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Hi there!
This was great, I love using the clicker board! He was great and the noise of the instant click really helped. You can use the bang of the teeter board in this situation as the click: when he backs up onto it and it slams, you can drop the reward in (rather than click then drop it in). The bang is looking good!!On the full teeter – I think having the MM out there is a good focal point (he was not a thing you at all, YAY!) and your clicks were good: as soon as his front feet hit you clicked it – he was TOTALLY on board with that and then was great! You were able to add more motion too ,and he as also excellent. YAY!! You can move the MM a little further away but for now, definitely leave it out there while the behavior solidifies. Great job!!
TracyHi!
>I am struggling to work out whether I should be working on calming him down ie using calming quiet behaviours or using a toy but then he gets aroused… Calm behaviours I am more likely to get shut down, exciting behaviours like toys get overarousal- pebndulum shiufts so quick and seems to bypass the moderate in the middle. Releasing him to run he tends to think he should do agility equipment and then gets pissed when he doesnt get rewarded or I am not participating.>>
It is not unusual for dogs to shift back and forth in states of arousal and skip that lovely optimal state. Because he seems to prefer to be moving and doesn’t prefer for us to try to calm him… I think we should focus on the pattern game with The treat toss – offered engagement – treat toss. That way he is moving but also doing calming work, so it might be a really nice balance!
..I havent been to one for many years- last one was with my old dog after a car accident when went as protest about disabled handlers in the ring. Thought was going to be permanently on crutches or a walking stick and had judges refusing to judge me at local trials as they didnt think disabled handlers was a good look for the sport. Got a ruling from ruling body just prior to nationals so went because I could…
That is amazing!!! Good for you!!!
>>. There are two shows before it and I will see if she is ready to go in the ring for them and how she goes as to whether I run her or not.
That is great – those 2 shows will really help!
T
This was also interesting!
Note on the first sit cue, she didn’t sit right away but she licked her lips, salivating: so the sit cue had value (Pavlov/conditioned response) but it took her a couple of reps to get good at it. She seems a little better on your left than on your right, so maybe she is more experienced on your left? That loooooong stand was funny! But good girl to figure it out 🙂While still moving slowly, I think you can add the frisbee to this (yes, I am evil hahaha). And without the frisbee, you can layer in more speed. I agree that latent learning will help her out in the next day or two, so you will be able to add more and more speed.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This was a really insightful session!! She was on fire LOL!! It was a bit head-exploding for her and challenging, but a good challenge!!It took her a minute to remember the around when she was really excited but the frisbee but she was figuring it out – love it! And yes, repeating the cue is great for this, til she offers a response.
So this gives us a double opportunity:
You can use this at home as a distraction, so she learns to process cues in high arousal.
And you can take the frisbee to classes or other distracting places, so she has a top value reward to help focus in harder environments.Great job here!!!
TracyHi!
Yes, part of the fun is figuring out which turns need to be controlled (like #11) and which don’t (like 5) and which need a little extra info (8-9). Going in deeper to the tunnel is to get momentum into the pinwheel so you can send and not have to worry about controlling it 🙂T
Hi!
This is great information,actually! On 3 obstacles in the 20” class, I will take a 1/10th of a second advantage 🙂 I think the common denominator for the speed was on t he lines where he could really turn tightly and chase you out of there: Jaakko exits and German/serp exits. Now, we want you to NOT be behind him at the tunnel, so I suggest working the Germans by leaving sooner – that way you can also pick up the advantage after the tunnel too! That tenth of a second on 2 leads to another tenth of a second further up the line – do that 3 or 4 times on course and you win by a mile!
So we can definitely keep looking at these options, especially on the bigger courses.Thanks for timing it!
TracyHi there!
>> I love the running lead-out idea and have already taken him down to the park and practiced that with him.
Perfect! Running on the lead out is a very European idea – and they get amazing speed from their dogs! Strike will love it 🙂
>>Run was at 1030 MDT so later than I would have liked. Typically I would like to practice about 0830-0900 MDT.
Is that to avoid the heat? I feel that pain – I live in SW Virginia, and at this time of year I need to get onto the field at sunrise or it is too hot! Eek!
On his run, looking for any questions he had to places to shave off time:
1-2-3: he had a little question 1-2, so his start angle might need to be straight. Be sure he can see jump 2 before taking off for 1, so he can jump right at it.
4-5-6: he sent to the tunnel really well but then you ended up too far ahead and he considered taking 14 at :10, based on your position. You can run deeper towards the tunnel with him (rather than send) and then drive out to send to 5, so he won’t think about 14 🙂
That will also make the 8-9 turn easier: by being ahead at 7, you pushed hard to 8 and he almost considered a backside there. If you go deeper to the tunnel, you can stay lateral to 8 and not need to run towards it – he seems to read turn cues REALLY well so I be you get a great turn without having to go near that 8 jump.
Nice turn at 11 and nice fast ending line! When you play with this again, try that nice tight turn at 11… then run it again with less of a tight turn. He is right at the size where the wider turn might be slower, so it would be fun to see it both ways and time it.
>>Otherwise I was happy with energy, listening, and execution on run.
Totally agree! He looked great 🙂 And your connection was lovely, which really helped him too 🙂
>> I should have stopped much sooner. Its something that I need to improve on. Stop on success, praise often, and watch for signs of stress. Love this dog and looking forward to success in the future.>>
There is MUCH to love about this dog! So yes, you can give yourself guidelines: run it once, then give him a break. Watch the video, walk it a few times for yourself, then maybe try it again. He doesn’t seem to like repeating things, so you can set it up as a one run session then he gets a break – you can run it without him a few times 🙂 then try him again. And if he runs it great, twice? No need to run it again 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! I think these went very nicely!!! Some thoughts:
Ruse’s Run:
Good blind in the opening! In fact, I think the whole opening went well until 14 when you lost connection and didn’t quite cue the tunnel at :26Looking at the Serp versus FC then BC to tunnel at 11-12: I think the FC -BC combo set better lines there! When you went back though there a 1:57 you did a FC to a FC – the 2nd FC was late because it is so hard to get into it quickly. The 2 blinds there were nice too so I timed the different options… the more controlled crosses there (FC-BC and FC-FC) were faster. I think the FC-BC combo was the fastest but I would need to get electronic timers to be totally sure 🙂
The BC-BC was fast but she was wider, so the extra yardage ended up costing time.Run 2 – the FC here on landing side of 3 set a wider line at 2 – the BC 2-3 controls the line better for her, she reads them brilliantly! Plus, the FC on landing side of 3 puts you in the way of her line to the weaves, so she has to go around you a little.
In the spots where she came off the line, like at 1:36: yes you were a little quiet 🙂 but also you were deceling and disconnecting so she came off the line. You can probably be quiet on that type of simple line but be sure you are very connected. You had nice lines on the next reps when you went through there – super connected and verbals too 🙂
Hero:
The BC in the opening at 2-3 would need to be more decelerated and more connected to help him understand how tightly to turn. For now, the FC definitely is tighter!Weaves looked good!!
Yes, he drifted out before the first tunnel (thinking about the straight tunnel perhaps) but then he was great on the 2nd rep (plus you stayed off the line more so there was a clearer line). I think having you stick closer to the correct tunnel with more brake arm and not as far ahead really made the difference – plus he is gaining experience and it is possible that he has never seen that configuration 🙂 The more experience he has, the easier it will be to handle that line.On the 11-12 line – he is still learning how to do the tight blinds (they will get tighter as he gets used to seeing them more on course) so I compared the serp to the FC-FC combo. I thought he read the serp really well! It was a shade slower than the FC-FC combo. The BCs will start to get faster too so we can always time it again when he is tighter on those like Ruse is. So for now – use the FCs there 🙂
And he was lovely on the ending line too!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! I am glad you got to play on the big courses!!! FUN!!!!
Opening line: lead out more so you can be further up the line and do the blind sooner on the first rep (start it wen she lands from 1) – it was a little late and she lifted her head a little, which costs time. You can also see the slight lateness on the 2nd rep – you started it after she took off so she lands from 2 then turns.
On the weave exit: don’t say yes 🙂 Just say tunnel! I think the yes might indicate that the dogs should come to us for rewards because so many of them do that when we “yes” a behavior on a line. On the 2nd rep, you turned before she exited and said tunnel: she nailed it.
Nice line to the backside before the teeter, nice teeter!You hustled to get the 2 blinds on the line after the straight tunnel – I think e can get you there one step soon to make it perfect: run with your arms close to your body like and Olympic sprinter and do the blinds with head turns (and opening shoulders) and verbals. You needed to be one or two steps further up the line to really make it super tight and fast, so I think arms closer to your body will get you there really easily. She read the line really nicely, so it is a matter of getting the 2nd blind to start sooner (:45) so you can do it before she takes off for the jump – your arms were out extended away from the body, which slows down your running a little.
At the end, on the jump before the tunnel: this is a spot where we would want to time the difference between options! You did it as a post turn and she was wide (at :52 you were facing the teeter as she took off so she was jumping pretty straight). It would be fun to compare the time difference there to a spin and also to slicing that jump to her right – yes, there might be more turns but there is a LOT of extension that direction!
And on the very end: at 1:01 you got a great position on the wrap jump and got a good decel – she was a little wide because the decel and post turn keeps you facing forward. So something to play with is decel, send and leave sooner, versus do a spin there. That would be great to help you figure out the fastest handling options – you can set up the pieces in your yard an just work those so we can compare.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
It is totally possible that Pose was trying to multi-task the footing and the line – the weather has been so weird! Normally this is a perfect time of year to be outdoors. Fingers crossed for some rain to help the footing!T
Hi! Sorry for the delay, being on the west coast is messing up my time schedule!
Overall these went well! Setup should be a little tight, it was more AKC-ish in the opening especially. Good work on this, he was finding his lines beautifully! You also had really good connection throughout. Hard to see he start line stuff but it looks like you were setting him up and rewarding him nicely.
Course 1:
The FC worked well in the opening!
The first tunnel might have been set a little inverted but you handling it like a backside, which made it work 🙂About the 8 and 15 jump after the tunnel there: the actual verbal depends – I would definitely use a GO to cue the extended exit of the tunnel (say it before he enters the tunnel) and then either a jump cue if it is basically on his line or a backside cue if you think he has a choice between front and back (not an out cue, if out means lead change away because there is no lead change here) but also be sure to keep moving.
On the 2nd rep, the FC (:52) at the beginning was too “open” (you didn’t finish the rotation) and not as clear as the 1st one – It was clearer to him when you finished your rotation quickly and drove to the new line.
3rd rep was a blind on the opening: that works too but finish it sooner so he sees the new connection just before he lands from the previous jump. I think the FC is the better choice based on how it turns your feet to 3 sooner than the BC.
4th rep at 1:56 – you were moving backwards through the FC – move forwards to 3. Those reps where you moved forward out of the FC looked great!
You tried a rear cross after that…. not as good as the FCs 🙂 The FC at 2:45 was definitely better and the FC at 3:36 was really good!!Nice serp to the tunnel at 3:03 and 3:52 but you can keep him on your right to send to the tunnel rather than do the blind to your on left and then have to rear cross it. Keeping him on your right is simpler 🙂
About the weaves – I agree, you can keep them more independent of the big course work to keep success rates high. You can work them in sequence, reward them – then carry on. Otherwise, you can replace them with a jump or tunnel so he doesn’t get into the habit of passing them.
Course 2 –
One thought about where to spin and where to not spin 🙂 I would put a spin in at 3 here, to tighten up the turn and move up the next line. I would not put a spin at 10 – you can send and leave, which will both cue the line and keep you in motion. Sends do not need to be stand still moments – give him one step to it then giddy up outta there 🙂Really nice line on the blind cross 6-7! You almost had it on the 2nd rep art :53 but just needed a little more connection as you ran up the line – more direct eye contact.
You turned to the inside (wrap) on the 8 jump – the faster line is to the outside (slice line) if there is room with the fence there – he did read the wrap nicely but it set up a harder line on the 9-10 line.
At :24 after the spin on the backside, it looks like you pushed in a little and that caused him to go to the backside. I thought you set a clearer line at 1:12 and he did the same thing, so a stronger name call might help to turn his head more? I don’t think he needs more than that.
At :32, we got a good visual of how dogs know the difference between a real reward and an oops reward when the handler doesn’t really feel it 🙂 When it is real, you get excited and keep moving. When it is a “oops something went wrong” you stop and hand it to him while talking but not really praising. Note the difference with a more “woohoo!” Reward at :59ish and he seemed really engaged!At 1:06 there was an awkward start line moment – he stood up and shook and you took off and ran, and things went a little sideways for a moment. So keep working the connection and release so there is a smooth transition there. He got back on track really nicely and then the ending looked great!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Lots of good work here with both of them, and something really big to think about too that might make handling sooooo much easier!!With Demi:
Baseline – lots of good work here!Here is a big thing though: I want to think about turns differently with her (and with Wilson too :)) You are trying to control all the turns, but I don’t think you need to! She is responsive. If you control all the turns, it all looks the same in terms of the physical cues, so she won’t really know what you want.
Think of the 3 different turns here as being large, medium, small. The 5-6 is a large turn, it is faster when it is wider, so send her with a lot of momentum and get outta there. No need to control it as long as she knows where she is going.
The 8-9 turn is medium – I bet she can read it with decel and that is all she needs. The big rotations were not needed and might be causing an issue with the other turns.
The 11 turn is small and tight, so that is there the tight turn verbal and the rotation is most usefulI thought 5-6 was good, it is not going to get tighter than that with a big dog without slowing her down. Yay! Question:
What does dig dig dig mean specifically? 5-6 is not a tight turn so if it means tight turn, save it for a tight turn spot. The out cue you used with Wilson might be more appropriate there.I don’t think you need the spin 8-9, especially with the big early outside arm there – that should be a cue for massive collection and 8-9 is a soft turn but not massive collection.
For example, you had too much rotation at :38 and she almost didn’t take it and plus it was too soon (facing her as she exited the tunnel. That much rotation should only be for wraps like at 11 – you did it there at :45 but never made connection to the new side and ran on a similar line… so she took the jump that was correct the other times she saw the same cue. Did you reward her? Good girl! Pay up! LOL!Going back to 8-9: Being backwards and fully rotated on the 8-9 turn is cuing a lot of collection but then pairing it with moderate extension… so she is thinking that rotated cue is a cue for a medium turn rather than a really tight turn.
Then you pulled her off the tunnel at 1:19 by running away from it. With both dogs, make sure you drive ot the tunnels to commit them, you have plenty of time to get where you want to go next 🙂
OK, more obsessing on the spin moves: Look at 1:28 and 1:32, and also 2:20 and 2:05: the cues and verbals look the same for very different turns. So for 8-9, just try a lateral send: send to 8 with a bit of decel then move laterally, calling her. Same the big rotation for 11, where you can also add a blind cross exit to send her to the tunnel on your left side.Wilson –
Same thoughts with him about not needing that extreme rotation for 8-9 AND 11. He started off by responding to the big rotation with collection at 8 but then stopped doing it because it didn’t mean collect – we don’t want to dilute the collection cue there.About the pinwheels – one thing that might help is if you deliberately move more into the line before the pinwheel so you have more momentum to the pinwheel to send him away.
Yep, at :19, you never really said tunnel (maybe quietly once and really early) and then you turned and left – he was correct, pay up. LOL!). Think of it differently: if you did not say tunnel there, and did the same body language cue – would you be mad or surprised if he carried on straight away to the tunnel out there? Yes, you would LOL! So be sure to cue the line to the tunnel and don’t just leave.
More obsessing on to spin or not to spin: At :45 he is jumping past the big rotation because it doesn’t mean collect, same at 1:08. So he can also read the 8-9 line on just a decel and lateral motion, definitely worth it to try and see!
And part of the fallout of using the spin where it is not needed is that when you really need it, you have to really exaggerate it: at 1:33 you end up rotating too soon and moving towards him to get the collection, so he doesn’t get a commitment cue and pulls off the jump. I think reserving the rotations for these types of tight turns only and not using them for the softer turns will make it all easier.Nice work here! Let me know what you think about the varying degrees of turns!
TracyGood morning!
It was fun to see the differences in the handling choices here! I slow the video down and time it from point to point, which gives me a good idea of which is faster. With my own videos, I use iMovie to get the side by side and overlay comparisons.
First run – you were definitely letting him rip here! He had a couple of tiny questions – call him sooner on the first tunnel (he was surprised by the tighter exit) and a little off balance in his jumping on 6 and 13 because he might not be used to being left in the dust by the momma haha!
It timed it overall and also timed the elements: letting him rip was faster. The pinwheel line was abut identical on the clock – but he had the jumping question at 6 which slowed him down, so when he gets used to that then he will be faster. The 8-9 soft turn was a little faster and the wider wrap turn was a couple of ticks faster (I time them in slow motion to be more accurate so it is hard to tell exactly how many 10th faster it was – but significant enough that it is good to know!!)Sequence 2 – the ‘let him rip’ turn at 4 appears to be a tiny bit faster then the collected turn on the original run, but that is the type of thing we would need to keep watching and timing to be super sure. The FC back to the tunnel was definitely faster than the collection to the spin and RC there. Just be patient on the send before it, so you can get commitment. You can still easily get the FC (or a Blind which would work there nicely too!). The FC was not toooooo much on his line – I do like to put tight turn cues right on the dog’s line so they drive right to the turn, as long as we get the heck off the line when the dog needs it (which you did, he did not seem to bubble out at all).
Really nice sequence 3! He totally remembered the forced front cross there and the rest looked really strong. You had your verbal and arm and a big connection to get a great turn out of the 8 tunnel even as you continued to move to position! I think the bar at 10 was a handling choice error: As you sent him at 1:30, you then did a post turn on the exit (facing the tunnel for a heartbeat) which cues a different (more extended) jumping effort than the line to 11. I think a rotation/spin after he passes you on the way to 11 will get the turn info sooner – he saw the line while he was jumping and hit the bar trying to adjust to the different turn.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I am caffeinated and not jet lagged, so I think I can explain it better now 🙂>>
“we want him to chase the line of motion even if you are not connected and even if he can’t see the next obstacle. Let me know if that makes sense.”
I’m not sure if I think that makes sense. Does it mean the same as “when in doubt, chase the line of motion”?
It seems like, if I put him on a line, then I want that line continued and not, necessarily, my current motion. Aren’t we doing a lot of that?>>What he was doing in the drifting spots was that he was not driving on the line, he was slowing down and staying wide til he saw an obstacle. The thing with those two spots is that the next obstacle is not immediately visible (the tunnel after the wrap and the 270) so we need him to run fast on the line you are putting him on, even though there are no visible obstacles at first. That is what I mean by chasing you motion: when you turned him left for the 270 over the 9 jump, we want him to trust that an obstacle will appear there soon and run hard that direction, rather than drift and look at you until the obstacle comes into view.
It is kind of like driving 75 on the interstate because you know that your exit is going to appear at some point… versus driving 45 with your blinker on, because you can’t yet see your exit.
Let me know if that makes more sense?
>>On sequence 2: “Small detail: try to send and leave on the tunnel #5 (post turn) rather than decel and spin.” That is an interesting observation. I didn’t so much “spin the tunnel” as “this seems like the easiest way to move from where I was to where I wanted to go”. I don’t tend to do post turns, so that may be why the spin felt natural. I agree and will try to keep that in mind. >>
Totally agree that it is easier fo runs to get out of there with a spin – but don’t let the dog see it LOL! So the post turn exit will work, or spinning later after he is in – but that might be slower than the post turn exit.
>>On the FC at 8 to 9: I was already facing him, so the FC is the least handling – it was practically done. To do the blind, I would have to rotate over 270 degrees, not something I do when I can avoid it. >>
It would get set up differently from the previous line – you were setting up the FC, so you got in there and faced him. For the blind, you would set it up differently: send to the pinwheel jump and then run away to the tunnel – connected first over your right shoulder then turning your head to your left shoulder for the blind. It should not feel like you are having to do a 270 rotation because yes, that would be too awkward.
>>On sequence 3: Gotcha. I will try to get the timing done tomorrow.
Yay! this will be fun!
Tracy
Ah, sorry! This is where I blame the internet elves – totally saw this and responded and posted, but clearly they ate it HA! Either that or it is sitting on my desktop at home and I never pushed “Submit” and since that is now a couple of thousand miles away…. I’ll start over LOL!
On this video, you can see her energy, it is really interesting! I think she went to a more settled energy for sure once she got the partner going. Movements relaxed, pace slowed down. If her normal thing is the big outrun, she might have been a little stressed, a little aroused, a little frantic at the very beginning? I don’t know her well enough to know for sure, but the energy was totally different in the first few moments than it was after a couple of reps of the pattern. It was great to see her energy change!
Were you saying ‘snackies’? LOL! Love it!
I do think she was looking at your hands at first, and then you shifted to your eyes. Thinking about this is in a more stimulating environment, I think that looking at your hands can still be considered engagement (because it is not engaging with the environment :)) So in the more challenging environments, you can start as you did here – continuing the pattern when she looks at your hands. Try to keep your hands still so there is no cookie movement to draw her attention (which is also not a bad thing, compared to the challenges of the environment). When you added the toy – i think it is also fine to look at the toy instead of eye contact at first, because it is still a form of engagement (and eye contact might be really hard – kind of like the dogs that stare at the first jump in agility on the lead out rather than look at the handler). With the idea of keeping the pattern going and high rate of reinforcement, in the trial environment you might not get to waiting for eye contact, you might spend several sessions letting her offer engagement by looking at you hands.About fighting for engagement – yes! I train that separately – partially at home, with zillions of rewards for random eye contact moments with no toys/treat/‘work’ present in the environment. And, I also play a game called “Find My Face” where we teach the dogs to seek out our face (I am sure you could have figured it out from the title hahahaha). I can dig up some videos of that if you would like to see.
You are in a trial environment this weekend, right? I am excited to hear how it goes!
Tracy
