soft turn: “Shhhh, shhh” collect, shorten stride softly, head turn, jump bar nearer to wing closest to me and/or in the direction I’m moving, look for next obstacle laterally (180, 270 or serp line). I use this to indicate a turn towards me either right or left. “Turn, turn” indicates a soft turn away from me, collect, head turn away from me to jump bar near far wing either right or left.>>
Makes sense – so shhhhh is the soft turn towards and turn is the soft turn away, but they are similar lines with ‘towards’ and ‘away’ being the difference, right?
>>Backside slice: “Back, back” collect, shorten stride, weight back, start head turn, pass close to far wing on the way to backside of jump, take jump near first 3rd to middle of the bar on a diagonal line (slice), landing close to wing nearest me, continues head turn, look for new line in direction I’m going.>>>
Nice! This is super specific! Exactly where she is over the bar will depend on the sequence itself but you covered that in your definition nicely.
>>Backside wrap: ” Zip, zip ” collect, shorten stride, weight back, start head turn, pass close to near wing on the way to backside of jump, take jump bar close to wing, head continues to turn, landing is near the wing, moving on a line in the direction I’m going.>>
Since zip zip means an entire circle wrap, theoretically she should keep finishing the circle even if it is not the direction you are going 🙂 When you are close to her in the handling, your running line will likely support it – but if this is distance work, your handling might not support it and she should finish the full wrap 🙂
>>Threadle slice: ” Heeere” collection to pass by wing to non obvious side of jump, head turn away from me toward bar, weight shift, take jump first 3rd to middle of the bar on a diagonal line (slice), landing near far wing head turn for new line in my direction.
Threadle wrap : “Digga, digga” extra collection, head turn away from me toward wing, weight shift back as dog goes around wing to non obvious side of jump, jumps bar near wing, continues head turn, landing near wing, looking for new line in my direction.>>Terrific! 2 cues for 2 entirely different behaviors, and you have really defined them nicely. You can clarify if you mean entry or exit wing (come around entry wing for the wrap, slice to exit wing for the slice) but that is also pretty much implied in the name of the move 🙂
Great job here!!! I love how extensively you have defined these!
TracyUnfortunately this software only allows for tiny things to be added – you can post a google doc link, or send it as an attachment to agilityuniversity@gmail.com. Sorry that it is a pain!!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>I’m not sure if it’s the line I was running or if it’s him, but it seems to me when he wraps right he does so from the right side of the bar and when it’s to the left he drifts out a little so he takes the jump on a little slice left. Was I causing this?>>
Yes, it made things interesting and was great feedback from him about what he is processing!!
One thing I notice on the handing in general is that you tend to converge in towards the takeoff spot, even on the wing, and it bends his line away from you. It is not as easy to see on the wing reps as it is to see on the reps with the jump.
He might be doing that in response to the pressure, and/or to buy himself some time to process the verbal in case it does not correspond to the physical cue.
That is what contributed t the error at :43 – you had a lot of speed and you pressured into the line, so he read it as rear cross even though the verbal said right wrap. You showed the same pressure on the next rep (:47) but you were earlier on your turn – so he started the same line (looking to his left, center of the bar) but adjusted last minute when your physical cue changed in time at :47 for him to turn right. Then note how he hesitated at landing to look at you to be sure he was correct.
The rest of the reps were correct but we can see him bending away based o your pressure – so I think he is waiting for physical cues and not processing the verbals as independently as we want them.So, let’s take the physical cues out to really focus on the verbals 🙂 Using a wing wrap to just the wing in front of the distraction jump, establish the verbals and criteria for them by NOT trying to handle or go fast – just move straight up the line to the outer edge of the wing, walking, as you say the verbal – no FC or post turn or anything other than facing straight and walking until he makes a decision about wrapping or not. Using the wing to start this will help that decision be easier 🙂
When you can run from the wing wrap to the wing wrap in front of the distraction jump, move it back to the 2 jump setup – but start form the wing wrap before it and walking straight up the line to the edge of the wrap wing, as you say the verbal.
Yes, this means that any FC or post turn will be late 🙂 but as soon as you see him driving into the collection, you can then do the FC and run and reward. Just moving forward will get him processing the verbals and not watching for body language as much. I would do a session or two of walking and maybe jogging before you add back more speed, just to be sure he is processing and be sure you are not handling too much LOL!!!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! Really nice work here! She is all grown up and looking wonderful!
The first video looks good –
Doing a FC versus post turn might not make a difference at all when we establish the criteria of the verbal (to get back around the wing as tightly as possible). So don’t worry about which handling move you do, but do be sure that your running line for the reward is not conflicting with the verbal at this stage. When she was wider on the post turns, it was happening more because you were running on a line that was cuing her wider when you were rewarding her. When you stayed on a tight exit line, she was fine with the post turns and quite tight on the wing 🙂When you replaced the wing with the jump on the 2nd video:
It was definitely a little harder for her, she had to think about NOT taking jump 2 even with you moving forward on those first couple of reps, and she did a GREAT job!! Especially on the right turns – you were accelerating forward and she was setting up great turns even when you didn’t do a FC. Left turns were indeed harder for her here too – I don’t think it was handling related but more likely that lefts are a little harder for her in general (totally normal to have a stronger side and a weaker side at this stage – do you remember which direction was stronger back in the puppy class? I might have to go look to find out :))But, when you added the wing wrap before the setup and dialed back your motion (1:29) her first left turn was LOVELY and your handling did not create it, she did it on her own. Super! We definitely want more of those.
When you added more motion on the next rep and at later at 2:08, she was not as good at getting a tight turn organized there. So as she is adding more of her own speed, keep your speed a little dialed back for now until she forms the habit of turning tight to the left.On the right turn reps, though, she was able to organize great turns regardless of your motion. That means we can add more speed/challenge to the right turns!
So – a couple of ideas for the next session:
For the left turns, tart off with the wing wrap to the wing wrap rather than the jump, moving slowly, for a couple of reps – that will help her get organized for the tight turns. You can probably add motion pretty quickly to that, and then bring the left wraps back o the wing-to-jump setup that you did at the end of the 2nd video. But keep your motion relatively slow and calm on the left wrap turns (you can largely face forward, don’t worry about trying to time post turns or FCs or anything because we don’t want her relying on handling cues).On the right wraps, which appear to be her strong side: you can add motion right away and challenge her by dong post turns not FCs, or juts facing forward (deliberately being late :))
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Things are going well here!!! Glad you had fun!
Fever did really well on his early reps – no bar in the distraction jump 🙂 When you added the bar to the jump behind the wing things changed (which is why we add the jump bar :))
So don’t worry about his wideness – he needs to sort out the distraction without relying on handling help, and he was doing that nicely! I think you were trying to improve your handling or go faster, but you don’t need to do that. You can just walk forward at this stag and let him sort it out, continuing the good reward placement back at you. Having the higher level reinforcement visible (FRIZZ!) makes for a wonderful challenge because frizzy or ball do NOT mean collect, they mean run run run so he has to override that to collect, to earn them.His two errors were backside errors. It is possible that you were blocking the line so he didn’t see the wing (I couldn’t see you on those) or that he had done enough reps of the same thing, so he was experimenting with different behaviors (that is pretty common – the dog offers different behavior if they do the same thing too many times in a row, even at a high rate of reinforcement). But still, dig dig is not a backside cue so it was not a rewardable behavior. If you were on the line/blocking the wing and he took the front side, I would probably have rewarded it. For now, stay off the line and then eventually we can add back the mom’s-in-the-way challenge 🙂
>>Callie was choosing to go through the wing here so I was hoping you could give some insight. It was only on the dig dig side and not the other. I mean I couldn’t ask for a tighter wrap. These jumps aren’t regulation so it’s probably not an issue we’d face.>>
I think she was just confused about what the exit of the wing actually was, so was wrapping the first thing she sees. I like that! Good girl! She was super tight LOL So to make sure she doesn’t get confused, tie a towel or something to it, so she sees it more as a solid wing, or use the solid wing that you put in there.
Only other other little detail – when Callie is training, especially as you add more motion – Don’t let Fever stand by the distraction jump 🙂 besides running into the wing and knocking it over LOL his BC pressure is going to affect her turns. We want her to be able to freely make mistakes without the BC eye helping keep her tight LOL!!!
Great job! I think you can go to the wing wrap before the setup, with you walking into it to see how they do.
TracyHi!
>>go- keep going on your line until I tell you something else- can be patch. te especially to a tunnel
left and right – soft turns not well proofed
wrap to left – lala and wrap right rara- need to change one after listening to video did use dig for both might go back to using dig plus one of the others
away a work in progress means turn away ie change legs
tunnel go to tunnel
through- tunnel threadle- work in progress
thread thread – jump threadle
out – means stay out on your line dont come into me use when layering or alot of horisontal distanceThese are all good! I agree that you should change one of the Lala or rara to something else so it sounds different.
next step – consider exactly what line you want the dogs to do over the jump and as they exit it and more importantly: what the dogs need to do on the takeoff side of the jump to make it happen. That is the criteria we will be training and looking for when rewarding.
>>hisshis is a serpentine – mixed not sure I need it as much any more
I agree, you might not need it – serpentines are now found in all different types of turns, so you can use your existing turn cues (for soft turns or wraps) for those and not have to worry about adding more. We work serpentines here next week 🙂
>>back – is go to the back side of the jump- in reality probably a wrap. think I need a separate one for backside slice although tends to happen naturally at moment without a verbal>>
Yes – especially with the size and speed of your dogs, I recommend a backside wrap verbal that is different than the backside slice verbal.
>>Traditionally I have also had a round round which was a 180 dont think I use that any more
I think you can use your existing verbals for those.
>>I dont have commands off the contact gear
I use the same verbals as much jump verbals on those, so I don’t need to teach and remember 100 verbals 🙂
Tracy
Good morning! Glad to see you here!!!
I agree – Fusion was really good here! The distraction jump was indeed a bit distracting 🙂 She looked directly at it on the 2nd rep at :06 but still wrapped (yay!) but then on the last rep, was much tighter and better with her turn. YAY!
How far away was the jump? You might be able to move it a little closer – it is hard to tell how far it was on video. If it was 2 meters, maybe move it in a tiny bit closer. If it was more than 2m, move it to 2m.
On her next session, add more challenge with you walking the whole time – you were sending here, so now instead of a send, start walking towards the wing as you say the verbals – keep walking forward towards it until she makes a decision, then reward 🙂
>> that my two verbals sound very alike – might have to change one.
Yes – totally agree that they sound too much alike! The “L” and “R” are harder to hear, so it sounds more like ah-ah in the heat of the moment. Definitely liking your idea to change on and keep the other.
>> Also I had to much body and need to work on Fusions understanding to go closer to wing.
She was doing a good job sorting it out, so now the next step it just to walk straight forward – no FC or anything until after she has made a decision.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
