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Hi!
This looked really strong too! It is a super strong skill for him and so it was a perfect one for adding the collar holding. Since he is not a big lover of collar holding, you can ask him to line up at your side without touching him, then hold the collar – he did really well here! And a cookie for the collar holding is good to add – and it would help get rid of the jumping/barking behavior when you line him up (yes, I am obsessed with it LOL!!!)This is really strong for him, so it is a relatively low priority in terms of training time – so you can come back to it at some point to add the harder angles. He really had to think about it when he was driving ahead – there were one or two times on both sides that he almost cut in to the front of the jump then fixed it and took the backside wrap – super!!!!
Nice work!!
TracyCoffee is life! This looks great – on your side of things, all the words (directionals, toy marker) were spot on and your line of motion was perfect. His response was perfect too. Yay! So now you can try to send to the wing from really far away (or move the start wing further away) so you can run harder through the serp – the goal is that as he exits the start wing, you are passing the exit wing of the serp jump (while saying all your words, of course LOL). That way he can see the challenge of go fast AND take the jump while turning, not just go fast/chase the momma 🙂
Let me know how it goes. Great job here!
TracyHi!
>>. Yes, Prism loves food too. Yes, I can give him a food reward for the *prompt* toy release. I used “get it” for available toy, “grr grr grr” for keep tugging, “out” for release, and “mine” for it is in my hand/not available
Perfect! You have all the good things going already. Yay!!
>>But I don’t think I was doing that in any of your videos-nervous about performance. 😉
I totally feel that! I remember one time at an in-person seminar with Jenny Damm from Sweden, I was just running like a crazy person and yelling my poor dog’s name for all the cues. She asked me if I had ANY verbals other than his name LOL! And of course I had a whole lot of directionals, I was just nervous about the big course in front of a big name LOL! Oops!
>>We typically tug for a while longer than we are doing on video (did not think you wanted to see the tugging) for this class. Maybe he is showing frustration that he is used to longer tug rewarding time?>>
You can totally leave in the tugging and in-between stuff – makes it easier to edit (you can just post the whole session LOL!) and sometimes we can see something that changes the session. I don’t mind if videos are longer because there is more in-between stuff, I love watching the dog training! It is entirely possible that he was asking why the tug session was so short?
On the video –
Really nice session here! I like how you started with food, built up motion, added the toy – he was lovely all the way through. I couldn’t really hear the soft turn verbal on the serp jump but that might be because you were running away from the camera. I heard the verbal for the start wing and then you can use the soft turn verbal as he exits the wing for the jump.He was GREAT about using his body to do the serp jump, even when you ran fast. So now you can move the start wing further away, so you can send further and run faster to see if you can get entirely past the serp jump, with him still taking it based on the verbal cue (a bit send to the start wing will help because he is so fast :))
>>(Funny how the “simple” soft soft turns got less training attention
ha! I used to basically ignore the soft turns but it turns out that those are the ones I use most on course! Soft turns and rear crosses don’t get nearly as much training time as wraps,threadles, backsides…. yet we use them all the time 🙂 So they are closer to the top of my list now 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! She is looking good here!!! It can be harder to get big dogs to ‘noodle’ their way through a tight turn, but she is really good at leading with her head here!
I think the questions she had were because of mechanics. The clean starts with her lined up at your side, facing the upright, were really great because that smoothly get her in motion and then you were able to show her the turn with your mechanics. On the reps where you had the clean starts with her at your side (:03 and :14 on your left side at the beginning, and then later at :50 and 1:00 with her on your right side), she was great and the turns looked awesome.
On the reps where you tried to turn her when she was coming towards you or facing you (dirty starts LOL like at :19, and :26), the mechanics were unclear so she was unsure about what to do. So, stay clean!
My only other suggestion is to delay the click a tiny bit – it sounded like the click was coming as she was coming towards the turn hand. So, delay it until after you have turned her away, then click and fling the cookie.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>If you want the 1000 and one ways to screw up this exercise I probably have live footage!!!
Ha! Well, this video looked perfect which means the screw ups never happened LOL!!
>>Here is footage with what I believe to be the correct position of the wing jump and the correct verbals
yes – perfect everything. Yay! Verbals, motion, reinforcement – it all looked great 🙂 One thing I noticed was that she was jumping super close to the exit wing on the serpentine. It looks like the bar was either on the ground or super low, which was correct. Since she was jumping so close to the exit wing, let’s give her an 8″ bar for this game. She has seen 8″ bars regularly already, yes? Basically, we are saying to her that is it not just a run-fast game and she will need to organize her jumping effort. I don’t think it will be a problem at all, I just want her to see it because I think she has no idea that this is also a jumping game LOL!!
And if she is fine on 8″ bars – move the start wing further away so there is more motion AND you can challenge her more to see if she can still take the jump even when you are past it!
>>Oh and her threadles are super nice
HA!!! Remember that setup for when we add threadles soon LOL!!!!
Great job 🙂
TracyThank you for posting this!!! The sessions with questions from the dog are always the best ones to watch 🙂
Looking at what she was doing at the turn jump, he was doing better than you thought – I think her question was more about whether she should take the distraction jump or not 🙂 After all, we have done a whole lot of “don’t take the distraction jump”.
Looking at her collection before the turn jump she was wicked tight on the wrap cue at :02 and had just the right amount of collection for the left turn at :10 and :18.And on the wrap, she came around the wing REALLY tightly. Yay! And on the soft turns, she was (correctly) wider at :11 and :19. So I think she was all like “I know this is the soft turn not the wrap, but am I supposed to take the other jump?”
>>If we stopped for a bit and came back and started with a soft turn she was in soft turn mode and won’t wrap
Do you mean she would turn left AND take the second jump, even if you cued the wrap?
She might have been guessing a bit because we stripped out too much of the handling. Sorry, Charm!!!
So on the next session, we can answer those questions for her by adding a bit of handling back *after* she makes a correct decision on the takeoff side of the turn jump:for the wraps, do what you did here by just moving forward until you see the tight collection stride on the takeoff side of the turn jump: then do a FC and run away so she chases you for the reward. Basically, it is a late FC as a way to say “yes, you are correct to set up that tight turn” 🙂
For the soft turns when you see her approach the turn jump and begin the turn, you can also turn and move to the 2nd jump to show her that yes, she is allowed to take it 🙂Let me know what you think and how she does!
TracyAha! That would make sense why you haven’t done it! It is a great opportunity to build love for!
Cue him to come to your side, then give a cookie.
Slip a finger under his collar, give another cookie
Start the verbals, let go of the collar.So there will be a TON of reinforcement built into the collar holding – cookies and the game starting. If it is easier to start this with a body harness, that is great too (as long as it is not one of the front clip harnesses). Building the collar love will help in training scenarios a whole lot!
T
Good morning!
>> This does not mean anything if I’m pushing her off the RC line.
That might not be a verbal issue – if I am in the way, I don’t want the dog to risk going through me. It is probably good for safety reasons that she does not cut in front of you if you are pushing into her line enough to make it seem like a backside instead of a rear cross. I have 4 basic rules in agility:
– don’t go behind me without permission
– don’t flick away from me without permission
– don’t cut in front of me without permission
– don’t bite me 🙂Now, for the first 3, it is possible that we accidentally give permission – the going behind me might be a disconnection error on my part. The flick away (which is probably what happens when she ends up on the backside) is an error of too much pressure on the line – the handler is on the line that the dog needs to be on. I reward the dogs for most of those. And if the dog chooses to not cut in front of me? Extra rewards for saving my life LOL! The cutting in front of the handler can be dangerous!
I am fine if my dog chooses to not cut me off, because I might trip on a larger dog or kick one of the smalls. So if the error is created by her avoiding a collision in handling? Alrighty then, 1 point for the dog, no points for the handler 🙂 If the handling line did not present a backside and the handler is NOT blocking the line, but she pings away with just a tiny bit of pressure… then that is something we work on in a week or two here (turning away from us with the verbal and not going to the backside to turn towards us). You can see the beginnings of it in the backside slice game(but no rear crosses there yet).
On the video – she is doing really well!
Looking at the 2 jump setup with the wraps:
Your distraction jump might be a little too far away form the turn jump – the jumps should be as close together as they were when you had the wing in front of the jump for the soft turns, or even a bit closer (4 or 5 feet apart).
You can throw a little sooner on the Go reps so she doesn’t look back at you.
And now with the wraps – the next step is to use less handling – face forward the whole time, the same way you did with the go reps, so she is processing the verbal and not relying on handling cues of decel or rotation. You can turn and run and reward after you see the collection for the wrap.Have you done week 1 game 3 exit line criteria yet? That will be very useful and also it will lead into week 2 game 3 as well.
>>I think we can ramp up the soft turns more?
Yes, you totally can, she looked great here! the first ramp up will be more motion: You can add the wing wrap before the right/left wing, so both of you are moving more. As with the wraps, just keep moving forward slowly until after she makes a decision. On these reps, you were sending and stopping, which informs her about the turn based on the change of motion. Keep moving forward til after she makes a decision, so the verbal can really override the motion 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
The first video looked really strong – your reward placement was consistently spot on, and you remembered to be moving the whole time. Yay! the one thing I would add is the timing of when you give the verbal cue: you were holding her and saying “ready” but then let go and gave the backside cue at the same time. So in this first session, she was reading the setup more than she was processing the verbal. It was not a problem here but that made the 2nd session harder (see below). So, the only change is to hold her, say your push verbal 3 or 4 times and THEN let go 🙂 that way the new cue (backside verbal) comes distinctly before the existing cue (motion) – and she will learn it more independently because the backside verbal will then predict what happens on the jump. (motion and line support that in the beginning stages).So add that in (saying the backside verbal several times before letting go of her) and if she is great with that even when lined up to the center of the bar with you moving, then you can add in game 3 with the front side verbals again and with you repeating the verbal several times before you let go of her.
On the 2nd video – because motion and the verbal were simultaneous, she was guessing on some of the reps, based on your line up position or what happened on the previous rep. I think holding her and starting the verbal before letting go will help her process – since she is lined up in basically the same spot each time, hearing the verbal first before things get moving will help her predict the line and reward placement – and then you will see her get it right more and more. you can see the guesswork at the end in particular – I don’t think her brain was tired, I think there was no supporting info so she guessed as she started moving, based on what happened on the motion and reward last rep.
She did really well well overall and I think holding her until after she has heard the verbal 3 or 4 times will make all the difference 🙂Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> Well, I feel like a wally now for not figuring that out myself! Poor girl was slipping, and I didn’t even notice! – I’m glad you think that it’s something she’ll adapt to, but I hope she doesn’t get hurt. I’ve done the same thing with Matrix -not noticed when he’s slipping – but I did see it in video – not so with Yowza 🙁>>
You are not a wally LOL!! I don’t even know what a wally is, but I am going to totally use that word from now on LOL!!!! It was easier to see what she was doing wen I put the video on a bigger screen and slowed it down. She was trying so hard to be fast and tight, but her hind end didn’t have as much grip there so she was slipping. She recovered SO quickly, which might be why it was harder to see. Normally, dogs that slip also land on their heads or shoulders, but she was very quick to re-balance.
The first part of the discrimination video looked great! She seems a bit stronger on the left turns – an so when you added more motion to the right, I can see why it wouldbe harder (plus the a-frame/tunnel that was right there added some pressure on that right turn line too – you can try it without that big visual and see how she does)). I would have rewarded her at :49 when she turned right but didn’t take the first jump – it was a better approximation than going straight! She did get it correctly after that. And when you switched to the left with more motion – she was awesome!
So I think the left turns and right turns on this game will progress at different rates:
– you can add more motion on the left turns. and each time you add challenge, work the left turns first so she can process the new speed on her easier side
– keep the right turns with less motion, for now, and do them 2nd in the session after you’ve worked the challenge with the right turns.>>still maybe a little loud?
I think you had a really distinct difference between the verbals here and it was really nice!!
>> Do you suggest raising the jump height at any point for this exercise?
We discuss this more in week 5 – but for now, the bars can stay low. We don’t want to raise the bars til the dogs have the concepts fully grasped while we are able to move fast. That way we don’t do a lot of reps on a full height bar – the concepts they learn on the low bar transfer easily to full height.
The serps looked great!!! Yay! 3 suggestions for the next session:
– you had the verbal going really well for the start wing, so now you can add the verbal for the serp jump: right for the start wing means left for the serp jump, and vice versa
– she is really speedy, so you can have the start wing further away so you can have more time to get past the serp jump – you can definitely use that advantage to add more motion!
– your placement of reward was really good! But she was splatting herself a little to stop and get it. So to save her body, two options: you can either use a toy that she can scoop up and keep moving with (like one of the big hollee rollers) or you can present the toy from your hand and keep moving til she gets it (flyball-style, where the dog chases the toy as we keep moving).Great job! Onwards to the backsides!
Tracy
Good morning!
Great job with the verbals on the serps! You had the correct ones (mostly haha) and they were said in a way that makes them sound very different from the other verbals. Yay! You can say them repeatedly (you did have some reps where you were saying them twice) as long as you retain that same rhythm/style of delivery as you move faster and faster.Next step… jogging! Then running! Wheeee!
>>I also must confess, I have forgotten what my reward maker is for dropping the toy. I think it’s get it but I mostly do strike are whoosh and have been trying so hard to make those happen that I’ve neglected this one.
No worries, dogs are incredibly forgiving! I think the top priority is to get the reward to the dog, which you were doing. They forgive us if the word is wrong, thankfully LOL!
>>All of these words are really like juggling chainsaws that are on fire
Yep! It was all good til you had to have the verbal where the dog is turning away, so it probably feels a whole lot less natural. Plus I think many of us are very used to giving wrap or backside verbals. Directionals on a serpentine feel WEIRD when you start them, right? We mostly relied on running and yelling the dog’s name in the past LOL!
Backsides:
>>My only bobble was trying to get him to turn around while holding his collar. He wasn’t having it >>
Ha! So far, just about everyone is having this problem. The lineup mechanics should be reversed from how you started here: ask him to line up at your side (or use a cookie lure, nothing wrong with that!). And when he is at your side and in the right spot – then take the collar (another cookie for that is happy-making for the dog). I have found that dogs in general really do not like it when we try to move their bodies while holding the collars (we see lots of opposition reflex and stress when people do that), so you can get the position without holding him – reward – then take the collar. That moment of taking the collar right before we start the verbals becomes VERY fun because it predicts the game is about to start. If you take the collar as a way to move him into position, it becomes a lot less fun.
When you had him line up at :10 through your legs, then took his collar, much better! But give him a cookie for allowing that.
One more detail about the collar holding: hold the collar til you have said the verbal at least 3 times. You had a good ready verbal while holding… but let go at the same time as the directional. You should be saying ‘pass pass pass’ while still holding rather than after letting go so the new cue “pass” can predict the old cue (motion) to help solidify the verbal.On the next session, you can add in starting further back from the jump especially on step 3 so you can be moving the whole time, before he makes a decision on the jump. You were standing still on the left/right/go reps and we don’t want him to think this is about motion versus lack of motion. Plus, on the backside reps, if you are further back and moving, the verbal will really have to override your line of motion and that is exactly what we want 🙂
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
>>This was hard for him. His little brain exploded!! >>
Yes, it is a super challenging skill because it is all about the verbal and the one single jump doesn’t really help him out like some of the other setups did. With that in mind – I think you skipped to step 3 quickly but without the complete understanding of steps 1 and 2 with motion, so he was guessing a lot. And now that I have had the extra cup of coffee, imma bug you about mechanics on this one too, both for being sure steps 1 and 2 are really strong and not being too stationary: you should be in motion the whole time on every rep.
Ideally, before adding the front side challenges, you are able to get him reliably processing the backside slice cue while you are moving – first with him facing the the outer edge of the entry wing, and then gradually having worked your way over to both of you facing the center of the bar with a lot of motion (walk-jog-run).
On this session, you were center of the bar for the reps with both of you facing the center and while you did have motion, it was at the same time as the verbal or after he had made a choice about the jump. We want the verbal to come first and before he moves, so it can predict your motion and so you are not accidentally moving at the same time as starting the verbal. If it is simultaneous, he is less likely to process the verbal and more likely to go with handling. The verbals for backsides in particular are almost always mid-course when you are already in motion, which is why we add the motion immediately here so he can process them independently of what your physical cue is doing.
To be more precise with the mechanics, start by holding his collar so you can be saying the word a few times, then let go and when you let go, both of you move. That holding-the-collar moment as you say the verbal is probably the most critical element of getting the independence. Start with him lined up on a straight line to the entry wing so you don’t help at all with handling (no steps to the backside to get true independence). The permission to move is when you let go of him (which also allows you to start the verbal before letting go – by starting without holding him, he is not learning to override the motion with the verbal (because you are stationary or simultaneous)So be obsessively systematic about it, lots of coffee and wine needed (although not simultaneously haha) – he should be lined up to the entry edge of the backside wing (he was mostly center of the bar here with you stationary, which is more of a ‘testing’ position for front side cues because center of the bar reads as backside pressure as a physical cue, which is why the Go was really challenging for him) You can see that he was leaning away from you on those, which is why he chose the backside so much when you were cuing the front side.
Let me know if that makes sense! You will find Step 3 (front versus back) relatively easy if steps 1 and 2 are pretty fluent. That is why Voodoo was demo dog for the step 3 game – steps 1 and 2 were not fluent yet with CB at the time I needed to get it on video.
And a few ideas about keeping the rate of reinforcement high:
And if he has errors, remember the 2 error rule is for the whole session, not 2 in a row 🙂 so once you hit the 2 errors, dial the whole session back to pump up the rate of success which will help build the fluency (or abort mission and phone a friend/post the video LOL!!)And since we are obsessing, one more detail to obsess on – I agree with you that it is a top priority to eliminate the rehearsal of jumping up and barking at you. he is on the right path for that, and I think it will make a MASSIVE difference on course too when arousal is even higher! He does the barking/leaping after errors here – a lot of rehearsal of the jumping up and barking. I think because it is a training session and you are using a toy, you are a bit desensitized to it (you are thinking about the next rep, probably) but it is definitely something that we don’t want on course.
So, if he has an error: just immediately call him back to your side with a reset cookie. It can be a very informal cue such as “cmere!” and show him the cookie in your hand, delivering it when he arrives in position at your side. Using the reset cookies will eliminate the rehearsal of the jumping/barking (which is an arousal/frustration behavior) and they won’t build the incorrect response to the verbal on the jump – it is really cool how a reset cookie gets us exactly what we want! The dogs know that the response was incorrect (based on the lack marker and lack of thrown reinforcement and the recall to reset for a cookie) but they don’t get frustrated and are happy to line up and try again.
And eliminating the rehearsal in training will help eliminate it on course!And no need for an oopsie marker or any discussion of what went wrong – he knows that it was not correct and the oopsie markers are frustrating. So a simple reset cookie delivers all that info without the jumping/barking – the reset cookies are more like “hey, nice effort, have an Oreo, let’s try again”.
I am quite sure that the reset cookies are why CB doesn’t try to bite me on course. Whippety dogs are known to be a bit, um, bitey when frustrated, so I have been using reset cookies all along. He makes mistakes but can stay level in his arousal without jumping barking or biting. Wish I had done that with Voodoo when he was young, because he was very bitey/barky as a youngster.
Let me know what you think! This game in particular is heavy on the mechanics but the finished product will be amazing!!!
TracyGood morning!
Yes, he did really well! But…
Either I need more coffee, or it is the ‘Rona, or these are backwards and they are front crosses on the 180, not serps – on the serps, he should be jumping towards you on the purple jump, not away from you.
I think what made it backwards was the start position – by starting him in a sit, he was coming towards you around the red wing and he should be moving away from you on a send.So for this game, he starts next to you – you start on the wing of the purple jump, facing the house and the red wing. Your left hip is on the purple wing, he is on your right side so you are between him and the purple jump. You send him to the red wing so he is turning to his left around it (towards that white wing sitting on the left side of the computer screen). That way he will be jumping towards you on the purple jump (with a right verbal) and not away from you. For the serps, the jump is in between you and the dog and on these FCs, he was between you and the jump.
Then flip it when you change sides – instead of a stay in front of the red jump and then a FC to the purple, he should be next to you on your left side – you are facing the house, right hip on the purple wing. Send him to the red wing from your left side with a right verbal so he is moving away from you (towards the teeter) and then stay on landing side of the purple jump with a left verbal so he is coming towards you over the purple jump.
I had another cup of coffee to be sure and yes, these were really nice FCs and the verbals matched perfectly… but they weren’t serpy LOL!!! Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Yes, super nice! He did really well here! One thing to get used to is starting with your hand on his collar and saying the verbal a few times before letting go and moving (more on that below LOL!) so that you can start the verbal before the motion – that strengthens the verbal because the ‘new’ cue (verbal) predicts the ‘old’ cue (motion) and then he will be able to produce behavior on just the verbal, regardless of what the motion is doing. If you move and say it at the same time… he is likely just processing the motion and not the verbal independently.
You can start the next session on this one further back from the wing so you can have more motion, and line him up on harder angles! Yay! Great job!
Tracy
